GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: oldpro on September 11, 2020, 05:54:05 PM
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Anyone know of any non pcp air rifles that can produce close to 30 fpe in .177?
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A Hatsan 135 might be close.
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hatsan torpedo 155 with pile drivers?
i do beleive you are gonna need a very heavy for caliber projectile to stay sub sonic at more than 22fpe if i have my data straight...
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I seem to remember the late Kenny Kormandy getting over 28 FPE from a Hatsan 125 Sniper.(coil spring version).
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I’m getting 27-28FPE with a Hatsan Torpedo 150 Sniper Vortex Using JSB Heavy 10.34s (I increased ram pressure to about 150 bar) Ram is stamped with a max of 160bar but I haven’t gone above 150 so I assume it’ll probably hit about 30FPE at 160. The Torpedo 155 Is a very similar gun but longer barrel, uses the same ram so I assume it’ll do similar power.
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I have a Hatsan 135 Vortex in .177 that will do very close to that and may exceed with the right ammo IIR.
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Regarding the Hatsan Torpedo I mentioned a few posts up, it has top power but also accuracy, see post below for a 70yd group I shot earlier in the summer and you can see how it does in the 30yd rested target matches (competes well with the German springers as well as PCPs!). I also qualified for the NUAH club with the gun.
70yd group
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=174983.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=174983.0)
30yd target matches gate (I think I shot in every match but one this year)
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?board=18.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?board=18.0)
Power and accuracy, but one note is that it is a heavy gun, best for shooting from a rest.
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You could look into the Diana 350 with the coil spring. I think the gas spring version has a wee bit more power.
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i missed the 177 part.. the Cap tuned webleys would likely do 30 fpe with a slug , and thats about it.. Maybe a theoben dual magnum.. Im sure a modded pumper ( similar to the millenium pumper ) could also do it ... A smalleer piston pumper would be ideal to achieve the pressure needed, as a larger bore pumper like the 392 becomes impossible past about 2200 psi.. I think Bob pumped a 1377 mechanism to 2900
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Diana 350 is about 20 FPE in .177. About 22 FPE in .22. At least that is what mine run at, unmodified.
The snag is that the .177 bore volume is small and can't take advantage of the "huge" swept volume and massive spring used in "super magnum" springers. To get more of that power out, a .22 or .25 are required. Think British made Webley Patriot family of airguns.
Is this for slug shooting, Travis?
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Diana 350 is about 20 FPE in .177. About 22 FPE in .22. At least that is what mine run at, unmodified.
The snag is that the .177 bore volume is small and can't take advantage of the "huge" swept volume and massive spring used in "super magnum" springers. To get more of that power out, a .22 or .25 are required. Think British made Webley Patriot family of airguns.
Is this for slug shooting, Travis?
Yes as a slug shooter to pack around using Nicks new slugs
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Yes as a slug shooter to pack around using Nicks new slugs
30 FPE at 950 FPS suggests a 15 grain .177 slug. At 1000 FPS, it suggest a 13.64 grain slug.
How much loss to friction from the extra bearing length would be interesting. May have to lengthen the "chamber throat" or use some sort of loading probe to shoot them from a springer. That is, unless the slug has near land diameter section, with a driving band at the back (or very close to the back), similar in diameter to a typical pellet skirt: 0.002 to 0.004" over groove diameter. The latter could load with finger pressure, yet seal like a waisted pellet.
A heavier slug would not need as much "holding" by the skirt flare in the chamber to build peak pressure, as a light pellet. So, the driving band could be just 0.002" over groove diameter, due to the inertia of the slug helping to hold it before "takeoff". The question is still, which airgun manufacturer's groove diameter? Ditto for the land diameter. If the slugs were cast, there could be a narrow front and rear driving band that would accommodate a range of bore and groove diameters, without being too tight or too sloppy...
I like pellets that load at an estimated 2 lb into my break barrel springers. Anything over 5 lb is too much. Over 10 lb and fingers hurt in a hurry. Especially with small caliber pellets.
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These NSA slugs look swagged, with no driving bands; so finding springers with compatible bore diameters would be a must... Reaming a shallow loading cone chamber might be required for best results. Applying too much loading force will distort the slugs, or hurt the customer's fingers. Slugs that "drop in", without a special chamber, would tend to "drop through"...
30 FPE with 12.5 grainers would suggest a MV of 1040 FPS. Even if that was only 1000 FPS due to friction (or blow-by), 27.5 FPE would still be pretty impressive in .177. Especially for a springer.
