GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Diana Airguns => Topic started by: Ike the GSD on September 26, 2020, 11:47:41 PM
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I went to Pyramid Air shopping today and one of the representatives prompted a customer service chat. While we were chatting I asked him whether using heavy pellets such as the 10.65 gr Barracudas would damage my rifle and he emphatically said no. I've read a few posts on here that concerns me with his answer and was hoping to get some feedback from those of you who have actual experience with this.
Thanks
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I don’t know if they’ll harm the gun. Some claim that heavy pellets can shorten the spring’s lifespan, but I don’t know first-hand. I do know that mine shot barracudas pretty well and made 15 FPE with them, but it seemed like there was a bit more vibration when shooting them.
I’ve been trying to come up with a lower-powered solution that gets minimal movement/recoil/whatever it’s called using lighter pellets. Seems like it should be more accurate/less hold sensitive and still get a better trajectory.
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I think the .22 is the same except barrel.The .22 pellet is heaver than .177.Just my thought.
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To find the best pellet match to any of my air guns spring powered or PCP I’ll shoot a variety of weights to see which produces the most Fpe and that’s what I stick with in that certain gun. In a springer I have yet to find a gun that prefers the heaviest pellet.
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I think the .22 is the same except barrel.The .22 pellet is heaver than .177.Just my thought.
It is the ratio of pellet weight to surface area (and expansion ratios that matter). The peak pressure reached for a .177 and .22 pellet of the same weight are not the same, when shot from the same platform.
It is possible that a 10.X grain .177 might lead to earlier spring failure. That only matters if it happens sooner than the OP cares about.
Certainly, member nced has experienced this with a HW95 / R9, where shooting 10.5 grain Crosman pellets caused the main spring to break after something like 2000 shots. Compared to shooting only 7.9 grain pellets for multiples of that, after replacing the spring.
The Diana 34 is not a HW95, but their performance is similar. I say, experiment with pellets until you find ones that work for you. Then see what the long term effects might be. Pellet hardness and diameter also affect peak pressure, so a softer, thinner skirt heavy JSB pellet may not shorten a spring's life as much as a Crosman of similar weight.
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First off u need to know the spring wire size in a said rifle u intend to use heavier pellets in, smaller DIA spring wire does not handle heavier pellets as well as heavier wire, the 34's from the factory have a 128DIA spring wire, IMO it is more the capable of handling 10.5gn pellets that said, Factory springs do not have any real longevity to begin with, so the 10gn pellets will probably kill that spring faster then an 8gn pellet, but IMO a better spring wire from ARH or other reputable spring maker using the same wire DIA will last a lot longer then an OEM spring! spring are consumable items like seals so IMO I would not be concerned about using the heavier pellets JMO ;D
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The heavier pellets will absolutely not damage or harm your spring.
Strange enough my D34 .22 shoots great with JSB Exact Jumbo Monster 25.39 grains. And though I am mixing them shooting the standard JSB Exact 15.91 grains as well, based on the purpose, I do not experience any spring issues.
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I do not experience any spring issues.
After 2 cans of pellets; or 10 cans of pellets?
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Beeman (Weihrauch) makes the R1 (HW80) in .177, .20. .22, .25..
The rifle uses the same spring in all calibers.
Keep the spring well lubricated and it will last longer than you.
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Subscriber's response above is good. I agree that pellet hardness also matters. A soft, heavy pellet is less likely to make the piston bounce on the air cushion than a hard pellet of similar or lighter weight. I think that's what you need to be concerned with is how terribly the piston will bounce. If I'm not mistaken, the same gun in different calibers are often made with different sized transfer ports to help reduce piston bounce. Thought experiment, a .25 cal gun with a .177 sized transfer port being used to shoot a heavy (30gr) pellet will likely bounce the piston particularly when the pellet is hard.
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The feel and sound of the rifle when it fires is a good way to match the "right" pellet to the bore/spring/machine.
The less noise and vibration the pellet causes the better it is for that rifle.
