GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Guns And Related Accessories Review Gates => Topic started by: Don.M on October 02, 2020, 07:22:55 AM
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I watch a lot of pesting videos and I've noticed that some of these guys (from the rangefinder readings on the screen) are using a 'dead on' hold at ranges from 8 yards out to 50 or so yards. With my Benji .22, I'm sighted at 20 yards and at about 10 yards I have to hold at least 2" low or I'm just "Buzzing the Tower" so to speak.
Does my rifle have that much of a rainbow trajectory, or are their rifles shooting that flat? Could they be making scope adjustments off camera or am I 'missing' something else?
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Don, I’d imagine most of those guys are turret clickers. I don’t, I typically use holdover. But I also zero my rifles at 30 meters. 10-35, almost 40 meters is pretty close with not much holdover/under.
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They're likely adjusting the turrets off camera as you suspect. Below is a link to some detailed info about scope set-up. As you have the capability to adjust the speed(and trajectory)with your Benji, you may want to try this. Sight the gun in at 10 yards using 4 or 5 pumps. Move the target out to 20 yards and see where your impact is. At this point you can add or subtract a pump to change POI up or down as necessary. Continue out to 35-40 yards. You can record your findings and keep them handy when out in the field. Years ago I found this method very effective with my Sheridan and a 4X fixed scope. Good luck!
pv
OOPS! Forgot link...http://www.fekete-moro.hu/bfta-setup-manual/index-en.php#1 (http://www.fekete-moro.hu/bfta-setup-manual/index-en.php#1)
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If you notice on my scope I have "dope" out to 60 yards every five yards I have the elevation and windage to dial my scope. This is a laminated piece of cardstock I tape around the scope with the pellets that I have with me. Works for me. Others may do it differently. It is also basically in a circle so that I could cut it out and stick it in my scope cover. I just prefer it wrapped around the scope because I tend to flip the cover all the way open so I can easily look over the scope with my right eye ::).
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I emailed Jonny (Air Rifle Pest Control) and he said he's using a scope/rangefinder combo with a ballistics program in it, that when he hits the rangefinder, it automatically adjusts his POI for that range.
I'm using the ATN ABL Rangefinder which - when coupled with the ATN 4k Pro (with the Ballistic Calculator configured)
I have no idea what these are, never heard of them, But from the sound of it they are way out of my price range. Especially for a casual plinker. For someone "In the business" as a pest eliminator, it makes sense though.
I'm going to try the "5 pump/10 yard" method with my Benji. 5 pumps should be enough for chippers @ 10 yards with the .22, that's what my dad uses in his .20 Sheridan and he does OK-no wounding & losing, just straight out DRT.
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I watch a lot of pesting videos and I've noticed that some of these guys (from the rangefinder readings on the screen) are using a 'dead on' hold at ranges from 8 yards out to 50 or so yards. With my Benji .22, I'm sighted at 20 yards and at about 10 yards I have to hold at least 2" low or I'm just "Buzzing the Tower" so to speak.
Does my rifle have that much of a rainbow trajectory, or are their rifles shooting that flat? Could they be making scope adjustments off camera or am I 'missing' something else?
At the field target course there are those that scope rangefind with a high scope power setting, consult their "dope sheet" which tells them how many "clicks" to adjust for a "dead on hold". LOL....I've even been at a couple matches where a "clicker" lost track of his turret rotations and was one whole turn off after clicking.
There are others that only use "holdover aiming", mostly hunter class shooters where the rules prohibit "clicking on" and they need to determine the amount of "hold over (or under)" based on the distance to the target.
For my springers the pellet exits the muzzle about 1 3/4" under the scope sight line so the gun is actually "shooting at an up angle" for the pellet to land on the aim point at my 30 yard zero. This means that the pellet rise point of impact at 10 yards will be about 1/2" below the point of aim. The pellet will continue rising to the apex of the pellet trajectory before it starts falling past the zero distance due to gravity.
Here is a target I shot a few years ago to determine the trajectory of a pellet from my .177 Beeman R9 from 10 yards to 50 yards using a 30 yard zero...........
(https://i.imgur.com/a7azSngl.jpg)
Notice that the pellet was about 3/8" low at 10 yards, hit the "first zero" at 17 yards, flew about 1/4" above the line of sight at 25 yards, then fell down to my 30 yard zero and at 50 yards the point of impact was 1 1/2" low.