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0794/5877/products/12.5grain178_7753b57e-117d-4540-a03d-af922945949b_2048x2048.jpg?v=1598561346)
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0794/5877/products/15.0Grain178_18096a63-ea35-4971-87ab-75b9a640d417_2048x2048.jpg?v=1598561346)
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The question is what might a springer chamber look like that would allow easy slug loading, while still being compatible with diabolo pellets. I explored that question usig Lothar Walther land and groove diameters for conventional rifling: https://www.lothar-walther.de/barrel-blank/airgun/standard-profile-with-choke/1453/airgun-blank-choked-4-5mm-air-od-10-mm-l-605-mm?c=273 (https://www.lothar-walther.de/barrel-blank/airgun/standard-profile-with-choke/1453/airgun-blank-choked-4-5mm-air-od-10-mm-l-605-mm?c=273)
I assumed a breech cone of 45 degrees. The engineer in me thinks 30 degrees per side would make for better pellet skirt alignment, but it does not "look right" compared to Weihrauch and Diana break barrels out there. Even if the original breech cone angle is 40 degrees per side, it does not really affect the analysis below.
I measure a small sample of .177 pellets for the distance between the unfired skirt OD to head OD. These seem to be right around 4.5 mm. So, I decided that in order to fully support even wadcutters, the full land diameter portion of the barrel bore should remain 4 to 4.25 mm from where the pellet skirt sits against the breech cone (not the barrel face).
If slug diameters are less than groove diameter, then the new chamber cone would not need to end at the groove diameter. It could be a little smaller. In any event, the resulting slug chamber cone ends up with a taper of just over 1 degree. That should enable easy loading with the fingers, and spectacular alignment of slug to bore.
Obviously the "best" dimensions for the slug cone would depend on the exact slug diameter and the exact land and groove diameters involed.
Now, I have seen low powered air guns with a chamber that has more than the single breech cone to make loading pellets easier. The P17 chamber feels like this. How relieving the lands as I am suggesting would affect the accuracy of diabolo pellets in a 30 FPE springer remains unknown. I can see the pellet reaching significant velocity over that first 4.25 mm of travel, such that the pellet skirt might experience some skidding in the shallow lead-in section of the lands. On the other hand, providing the lands don't strip completely, the worst case is a little more blowby between pellet skirt and the unloaded side of each land. This does not have to affect pellet stability in the bore as the pellet would still be fully constrained.
If the effective breech cone minimum diameter is larger, pellets would be released earlier in the shot cycle. This may not matter with heavy diabolo pellets, but might might shooting lighter pellets even more prone to slamming the piston into the end of the compression cylinder.
If the idea is to only shoot slugs, then pellet considerations are moot.
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i only put a mild countersink on a .22 break barrel to ease loading and lost 50 fps...
this brings up a statement by the Cardrews about the intial resistance of projectile movement was a strong factor in developing chamber pressure...
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i only put a mild countersink on a .22 break barrel to ease loading and lost 50 fps...
What angle and diameter did you make it? What was it before?
Apart from easier pellet release, a larger ID, more gradual slant, or more rounded breech cone also increases the total volume of the breech. While this small change might seem trivial, increasing the effective transfer port volume has a significant effect on the "compression ratio"; thus on the peak pressure, and therefore the efficiency of a springer powerplant.
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Before I would engage in all that machine work I think I might look for a heavy pellet that could produce similar results. :P
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Before I would engage in all that machine work I think I might look for a heavy pellet that could produce similar results. :P
Based on the quote by the original poster below, the slugs he wants to shoot already exist. Now the question is if a springer exists that would work with them. You might ask, why not a PCP? I am sure he has his reasons.
Yes as a slug shooter to pack around using Nicks new slugs
So, perhaps either the airgun chamber or slug design may need to be modified for this to work. Whether it will be worth the trouble is for the OP to figure out.
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i only put a mild countersink on a .22 break barrel to ease loading and lost 50 fps...
What angle and diameter did you make it? What was it before?
Apart from easier pellet release, a larger ID, more gradual slant, or more rounded breech cone also increases the total volume of the breech. While this small change might seem trivial, increasing the effective transfer port volume has a significant effect on the "compression ratio"; thus on the peak pressure, and therefore the efficiency of a springer powerplant.
45^ and maybe .010 in from land face to OD.....like i said a mild countersink, factory is a sharp 90^ to bore....just enough to ease the thumb abuse when loading Crosman pellets...and well i it did so that, but it also slowed down from 770 to 720fps too...trade offs,,always trade offs
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Anyone know of any non pcp air rifles that can produce close to 30 fpe in .177?
