GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: Ex.Magnum on September 09, 2020, 10:57:27 AM
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In fact, to be complete, the above title and question should read :
Which are your nowadays .177 and .22 shots-per-fil-champions with minimal spread between high and low ?
Recently saw Kral sort of claiming the Guiness Book of Records-title with its new Kral Super Duty :
850 shots in .177 (at a claimed average of 900fps)
and
720 shots in .22 (at a claimed average of 900fps)
on a 250bar fil of an 1425cc air supply.
(https://i.imgur.com/jGFN74h.jpg)
The most shots i m getting, are realised with my .22 Kalibrgun Carbine delivering 74 high power shots (of around 930fps) on a 250bar fil of a 250cc tube, with an extreme spread of 3.1m/s (10fps).
(https://i.imgur.com/75I0cMB.jpg)
Because accuracy indeed matters, spread also matters. That s why i m mentioning it.
So my question to you guys :
What airgun do you think is the nowadays “max shots per fil” champion, in 2 categories :
1. In bottled airguns
and
2. in tubed airguns
Your insights please.
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Not having the pellets weight shot that KRAL data / numbers really mien little.
Rather than a Shot Count ... look at EFFICIENCY in "FPE/CI" or metric equivalent.
In this way you can have any storage volume and knowing power / speed your working with come up with fairly accurate shot count potential.
Personally have .177 & .22's that run in the 1.6 to 1.8 FPE/CU range for efficiency making modesty high power.
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Holy cow !!!!!! ....that gun got air.
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Holy cow !!!!!! ....that gun got air.
Not to mention almost 11lbs, I assume before scope, rings, bipod, etc.
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"Beans and franks"....something suggestive about that dual tank set up...something from the movie, "Something about Mary".
Yeah...I'm like 13 at heart....but will still give you a cross-eyed look when you rub down the external surfaces with a greasy rag.
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"Beans and franks"....something suggestive about that dual tank set up...something from the movie, "Something about Mary".
Yeah...I'm like 13 at heart....but will still give you a cross-eyed look when you rub down the external surfaces with a greasy rag.
It has 3 total though.
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I was pretty impressed with the shot count for the Red Wolf Standard in 20fpe that I reviewed earlier this year.
I had to make a power level to be field target legal......and it took a considerable amount of tinkering with the programmer.......but all said and done I think I was getting 330 shots from a 480cc bottle, with JSB 14.35 (.22) @ an average of 790fps (just barely <20fpe). If I remember correctly, the ES for those 330 shots was 19fps on the final version of the electronics programming.
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wow that's ridiculous. at that size and weight, might as well tether.
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3 total...great...always wanted 3.
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😅
Probably still only comes with 2 magazines
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At 11 pounds for just the gun it doesn't interest me. Refilling isn't that big of deal. I have a brod that shoots the 25.39gr pellets around 850-860 for 130 shots and an armada .177 that's low power and I'm getting 165 shots around 725fps with the 10.34gr hades pellets.
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My Thomas L gets 90 -95 usable shots at 19.5 Ft/lbs
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I was pretty impressed with the shot count for the Red Wolf Standard in 20fpe that I reviewed earlier this year.
…..but all said and done I think I was getting 330 shots from a 480cc bottle, with JSB 14.35 (.22) @ an average of 790fps (just barely <20fpe). If I remember correctly, the ES for those 330 shots was 19fps…
I have a brod that shoots the 25.39gr pellets around 850-860 for 130 shots and an armada .177 that's low power and I'm getting 165 shots around 725fps with the 10.34gr hades pellets.
My Thomas L gets 90 -95 usable shots at 19.5 Ft/lbs
Thx Franklink , bear air , dan_house.
These are the kinds of numbers that really interest me. Much appreciated.
As mentioned above one of my rifles is a Kalibrgun carbine in its most recent setting delivering well above 70 medium-high-ish power shots down from 250bar to reg pressure, with fairly low ES. If I m willing to go to 260bar fill pressure, the Kalibrgun will even provide 85-86 shots at around 930fps but at the cost of an ES at least doubling up. That's the part i m looking to avoid.
My quest is all about finding an airgun, -preferably .177 but .22 will also do- “potent” enough to deliver +100 high power shots at around 950fps with Monster JSB’s (or even slugs if the barrel permits it), while still maintaining an as low as possible ES. And if at all possible, on a tube resevervoir, like is the case with my Kalibrgun Carbine.
I ve been looking around but so far no luck in finding that particular +100 shotcount airgun, allowing to shoot low BC projectiles in (fairly) flat trajectories up to 65-80 yards.
So I thought that perhaps any of you guys at GTA might be able to direct me towards such +100 one ?
