GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: Fate on September 10, 2020, 11:49:22 AM
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Tuning my Marauder has used many pellets, more than I've ever shot in any other activity. My favorite JSB Heavies have run through my gun like water and, getting low, I ordered up a bunch from PA. They were backordered. Having heard many times that the FX and AA 18s were nothing more than rebranded JSB 18s and finding them in stock I ordered a bunch of those, which came in a few days ago. Today a PA email advised the JSBs had shipped and should be here Friday, so now I'll have no pellet worries for a while.
This morning, starting a new tune after some mods inside my Mrod which changed things enough to warrant some significant retuning, and being on my last tin of JSB 18s, I opened one of the tins of FX 18 grain pellets. It was immediately obvious that the FX pellets were NOT like the JSB 18s in the tin beside it.
In fact, they're almost night and day different. If I mixed the two tins I could separate them easily. The not only look different, they feel different. And, other than their weight which my HF scale cannot differentiate, they measure the same 18 grains. (I need a better scale and caliper, this "hobby's" tab is growing longer every day.)
The FX pellets are visually and tactilely smoother, for one. So much so it almost feels like they have graphite or moly on them. It's apparent when either looking at them or running a finger over them.
The FX pellets base is filled closer to the skirt bottom, with about the same difference as that between the JSB 18.13s and 15.89s. It's a striking difference that made me wonder how that could be and both weigh the same, so I measured them... again with a tool with limited accuracy, my HF digital caliper. The FX is shorter than the JSB and the shape is different.
I have mixed thoughts about the pellets... about what to expect performance wise. The FXs are shorter with their mass more centered whereas the JSBs are longer with a more forward weight bias... based on my observations. Pellet flight is too complicated when fps, twist rates, wind, and guns are considered to say which is the best... for me. It will be interesting when tuning turns into shooting. Right now I'm just glad to have a nice supply of pellets.
After all the comments over the years about the FX, AA, and JSB pellets being the same... either what I received is something new or there are a bunch of people who don't look very close at their pellets, because the AA pellets upon a quick look at those, and the FX pellets I have examined closely are VERY different pellets from JSBs. Side by side the FX pellets make the JSBs look almost crude and unfinished.
I've shot only one each over the chrony and they produced the exact same fps. It'll be downrange where any difference will be noted... if there are any.
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JSB makes their pellets for them having the equipment to do so, but are supplied the molds by those other manufactures. They are not the same molds.
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FWIW: I have no experience with FX pellets, but run the 177 AA 10.3 over the JSB, because they seemed to provide slightly more accuracy. Shape is the same. A quick measure of two pellets each, produced same length and head dia.
On the 22 18.1g, run the JSB's but don't remember if that was driven by any accuracy difference or just an initial purchase of lots of tins. Shape looks the same. Of the sample of two each, the head size same, but JSBs slightly longer at 0.311: vs 0.305". Close enough that it could be just a lot/run difference.
It was my understanding that the pellets are the same, but AA has their own molds/dies. But, that was just hearsay from a post.
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As with John, I get measurably improved accuracy results with the AA 16s vs, the JSB 15.9s in two of my guns, but I can't tell the two apart. I don't see any real measurable difference in accuracy on the 18.1s.
I have not tried the FX pellets.
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The jury is still out as far as accuracy because so far they've all been shot at 10 m, but my impression is the JSBs may be better. Will see as soon as this infernal tuning is done.
But the FX 18s load like butter. The JSBs always go in with a pop as they seat. Also, back to back chrony results show the FX 18s in my gun are consistently faster than the JSB 18s... by as much as 10 fps.
And again, they're night and day different to me. I can differentiate them visually and by how they feel... especially when loading them in my single-shot tray. They're slick.
Maybe I've been looking too closely too long at pellets? :o
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With my .22 Synrod, I have great luck with the AA 16gr with better accuracy compared to JSBs 15.89gr, but terrible luck with the AA 18 gr., but get excellent results with the JSB 18gr.
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Over the years, the JSB label and AA labels have always flip-flopped at various times in terms of accuracy, dimensions, and sometimes even obvious visual differences (depth/thickness of skirt for example). I chalk it up to luck of the draw as dies wear and are replaced with new dies. However it does seem like I have gotten slightly better results on average with the Air Arms 8.4gr and 10.3gr in .177, and the 15.9gr in .22.
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To say I am very interested in this thread is an understatement!
I have ran almost out of my JSB stash... 15.89's I have about 25 pellets left, of the 18.3 none.