I have an oldskool UK Patriot in .22 now downtuned with Theoben gasram, but on its original spring doing some 42-43joule (31fpe) so I m guessing a .177 Patriot with original spring could be somewhere along 36-37joule or 27fpe. Oldskool Patriots however are becoming quite scarce (if you want a good one anyway).
This much said,
A low cost alternative for your needs – and all in all not too bad looking either- is the Artemis GR1600W . According to factory specs : 29,5 fpe
https://www.fusil-calais.com/en/2447-artemis-gr1600w-air-rifle-177-bore-40-joule.html (https://www.fusil-calais.com/en/2447-artemis-gr1600w-air-rifle-177-bore-40-joule.html)
(https://i.imgur.com/feq2noX.png)
Factory page :
http://www.artemis-airgun.com/#details/series/showproduct.php?lang=en&id=54 (http://www.artemis-airgun.com/#details/series/showproduct.php?lang=en&id=54)
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I have a Hatsan 135 Vortex in .177 that will do very close to that and may exceed with the right ammo IIR.
OK I shot some .177 NSA 12.5 gr. slugs out of the 135, over the crono, just over legal FT energy with 20.25 foot pounds of muzzle energy at 854 FPS avg.
Bet them 50 yard shots in the wind will be easier ;) They do fit the bore nice and snug, but can push in with thumb with out extreme effort.
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Some of the old xl1500s were making around 27 to 28 fpe. David
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Might work with a tuned spring gun and heavy pellets. I had the loan for review several years ago of a Mac1 “steroid” conversion Benjamin pump gun that would spit out 14gr Crosman .22 pellets at close to 30 ft-lb. I think it took around 20 pumps. The Theoben Eliminator (aka the Beeman “Crow Magnum”) in .25 generated a a similar amount of energy.
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I just noticed this old thread on high-power non-PCP .177 cal airguns and wanted to add some recent chrony results from a new .177 caliber Hatsan 135 Vortex gas piston QE break barrel. I had a Hatsan 135 in .30 cal and also one in .22 cal and was curious to see how the .177 would make use of the large volume of available compressed air.
The attached snapshot shows chrony results for 8 types of pellets and 2 types of slugs out of a new Hatsan 135. Power was not as high as I'd expected given the performance of the larger calibers, with the 3 most powerful .177 pellets only producing between 20.6fpe and 20.9 fpe. Just checked some old chrony results with a Gamo Mach 1 in .177 and the top power pellets there averaged between 14fpe and 15.5fpe.
I'd purchased Hatsan 135s in all 4 calibers in order to finish a year's long project testing the power increases resulting from the use of ~6ul of raw linseed oil as a pellet dieseling agent. The chrony & power results of dieseling a dozen types of pellets through a dozen different models of break barrel rifles with raw linseed are already posted elsewhere on the forum.
The .177 cal 13.43 grain Exact Monster pellets were the only .177 pellets I tested which exceeded 30fpe when dieseled with raw linseed oil, which for technical reasons is the only safe and consistently predictable dieseling agent I've found. That's a power increase of approximately 75% over baseline power for that pellet in the Hatsan 135. Dieseled pellet power increases with linseed oil usually average between 35% and 65% power increase over baseline, across all calibers, with the Hatsan 135 in .30 cal consistently producing 50+fpe when dieseled.
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Any long gun Bucking like a Brahma Bull ??? .... accuracy wins the day.
Marriage made in Hades :-[
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any big bore filled with co2 will make 30fpe ;D
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Can you hit anything with a 30 fpe .177 break barrel?
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Can you hit anything with a 30 fpe .177 break barrel?
Yes and hard...if you have enough room to get a good swing with it! ;D ;D ;D
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Can you hit anything with a 30 fpe .177 break barrel?
Yes and hard...if you have enough room to get a good swing with it! ;D ;D ;D
Lol
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now that there is funny :D
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All one can do is hope to hit the jackpot when your eyes stop spinning like a slot machine reel LOL
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Anyone know of any non pcp air rifles that can produce close to 30 fpe in .177?
Don't know about .177 cal but years ago I shot a .25 cal Beeman Kodiac (rebadged Webley Patriot) that was brought to a DIFTA field target match (LOL, not for field target shooting). That Kodiac was shooting .25 Cal 20.06 Grain H&N Field Target Trophy Domes @ 800fps mv for about 28 1/2fpe.
