GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: Joey on September 11, 2020, 03:58:41 PM
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I'm having fun with my new/old R7. One of the most accurate rifles I've ever had. Except........the first 4 or 5 shots from sitting overnight are off about 3/8" or so at 25 yards. After that, it's pretty much one hole groups. Has anyone had the same experience? It could be a shooter error, but the shots seem to be spot on. You can kinda tell if it's you are not when you've shot a springer a lot.
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The joy of springers :) LOL
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The variation could be the first shots warming the barrel slightly or it could be the change in temperature between the outside air and the inside air. That can affect the scope as well as the gun itself. Some guns vary noticeably while others do not appear to.
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HAve three main contenders:
1.Human error...it just takes a few shots to get back into a groove.
2. Lube distribution.
3. Warming up internallly,which would include warming/fexing the piston seal into a better seal.
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Joey, I'm sure no expert and I shoot several different springers. It usally takes me more than 3 shots to get use to the trigger. Yep, it's me every time.
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I used to have that issue and occasionally still do. Until I become confident that all the screws are remaining properly torqued on a rifle, i check them with a FAT wrench.
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Lube warming up.
AND / OR
Piston seal warming up and becoming more compliant.
There is another thread asking about springer storage orientation: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=177886.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=177886.0)
Muzzle up or down; or flat on the side or bottom. If the gun is heavily lubed, some component of the lube might "creep" under gravity and change the behavior until the lube is redistributed by shooting x number of shots.
The above seems unlikely for a factory lubed springer with 2000+ shots through it. If the owner lubed it, that resets the possibilities.
Most likely thermal effect as suggested above. Perhaps old grease is thicker and more prone to thinning over a few shots, from energy dissipated in shearing that thicker grease.
Hector Medina suggests that a well used springer that is stored for a few months may cause the piston seal to assume a less than ideal shape. That shooting a few shots is required to restore it. My understanding is that once you are shooting perhaps a handfull of shots every day, that this restoration is complete and that stability would have returned. Perhaps there are variations of this effect.
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Gremlins. Springers are notorious for them. :P
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Check tighten the stock screws. A must for all springers as first order diagnostics.
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Check tighten the stock screws. A must for all springers as first order diagnostics.
Boy howdy, that's the truth! When people get on the World Wide Web to complain about poor accuracy from rifles that we all know aren't thataway, that's my first thought! The second thought is that they don't know how to shoot a springer very well!
OP, I'm not suggesting that the second issue has anything to do with what you're reporting!!!
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Time to start contemplating a PCP ;) if you don't have one yet ;D
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The trigger is the one place to vastly improve grouping.
However, for the most part, I've found a good springer like the R7 or larger does have "shifting impact" to some degree at some time. The biggest thing to have down pat is THE TRIGGER! Do you know it BEFORE having to take a shot or two to "find" it--the sweet trigger spot that you know ahead of having to find out again!
I've got a few springers (HW) that actually have different trigger feels and it's not because they have to all be the same--it just worked out that way while I lightened them.
If I have "one" rifle that I KNOW everytime I pull the trigger it's the D54 .20 H.S. which is extremely tuned.
There is no match for that trigger. But all HW triggers are great and relatively easy to adjust to one's best shooting choice!
;D
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You just need to get warmed up and back in the zone.
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I'm having fun with my new/old R7. One of the most accurate rifles I've ever had. Except........the first 4 or 5 shots from sitting overnight are off about 3/8" or so at 25 yards. After that, it's pretty much one hole groups. Has anyone had the same experience? It could be a shooter error, but the shots seem to be spot on. You can kinda tell if it's you are not when you've shot a springer a lot.
Yep! When my .177 HW springers were "factory sealed" and lubed with molly paste it was common to need a half dozen "warm up shots" to stabilize the poi. This was especially true of the older design HW piston seals with the thin parachute edge that required about a dozen shots to stabilize the poi.
Since replacing the factory piston seal with a home fitted oring sealed piston cap and lubing with non-dieseling Dupont Krytox grease "not so much". Here is a target shot two days apart with my .177 oring sealed HW95 without any rezoing for the second day shooting. No difference in the poi except for variations except for those due to my "bucket and sticks" shooting style........
(https://i.imgur.com/krGzp2Ll.jpg)
Anywhoo....it is normal for "piston guns" to require some "warm up shots" before shooting to stabilize the poi.
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Well, I'm gonna take a guess and blame it on the lube distribution. Today, it shot 3/8" high for 5 shots and went right back to zero. This next thing blew me away with the R7. I've shot about 600 rounds with the 8.4 Air Arms pellets and switched today to the 8.44 JSB Exact. After the 5 high shots, the POI settled down to the EXACT same as the Air Arms!! No need to re-zero. That NEVER happened with my Diana 34.
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Yeah, I always freak out when I pull one of my Break barrels out and POI is nowhere near where I left it,....then I remember, keep shooting and eventually it gets back in place.
As I said, I don't take springers to seriously, consider then a step above toys.
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The trouble with springers is the spring. Great lump of metal flogging about.
I have just put a gas piston (from Custom Airseals in Australia) in my old CFX. A really worthwhile up grade.
I now have three Gamo gas piston underlever rifles.
A good Gamo can shoot as well a a Weihrauch. Bit of fettling needed though but good fun to do.
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Couple of years ago, tried removing the human part of springers to see if they would still shoot "odd"from a cold start.
Did the "normal" tricks foer a springer (at least mine). Cleaned, screws tight,pivots lubed, etc. IF the stock showed it held the metal uneven/stressed,that was adjusted/bedded until they sat in the stock level and stress free.
Each one was just left alone for a couple of weeks after being sighted in.
Basic untuned cheaper springers.
The shot from the same soft test rig that only had me pinching the trigger with thumb and finger....no other human contact.
Was enough to convience me something was going on besides the shooter adapting/remembering how to shoot that springer.
(https://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/springers/e0889703-444c-46c5-a250-6a2979fec786.jpg) (https://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/springers/e0889703-444c-46c5-a250-6a2979fec786.jpg.html)
(https://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/springers/1ead9058-c99a-47a7-b14b-649264739bf3.jpg) (https://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/springers/1ead9058-c99a-47a7-b14b-649264739bf3.jpg.html)
(https://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/springers/1c843466-20b3-4fa3-90b7-28a8a7763ac8.jpg) (https://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/springers/1c843466-20b3-4fa3-90b7-28a8a7763ac8.jpg.html)
The Crosman NT was new to me then, wasn't broken in as well....but it shot pretty well (still does)...so I worked with it more than the others.
(Was also getting "pooed on" by other reviews at the time, and I really didn't find accuracy to be bad.)
Chronographing did show a change form a "cold start"...not as much as I expected,but consider that a change in velocity with a springer is also a change in the recoil/vibration pattern....which is worth a lot more than just achange in velocity (likein a recoiless PCP).
(https://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/springers/555427cd-d1b0-48e6-b1e1-64b7d7d0776a.jpg) (https://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/springers/555427cd-d1b0-48e6-b1e1-64b7d7d0776a.jpg.html)
So am still of the opinion that there is more of a mechanical change going on...lube sdistribution,bedding shifting, seal felxability,etc.....that we can just blame on re-learing how they want to be held.
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I'm going with Ribbonstone's theory. I appreciate your due diligence, Ribbonstone.