A couple weeks ago I got 2 tins of the FX pellets in both sizes because they were available.
SOMEWHERE, I have a partial tin of AA's. I save my empty tins and the AA isn't there so I just to locate it.
In my past experience the AA did not perform as well as the JSB, that is why I have a partial tin MIA.... the FX is totally new to me.
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To say I am very interested in this thread is an understatement!
I have ran almost out of my JSB stash... 15.89's I have about 25 pellets left, of the 18.3 none.
A couple weeks ago I got 2 tins of the FX pellets in both sizes because they were available.
SOMEWHERE, I have a partial tin of AA's. I save my empty tins and the AA isn't there so I just to locate it.
In my past experience the AA did not perform as well as the JSB, that is why I have a partial tin MIA.... the FX is totally new to me.
I ran the JSB 25.39 and the AA 25.4s through my 600mm STX Superior liner today for the first time shooting groups at 52 yards. The JSBs drilled a hole just slightly bigger than the pellet diameter. The AAs were very close to that as well, but maybe 2 pellet diameters wide instead, still very tight groups. These were running just a tad over 900 fps. The 34gr MKIIs followed with bigger groups around a 1/2". Get your hands on a Superior liner if you want to shoot pellets straight...
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My understanding and I think it was also stated by Steve at AEAC is that the different JSB rebrands FX, Air Arms... are produced on there own dies. There not all just put in one pile and then into different tins.
Say for example they have 10 machines making 18.13gr pellets. 1-6 are JSB and 7&8 are AA and 9&10 are FX.
So I think it’s a good idea to try each of them and see. You may find one specific brand that your barrel loves.
He also made it sound like they are not made to any different specifications set by the other brand just that they have separate dies. Which I’m sure all have there own unique fingerprint if you will.
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I have found my .25 cal Crown 380mm barrel preforms about equal shooting JSB and AA 25.4’s with a slight edge to the AA a times. I’ve test numerous batches but these day I just buy the AA’s and as a bonus there $3 cheaper a tin.
And just when you think you’ve got it all figured out you get a bad batch and you tear your gun apart and overthink everything. I always like to keep a tin of nice shooting pellets just to have a good baseline.
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I have found my .25 cal Crown 380mm barrel preforms about equal shooting JSB and AA 25.4’s with a slight edge to the AA a times. I’ve test numerous batches but these day I just buy the AA’s and as a bonus there $3 cheaper a tin.
And just when you think you’ve got it all figured out you get a bad batch and you tear your gun apart and overthink everything. I always like to keep a tin of nice shooting pellets just to have a good baseline.
I suppose it shows my relative inexperience at this air gun game, but the bolded is a new concept for me... one I'll practice from now on. Heretofore, while I've been shooting pellets well over half a century, my selection of gun and pellets wasn't diverse enough either by choice or the way things were to have imagined doing this. Now, with the many guns and pellets available combined with my own small but diverse air gun choices, I'm seeing that the pellet has become its own thing, a separate but important component in the game that has its own set of qualities that need quantified.
Sure, everyone's heard and repeated, "find the pellet your gun likes." But that's a vague unbounded recommendation and mantra. There's no science nor "numbers" connected to it. Maybe I've missed it or maybe it's not there... but I've been doing a lot of searching for various factors relating to pellets these days and haven't come across any specific and complete compendium of pellet information wherein all answers to pellets can be found. This data is not only scattered everywhere, like so many other things what is found isn't finite... with either diametrically opposing data, or so broad a spectrum that it has no more value than saying, "you'll know when you find it," is.
What I saw with my recent use of FX and AA 18 gr pellets, after relative long time use of JSBs has opened my eyes. This thread's diversity alone verifies the lack of consensual agreement with definitive pellet information. Guns have a long list over which we may pour as we make our decisions. With pellets we're lucky to have more than their general weight to go by... and even that metric, along with any other metric like "head size," is too often never found to be what is delivered. It's like mail ordered brides... without making any further analogy and letting imagination supply your own.
The pellets I have are as different as night and day despite "coming from the same factory but from different molds" and "mold wear," etc, etc ad nauseam. About as good as saying women are all the same in the dark, to me.
So be it. But I shouldn't be surprised. I'm finding almost everything I try to pin down floating in the same amorphous, opinion-based, fog of mystery. It's like air guns are witchcraft or voodoo, where it's what's in one's mind that defines the reality.
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❓ Question: How can we shooters control the performance of the pellets we buy, and those we already own?
❗➔ Answer:
I'm finding almost everything I try to pin down floating in the same amorphous, opinion-based, fog of mystery.