The owner of the gun told me that he used it to dispatch "trash can raiding raccoons" and it was rather accurate when I shot some targets with it. IMHO, 800-880fps is the "sweet spot" for accurate pellet flight so I have no idea why anyone would want to shoot a .177 cal pellet of any weight at 30fpe. That would mean that the gun would have to shoot a JSB Exact Beast Diabolo .177 Cal 16.20 Grain Domed pellet at about 913fps!!!! LOL, if that were possible I see burned piston seals, lead fouled bores along, possibly with unstable pellet flight, but it does seem that a .177 cal 16.20 grain pellet would have really good BC & SD :C.
https://alphaandomegaoutdoors.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/177-Caliber-Air-Gun-Weight-Pellet-Chart-Alpha-and-Omega-Outdoors.pdf
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There are .177 slugs and heavier 13g+ pellets now... so if you could get accuracy.. ;)
Me I would just put a long barrel on my nice light .177 Stormrider... Might be able to get close with a custom multi pump air rifle with a big valve and long barrel...
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771 fps out of a Hatsan 135 .177 with NSA 20.5gr. If the calculator is right, it's right on 27ft/lbs.
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Anyone know of any non pcp air rifles that can produce close to 30 fpe in .177?
A low cost alternative for your needs – and all in all not too bad looking either- is the Artemis GR1600W . According to factory specs : 29,5 fpe
https://www.fusil-calais.com/en/2447-artemis-gr1600w-air-rifle-177-bore-40-joule.html (https://www.fusil-calais.com/en/2447-artemis-gr1600w-air-rifle-177-bore-40-joule.html)
(https://i.imgur.com/feq2noX.png)
Factory page :
http://www.artemis-airgun.com/#details/series/showproduct.php?lang=en&id=54 (http://www.artemis-airgun.com/#details/series/showproduct.php?lang=en&id=54)
The .177 cal Artemises don't shoot anywhere near the manufacturer's claim of 40J (29.4 fpe). More like 30J (22 fpe)
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ARTEMIS GR1600W air rifle - .177 bore (40 Joule) 29.5025 foot pounds.
Not available to us in the US. Popular in other countries.
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ARTEMIS GR1600W air rifle - .177 bore (40 Joule) 29.5025 foot pounds.
Not available to us in the US. Popular in other countries.
Wanted a GR1600W bad. Could never find one. It's like "Shoot the Thrill" shooting my old 135, 155 and Beeman Mach 12.5 but after shooting them you have to wait till your eyes refocus to see if you hit anything. Wonder if Krale in Holland could get one.
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Like I said above, the Artemis GR1600 .177 cal shoots 40J only in manufacturer's claims / dreams. User-measured ME's are closer to 30J.
Magtech AR N2 Extreme .177 cal claims (by manufacturer) to be the fastest spring-powered airgun: 1600 fps. 5.4 gr. alloy pellets have reached around 1480 fps, in reality. That's 35.8 J / 26.3 fpe. I don't think you are going to see a non-PCP .177 cal in production that would beat that. (midweight pellets don't have as much kinetic energy in the N2).
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I don't see 30 fpe attainable with a piston rifle. The gun is limited by swept volume and very short pressure peaks. Also pellet velocities would be supersonic or near supersonic and accuracy would be terrible. Perhaps heavier slugs would bring speeds down to more accurate levels. Typically piston guns don't shoot slugs well. Not to mention a piston gun's power generally decrease as pellet weight increases.
Forgive me I didn't read through the whole thread but I don't see why anyone would want a 30 fpe 177 unless it's a caliber restriction. I believe the only way you can get that kind of power with accuracy is going to be with a PCP shooting well designed and probably heavy slugs.
20 fpe piston guns are twice as difficult to shoot accurately as 12 fpe guns. I can't imagine how hard it would be to shoot a 30 fpe piston gun. Strongest piston gun I ever shot semi accurately was my Rx1 at 24 fpe. That was in 20 caliber which is more efficient and smoother than 177.
Best of luck with your search.
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The Artemis GR1600w is available at Aceros de Hispania in Spain. Shipped here to Geogia, $347.
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A French ad says the SPA Artemis GR1600W shoots 1380 fps and 40J and that's 29.5fpe. According to Pyramyd's computer a 7.33 pellet at 1380fps is 31 fpe. I want one.
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https://youtu.be/Bf7JMtyqgLU
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https://youtu.be/Bf7JMtyqgLU
I see two adjustment screws on the trigger. I saw some ads without the picatinny rail now I see it comes un-mounted in the box. Extra front sight inserts is a plus but I'd scope it. I bet it kick worse than my Beeman Mach 12.5.