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Almost all manufactures use the same size TP in a givin model of air gun regardless of caliber! :o
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And HW 95/97/77 all use the same size spring wire of .122DIA or .125DIA which is why 10.5gn pellets cause breakage, + again factory springs are designed for the long haul under any usage 8)
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And HW 95/97/77 all use the same size spring wire of .122DIA or .125DIA which is why 10.5gn pellets cause breakage, + again factory springs are designed for the long haul under any usage 8)
I dunno about that!
My Beeman R9 and HW80 have fired over 2000 pellets each easy and now I feel they are just getting started. Most of those pellets were the 10.5gr Crossmans, which I even used in my R7 and HW30 as well.
Never had a broken spring, but Ed has done the testing with his two rifles and replaced springs showing his results and the explanation that the spring itself gets "sprung" in the forward region of the chamber or not evenly worn depending upon the compression force and bore and pellet size down to decimals.
My own R9 was a "mediocre" performer with these so called Premier Pellets and Crow Magnums but as soon as I found the light AA Express Diablos the R9 is a top performer along with the rest of the "R9" series of rifles I have now.
My personal take is to forget about "longevity" and favor the pellet that your rifle likes. Why should you be feeding Brocolli and vegetables to your rife when there's some real hamburger and steak out there?
:D
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If you get 3 to 6k shots on ur factory spring ur doing good! 8)
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I shot 10.65 cudas in my 34 almost exclusively when I had it back in 93. Had no problems with it the 5-6 years I had it but can't tell you how many pellets I shot out of it. CRS!
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I shot 10.65 cudas in my 34 almost exclusively when I had it back in 93. Had no problems with it the 5-6 years I had it but can't tell you how many pellets I shot out of it. CRS!
That's what I wanted to hear, thank you Madd Hatter 😀
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The feel and sound of the rifle when it fires is a good way to match the "right" pellet to the bore/spring/machine.
The less noise and vibration the pellet causes the better it is for that rifle.
Absolutely
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I've shot 10s of thousands of pellets in my spring guns and have never worried about shooting "heavy" pellets. If they shoot well, use them. If I get 10,000 instead of 12,000 shots because I used JSB 10.3s instead of 8.4s I don't care.
Good luck
R
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This may sound sarcastic but I do not mean it such. Many opinions are correct here. The most important one, in my “opinion” is shoot the most accurate pellet you find for your rifle regardless of weight. It’s just a spring! When it fails, and it will, replace it and start shooting again. 8)
I have a 34 pro compact. When new, the most accurate pellet was the 10.3 jsb. I shot them exclusively until my spring broke in two places. Yes, is was early failure likely due to the heavy pellet. You’ll never believe what I did. I replaced the factory internal organs with a Vortek kit!! Crazy I know!! That was the seemingly sarcastic part :P. Interestingly enough, the rifle’s favorite Pellet changed, because of the tune kit, to the AA 8.4 grain pellet. The rifle is still one of my best and I’ll never let it go.
Point being; heavy pellets are known to fail springs, especially the hard Diana factory springs. Hector once explained the science and maths that explain this but it’s above my cabinet making skills to reiterate what Hector explained so well. Perhaps he’ll chime in for our edification and enlightenment. But the simple truth remains, as Colonel Townsend Whalen said “only accurate rifles are interesting” and I agree. Shoot the most accurate pellet and grin unapologetically...
Respectfully written, this has been a T-Higgs public service announcement.
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Almost all manufactures use the same size TP in a givin model of air gun regardless of caliber! :o
I guess I was paying attention to the only one who didn't. funny how something so common sense can't be assumed.
Once again life makes a fool of me.
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I've been watching this thread because it has been enlightening to me how well the contributors to this forum know what happens inside airguns. This forum is easily the most scientific/technically oriented forum I know. Thanks to all for contributing!
Now if I may, for a short while, explain the manufacturer in question's perspective on the issue of the springs:
We believe springs should yield the power that the customer paid for.
As simple as that.
We will not use gimmicks to advertise power, we will not tell you something that we cannot deliver.
BUT, we ARE bound by the market forces.
Putting a $30 spring in a $200 gun would add $120 to the gun. Yes, that is the proportion under current market structure. And there is precious little ANY manufacturer can do about it.