If I know the distance to the target I use the marks on my scope reticle (mil dots work well) as aiming points for various "sharp focus distances".
Most shooters use actual yards marked on their AO or side wheel but I prefer using symbols so there isn't a need to consult a dope sheet...........
(https://i.imgur.com/1PlpIEHl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/urnuA18l.jpg)
Here are a few examples of scope side wheels and turrets marked in yards used with "turret clicking"...........
(https://i.imgur.com/4bisuixl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/KlJlN1pl.jpg)
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The pro's got the gimmick' s. To get the edge
Maybe I'm not talking out of place here with this.
For backyard plinking at different ranges with out big expense a mildot with A.O adjustment should serve well.
https://hammersbinoculars.stores.yahoo.net/airrisc3wion.html
I use to wiff off scopes with out A.O/ parelex/side adjustment till I got a decent mildot with it. . now I just can't see going back to a standard scope . With my poor old eyes and the dots for hold over/under my hits improved a lot over varied distances
I do prefer the side over front but that's extra $ and read specs of the mildot that's fits a air gun (dot spacings). And bdc scopes dot look spaced for air gun more for like for powder burners
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At the field target course there are those that scope rangefind with a high scope power setting, consult their "dope sheet" which tells them how many "clicks" to adjust for a "dead on hold". LOL....I've even been at a couple matches where a "clicker" lost track of his turret rotations and was one whole turn off after clicking.
It is possible to get a scope with turrets that have mil dot readings and if chosen correctly, enough adjustment in one rotation to allow for say, sixty yard adjustment. In other words, I don't count clicks, I just look at the number on the turret which tells me what I have it set for and know that I'm in proper adjustment. Since my turret and reticle are both in mil dots, and that is what my dope is in, I don't need to do any math if I have to make an adjustment after a shot, hold off for wind, or a quick shot.
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About rangefinder ,. 90% target shooting is known range. 15m 50 yds ect. Squirrel hunting it's quick point and shoot and you should have a general idea the difference between what 50 yards is to 20 yards and a natural point and shoot reflex .
If competition nitty gritty your pretty much what's said above to gain any edge and must do.
I write down my zero session and put it back n the box for future reference if needed
Like that scope I linked . It's nothing fancy but got the 2 features with the he mildot and A.0 gurenteed air gun use it's maybe a good starting point to see how what s said above with out a big scope expense . Then when you upgrade you know if a scopes like there's above is worth it or keep using that one cause it's doing all you need in you plinking range. I just think it a fair starting my point scope without digging in your billfold (opinion)
Good luck.
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For backyard plinking at different ranges with out big expense a mildot with A.O adjustment should serve well.
https://hammersbinoculars.stores.yahoo.net/airrisc3wion.html
I was recently given a Discovery VT-Z 4-16x44 scope with MIL Dots. I have it zeroed @ 20 yards, but haven't figured out how to use the MIL Dots yet.
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Ok got'cha. I was looking at that scope but they told me in a email about it not recommended for air guns. Well springers . So I passed .
If I did not swap things out and I used it for a PCP or co2 full time I would of liked to of tryed it. It's a nice little package for the money I thought.
Sorry to butt in , them guys above looks to be giving good tips.
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Ok got'cha. I was looking at that scope but they told me in a email about it not recommended for air guns. Well springers . So I passed .
If I did not swap things out and I used it for a PCP or co2 full time I would of liked to of tryed it. It's a nice little package for the money I thought.
Sorry to butt in , them guys above looks to be giving good tips.
I don't look at it as you butting in, you're just giving me other suggestions to my problem. I WAS using a Thompson/Center muzzle loader scope, until it was suggested I try the Discovery instead and I'm glad I did. It's working out well, I just need to shoot A LOT more and get familiar with the MIL dots.
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Like me I never thought of them and found a sail on a 3-12 mil dot side focus , matter of fact it's a athlon Talos. Now I don't see going back to a standard scope unless it's a hand me down on a beater gun . 20 yrd ,50, 35 whatever it a good clear shot the dot spacing is just right over and under
Once you get accustomed to it ,it's the berries. I don't have a side wheel ,but the way I bump things it would just get broke or knocked around. Ya I'm sold on these types of scopes. Eye relieve is the only thing I wish was better ,but who don't?
I don't see you not enjoying it , so enjoy!