It's like air guns are witchcraft or voodoo, where it's what's in one's mind that defines the reality.
Jeff,
I hope I didn't misrepresent you there by inserting the question.
I found your post both incisive and humorous. Such posts are rare on the forums. Thanks! 😊
I share your frustration — there are so many opinions out there, and a lot of it is based on reposted hearsay.
Or based on "tests" where the sample size is a 5-shot group with a discounted flyer.
Or where the conditions have not been controlled for.
➔ That make the test results not really trustworthy. 😟
On the bright side: 😊
👍🏼 Over at Aigun Nation there is a guy that is trying to do it better.
He is testing if it is true what many slug crack shots are proclaiming: "Slugs shoot better at very high velocities."
I forget how many hundreds (thousands) of shots he's been firing at different velocities. His results are surprising, I would say. 👍🏼
Of course, our very own* Bob Sterne is an example of testing and calculating and getting to the scientific bottom of things.
*Well, Bob, we as GTA members don't "own" you — we're just your faithful followers. 😊
Subscriber, Ballisticboy, and ... (sorry, my memory locked up, I'm not coming up with your names right now!), these are others who try to back up what they say with hard data and/or math.
Thanks to all of you! 👍🏼
Matthias
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It seems to me that if several guns of the same model were "blueprinted" to identical specs and closely monitored for pressure etc. then i would expect most pellets in the same tin, sorted for relative consistency to perform equally well.
Otherwise too many variables and inconsistencies with gun, ammo, weather to expect anything other than find your guns favorite pellet. And then that may only hold true for a single tin or a single lot.
I personally ok with this.
By the way, I have never shot FX pellets but I find AAs in 177 or 22 to shoot better in most cases with the guns I have than JSBs I have notdone stringent testing of this.
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❓ Question: How can we shooters control the performance of the pellets we buy, and those we already own?
❗➔ Answer:
I'm finding almost everything I try to pin down floating in the same amorphous, opinion-based, fog of mystery.
It's like air guns are witchcraft or voodoo, where it's what's in one's mind that defines the reality.
Jeff,
I hope I didn't misrepresent you there by inserting the question.
I found your post both incisive and humorous. Such posts are rare on the forums. Thanks! 😊
I share your frustration — there are so many opinions out there, and a lot of it is based on reposted hearsay.
Or based on "tests" where the sample size is a 5-shot group with a discounted flyer.
Or where the conditions have not been controlled for.
➔ That make the test results not really trustworthy. 😟
On the bright side: 😊
👍🏼 Over at Aigun Nation there is a guy that is trying to do it better.
He is testing if it is true what many slug crack shots are proclaiming: "Slugs shoot better at very high velocities."
I forget how many hundreds (thousands) of shots he's been firing at different velocities. His results are surprising, I would say. 👍🏼
Of course, our very own* Bob Sterne is an example of testing and calculating and getting to the scientific bottom of things.
*Well, Bob, we as GTA members don't "own" you — we're just your faithful followers. 😊
Subscriber, Ballisticboy, and ... (sorry, my memory locked up, I'm not coming up with your names right now!), these are others who try to back up what they say with hard data and/or math.
Thanks to all of you! 👍🏼
Matthias
And here I thought I did a Lot of testing with results on slugs, designs and showing accuracy different different barrels and velocities. LOL. Shooting 300 to 500 slugs a day and posting results when anything interesting is learned in different brand barrels, types of barrels chokes, no chokes, factory condition bores, lapped, fire lapped and polished bores, modded slugs, I figured was the way to go. Guess not. LOL! ;D
The reason there is no hard statement regarding "find a pellet a barrel likes" is just that. There
ARE NO hard and fast rules. No one can do it for you. Each barrel is an entity into itself. All are different. It is up to yo to find the perfect combo. "If" one exist!
Slugs are vastly different and even more difficult. With oddly, most shooters totally ignoring what has been learned.
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Mike/ Knifemaker, 😊
you are most certainly in that group of quality guys we have here at GTA!! Testing, advising, modding, breaking new ground! 👍🏼👍🏼
I'm sorry for not mentioning you and several other guys — my memory sometimes just locks up when it comes to names...! 🤦🏻♂️
Matthias
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❓ Question: How can we shooters control the performance of the pellets we buy, and those we already own?
❗➔ Answer:
I'm finding almost everything I try to pin down floating in the same amorphous, opinion-based, fog of mystery.
It's like air guns are witchcraft or voodoo, where it's what's in one's mind that defines the reality.