So, we put in a spring that falls within the cost of material parameters, but that ALSO yields the power we said it would (or exceed it).
We play not only with the geometry of the spring, about which we have talked much, but we also push the limits of the material.
The result is a spring that we KNOW will not be a "life-time" spring for some shooters, but that will be a "life-time" spring for MOST shooters. And here we need to remember that, worldwide, out of ALL the spring-piston airguns bought only about 10-20% get continuous heavy usage.
MOST are bought, shot for a weekend or two, and then put away till the estate executor has to decide about it.
And so, a MEDIAN (statistical term), life of 4,500 shots is deemed acceptable.
Now, as with humans, not all springs are born the same, even with EXACTLY the same materials, geometry and heat treatment. So, SOME will last 10,000 shots (at 20 shots per month that is 42 years), and some will last 2,000 shots (at 20 shots per week, that is 2 years).
It can be mathematically demonstrated (using finite element analysis techniques), that those springs that are used intensively (as in 100 shots per weekly session) WILL fail "early" due to a phenomenon that happens INSIDE the steel that, although it is a bit more complex that the name implies, we'll call "work hardening".
Having said all that, I would concur with those of you that have expressed the idea that a spring in a spring-piston airgun is a consumable.
Depending on what EACH shooter wants, that consumable can be made to last many years, or yield top performance for a shorter while.
And, to ME, as a professional gunsmith, the over-riding criteria should be to achieve the accuracy and precision the shooter wants. No more, no less. If we go too much into the extremely high precision, we will punish yield, if we privilege too much yield, we will punish accuracy and life. BUT, if this "life" still falls within the parameters of what the users want, then it is acceptable.
So, if Wes/Ike wants a 1" at 50 yards and he gets that with the Baracudas, that is GREAT and he should keep on shooting them, KNOWING that if he shoots 100 pellets every week in intensive sessions, then his spring MAY last a couple of years. If he is contented with 1" at 30 yards, and he wants to keep on shooting the same spring for many years, then perhaps he would be wise to shoot something in the 8 grs. region.
Hardness of the pellet plays a more important role when you are talking about different materials (not so much as alloys, but as in lead vs. tin). The difference in the spring life in the case of the Premiers vs. JSB's is more a question of pellet DESIGN than material.
A tin pellet will be harder INITIALLY, so, it is good that tin pellets are lighter. In this sense, the GTO's in 0.22" are exceptional performers out to 30 yards, the restricted power transfer capability (expansion ratio) of the 0.177" cal. makes current tin pellets somewhat difficult to use effectively. But it can be done, just not in a standard OEM steel spring D34.
In the grand scheme of things, a spring is a spring, whether you pay $10 for the OEM replacement and DIY every couple of years, or you get a Pro to tune your gun, pay $200 and then having to replace that spring every 10 years; it is up to you to gauge how much added value that will have.
One thing we ALL need to understand: THERE ARE NO MAGIC SOLUTIONS. All the ads about "drop-in" steel spring kits making the gun 10 times better, smooother, quieter, less hold sensitive, etc, etc, etc, are just that : Advertisement/Propaganda.
You WILL pay one way or the other in different aspects. Spring life at rated power/ Power/ annual breakdown and re-lubing/ etc.
Luckily, there is a LOT of information about how different kits behave/perform, AND about how to do it.
If you do NOT enjoy SOME level of tinkering, write to a Pro and specify what are the important parameters he needs to put his attention on. He will then discuss with you all aspects of the job, and it will be up to you to decide to take the plunge or not.
Hope this helps, keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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Exactly my thinking !
A spring is a consumable. And the whole idea behind shooting imho, is to hit where you are aiming at. Regardles of the type of pellet or pellet weight, you take the best option. Any care about the spring comes second.
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Almost all manufactures use the same size TP in a givin model of air gun regardless of caliber! :o
I guess I was paying attention to the only one who didn't. funny how something so common sense can't be assumed.
Once again life makes a fool of me.