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Like me I never thought of them and found a sail on a 3-12 mil dot side focus , matter of fact it's a athlon Talos. Now I don't see going back to a standard scope unless it's a hand me down on a beater gun . 20 yrd ,50, 35 whatever it a good clear shot the dot spacing is just right over and under
Once you get accustomed to it ,it's the berries. I don't have a side wheel ,but the way I bump things it would just get broke or knocked around. Ya I'm sold on these types of scopes. Eye relieve is the only thing I wish was better ,but who don't?
I don't see you not enjoying it , so enjoy!
Kinda interesting how we get used to a certain reticle and couldn't imagine changing. When I first started shooting springers I only used scopes with a standard duplex reticle for a few years. Matter of fact, the duplex reticle of my Bushnell Elite 4200 were shot using holdover aiming. After using "mil dot reticle scope" for a while I couldn't imagine reverting back to a plain ole duplex reticle.
Here is the duplex reticle style of my Bushnell Elite 4200 and how it was used for holdover aiming..........
(https://i.imgur.com/ch7WIBAl.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/uQzETbdl.jpg)
Here is the AMX reticle of my current Hawke Compact scope which gives more "holdover points"...........
(https://i.imgur.com/LxwFXyEl.jpg)
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I could see the hash's between the dots if the rectical ain't coming off as to busy. There's always that shot that comes up where you would have to split between the dots the hash would help in a steadyer hold . I haven't got that high end yet.
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I could see the hash's between the dots if the rectical ain't coming off as to busy. There's always that shot that comes up where you would have to split between the dots the hash would help in a steadyer hold . I haven't got that high end yet.
There is some truth to what you mention because I actually prefer a mil dot reticle and have no trouble "splitting the hold" between two dots...............
(https://i.imgur.com/lc3P2JHl.png)
Hawke also has a reticle called "Half-Mil-Dot-Tactical-10X that has marks half way between the dots like this.......
(https://i.imgur.com/DNVza5tl.jpg)
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First thing I did when I replace the included scope on my Beeman dual cal. was buy a Center Point mildot scope @ Wmart on sale of coarse ;) Never looked back, now I do use some of the duplex free scopes on my closer range guns, hey can't waste a free bee, but when needing reliable POA to POI results give me something to aim with ;)
BTW that A_Moron seems to have a great idea of what is going on ;) ;D And I basically go about things as nced does also :D
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When setting up a BDC reticle dope sheet remember that the BDC values change with magnification. UNLESS it's a first focal plane scope which are expensive and not often seen on AGs. IMO when shooting critters at varied ranges practice is most important. A close second is knowing what your holdover or hold under is in actual inches at set ranges. Since BDC and MilDot values change with magnification its better adjust your scope (once) for the most practical Point Blank Range and use the size of the target to estimate your holdover or under. All this talk of rangefinders and dialing turrets is all well in good if you are shooting a fixed target. Unfortunately critters are seldom fixed and have a habit of showing up quickly taking off on wing or foot even quicker. The best way to dispatch them is being familiar with the area and your weapon. If you hunt the same area set up paper targets at common perches like trees, fence posts and gardens aim dead center at a small 1" target and make note of the drop at that location. Then set others up at other common distances and do the same. Also it's imperative to have already picked out your best pellet because changing pellets will change all your data. Using mildots and BDC reticles is fine but if your holdover is too great to judge by eye your distance is probably to great for a clean kill.
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When setting up a BDC reticle dope sheet remember that the BDC values change with magnification. UNLESS it's a first focal plane scope which are expensive and not often seen on AGs. IMO"
Funny but maybe I'm wrong. When I use the scope with the parellx side focus. That went away. If you were to change the power you just adj the parellx unlike a standered scope where that happens .
I'll retest that today to make sure I'm not mistaking. Seemed like that was one of the first things I noticed that changing power did not change point of impact.
Also mine is a sfp .
I did see a mildot with normal dots and baby dots between then like nced's hashs but it was out of my price range. Looked like a bit less clutter .