Jeff,
I hope I didn't misrepresent you there by inserting the question.
I found your post both incisive and humorous. Such posts are rare on the forums. Thanks! 😊
I share your frustration — there are so many opinions out there, and a lot of it is based on reposted hearsay.
Or based on "tests" where the sample size is a 5-shot group with a discounted flyer.
Or where the conditions have not been controlled for.
➔ That make the test results not really trustworthy. 😟
On the bright side: 😊
👍🏼 Over at Aigun Nation there is a guy that is trying to do it better.
He is testing if it is true what many slug crack shots are proclaiming: "Slugs shoot better at very high velocities."
I forget how many hundreds (thousands) of shots he's been firing at different velocities. His results are surprising, I would say. 👍🏼
Of course, our very own* Bob Sterne is an example of testing and calculating and getting to the scientific bottom of things.
*Well, Bob, we as GTA members don't "own" you — we're just your faithful followers. 😊
Subscriber, Ballisticboy, and ... (sorry, my memory locked up, I'm not coming up with your names right now!), these are others who try to back up what they say with hard data and/or math.
Thanks to all of you! 👍🏼
Matthias
And here I thought I did a Lot of testing with results on slugs, designs and showing accuracy different different barrels and velocities. LOL. Shooting 300 to 500 slugs a day and posting results when anything interesting is learned in different brand barrels, types of barrels chokes, no chokes, factory condition bores, lapped, fire lapped and polished bores, modded slugs, I figured was the way to go. Guess not. LOL! ;D
The reason there is no hard statement regarding "find a pellet a barrel likes" is just that. There
ARE NO hard and fast rules. No one can do it for you. Each barrel is an entity into itself. All are different. It is up to yo to find the perfect combo. "If" one exist!
Slugs are vastly different and even more difficult. With oddly, most shooters totally ignoring what has been learned.
On that note Mike I want to size my slugs for my Nova Liberty, I know there was a good tutorial on doing this, can you point me in the right direction?
Thanks
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My tins of 15 and 18 FX are beating the JSB's in the 3 guns I have shot them in so far.
Just sayin... I want MORE!
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By the time I read any thread on GTA, there are already lots of good replies, but I thought I would add my experience.
JSB and AA pellets are all excellent pellets that shoot well in (almost) all my pellet guns. I have lots of JSB and AA because they are not always available and I buy pellets in bulk when they are on sale. I have never tried FX pellets.
They are not identical to each other and clearly made from different molds. They may all be made at the same factory and I have heard that rumor many times. My current opinion is JSB are great, AA are slightly better. I would expect FX are at least as good as either JSB or AA if not slightly better.
If I'm finishing up a tin of JSB, and switching to AA, I check my zero with the AA pellets and typically must adjust my zero a little for the differerent pellet, but then they will shoot so similar to the other, I can't really tell the difference in hunting. Trajectory is essentially the same and my mildot distances are the same. I take/make lots of longer range shots on pests - 60 to 130 yards, so I need a reliable trajectory.
AA tend to be a little less expensive where I buy, so I'm happy to buy them instead of JSB.
I only had one gun (a 177) that shot AA 10.3g well, but not JSB 10.3g. I buy both in all three calibers: 25, 22, and 177.
Ray
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By the time I read any thread on GTA, there are already lots of good replies, but I thought I would add my experience.
JSB and AA pellets are all excellent pellets that shoot well in (almost) all my pellet guns. I have lots of JSB and AA because they are not always available and I buy pellets in bulk when they are on sale. I have never tried FX pellets.
They are not identical to each other and clearly made from different molds. They may all be made at the same factory and I have heard that rumor many times. My current opinion is JSB are great, AA are slightly better. I would expect FX are at least as good as either JSB or AA if not slightly better.
If I'm finishing up a tin of JSB, and switching to AA, I check my zero with the AA pellets and typically must adjust my zero a little for the differerent pellet, but then they will shoot so similar to the other, I can't really tell the difference in hunting. Trajectory is essentially the same and my mildot distances are the same. I take/make lots of longer range shots on pests - 60 to 130 yards, so I need a reliable trajectory.
AA tend to be a little less expensive where I buy, so I'm happy to buy them instead of JSB.
I only had one gun (a 177) that shot AA 10.3g well, but not JSB 10.3g. I buy both in all three calibers: 25, 22, and 177.
Ray
Ray I'm sending this reply because I can't reply to your PM's on account that your mailbox is full in regards to casting your own, it's the only way I can send you a message.