Join the club. If life didn't do that every once a a while and keep us humble, we would all be so full of our selves no one would want to be around us. 😁
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I've been watching this thread because it has been enlightening to me how well the contributors to this forum know what happens inside airguns. This forum is easily the most scientific/technically oriented forum I know. Thanks to all for contributing!
Now if I may, for a short while, explain the manufacturer in question's perspective on the issue of the springs:
We believe springs should yield the power that the customer paid for.
As simple as that.
We will not use gimmicks to advertise power, we will not tell you something that we cannot deliver.
BUT, we ARE bound by the market forces.
Putting a $30 spring in a $200 gun would add $120 to the gun. Yes, that is the proportion under current market structure. And there is precious little ANY manufacturer can do about it.
So, we put in a spring that falls within the cost of material parameters, but that ALSO yields the power we said it would (or exceed it).
We play not only with the geometry of the spring, about which we have talked much, but we also push the limits of the material.
The result is a spring that we KNOW will not be a "life-time" spring for some shooters, but that will be a "life-time" spring for MOST shooters. And here we need to remember that, worldwide, out of ALL the spring-piston airguns bought only about 10-20% get continuous heavy usage.
MOST are bought, shot for a weekend or two, and then put away till the estate executor has to decide about it.
And so, a MEDIAN (statistical term), life of 4,500 shots is deemed acceptable.
Now, as with humans, not all springs are born the same, even with EXACTLY the same materials, geometry and heat treatment. So, SOME will last 10,000 shots (at 20 shots per month that is 42 years), and some will last 2,000 shots (at 20 shots per week, that is 2 years).
It can be mathematically demonstrated (using finite element analysis techniques), that those springs that are used intensively (as in 100 shots per weekly session) WILL fail "early" due to a phenomenon that happens INSIDE the steel that, although it is a bit more complex that the name implies, we'll call "work hardening".
Having said all that, I would concur with those of you that have expressed the idea that a spring in a spring-piston airgun is a consumable.
Depending on what EACH shooter wants, that consumable can be made to last many years, or yield top performance for a shorter while.
And, to ME, as a professional gunsmith, the over-riding criteria should be to achieve the accuracy and precision the shooter wants. No more, no less. If we go too much into the extremely high precision, we will punish yield, if we privilege too much yield, we will punish accuracy and life. BUT, if this "life" still falls within the parameters of what the users want, then it is acceptable.
So, if Wes/Ike wants a 1" at 50 yards and he gets that with the Baracudas, that is GREAT and he should keep on shooting them, KNOWING that if he shoots 100 pellets every week in intensive sessions, then his spring MAY last a couple of years. If he is contented with 1" at 30 yards, and he wants to keep on shooting the same spring for many years, then perhaps he would be wise to shoot something in the 8 grs. region.
Hardness of the pellet plays a more important role when you are talking about different materials (not so much as alloys, but as in lead vs. tin). The difference in the spring life in the case of the Premiers vs. JSB's is more a question of pellet DESIGN than material.
A tin pellet will be harder INITIALLY, so, it is good that tin pellets are lighter. In this sense, the GTO's in 0.22" are exceptional performers out to 30 yards, the restricted power transfer capability (expansion ratio) of the 0.177" cal. makes current tin pellets somewhat difficult to use effectively. But it can be done, just not in a standard OEM steel spring D34.
In the grand scheme of things, a spring is a spring, whether you pay $10 for the OEM replacement and DIY every couple of years, or you get a Pro to tune your gun, pay $200 and then having to replace that spring every 10 years; it is up to you to gauge how much added value that will have.
One thing we ALL need to understand: THERE ARE NO MAGIC SOLUTIONS. All the ads about "drop-in" steel spring kits making the gun 10 times better, smooother, quieter, less hold sensitive, etc, etc, etc, are just that : Advertisement/Propaganda.
You WILL pay one way or the other in different aspects. Spring life at rated power/ Power/ annual breakdown and re-lubing/ etc.
Luckily, there is a LOT of information about how different kits behave/perform, AND about how to do it.
If you do NOT enjoy SOME level of tinkering, write to a Pro and specify what are the important parameters he needs to put his attention on. He will then discuss with you all aspects of the job, and it will be up to you to decide to take the plunge or not.