All assistance much appreciated.
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My bone-stock Gen2 fortitude is pretty darn efficient. 70+ shots at 710 FPS in .22- and I still wasn't dropping off the regulator. There's room for more efficiency, but I'd say Crosman done me right.
I'm not as worried about max shots since air is mostly free, though I have a HUMA reg sitting around that I really need to install in my Leshiy. Only problem is I'm torn between downtuning the Leshiy in .22 for shot-count versus up-tuning in .25 (or even .30) for smackdown power. It depends on whether some coyote we've seen stick to the area or keep moving south.
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That's easy enough to determine Peter, the ones with roller skates and acme jet packs are moving South... the ones without are sticking around! LOL, sorry I digress.
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Uragan in 177 (single bottom) claim 400 shots at 17ft-lbs
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Anyone here who has experience with the Kral Super Jumbo on 15,5 gr and 18 gr Nielsen slugs in .177 ?
I wonder what kind of shotcount can be expected from that settting?
(https://i.imgur.com/KwyevcS.png)
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In fact, to be complete, the above title and question should read :
Which are your nowadays .177 and .22 shots-per-fil-champions with minimal spread between high and low ?
Recently saw Kral sort of claiming the Guiness Book of Records-title with its new Kral Super Duty :
850 shots in .177 (at a claimed average of 900fps)
and
720 shots in .22 (at a claimed average of 900fps)
on a 250bar fil of an 1425cc air supply.
(https://i.imgur.com/jGFN74h.jpg)
The most shots i m getting, are realised with my .22 Kalibrgun Carbine delivering 74 high power shots (of around 930fps) on a 250bar fil of a 250cc tube, with an extreme spread of 3.1m/s (10fps).
(https://i.imgur.com/75I0cMB.jpg)
Because accuracy indeed matters, spread also matters. That s why i m mentioning it.
So my question to you guys :
What airgun do you think is the nowadays “max shots per fil” champion, in 2 categories :
1. In bottled airguns
and
2. in tubed airguns
Your insights please.
I could actually see the ground squirrel shooters in Utah or Oregon setting at a bench with a bunch of mags going at it with this. For sure not a woods walker. CF bottles would sure be a plus.
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My champions are ....
My regulated .177 M-rod shooting JSB 10.3 @ 900 fps ..... 90 to 95 shots off the factory air tube of @ 190cc ( 3k fill )
Daystate Airwolf .20 shooting JSB 13.7 @ 920 fps ..... 230-240 shots off a 500cc bottle ( 3.3k fill )
Scott S
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If I had any reason to need more shots per fill,could figure out a way to get them. Simplest (and the way that Kral in the first post) did that was by adding more air....more tanks, more volume,higher pressure.
Basically promoting how much farther a car will drive with a 50 gallon gas tank than a 15 gallon gas tank.
Currently, simple rifles that manage 200-240 shots per fill up, but more like 12-13 pounds with one 13cuin (215cc) 3K tanks.
So far,haven't had any burning need for more than 200 shots per PCP fill....that's what springers are for.
It's not that much trouble to refill them the night before. In my current use as "back-garden defenders", they typically get filled once every few months (but it is nice to have them ready-to-go).
In the past, they've served as family-farm-picknick rifles, giving every one who wants to play a chance at being the top shooter and win a prize (anything from a 5th of good Burbon to gift certificate).
(Actually,,,it's an in-law's 1840's plantation...but that is to be so politically incorrect these days.)
At home,would just sling a big tank (regulated air or co2) under the bench and tether it ....which gives both,super long shot counts from one place OR the ability to get around and move with less shots.
But if this is a challenge,could figure a way to getmore than that and still be borederline man-portable.
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My bone-stock Gen2 fortitude is pretty darn efficient. 70+ shots at 710 FPS in .22- and I still wasn't dropping off the regulator. There's room for more efficiency, but I'd say Crosman done me right.
I'm not as worried about max shots since air is mostly free, though I have a HUMA reg sitting around that I really need to install in my Leshiy. Only problem is I'm torn between downtuning the Leshiy in .22 for shot-count versus up-tuning in .25 (or even .30) for smackdown power. It depends on whether some coyote we've seen stick to the area or keep moving south.
Yeah, mostly free, well, until ya start compressing it that is. OUCH!!! ;)
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What i ve been looking for when starting this topic,
Is a fairly air-efficient airgun
1. shooting high BC projectiles in a flat trajectory (hence at higher power levels)
2. in .22 with the lighter slugs such as 17,5gr NSA, 20,2gr NSA
3. or in .177 with 18gr NSA, 15,5gr NSA, or even 13,43gr Redesigned Monster JSB’s
In this context,
I ve been wondering if a Kral Super Jumbo barrel would tolerate the Nielsen slugs, launching them with accuracy at 60-65m targets (about 70yards) and beyond.