Krale has their GR1250S in a plastic stock, adjustable cheek rest, two piece bipod and rails on the side of the forestock, 3x9x40 scope and a big can on the end of the barrel, says it don't do much, 'bout the same price. Recoil might be more manageable.
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A French ad says the SPA Artemis GR1600W shoots 1380 fps and 40J and that's 29.5fpe. According to Pyramyd's computer a 7.33 pellet at 1380fps is 31 fpe. I want one.
Good luck hitting anything with it. Let us know how it works out when your ears stop ringing.
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A French ad says the SPA Artemis GR1600W shoots 1380 fps and 40J and that's 29.5fpe. According to Pyramyd's computer a 7.33 pellet at 1380fps is 31 fpe. I want one.
Good luck hitting anything with it. Let us know how it works out when your ears stop ringing.
And my eyes re-focus and teeth stop rattling.
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Well .17 HMR is non pcp and produces upwards of 200 FPE. :P
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A French ad says the SPA Artemis GR1600W shoots 1380 fps and 40J and that's 29.5fpe. According to Pyramyd's computer a 7.33 pellet at 1380fps is 31 fpe. I want one.
Good luck hitting anything with it. Let us know how it works out when your ears stop ringing.
And my eyes re-focus and teeth stop rattling.
I have discovered that magnum air rifles require HEAVY pellets. My .25 cal Hatsan mod 125 shoots quite pleasantly if I feed it 25.39gr JSB Kings. Conversely, my .22 caliber mod 125 will give you whiplash with 14.3gr CPHP and it still isn’t entirely tamed by the 21gr H&N Baracudas. A magnum .177 is gonna need a 18-20 grain pellet or slug to be manageable. My Hatsans are rather modestly tuned which probably accounts for their ease of shooting. The .22 will make 25 fpe with CPHP but it will loosen your fillings. The .25 makes 27 fpe with the JSBs and I can get 29 fpe with 20.06gr FTT but it’s hard on the gun and on me.
Get a .25 cal wad cutter mold and cast yourself some aluminum pellets. That’l get you 30+ fpe. ::)
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Well .17 HMR is non pcp and produces upwards of 200 FPE. :P
Been trying not to type that since this thread started :)
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Did anything develop from this?
Earlier today I dug out my 177 Hatsan 135 QE vortex to give a once over. Several years ago I replaced the piston seal, using one from ARH and noticed a slight power loss, but no big deal for a 25+fpe .177, Lol. Only 75 to 100 shots through the gun since. I upped the pressure in the ram slightly and plan to test various conical or "slug" type pellets. Currently have some 12.5gr from Nielsen's specialty ammo. Weather in my area put things on hold temporarily. Just curious how things went, if ever pursued.
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I don't have the 135 hatsan, but think that is the best bet to achieve this with a readily available gun.
My benji xl is the most powerful .177 springer I have and it loses fpe as pellet weight goes from 10.5 to 13+.
If I wanted to achieve close to 30 fpe, I would add top hat weight to a hatsan 135 until I found the jsb monsters or seneca hunters peaking in fpe in relation to top hat weights.
If I had a hatsan gas spring rather than coil, I'd pump that thing up to max pressure knowing it would break sooner and see what happens, but my money would be on the coil spring and top hat experimentation yielding better fpe than the jacked up gas spring with no top hat.
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I have a Hatsan 135 Vortex in .177 that will do very close to that and may exceed with the right ammo IIR.
OK I shot some .177 NSA 12.5 gr. slugs out of the 135, over the crono, just over legal FT energy with 20.25 foot pounds of muzzle energy at 854 FPS avg.
Bet them 50 yard shots in the wind will be easier ;) They do fit the bore nice and snug, but can push in with thumb with out extreme effort.
I know this is an older topic, but my findings are very similar to yours with the Hatsan 135. I had a peak velocity of 879fps with .177 NSA 12.5gr, but averaged 867-868fps. The slugs did not fit as tightly in the breech as I prefer, but were just snug. The shot cycle is one solid and quick thump... if anything a bit too quick, maybe getting possible blow by? Then again, the shot cycle is the same with 10.5gr or lighter pellets, which all seem too light for the forces at work. Initial accuracy seemed promising, but more testing under better conditions is needed. I should add, energy/velocity with pellets were much higher, thinking skirted type ammo might be the way to go vs. dished base. Maybe JSB knock outs?
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Artemis GR1600w - The bore and stroke length 29mm x 130mm. Swept Volume 85.8cc