Hope this helps, keep well and shoot straight!
HM
Excellent info Hector as usual. Thanks! 🤔
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Nced on HWs has the spring thing about where there is wear in springs and what heavies do "against the law" which is they SLOW the spring from unbinding and actually the wear of the spring inside is accelerated for the life of the spring.
So then a spring, which is the almost cheapest part of the Springer Air Rifle should should should be the "heart" of the rifle; and I am shocked a mere 10$ spring is put into a D54 or other and the cost to put a decent rifle together with a better spring.
I have forbad heavy pellets in my own tuned to 13 gr .20s by Hector because these 15gr .20s are doing weird things coming out of the barrel of my Hector Special D54 .20.
One out of three or five shots with the heavy pellets sounds as loud as a dry fire with the heavy pellet hitting the ground in front of the target at slingshot velocity! Then I load another and it SLAMS into the target dead center. Hector had mentioned the washers inside the muzzle brake may be harder to control the heavier pellet and certainly SOMETHING is happening with my own Diana.
This is part of the reason why I think modifying a rifle is a very tricky business where the hours of work (labor) on the rifle way outweigh the parts.
My solution to the problem with the Heavy .20 pellets is to see what the regular ones do when they get here (that Hector tuned the rifle to) and it will probably straighten out straightway according to Hector's prediction.
???
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@ John;
I just hope you haven't broken one of the baffles. But, we'll see. I have given you some homework, so let's see if you find bits and pieces of pellets here and there.
It's not so much that modifying a gun is tricky. It is that if you have a REALLY "souped up" car, you cannot drive it like a family sedan.
And keeping to the car analogy, a 440 engine in a medium-light car will eat tires like nobody's business. So a spring, unless it is well matched to the power it needs to deliver AT THE RATE it needs to deliver it, will suffer.
TO the rest of the friends: Two of you asked me to go deeper into the geometry of the springs and into why intensive, continual, sessions fatigue the spring more rapidly and cause early breakage. So, I'll try to explain it as simply as possible, without "dumbing it down". Please bear with me.
We discussed the Geometry at length in this post:
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/lets-talk-springs-ii-geometry (https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/lets-talk-springs-ii-geometry)
But BEFORE that we had discussed the MATERIALS of springs, so let's go back 13 months and think about things:
And let's start with a simple, everyday analogy that if we cannot relate, it is not beyond anyone's means to repeat the experiment:
Anyone that has put soap concentrate into a dispenser bottle and added water knows that he has two options:
a) very slowly rotate the bottle to homogenize the solution
b) wait overnight/24 hours for the two parts to become one.
Now, you cannot do that with oil and water because they are immiscible (Sunday word that means they do not dissolve in each other).
The analogy comes because carbon is soluble in steel, silicon, chrome, vanadium, and cobalt are, just up to a point. Aluminum and copper are not.
So, if you have a steel alloy that has iron and carbon (obviously), plus Silicon, Chrome (these four make the steel a "Valve Steel", as we explained here:
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/lets-talk-springs (https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/lets-talk-springs)
And some other elements are added, like Copper (to increase resistance to fatigue), Vanadium and Cobalt (To increase the elastic limit -tensile strength-), and sometimes, even after the alloy has been "cooked" at the proper temperature, MORE Vanadium and Manganese, we have a very peculiar compound.
These extremely sophisticated steels have a number of properties that cannot be replicated by any other material on earth (or in the stars):
They can resist wide deflections without exceeding their elastic limit (taking a set), they can repeat the duty cycles MILLIONS of times as long as certain limits for stress and strain are followed, they will release back almost the same amount of energy they received EVERY time (lack of Hysteresis).
BUT, because they are a "concoction" of sorts, they are also subject to some rules:
1.- The non-alloyed (meaning not "fixated" into the crystalline geometry) elements (solutes) flow rather easily among the solvent (Iron+Carbon) molecules
2.- Heat affects the structure of the crystals, as well as of the "dough" by facilitating the flow of non-alloyed elements.