Anyone ever shot NSA slugs from a Kral Jumbo or Super Jumbo ?
Anyone here who has experience with the Kral Super Jumbo on 15,5 gr and 18 gr Nielsen slugs in .177 ?
I wonder what kind of shotcount can be expected from that settting?
(https://i.imgur.com/KwyevcS.png)
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My brother has the Kral Putbull.
750cc tanks.
On med. Power I believe its over 150 shots in the powerband with 14 grain .22.
High power setting is just over 100 shots.
Not sure what low power shot count is.
My gauntlet with the stock 21ft lb setting in. 22 got 92 shots on the regulator.
Added a 22ci tank and increased reg pressure I now get 87 shots at 28 ft lbs.
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It doesn't matter what tank/tube size is, the bottom line is OP is looking for efficiency meaning shots-per-fill using slugs without stating anything about the power level. Slugs are typically heavier, thus need more air than pellets to go at a certain velocity, thus would >generally< not be as efficient for lengthening shot-count.
so a lower-power airgun that is shooting mild pellets at a mild velocity, like my Gen 2 Fortitude using 14-grain .22 wadcutters at 690 FPS- gets a whole bucket of shots very accurately using that smallish airtube.
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Really hope the Super Jumbo advertized numbers aren't true....the .177 numbers are terrible.
Can't really do an efficiency calculation without an end pressure.....know the volume,start pressure, advertized shot count, advertized energy....just don't know the bottom pressure. Can plug in a guess, but it'sjust a guess.
So looking at it simply.....taking their numbers as true....both the .22 and the .25 are getting something like 4550-4700 foot pounds per fill.
But the poor miss-tuned .177 has to be set up as real air hog to only get 2500 foot poundsper fill.
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Can't really do an efficiency calculation without an end pressure.....know the volume,start pressure, advertized shot count, advertized energy....just don't know the bottom pressure. Can plug in a guess, but it'sjust a guess.
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@Ribbonstone
About the .177 Super Jumbo, I ll just lay this before you, if i may :
1. Suppose I m putting in an Altaros reg set at 120 (end pressure 115bar)
2. Suppose I m opening up the .177 SJ airways, lifting it to 27-28fpe working energy
To your best possible estimate, what in such case is to be expected as a ‘realistic shotcount’ with such a Kral Super Jumbo in .177, shooting 13,46gr Redesigned Monster JSB , or 15,5gr Nielsen, on a 250bar - 500cc bottle?
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Simple way would be to consider the 4600 total energy per fill listed with the .22 and the .25....so if tuned as well as you could to get the .177/ 15.5gr.up to 900,it should be able of close to 160. Thier listes specs. for the .177 just don't seem right (168shots,but 15 foot pounds).
There is an energy penaltywith little bores....but their listed specs are way out of proportion.
Running the calculator.
http://www.calc.sikes.us/1/index.php (http://www.calc.sikes.us/1/index.php)
Plugging in every thing you gave me,except the shot count....just fiddling around with the vel. to get up to your senergy level, then changing the shot count until you get an efficiency of something like 1.3 FPEcuin.....maybe 160 shots.
Which is pretty darn closed to the simple estimate.
HAve no idea if 1700psi (the regulator set) will make it to 27 foot pounds in .177 easily...suspect it would NOT get the efficiency....probably more like 140shots.
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...probably more like 140shots.
Thx Ribbonstone. That was about my raw estimate too, a good 130 shots per fil. (in the best possible scenario that is, and only when shooting 13,43gr JSB Monster). Shooting slugs might perhaps end up in shotcounts lower than i m hoping for, anyway also much depending on technical specs of the Kral barrel.
Have a splendid weekend.
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Using that fill-in-the-blank efficiency calculatorwith best guesses to what we don't kno for sure can give a pretty good apporximation.
Just an estimation...don't expect it be more accurate than 10-15% as we really don't know the efficiency (so just assumed something reasonable).
You had an energy goal rather than a velocity goal,but I do find it takes a bit more air to drive slugs (probably a bearing area/friction thing)to the same speed as pellets of the same weight.
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it takes a bit more air to drive slugs (probably a bearing area/friction thing)to the same speed as pellets of the same weight.
Indeed, furthermore also much depending on technical specs of the Kral barrel, as indicated.
I wonder if there's anyone around on this platform, with any practical experience as to shooting slugs from a Kral Jumbo barrel, a Kral Super Jumbo barrel, or from any other comparable Kral barrel.
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I get around 65 shots with my Talon SS in .22