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They're likely adjusting the turrets off camera as you suspect. Below is a link to some detailed info about scope set-up. As you have the capability to adjust the speed(and trajectory)with your Benji, you may want to try this. Sight the gun in at 10 yards using 4 or 5 pumps. Move the target out to 20 yards and see where your impact is. At this point you can add or subtract a pump to change POI up or down as necessary. Continue out to 35-40 yards. You can record your findings and keep them handy when out in the field. Years ago I found this method very effective with my Sheridan and a 4X fixed scope. Good luck!
pv
OOPS! Forgot link...http://www.fekete-moro.hu/bfta-setup-manual/index-en.php#1 (http://www.fekete-moro.hu/bfta-setup-manual/index-en.php#1)
this is great advice, and shows the advantage of a pumper. less pumps at close range lowers the possibility of a pass through too.
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all my plinking/pesting rifles have inexpensive midot scopes mounted on them. the farthest i've had to shoot a pest is just over 50 yards, and most of them are right at 25 yards. i use the simple method of finding hold over/under. all three of my yard rifles are sighted in at 25 yards. then i set targets at 10, 15, 20, 30, 35, 40, 45, 50 yards and shot groups of 10 and recorded how many mildots they hit high or low. if the hits at 15 and 20 yards were minute of hosp at both ranges, i dismissed the 15 yard to keep from having too busy a card taped to the rifle stock. now when i see a pest at a spot in the yard (i memorized the distances of the trees, bushes, bird feeders) i look at the card and instantly know how to aim.
i also have a dedicated "upstairs" rifle for sniping out the bedroom window. that rifle was sighted in the same way, but from the window, as poi will change with angled shots.
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They're likely adjusting the turrets off camera as you suspect. Below is a link to some detailed info about scope set-up. As you have the capability to adjust the speed(and trajectory)with your Benji, you may want to try this. Sight the gun in at 10 yards using 4 or 5 pumps. Move the target out to 20 yards and see where your impact is. At this point you can add or subtract a pump to change POI up or down as necessary. Continue out to 35-40 yards. You can record your findings and keep them handy when out in the field. Years ago I found this method very effective with my Sheridan and a 4X fixed scope. Good luck!
pv
OOPS! Forgot link...http://www.fekete-moro.hu/bfta-setup-manual/index-en.php#1 (http://www.fekete-moro.hu/bfta-setup-manual/index-en.php#1)
this is great advice, and shows the advantage of a pumper. less pumps at close range lowers the possibility of a pass through too.
I plan on doing the 5 pump/10 yard thing this afternoon. I will let you all know how it turns out.
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I re-sighted my rifle for ten yards using 5 pumps. The 1st 3-shot group was about 1" low and 1/2" to the left. Once I got the groups vertically set, I switched to a fresh 1" target and fired 3 shots. the first two were vertically in line, but a touch left. So I dialed in a few clicks to the right and fired the third shot which hit the tiny bull.
So right now, I'm happy with the zero on the rifle on a target, now I just have to test it out under real conditions, with real chipmunks.
BTW, the pic is on it's left side, the first two shots were correct vertically, just a little left. The last shot was perfectly centered.
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I always "have fun" putting at least a three shot group on a fresh bull after I have zeroed a rifle, just to confirm. Single shot adjustments have the tendency to drive people mad trying to figure out what the problem is afterwards.
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When setting up a BDC reticle dope sheet remember that the BDC values change with magnification. UNLESS it's a first focal plane scope which are expensive and not often seen on AGs. IMO"
Funny but maybe I'm wrong. When I use the scope with the parellx side focus. That went away. If you were to change the power you just adj the parellx unlike a standered scope where that happens .
I'll retest that today to make sure I'm not mistaking. Seemed like that was one of the first things I noticed that changing power did not change point of impact.
Also mine is a sfp .
I did see a mildot with normal dots and baby dots between then like nced's hashs but it was out of my price range. Looked like a bit less clutter .
Changing the power will not change your point of impact at the center of the cross hairs. In fact it does not change you POI at all. What it does is change the values of the dots at a set distance. Side focus has nothing to do with reticle scale. It has to do with focusing target image on the same focal plane as the reticle to eliminate parallax.
Each mildot reticle is calibrated for a given power. Let's say yours is calibrated 12 power. Now on 12 power the distance between the cross hair and the first dot is roughly 3.6" at 100yds. If you dial the same scope down to 6 power the distance between the cross hair and the first dot is double or roughly 7.2". In other words if you practice that 100 yard shot on twelve power and it normally takes one mildot of holdover and you mistakenly use one mildot of hold over with the scope on 6 power your POI will be about 3.6" too high. On a deer or a bear not a big deal on small critter it is a missed shot or a wounded animal.