3.- The lighter the duty cycle, the more "complete" will be the energy delivered, the energy that is not returned stays INSIDE the steel and heats it up
And so, in airgun design, we are faced with requirements that very clearly NEED TO INFRINGE on these principles:
For example: Break barrels benefit from large pre-loads of relatively thin wire springs compressed almost to solid, as we demonstrated here:
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/the-gunsmiths-tune-part-14-full-power-walther-lgv (https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/the-gunsmiths-tune-part-14-full-power-walther-lgv)
But by doing this we infringe on principle #3 which leads to the other two principles being infringed.
We can also infringe on principle #2 by shooting 100 pellets in an hour, and when we do this for days on end. We do not allow principle #1 to help us in re-establishing an equilibrium of alloyed and non-alloyed elements.
So, that is how by using ONE gun intensively, WE can create the conditions for a short spring life.
Could we design airguns that overcome this? Yes, but no one would buy them, they would be too expensive. Just imagine a D54 going from $570 to $770. Would YOU buy an airgun because it assures you that the spring will last 10 years? Doubt it.
Can we use a different technology? Yes, but the alternative is not perfect. Gas springs are notoriously more inefficient because a big part of the cocking effort goes into defeating the friction that is caused by the relatively high pressures needed to seal properly the gas that is accumulating the work/energy of the cocking stroke. Materials have advanced, and we ARE getting closer and closer.
It's just a question of time before we can use each material (air, gas, or steel) to it's best.
In the meantime, the REAL solution is to buy TWO identical guns, LOL! :P and shoot one one day, letting them both rest one day, and then shooting the other, then repeating.
;-)
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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Simple fix.
Have the engine (cars/trucks) makers make springs for airgun use.
Engine valve springs seem to last forever.
Lubrication is the key...
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I went to Pyramid Air shopping today and one of the representatives prompted a customer service chat. While we were chatting I asked him whether using heavy pellets such as the 10.65 gr Barracudas would damage my rifle and he emphatically said no. I've read a few posts on here that concerns me with his answer and was hoping to get some feedback from those of you who have actual experience with this.
Thanks
When I first sold a used .177 R9 to my brother decades ago he only used the 10.5 grain Crosman Premiers because they were a bit less affected by wind and they were "deep perpetrators" on tree squirrels. LOL, when cleaning squirrels after a hunt I noticed that he hit one grey at the hip and that CPH drove long ways through the squirrel to get embedded in the spine at the neck. The CPH was also very accurate at the 14.5fpe tun level of the gun as sold to him. He was shooting "3 shot powder burner groups" at that time but here is a target shot with two timy CPH groups shot at a single setting from his bench.........
(https://i.imgur.com/QDfRViZl.jpg)
We used Maccari Tarantula springs in our R9 at that time (.128 wire) and with my brother shooting about 10,000 shots per year (same as I did) the "T" springs would be replaced every other season. After several years my brother found that the flatter trajectory of the 7.9 grain CPL trumped the slightly better wind resistance of the CPH and switched to shooting the lighter pellets. I did replace one "T spring" the season after the switch do to the fact that he was previously shooting "heavies", but I never replaced another Maccari "T" spring before moving from West Virginia to North Carolina a few years later.
Anywhoo........I do have experience proving to my satisfaction that the claim made by "the spring man" at ARH that heavy pellets shorten spring life.
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Simple fix.
Have the engine (cars/trucks) makers make springs for airgun use.
Engine valve springs seem to last forever.
Lubrication is the key...
Sorry, Frank, but no.
BIG difference is the duty cycle.
Motor valve springs are compressed maybe to 66-70% of their length For example: from 1.8" to 1.2" at max lift. In most cases, we compress airgun springs to 50% and less of their length. Exception are the short stroked guns.
This is the real difference. And even in Motor Engine Valves, the current trend in the performance side is to nest two, even three springs.
There is an outfit in Poland that does nested springs for airguns, and they had a "shop" in EBay, but I have not been able to get hold of them lately and the language barrier was too much to overcome for them.
If anyone speaks Polish good enough to exchange EMails of technical/commercial nature, I would be grateful for their help.
;-)
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM