GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: mrbulk on September 08, 2020, 07:17:25 PM
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After again getting into airguns a little over a month ago (it was supposed to be just CO2 stuff this time) I found myself drawn to PCPs and when I got my first one I realized to be backyard friendly I had to acquire an LDC.
So I got one of them too.
Then I got another PCP, so another LDC and so on. Only to realize today that I now have More LDCs than PCPs...not gonna say how that happened (don't know for sure myself) but I now find myself in the unenviable position of considering buying yet Another PCP gun, just to match up with the number of LDCs I have "in stock". Yikes.
I also tried to figure out a way to test them for performance but still figuring it out. Don't care about the *Actual* db measurement, but just something reliably repeatable so that I can at least test the relative effectiveness of each LDC when compared to one another.
From left to right, the LDCs I currently have are -
Zero db 110
DonnyFL Tanto
Geo (ebay)
Diana/Artemis factory unit
DonnyFL Sumo
Rocker1
They are all surprisingly quiet outside compared to just bare barreled guns, but I would like to set up a better way to test them without any external environmental noise, etc. and get more accurate readings. Testing them indoors with the dollar store sound meter from Amazon had it reading "max" on every shot due to being inside four walls. Oh well...
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Oh yeah, I also have another DonnyFL Sumo, plus a 3D printed baffle system for inside an Avenger (which I just sent off to someone because I don't even have an Avenger!) plus a one-off, fully machined internal metal monocore baffle made by a dear late friend of mine back in Hawaii, that only fits a modded CO2 gun (my avatar pic), so those were not included in the photo.
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I have two LDCs (I just sold my Rocker).
One is for the 1720T/PRod platform (TKO).
Works great.
I have another from AustinB for the Marauder.
I use it for the .177, .22 and .25...
Works great for all three calibers.
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That's why I like to work with one platform, I can have way less LDCs then guns because I can just move them around, I can even use the .30 cal LDCs for the .25 cal guns :) :)
By the way, I've tried a lot of LDCs and the Neil Clauge is sure one to take in consideration, they also look great, are light and the deflex design is very clever where you can keep the LDC shorter past the end of the shroud because you can have the deflexed portion go all the way back to the air tube.
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Outdoors would get you away from objects that reflect a lot sound and get all over the data, but that is a simple way to do it, if you can find the space. Background noise is relative. The fields around me are full of crickets--lots of them. It is background noise, but the shots stand out over the noise. Traffic noise would be more bothersome.
I place a microphone (or my computer) down range and off to the side, making sure it is equidistant to my target/pellet trap and shooting position. Then Audacity (free) gets the recording. Snip out the "dead time" and compare the test shots back to back. Pretty easy.
But, if you want to do it inside...the best substitute I found for a sound studio was a walk-in closet full of clothes. But then you are in a confined space and the mic ends up pretty close to the source, which is still pretty loud and might overload the mic. Now, if you had a full-house basement all to yourself and could put up foam backing and shag carpet...
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It must be National LDC Day... I just got a couple in the mail today too! ;D
Nice collection Charlie! Yep! You may need to add a Neil C. in there... and don’t forget a Huggett!
Looking forward to what kind of test and results you come up with 👍🏻
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Here is the .25 with the AustinB LDC which I also use on the .22 & .177:
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How about one with a chronograph built in! https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=177750.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=177750.0)
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I have a talon p. Got a $16 moderator ("fuel filter"), $2 shipping from China took a couple weeks to get here. It's a big one and utterly quiets the TalonP. Nicely made!
I imagine it would be possible to quiet it further with a different ldc, but not much... the hammer slap and spring and target impact are mostly what I hear.
I am going to keep one as-is, and get another for experimentation with internals.
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I have a talon p. Got a $16 moderator ("fuel filter"), $2 shipping from China took a couple weeks to get here. It's a big one and utterly quiets the TalonP. Nicely made!
I imagine it would be possible to quiet it further with a different ldc, but not much... the hammer slap and spring and target impact are mostly what I hear.
I am going to keep one as-is, and get another for experimentation with internals.
Hey Mister, I kinda LIKE them big ones! Ali Express?
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How about one with a chronograph built in! https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=177750.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=177750.0)
Travis in addition to the tracer plus chrono, are you telling me it has a suppressor function, too? WHOA.
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How about one with a chronograph built in! https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=177750.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=177750.0)
Travis in addition to the tracer plus chrono, are you telling me it has a suppressor function, too? WHOA.
Deadly quiet as I built it but not from the store.
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How about one with a chronograph built in! https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=177750.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=177750.0)
Travis in addition to the tracer plus chrono, are you telling me it has a suppressor function, too? WHOA.
Deadly quiet as I built it but not from the store.
A-hah. Got it *wink*wink* :D
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It must be National LDC Day... I just got a couple in the mail today too! ;D
Nice collection Charlie! Yep! You may need to add a Neil C. in there... and don’t forget a Huggett!
Looking forward to what kind of test and results you come up with 👍🏻
Dave, you got a couple in the mail just today? Okay man, I showed you mine. So now you gotta show me yours... 8)
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Outdoors would get you away from objects that reflect a lot sound and get all over the data, but that is a simple way to do it, if you can find the space. Background noise is relative. The fields around me are full of crickets--lots of them. It is background noise, but the shots stand out over the noise. Traffic noise would be more bothersome.
I place a microphone (or my computer) down range and off to the side, making sure it is equidistant to my target/pellet trap and shooting position. Then Audacity (free) gets the recording. Snip out the "dead time" and compare the test shots back to back. Pretty easy.
But, if you want to do it inside...the best substitute I found for a sound studio was a walk-in closet full of clothes. But then you are in a confined space and the mic ends up pretty close to the source, which is still pretty loud and might overload the mic. Now, if you had a full-house basement all to yourself and could put up foam backing and shag carpet...
Thanks for all the tips, David. Will see what happens outdoors. I did try the walk-in closet method (of course I was in a very, Very small closet) so the confined space comments you made all held true. The dang meter just MAX'd out on every shot...
I used Audacity in music projects before, but never thought about using it for this. I wonder if they have an iPhone app...
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I and some lads in UK use a laptop with 24 bit sound card (for fast sampling not to miss the peak), a microphone and Audacity for analyzing the results. The preferred method is to use the same environment and compare silencers against each other using 5 shot strings without pellets. HW silencer is usually considered a benchmark that other units are compared against. With Audacity you can plot the dB level and frequency giving you nice comparison graphs like this with standard HW against A&M Marksman (frequency on x-axis, negative dB level on Y-axis):
(https://live.staticflickr.com/1953/44353033335_b24865926b_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2azjTzi)marksman4 (https://flic.kr/p/2azjTzi) by abbababbaccc (https://www.flickr.com/photos/11843711@N08/), on Flickr
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Had to delete a post due to rule #12 please keep with in the guidelines in this discussion please. Carry on.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=919.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=919.0)
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Had to delete a post due to rule #12 please keep with in the guidelines in this discussion please. Carry on.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=919.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=919.0)
Cool, thanks... 8)
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I and some lads in UK use a laptop with 24 bit sound card (for fast sampling not to miss the peak), a microphone and Audacity for analyzing the results. The preferred method is to use the same environment and compare silencers against each other using 5 shot strings without pellets. HW silencer is usually considered a benchmark that other units are compared against. With Audacity you can plot the dB level and frequency giving you nice comparison graphs like this with standard HW against A&M Marksman (frequency on x-axis, negative dB level on Y-axis):
(https://live.staticflickr.com/1953/44353033335_b24865926b_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2azjTzi)marksman4 (https://flic.kr/p/2azjTzi) by abbababbaccc (https://www.flickr.com/photos/11843711@N08/), on Flickr
rkr, well I can certainly see that you lads across the pond are INTO this big time! Sure helps when it is perfectly fine to use those devices there, unlike us poor hobbyists here in the states. It allows you guys to create truly in-depth analyses of the many complex aerodynamic aspects to "deadening the airflow" of one's airgun exhaust. Thank you and Cheers!
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Apologies for posting the pic of that "fuel filter" from banggood. Didn't realize there was an injunction on this, won't do it again.
Works surprisingly well even at 50+ fpe. At 10" long it's a big 'un but I imagine that's what the talon p needs as it is loud.
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Apologies for posting the pic of that "fuel filter" from banggood. Didn't realize there was an injunction on this, won't do it again.
Works surprisingly well even at 50+ fpe. At 10" long it's a big 'un but I imagine that's what the talon p needs as it is loud.
No problem. Its all good
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Dave, you got a couple in the mail just today? Okay man, I showed you mine. So now you gotta show me yours... 8)
Nothin you will be too impressed with after seeing your collection... 😆
I snagged one of those same eBay specials to try, I also picked up a used custom job from a forum member, and then just to have bases covered I ordered a DFL Tanto with a cone style end cap
(https://i.postimg.cc/QdhtV6MT/EDEB9-BDC-72-AC-4-DE5-8604-F90-E5464-E7-AC.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)seafood buffet carolina beach (https://thesawmillgrill.com/)
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Dave, you got a couple in the mail just today? Okay man, I showed you mine. So now you gotta show me yours... 8)
Nothin you will be too impressed with after seeing your collection... 😆
I snagged one of those same eBay specials to try, I also picked up a used custom job from a forum member, and then just to have bases covered I ordered a DFL Tanto with a cone style end cap
(https://i.postimg.cc/QdhtV6MT/EDEB9-BDC-72-AC-4-DE5-8604-F90-E5464-E7-AC.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)seafood buffet carolina beach (https://thesawmillgrill.com/)
Coolio! And you know, the eBay unit actually works well. It is so light compared to most the others I had my fears at first, but it quiets things down just like they all do, although to possibly varying degrees which is why I’m still experimenting to find adequate sound measurement ideas that I can afford and have access to.
I’m interested in hearing about that custom one, will ctc you about it privately if you like.
And yes I really do like the form factor in the Tanto w/cone cap. It will taper right into guns with the slimmer barrels like certain pistols etc.
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Here’s about 1/3 of my LDC not on guns already. Some are 3D printed.
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I don’t know much about the custom one other than it was (allegedly?) originally made by a guy in Indiana for the fellow member I purchased it from. It is nicely made of aluminum, and although well worn from use, I can tell it once had a very nice (anodized?) finish that nearly matches the bluing on a steel barrel. This particular one is made for .22 and the front aluminum cap appears to be press-fit (along with any internal components), into the aluminum outer body.
I really do prefer the looks of the tapered / cone style end towards the muzzle for most rifles personally! ;)
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Nice collection Travis! I was doing the math on the other 2/3rds but ran out of fingers! ;D
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From the unattached box. Many are Rocker1 made to fit mrod, prod, Liberty shrouds, a froggy, a NC, and a few "solvent" traps w/ 1/2-20.
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Here’s about 1/3 of my LDC not on guns already. Some are 3D printed.
Oh, only "about a third" Travis? Sure would be curious to see what they all looked like ... inside! ;D
I gotta say though, this 3D printed stuff sure solves a lot of design and assembly issues, just print'em exactly as they're designed. In layers...
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From the unattached box. Many are Rocker1 made to fit mrod, prod, Liberty shrouds, a froggy, a NC, and a few "solvent" traps w/ 1/2-20.
What a nice collection John ... aaaand the LDC photo floodgates are officially opened... ;D
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I also tried to figure out a way to test them for performance but still figuring it out. Don't care about the *Actual* db measurement, but just something reliably repeatable so that I can at least test the relative effectiveness of each LDC when compared to one another.
Here is how I setup a simple dB meter to compare a stock Benjamin Marauder .177 with my recently acquired Benjamin 397s. I think if you shoot a few few popular air rifles like the marauder and d34 in stock form you can get an idea how your other air rifle compare with or without LDC.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/11IEBaMyiJE (https://www.youtube.com/embed/11IEBaMyiJE)
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I also tried to figure out a way to test them for performance but still figuring it out. Don't care about the *Actual* db measurement, but just something reliably repeatable so that I can at least test the relative effectiveness of each LDC when compared to one another.
Here is how I setup a simple dB meter to compare a stock Benjamin Marauder .177 with my recently acquired Benjamin 397s. I think if you shoot a few few popular air rifles like the marauder and d34 in stock form you can get an idea how your other air rifle compare with or without LDC.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/11IEBaMyiJE (https://www.youtube.com/embed/11IEBaMyiJE)
Thanks Peter checking it out right now... 8)
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Peter, how far away from the meter was the target?
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And that passing motorcycle was even louder than anything else!
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And that passing motorcycle was even louder than anything else!
Yes, sometime I take advantage of the noisy car or motorcycle and shoot when they pass by my house. It works great in the morning hour or weekend when my backyard can be very quiet. The meter is about 25 feet from my back door.
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I had one of them "fuel filters" I think it must have weighed more than all of my 7 other airgun moderators combined! I still am shocked to see the absence of any huma moderators being used.
The 30mm ones are super light, and very effective. Length/effectiveness is adjustable. Price I suppose is substantial, but not more than a donny, and about 8x less than a firearm can
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I was waiting on someone to mention the Huma :D I didn't want to, because I'm usually the one to do it,lol. Huma doesn't get enough credit for their LDCs in my opinion. They are light, adjustable, and work pretty darn well. Better than some of the other popular ones for sure.
I use one on my high power .22, and it handles the job all the way up to 80 fpe easily. If I had a need for another, it would likely be a Huma. Of course, the NC is very hard to beat, and the Rocker1 LDCs can't be beat for the $$.
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Is there a place to acquire a Huma? I would look into doing it depending on co$t...
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Best place is direct from them. They do offer specials for certain configurations. Also, they have always had very fast shipping for being across the pond.
But what really impressed me is their customer service is first class!
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Best place is direct from them. They do offer specials for certain configurations. Also, they have always had very fast shipping for being across the pond.
But what really impressed me is their customer service is first class!
Thanks Dallas.
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Cheers!
I was waiting on someone to mention the Huma :D I didn't want to, because I'm usually the one to do it,lol. Huma doesn't get enough credit for their LDCs in my opinion. They are light, adjustable, and work pretty darn well. Better than some of the other popular ones for sure.
I use one on my high power .22, and it handles the job all the way up to 80 fpe easily. If I had a need for another, it would likely be a Huma. Of course, the NC is very hard to beat, and the Rocker1 LDCs can't be beat for the $$.
Yep, they're robust and well made. But best of all for me, the one I use on my hunting rig is about 4oz. The entire barrel on that gun is 8oz, so 12 combined. For a 9.5lb gun, it feels about like 5 or 6 lbs! I can reduce it to a single module (2.75"? Lenght) in my 24" barrel, and it is VERY quiet still, while adding absolute minimal length to a super long gun.
It was the 4th one I got after a tko, sto, and one of froggys units. I've got 4 more since 😬 I would for sure like to get a NC mod at some point
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Is there a place to acquire a Huma? I would look into doing it depending on co$t...
Yep, you can get them straight from the source. MOD 30 if you want smaller diameter, and MOD 40 if you want maximum noise reduction. The MOD 40 isn't super larger in diameter though.
https://www.huma-air.com/Modular-Airgun-Silencers-or-Moderators (https://www.huma-air.com/Modular-Airgun-Silencers-or-Moderators)
You can also source them from retailers in the states if you are in a bigger hurry to get one.
https://www.trenieroutdoors.com/gear/airgun-moderators/airgun-moderators-3/huma-air-airgun-moderators/ (https://www.trenieroutdoors.com/gear/airgun-moderators/airgun-moderators-3/huma-air-airgun-moderators/)
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Is there a place to acquire a Huma? I would look into doing it depending on co$t...
Yep, you can get them straight from the source. MOD 30 if you want smaller diameter, and MOD 40 if you want maximum noise reduction. The MOD 40 isn't super larger in diameter though.
https://www.huma-air.com/Modular-Airgun-Silencers-or-Moderators (https://www.huma-air.com/Modular-Airgun-Silencers-or-Moderators)
You can also source them from retailers in the states if you are in a bigger hurry to get one.
https://www.trenieroutdoors.com/gear/airgun-moderators/airgun-moderators-3/huma-air-airgun-moderators/ (https://www.trenieroutdoors.com/gear/airgun-moderators/airgun-moderators-3/huma-air-airgun-moderators/)
Thanks Donny, at first I couldn't find any links except for some kind of health care site or something... ::)
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This comparison review that includes the Huma seems fairly balanced, I like how he admits he was unaware he'd be doing a video when he came in to work. In fact the way he was dressed it kinda looked like he planned to spend the day out hunting or something.
So it made some of his offhand remarks seem more truthful and believable (like admitting the Huggett was not quite as quiet as another moderator or that their airgun shop did favor the Weirauch unit, etc.):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcuNHsZUsnw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcuNHsZUsnw)
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This comparison review that includes the Huma seems fairly balanced, I like how he admits he was unaware he'd be doing a video when he came in to work. In fact the way he was dressed it kinda looked like he planned to spend the day out hunting or something.
So it made some of his offhand remarks seem more truthful and believable (like admitting the Huggett was not quite as quiet as another moderator or that their airgun shop did favor the Weirauch unit, etc.):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcuNHsZUsnw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcuNHsZUsnw)
BAR gives rather honest reviews IMO and what they say in that video has been confirmed by independent sources. HW is a good unit and reasonably priced, less than 50 euros from Germany. My personal favorite and the quietest off the shelf unit I've measured is A&M Marksman or it's CF version Nelix. Having a CF silencer in a high power gun is IMO not a very good idea, they tend to come apart and in worst case you may have a carbon fiber schrapnel. It is also worth remembering that the video talks about 12 fpe guns, when you go up in power Huma with extension gets better due to increased volume. When it comes to silencers bigger is better 90% of the time.
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rkr, yes and after watching the video it convinced me to order a Huma standard 40mm. Looking forward to receiving it!
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rkr, yes and after watching the video it convinced me to order a Huma standard 40mm. Looking forward to receiving it!
Welcome to the club! You can also add another section to it later, if you need even more hush power ;)
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rkr, yes and after watching the video it convinced me to order a Huma standard 40mm. Looking forward to receiving it!
Welcome to the club! You can also add another section to it later, if you need even more hush power ;)
Yes I am now a new member of the CHC (Cool Huma Club). ;D
(and if I'm ever feeling inadequate, I'll just add some length, ha ha!)
Thanks for the link Donny!
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rkr, yes and after watching the video it convinced me to order a Huma standard 40mm. Looking forward to receiving it!
Welcome to the club! You can also add another section to it later, if you need even more hush power ;)
Yes I am now a new member of the CHC (Cool Huma Club). ;D
(and if I'm ever feeling inadequate, I'll just add some length, ha ha!)
Thanks for the link Donny!
Cool HUMA club, I have 3 regulators and a bullpup made by Huub - that should qualify.
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Ha, I'd think so!
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Watched that video about the huma moderator and I can't help but wonder: These items sell for like $40-$50 in Europe but close to $200 in the United States. You can get a metal cylinder with a threaded end cap and good dampening insert for $16 as a "fuel filter".
Why is the price so high in the United States for what is basically a metal can with a few baffles? Convenience and no international shipping? Are people here making these by hand, while they're being mass produced in Europe? Like a "bespoke" ldc? Is there a huge difference in sound dampening? is it an issue of style / finish / fit?
So what's the added $150 -160 in value here?
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They are priced according to what people will pay (like most consumer goods). Not according to production cost .
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It is easy to make a silencer that gives average performance. To make one that gives excellent performance requires quite a lot more. My opinion is that people are mostly paying for bling, not performance. That's because there are only few independent tests of different silencers with proper performance measurements.
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I have probes and data loggers to collect data on sound levels / audio spectrum. I have been testing various homemade designs which I know we don't discuss here but it is interesting relating what I think I hear to what is actually happening with air pressure and sound. I've been testing the effects of vent holes in the outer tube for example - number, position along tube and in relation to internal components/ sections, etc. again, I will not get into details - my point is i am curious and testing using some dedicated hardware. I have zero training specifically in sound sampling and analysis so this is strictly a simple backup and extension to my ears.
I've never tried a high end LDC but a friend has a DonnyFL model that I would like to test alongside cheap homemade options. I'm not really interested in debunking the whole "niche luxury product" aspect. High end air guns are clearly luxury items, like the Teslas (alternative and limited energy source, high price?) of the gun world, and so of course people buy luxury ldcs for them.
But back to what I have been doing, what I would like to understand is what the differences are, if any, so that I can make the best of my own investigations. If there are no differences that would also be nice to know so I don't waste my time pursuing something that's just nothing in the end.
3D printer on the way so I have a chance to really tinker.
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There's the well known basic design that most manufacturers use and it gives good results. In addition vent holes can reduce or increase the noise level and the dB peak frequency can be tuned to give different types of sound - high pitch often sounds like less dB even if it's more. Other than that it's all about volume - based on my testing.
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Thanks that makes sense. The idea of tuning the tone is an interesting one.
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Airgun Silencer Testing
This guy at Silent Thunder Ordnance gets pretty involved when he attempts to do anything. I'm very impressed.
He has a scientific test setup, and has examined over a dozen differnt silencers side by side.
I'll post the links to his articles so you won't have to do the searching as I had to.... :)
Part 1: https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/blog/2018/10/4/project-fx-crown-moderator (https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/blog/2018/10/4/project-fx-crown-moderator)
Part 2: https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/blog/2018/11/5/project-fx-crown-moderator-part-2 (https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/blog/2018/11/5/project-fx-crown-moderator-part-2)
Part 3: https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/blog/2019/1/16/project-fx-crown-moderator-part-3 (https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/blog/2019/1/16/project-fx-crown-moderator-part-3)
Part 4: https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/blog/2019/2/7/airgun-moderator-design-performance-and-development-part-4 (https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/blog/2019/2/7/airgun-moderator-design-performance-and-development-part-4)
Part 5: ▲ ▲ Here all the silencers are compared, even those tested at a later date than Part 5 ▲ ▲
https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/blog/2019/3/1/airgun-moderator-design-performance-and-development-the-big-test-part-5 (https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/blog/2019/3/1/airgun-moderator-design-performance-and-development-the-big-test-part-5)
Part 6: https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/blog/2019/4/1/airgun-moderator-design-performance-and-development-the-edgun-leshiy-part-6 (https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/blog/2019/4/1/airgun-moderator-design-performance-and-development-the-edgun-leshiy-part-6)
Part 7: https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/blog/2019/4/25/airgun-moderator-design-performance-and-development-shroud-dampers-part-7 (https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/blog/2019/4/25/airgun-moderator-design-performance-and-development-shroud-dampers-part-7)
Part 8: https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/blog/2019/4/26/airgun-moderator-design-performance-and-development-the-edgun-leshiy-part-8 (https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/blog/2019/4/26/airgun-moderator-design-performance-and-development-the-edgun-leshiy-part-8)
Part 9: https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/blog/2019/4/30/9y18x2ito7vnstlfb79dr6f7jryynj (https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/blog/2019/4/30/9y18x2ito7vnstlfb79dr6f7jryynj)
Part 10: Tiny change in the design, huge change in sound!
https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/blog/2019/5/16/airgun-moderator-design-performance-and-development-the-edgun-leshiy-part-10 (https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/blog/2019/5/16/airgun-moderator-design-performance-and-development-the-edgun-leshiy-part-10)
Part 11: https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/blog/2019/6/11/airgun-moderator-design-performance-and-development-the-semifinal-mus-test-part-11 (https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/blog/2019/6/11/airgun-moderator-design-performance-and-development-the-semifinal-mus-test-part-11)
Part 12: https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/blog/2019/6/13/ddfc402orcoh739wwchwtdcpa4alwy (https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/blog/2019/6/13/ddfc402orcoh739wwchwtdcpa4alwy)
Cheers,
Matthias
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Silencer Specs Table
Here is a Silencer Specs Table for my fellow shoppers.
Includes about 30 silencer models/ variations.
Sorted according to length.
Specs:
Connectors available for different gun brands
Calibers available
Weight
Thickness
Price
After making the table and comparing specs, I wrote to DonnyFL.
And the guy actually answered my email the next day.
Yes, he happened to have the same gun, a PP700.
And he had tried various of his models. And the best he found was a SUMO.
He recommended I get a .25 size for the .22 gun, to avoid clipping.
I'm a very happy customer.
My neighbors are very clueless people.
The pigeons are very dead pests birds wherever I go hunting.
Happy silencer shopping! :)
Matthias
✱✱Attachment: Silencer Specs Table✱✱
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Matthias, thank you for the in-depth analysis articles and tables. They will come in handy indeed!
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There's the well known basic design that most manufacturers use and it gives good results. In addition vent holes can reduce or increase the noise level and the dB peak frequency can be tuned to give different types of sound - high pitch often sounds like less dB even if it's more. Other than that it's all about volume - based on my testing.
That’s basically my findings as well although I have not tried vent holes, its always seemed counterproductive to me.
Volume is king and if it’s a baffle design use the smallest aperture holes you can get away with without affecting accuracy or creating too much back pressure.
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I did this a while back ....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKZBlmuFEC8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKZBlmuFEC8)
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After trying Neil's reflexed LDCs I will never again use any others.
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I did this a while back ....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKZBlmuFEC8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKZBlmuFEC8)
Thanks for the cool video, TJ!
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There's the well known basic design that most manufacturers use and it gives good results. In addition vent holes can reduce or increase the noise level and the dB peak frequency can be tuned to give different types of sound - high pitch often sounds like less dB even if it's more. Other than that it's all about volume - based on my testing.
That’s basically my findings as well although I have not tried vent holes, its always seemed counterproductive to me.
Volume is king and if it’s a baffle design use the smallest aperture holes you can get away with without affecting accuracy or creating too much back pressure.
There's two ways to make those vent holes to work, either you slow down the air coming out of them to prevent the "bang" or you change the tone to be over 20KHz so you can't hear it.
Years ago in the old BSAOG (which is now in the bit heaven) a very well executed comparison of 12 different silencers was made using 12 fpe guns. I managed to find the data from that test from my HD (graph attached). Unfortunately I have no description saved but the test was done using one weapon in a silent location outdoors, 24 bit soundcard, good mic + audacity to crunch data. What can be learned:
1. Monocore units made for rimfire use (SAK) do not work well for airguns
2. The performance of traditional 3 chamber units is close to each other while HW remains on top
3. A modified unit (RancidTom's Hogan) easily outperforms off the self silencers
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Some mysterious deliveries to the mrbulk household have grown the collection lately.
In order of length:
Huma 40 Std
valymurph ebay LDC
Rocker1
Sumo
Artemus CP2 factory unit
Geo ebay LDC
Tanto
MaxZ Bulk one-off custom miniature w/all aluminum monocore (no felt!)
ZeroDB
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Dang brother! Would you like the # for my new therapist? She specializes in AG addiction! 💩
I was trying my best to keep it to myself until I received it, but I’m like an excited kid haha... and on top of that I’ve had a couple beers tonight while I give my pellet-smoker a good workout, and it’s almost like a form of truth serum lol... so Imma‘ let the cat out of the bag... I have a Neil Clague currently being custom made for my Cayden! 🤩
I hold this thread to blame btw 🤣
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Some mysterious deliveries to the mrbulk household have grown the collection lately.
In order of length:
Huma 40 Std
valymurph ebay LDC
Rocker1
Sumo
Artemus CP2 factory unit
Geo ebay LDC
Tanto
MaxZ Bulk one-off custom miniature w/all aluminum monocore (no felt!)
ZeroDB
You got a collection going there! Let us know how the Huma works for you. I'm curious on your thoughts, since we don't get a lot of people using them on here. I'm also curious, because I haven't tried the shorter version you have. Well, shorter than the one I have at least. I've been using the "Standard+" MOD 40.
Dang brother! Would you like the # for my new therapist? She specializes in AG addiction!
I was trying my best to keep it to myself until I received it, but I’m like an excited kid haha... and on top of that I’ve had a couple beers tonight while I give my pellet-smoker a good workout, and it’s almost like a form of truth serum lol... so Imma‘ let the cat out of the bag... I have a Neil Clague currently being custom made for my Cayden!
I hold this thread to blame btw
I'm sure it will be sneaky quiet too! He makes some good ones for sure.
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Dang brother! Would you like the # for my new therapist? She specializes in AG addiction! 💩
;D ;D ;D GOOOD one, Dave!
I was trying my best to keep it to myself until I received it, but I’m like an excited kid haha... and on top of that I’ve had a couple beers tonight while I give my pellet-smoker a good workout, and it’s almost like a form of truth serum lol... so Imma‘ let the cat out of the bag... I have a Neil Clague currently being custom made for my Cayden! 🤩
I hold this thread to blame btw 🤣
Uh-oh you did it now, cat's outta the bag and we MUST see pictures when you get her!
...gosh I love this forum...
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Some mysterious deliveries to the mrbulk household have grown the collection lately.
In order of length:
Huma 40 Std
valymurph ebay LDC
Rocker1
Sumo
Artemus CP2 factory unit
Geo ebay LDC
Tanto
MaxZ Bulk one-off custom miniature w/all aluminum monocore (no felt!)
ZeroDB
You got a collection going there! Let us know how the Huma works for you. I'm curious on your thoughts, since we don't get a lot of people using them on here. I'm also curious, because I haven't tried the shorter version you have. Well, shorter than the one I have at least. I've been using the "Standard+" MOD 40.
Donny, so you "only" have the Standard+??? The Standard I received today is absolutely gargantuan compared to the (formerly) biggest one I have, the DonnyFL Sumo. So the Plus is what, a couple inches longer? That thing must be yuuuge! But man it must be silent. I tried to add one of those extensions to my order to make it five sections like your Plus, but they were sold out of the 40mm.
But it will be interesting to try it on the AR6K, the loudest gun I have at the time. The Sumo quieted it down somewhat, but it was still obviously a bit louder compared to the Akela and another PCP I have, with their factory spring loaded baffles already installed in the shrouds.
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Huma Long 5/0 has the same volume and basic construction that's used in A&M Marksman. That one is the quitest silencer I have so Huma should work really well up to 150 fpe level. At 165 eur it is too expensive for me though, otherwise I'd get one and would test it against A&M which is only 80 euros.
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Question:
I'd be interested in an airgun silencer with a 2" (5cm) diameter.
Is there anybody else besides DonnyFl that makes them?
Matthias
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Silent thunder ordnance makes some interesting designs. I'd love to see some Independant comparisons with others and some new STO designs.
The Huma has pretty tight baffle clearance (6.5mm on 5.5mm airgun) the ability to strip air does have a noticeable a effect on noise reduction. Most moderators leave more room for error, but the humas I've had were machined perfectly straight. So, as long as your gun/mount is the same it will never be an issue.
I do have a very compact integrated mod on a pistol that is 6.2mm clearance on 5.5mm bore, and it is extremely effective for being very small in size and volume. I'd does contain an air stripper and a tiny but functional shroud, so that helps too
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Question:
I'd be interested in an airgun silencer with a 2" (5cm) diameter.
Is there anybody else besides DonnyFl that makes them?
Matthias
I have one for bigbore use. The problem is they start to show on your scope view.
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I wonder when someone will make an offset unit, like the EdGun Leshiy.
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Donny, so you "only" have the Standard+??? The Standard I received today is absolutely gargantuan compared to the (formerly) biggest one I have, the DonnyFL Sumo. So the Plus is what, a couple inches longer? That thing must be yuuuge! But man it must be silent. I tried to add one of those extensions to my order to make it five sections like your Plus, but they were sold out of the 40mm.
But it will be interesting to try it on the AR6K, the loudest gun I have at the time. The Sumo quieted it down somewhat, but it was still obviously a bit louder compared to the Akela and another PCP I have, with their factory spring loaded baffles already installed in the shrouds.
Well, I originally got a Standard+, which is the same as yours, but with an extra 20mm section. At the time, I was fighting some accuracy issues with a gun, and I stupidly drilled it out :-[ Now it has the opening of about a .30 cal,lol. I later added a 40mm section for a .25 to it. In other words, a standard that isn't drilled out would probably work about as well as mine currently does. It works amazingly well, considering the size of the hole on it and I'm using it on a .22 tuned to around 57 fpe. It is actually still easily backyard friendly. The odds of clipping are extremely low though,haha. I'm just kicking myself for drilling it out... I sure wish I could buy the end cap for them by itself. I'll probably end up getting another Standard at some point.
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Donny, so you "only" have the Standard+??? The Standard I received today is absolutely gargantuan compared to the (formerly) biggest one I have, the DonnyFL Sumo. So the Plus is what, a couple inches longer? That thing must be yuuuge! But man it must be silent. I tried to add one of those extensions to my order to make it five sections like your Plus, but they were sold out of the 40mm.
But it will be interesting to try it on the AR6K, the loudest gun I have at the time. The Sumo quieted it down somewhat, but it was still obviously a bit louder compared to the Akela and another PCP I have, with their factory spring loaded baffles already installed in the shrouds.
Well, I originally got a Standard+, which is the same as yours, but with an extra 20mm section. At the time, I was fighting some accuracy issues with a gun, and I stupidly drilled it out :-[ Now it has the opening of about a .30 cal,lol. I later added a 40mm section for a .25 to it. In other words, a standard that isn't drilled out would probably work about as well as mine currently does. It works amazingly well, considering the size of the hole on it and I'm using it on a .22 tuned to around 57 fpe. It is actually still easily backyard friendly. The odds of clipping are extremely low though,haha. I'm just kicking myself for drilling it out... I sure wish I could buy the end cap for them by itself. I'll probably end up getting another Standard at some point.
Ahh, understood. I have heard it is wise anyway to have a slightly enlarged pathway through the LDC, apparently it does not detract significantly from the sound dampening ability. BUT - when I went to add a extension section, all they had were 30mm barrels, nothing in 40mm so I did not even get to explore the option of ordering something slightly larger, internal bore size anyway, dang it...
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I've always gone up one caliber on my LDCs, just to be safe. That is especially a good idea for me, since I know who the dummy is that machined my barrels(me),lol! I just went in and measured the Huma that I drilled out, and it is .386" or around 9.8mm. So yeah, a little large for a .22 :-[ Like I said though, it is still plenty quiet. I don't expect the difference in one that wasn't drilled out being that much, but it still annoys me that I did it. That's what happens when you work on guns when you're in a hurry or getting frustrated.... The problem never was the LDC, it was barrel movement.
Hurry up and test that thing Charlie!
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Just got a 3d printer up and running. Also a couple of 10" x 2" Chinese "fuel filter" tubes/caps/orings / filters sets, again only $16 a pop...
So I have been printing different baffles to try out in those tubes along with hair curlers and other home made stuff.
Getting some very good results but it's all just random messing around and having fun, not getting really systematic.
These would be great for anyone wanting a 2" can.
Am I crossing a line here? Is this general and vague enough?
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Hey Mister, we're just talking about fuel filters, aren't we? Hehe... :-X
Donny I just need to figure out The Way to test. Indoors everything overwhelms my sound meter, and outdoors I gotta time it between nosy neighbor head poke-outs...especially when doing the no-LDC comparo shots... ::) ::) ::)
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Hey Mister, we're just talking about fuel filters, aren't we? Hehe... :-X
Donny I just need to figure out The Way to test. Indoors everything overwhelms my sound meter, and outdoors I gotta time it between nosy neighbor head poke-outs...especially when doing the no-LDC comparo shots... ::) ::) ::)
I'm not looking for sound meter readings really. I'm just looking for your thoughts on how well it seems to work on your guns is all. Just your "seat of the pants" thoughts on it, if that makes sense. I'm really curious to see how it compares to the Sumo, because I had a Sumo once and sold it. It just didn't do what I hoped it would do, but the Huma blows it away from my memory. That's isn't necessarily a knock on the Sumo, but it just didn't work well for me.
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I've always gone up one caliber on my LDCs, just to be safe. That is especially a good idea for me, since I know who the dummy is that machined my barrels(me),lol! I just went in and measured the Huma that I drilled out, and it is .386" or around 9.8mm. So yeah, a little large for a .22 :-[ Like I said though, it is still plenty quiet. I don't expect the difference in one that wasn't drilled out being that much, but it still annoys me that I did it. That's what happens when you work on guns when you're in a hurry or getting frustrated.... The problem never was the LDC, it was barrel movement.
Hurry up and test that thing Charlie!
That should make some nice low thump when fired. I actually use 9mm exit hole in one of my HWs for that reason. I've never gone for 9+mm baffle holes for small bores but for internal baffles there's really no measurable difference whether you go 1mm or 2mm oversize of the bore.
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Hey Mister, we're just talking about fuel filters, aren't we? Hehe... :-X
Donny I just need to figure out The Way to test. Indoors everything overwhelms my sound meter, and outdoors I gotta time it between nosy neighbor head poke-outs...especially when doing the no-LDC comparo shots... ::) ::) ::)
I'm not looking for sound meter readings really. I'm just looking for your thoughts on how well it seems to work on your guns is all. Just your "seat of the pants" thoughts on it, if that makes sense. I'm really curious to see how it compares to the Sumo, because I had a Sumo once and sold it. It just didn't do what I hoped it would do, but the Huma blows it away from my memory. That's isn't necessarily a knock on the Sumo, but it just didn't work well for me.
Yeah Donny, the ear test oughta be easy enough to do. Will LYK my "official aural findings" (*ahem*) in a day or two...
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Just got a 3d printer up and running. Also a couple of 10" x 2" Chinese "fuel filter" tubes/caps/orings / filters sets, again only $16 a pop...
So I have been printing different baffles to try out in those tubes along with hair curlers and other home made stuff.
Getting some very good results but it's all just random messing around and having fun, not getting really systematic.
These would be great for anyone wanting a 2" can.
Am I crossing a line here? Is this general and vague enough?
Thanks, I didn't know they make those filters in such big size. Not much point in doing one myself when you can get them ready made for that price. As for internals, a copy of HW setup will work perfectly for 2" tube - makes 160 fpe almost whisper quiet. Worth noting that plastic parts may start to disintegrate when you go past 45 fpe (been there done that). Even 2mm soft aluminium plate starts changing shape at 200+ fpe - funnel shaped baffles anyone?
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Well, I originally got a Standard+, which is the same as yours, but with an extra 20mm section. At the time, I was fighting some accuracy issues with a gun, and I stupidly drilled it out :-[ Now it has the opening of about a .30 cal,lol. I later added a 40mm section for a .25 to it. In other words, a standard that isn't drilled out would probably work about as well as mine currently does. It works amazingly well, considering the size of the hole on it and I'm using it on a .22 tuned to around 57 fpe. It is actually still easily backyard friendly. The odds of clipping are extremely low though,haha. I'm just kicking myself for drilling it out... I sure wish I could buy the end cap for them by itself. I'll probably end up getting another Standard at some point.
If you ask them, they will just sell you an end cap. They will at minimum try their very hardest to. I got one myself, it was from old stock, or had a mismatched (ever so slightly) anodized coat. But they told me that before selling it to me. I'm telling yall, their customer service has been above top notch. In more than a few instances.
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I've got two of these and they both work fantastic, one is on my Prod and the other is on my Benjamin Cayden. It's always a treat to have a nice quiet gun when hunting so you don't give the critters as much of an idea as to where the sound is coming from especially for a miss, it's the difference between being able to make a second shot if need be.
(https://i.imgur.com/5yXrxs8.jpg)
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I've got two of these and they both work fantastic, one is on my Prod and the other is on my Benjamin Cayden. It's always a treat to have a nice quiet gun when hunting so you don't give the critters as much of an idea as to where the sound is coming from especially for a miss, it's the difference between being able to make a second shot if need be.
(https://i.imgur.com/5yXrxs8.jpg)
Rocker1 ... jumbo?
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David made one of these for me when I exploded a TKO LDC after installing an SS valve in it, he did a high FPE test with it before sending it to me, that carbon fiber is some tough stuff.
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Has anyone else read through the LDC reviews done by Silent Thunder Ordinance? I feel like his analysis was really helpful in comparing similar products out there, but since he sells his own LDCs it does make me wonder if someone else would be a better candidate for comparing these products. I think it would be awesome if someone out there had the knowledge to operate an unbiased website performing the same sorts of analysis for any products users sent them to test. I think our community would find value in that.
I'd consider doing it myself, but I admit that I have already been designing and creating my own LDCs for my personal airguns for a while since I want them ultra backyard friendly. I've thought about selling them as well at some point in the future, so I don't think I'd be the best candidate for this since I'd likely have some level of bias.
Does anyone know of someone else who has this kind of research out there? Or is anyone up for testing and compiling information like this?
https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/blog/2019/3/1/airgun-moderator-design-performance-and-development-the-big-test-part-5 (https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/blog/2019/3/1/airgun-moderator-design-performance-and-development-the-big-test-part-5)
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Has anyone else read through the LDC reviews done by Silent Thunder Ordinance? I feel like his analysis was really helpful in comparing similar products out there, but since he sells his own LDCs it does make me wonder if someone else would be a better candidate for comparing these products. I think it would be awesome if someone out there had the knowledge to operate an unbiased website performing the same sorts of analysis for any products users sent them to test. I think our community would find value in that.
I'd consider doing it myself, but I admit that I have already been designing and creating my own LDCs for my personal airguns for a while since I want them ultra backyard friendly. I've thought about selling them as well at some point in the future, so I don't think I'd be the best candidate for this since I'd likely have some level of bias.
Does anyone know of someone else who has this kind of research out there? Or is anyone up for testing and compiling information like this?
https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/blog/2019/3/1/airgun-moderator-design-performance-and-development-the-big-test-part-5 (https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/blog/2019/3/1/airgun-moderator-design-performance-and-development-the-big-test-part-5)
They could certainly do better job in analyzing those results. A simple graph with dB level and frequency and line for every silencer they tested, like the one I posted. The biggest problem is getting all the needed silencers to someone who could then test them properly at one go to keep environmental variables out. To circumvent that I use a standard silencer (HW) and test other silencers and modifications against that.
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Look what I just found out on my porch... this thing must be so dang quiet I didn’t even realize it got delivered ;D
Thanks Neil! She’s a beauty 8)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Njhcn7XG/00-F50760-FDAD-43-CE-BDFE-EA7-F23-C3-AAE7.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Look what I just found out on my porch... this thing must be so dang quiet I didn’t even realize it got delivered ;D
Thanks Neil! She’s a beauty 8)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Njhcn7XG/00-F50760-FDAD-43-CE-BDFE-EA7-F23-C3-AAE7.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
WHOA, she’s a stealth beaut. Hey how quick was the shipping? From order to today?
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Ordered Friday afternoon, received the following Wednesday... custom made by hand one at a time per each order... pretty dang fast! :o
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... this thing must be so dang quiet I didn’t even realize it got delivered ;D
That is funny, Thanks.
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Real world test - I know there are numerous scientific measurements and criteria regarding sound output, as well as various scholarly interpretations of those same measurements, etc. but I also realized my neighbors were not huddled around their decibel meters nor consulting their scientific sound decibel journals trying to see if my guns were too loud or not.
In fact they likely didn't even know I was shooting unless they heard it loud enough. And that's usually when they start poking their heads out their windows or doors.
So I figured I would just do a simple real world test, where I place the sound meter 10 feet in front and slightly to the side of the muzzle of my test gun today, which in this case was a Kral NP-03 that just came in. It has a power adjustment dial like on my Akela, and I had it set at 3/4 of the way up toward full power.
The shooting lane I set up is flanked on one side by a long brick wall and the other, the house itself with cement stucco finish which hopefully provided for similar sound reflection patterns from either side. All shots made from same benched position shown in photos, at a target 75 feet away (barely visible at top left of long photo shot). Target was rubber mulch filled and made no detectable noise from back where I was.
I used JSB 18.13gr pellets for each shot traveling at an average of 750 fps.
My left side neighbor's A/C unit behind that wall was running the whole time (it was 104 degrees out) so no other ambient noises (if any) were obvious nor picked up by the sound meter, which also meant there were no other variations in detectable ambient sound levels due to the A/C's continual background noise. All in all the testing conditions for each LDC were as equivalent as I could make them.
I did not test for POI shift or accuracy or fps, just what decibel level of sound a neighbor might hear if they were just standing around outside.
Several of the LDCs were not testable (they either had proprietary threads or I had no proper adapter for the Kral, etc.) so here are the six that I Could test, in order of loudness, average db of three shots each:
Bare barrel 107.0 db (one shot only, too LOUD!)
ZeroDB 97.7 db
Geo ebay 97.6 db
Rocker1 93.2 db
Sumo 85.8 db
Tanto 85.5 db
HUMA 80.5 db
To be honest most of the LDCs sounded about the same to my ear (of course I was sitting right next to the gun as it was fired) and yet - the Huma was OBVIOUSLY quieter. Even from where I was sitting (yes Donny, you may have been right about the Huma all along)...and funny how the Tanto was actually quieter than its Sumo big brother.
So that's that. And that's all I have, interpret this as you will!
I will do more of this whenever I can afford to acquire more LDCs, since I purchase mine with personal funds to quell any perceptions of, or allusions to any favoritism towards donated products.
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Very interesting! I've seen the same result echoed with the Tanto and Sumo on other tests too. I would have expected the 0db to do better. Which version was it, the shorter one? You should have pulled one of the sections off the Huma to see how it faired being a more similar length to the others, heck take two sections off, you know for science :D I suspect the results might move around, if you turn that gun up to full power? Thanks for posting!
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Donny it was the shorter 110 Model. They did not offer the 160 when I was buying.
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Donny it was the shorter 110 Model. They did not offer the 160 when I was buying.
I figured it was the 110. Not that I'm saying the 160 would win, but I think it would do better. That 160 is $$$ though. I still think the Huma will do very well with one of the sections removed still. I'm just glad it did well in your testing, or I would have felt bad after urging you to get one,lol.
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Naw, I'm glad I got it Donny. I really like the "adjustability" and will try that tomorrow.
And I would sure like to get a Neil C.
and Huggett
and Weihrauch (the Euro "standard" as they say)
to check them out side by side.
When I win the lottery ;D
(I wonder who we know in Europe could send us a Weihrauch? I heard they were like "fifty quid" whatever that comes to which we could send to them, sounds cheap enough)...
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Naw, I'm glad I got it Donny. I really like the "adjustability" and will try that tomorrow.
And I would sure like to get a Neil C.
and Huggett
and Weihrauch (the Euro "standard" as they say)
to check them out side by side.
When I win the lottery ;D
(I wonder who we know in Europe could send us a Weihrauch? I heard they were like "fifty quid" whatever that comes to which we could send to them, sounds cheap enough)...
Add Hogan and A&M Marksman to the list and you are well covered :)
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I will be in Germany next Summer.
If you can wait till then, I can put a shipment together. 👍🏼
Matthias
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Naw, I'm glad I got it Donny. I really like the "adjustability" and will try that tomorrow.
And I would sure like to get a Neil C.
and Huggett
and Weihrauch (the Euro "standard" as they say)
to check them out side by side.
When I win the lottery ;D
(I wonder who we know in Europe could send us a Weihrauch? I heard they were like "fifty quid" whatever that comes to which we could send to them, sounds cheap enough)...
Add Hogan and A&M Marksman to the list and you are well covered :)
Can you send them to me for test? ;D
But seriously, what about sourcing a Weirauch for me, or just the e-mail/phone of a willing shop?
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I will be in Germany next Summer.
If you can wait till then, I can put a shipment together. 👍🏼
Matthias
*Whoa!* Thanks for the kind offer Matthias, will touch base with you just before then, if we don't find a way sooner. :D :D
thanks again
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Very well. ✔️
Sent you a PM.
Matthias
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Very well. ✔️
Sent you a PM.
Matthias
Received, and your ctc info noted. Thanks again Matthias.
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Hey, I just searched online for an HW unit and found Wolf Airguns in Poland(?) and they ship to the U.S.
Seemingly cheap prices as well... and only $9 shipping (per unit).
So I ordered TWO (2) Weihrauchs - a standard model (210mm x 30mm) and their "High Efficiency" version which is just a bit thicker (210mm x 35mm)
The total came to $126 ... for BOTH Weihrauchs including shipping.
Will let y'all know how it goes when they arrive...(they say shipped in 5-10 days)...
Links if anyone wants to check them out, they have all KINDS of LDCs, not just Weihrauchs:
https://www.wolfairguns.com/product_info.php?cPath=32&products_id=66&osCsid=eg830cbqg305ls5c1a1gvrsdb7 (https://www.wolfairguns.com/product_info.php?cPath=32&products_id=66&osCsid=eg830cbqg305ls5c1a1gvrsdb7)
https://www.wolfairguns.com/product_info.php?cPath=32&products_id=65&osCsid=eg830cbqg305ls5c1a1gvrsdb7 (https://www.wolfairguns.com/product_info.php?cPath=32&products_id=65&osCsid=eg830cbqg305ls5c1a1gvrsdb7)
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Thanks for the links!
It's great to have more options! 👍🏼
Matthias
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Dang, those suckers are 8" long! I bet they work though.
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Dang, those suckers are 8" long! I bet they work though.
Yeah Donny that's so's if ya miss you can still beat'em to death! ;D
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Dang, those suckers are 8" long! I bet they work though.
That's the norm in Europe, most units are 30mm diameter and 200mm long. Marksman is 38mm x 225mm and that one is really quiet.
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Dang, those suckers are 8" long! I bet they work though.
That's the norm in Europe, most units are 30mm diameter and 200mm long. Marksman is 38mm x 225mm and that one is really quiet.
I can imagine how much More quiet they must be on 12 FPE guns. You guys are lucky to be so spoilt for choice... ;)
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There was a question about what the different LDCs weigh since that may become a factor in POI shift if heavier, so I thought I'd better go weigh mine.
In order of lightest to heaviest weight:
GEO (ebay) = 1.7oz
Diana (factory) = 2.8oz
Rocker1 = 3.3oz
ZERO db = 3.5oz
Tanto = 3.8oz
Sumo = 5.7oz
Huma 40mm = 7.6oz
It should be noted that:
the 40mm Huma comes in a 30mm diameter as well, plus its several sections can be screwed on and off to suit the airgun application at hand.
the Rocker1 is available in different custom made sizes and formats
the ZERO db I have is their shorter length model (110) while a longer (160) version is available.
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Dang, those suckers are 8" long! I bet they work though.
Donny that's what She said last night (and then I woke up, dang it) ;D
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Dang, those suckers are 8" long! I bet they work though.
Donny that's what She said last night (and then I woke up, dang it) ;D
Hahahaha!
There was a question about what the different LDCs weigh since that may become a factor in POI shift if heavier, so I thought I'd better go weigh mine.
In order of lightest to heaviest weight:
GEO (ebay) = 1.7oz
Diana (factory) = 2.8oz
Rocker1 = 3.3oz
ZERO db = 3.5oz
Tanto = 3.8oz
Sumo = 5.7oz
Huma 40mm = 7.6oz
It should be noted that:
the 40mm Huma comes in a 30mm diameter as well, plus its several sections can be screwed on and off to suit the airgun application at hand.
the Rocker1 is available in different custom made sizes and formats
the ZERO db I have is their shorter length model (110) while a longer (160) version is available.
It may be a good idea to include the length and diameter of the LDCs along with the weight for better context. The Huma is a bit of an odd ball in those respects too, because you remove sections and even remove the damping material from sections too. I currently have the damping material removed from the first section of mine to allow for a bit more air expansion. I really couldn't tell much difference between the sound with the material removed on the first section, but I've been too lazy to put it back in there to retest,lol.
I will say I experimented with the materials on the Sumo when I had it. I had some foam I used to tame it a little bit, but I never could get it to be as good as the NC or Huma. I would love to try out one of the STO LDCs, but I wouldn't even know how to get one. I sent them a message about a week ago, but have gotten no response...
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Wow, some of those are pretty light. For comparison, the total weight of the "fuel filter" type I happen to have hanging around is 16.4 oz! But that thing is huge too: 2" diameter and 10" long. The weight the breakdown is as follows:
- 5.9 oz total for the end caps and spring. These are heavy chunkers.
- 7.6 oz for the cylinder (no end caps or filter)
- 2.9 oz for the filter alone. It really is a paper filter cartridge, so that will have to go sometime in favor of something more appropriate.
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Wow, some of those are pretty light. For comparison, the total weight of the "fuel filter" type I happen to have hanging around is 16.4 oz! But that thing is huge too: 2" diameter and 10" long. The weight the breakdown is as follows:
- 5.9 oz total for the end caps and spring. These are heavy chunkers.
- 7.6 oz for the cylinder (no end caps or filter)
- 2.9 oz for the filter alone. It really is a paper filter cartridge, so that will have to go sometime in favor of something more appropriate.
;D would you bet that the mass helps absorb sound, though?
and Donny, what is STO? ???
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STO = Silent Thunder Ordinance.
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A good filler material that I found was weather stripping felt for doors and windows.
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I have both 30 and 40 mm humas. The 40 is substantially heavier. While the 30 is still extremely effective.
The most balanced config for effectiveness/length/weight on the 30mm moderator is 3 40mm long modules and 1 20mm. 6.4" and 4 oz on the dot. When hunting I only use 2 modules for 2.8oz, and 3.9" length.
For those looking for STO mods... https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/secret-menu (https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/secret-menu)
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Thanks for the STO info Dallas and Donny.
Dan, is that insulation like a dense foam rubber, and some come with a peel-and-stick side?
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No adhesive at all I guess it's more for doors than windows. But looks like this. Comes in different width I believe. I also used stainless steel screen with small gap pattern to keep it held to inside of can and to help it from being blown out the end.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/M-D-Building-Products-3-16-in-x-5-8-in-x-17-ft-Gray-Felt-Weatherstrip-03335/202630702?source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&mtc=Shopping-B-F_Brand-G-Multi-NA-Multi-NA-Feed-PLA-NA-NA-Catchall_PLA-HUT&cm_mmc=Shopping-B-F_Brand-G-Multi-NA-Multi-NA-Feed-PLA-NA-NA-Catchall_PLA-HUT-71700000071566419-58700006272212013-92700056797645503&gclsrc=aw.ds&&gclid=EAIaIQobChMInOm3hoL36wIVbRitBh24ZQg4EAQYHiABEgIAMPD_BwE (https://www.homedepot.com/p/M-D-Building-Products-3-16-in-x-5-8-in-x-17-ft-Gray-Felt-Weatherstrip-03335/202630702?source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&mtc=Shopping-B-F_Brand-G-Multi-NA-Multi-NA-Feed-PLA-NA-NA-Catchall_PLA-HUT&cm_mmc=Shopping-B-F_Brand-G-Multi-NA-Multi-NA-Feed-PLA-NA-NA-Catchall_PLA-HUT-71700000071566419-58700006272212013-92700056797645503&gclsrc=aw.ds&&gclid=EAIaIQobChMInOm3hoL36wIVbRitBh24ZQg4EAQYHiABEgIAMPD_BwE)
Sorry for long link.
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No adhesive at all I guess it's more for doors than windows. But looks like this. Comes in different width I believe. I also used stainless steel screen with small gap pattern to keep it held to inside of can and to help it from being blown out the end.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/M-D-Building-Products-3-16-in-x-5-8-in-x-17-ft-Gray-Felt-Weatherstrip-03335/202630702?source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&mtc=Shopping-B-F_Brand-G-Multi-NA-Multi-NA-Feed-PLA-NA-NA-Catchall_PLA-HUT&cm_mmc=Shopping-B-F_Brand-G-Multi-NA-Multi-NA-Feed-PLA-NA-NA-Catchall_PLA-HUT-71700000071566419-58700006272212013-92700056797645503&gclsrc=aw.ds&&gclid=EAIaIQobChMInOm3hoL36wIVbRitBh24ZQg4EAQYHiABEgIAMPD_BwE (https://www.homedepot.com/p/M-D-Building-Products-3-16-in-x-5-8-in-x-17-ft-Gray-Felt-Weatherstrip-03335/202630702?source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&mtc=Shopping-B-F_Brand-G-Multi-NA-Multi-NA-Feed-PLA-NA-NA-Catchall_PLA-HUT&cm_mmc=Shopping-B-F_Brand-G-Multi-NA-Multi-NA-Feed-PLA-NA-NA-Catchall_PLA-HUT-71700000071566419-58700006272212013-92700056797645503&gclsrc=aw.ds&&gclid=EAIaIQobChMInOm3hoL36wIVbRitBh24ZQg4EAQYHiABEgIAMPD_BwE)
Sorry for long link.
Cool, thanks Dan. Might be something to consider once I start blowing out all the stuffing in mine... :D
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Another material worth checking out is Melamine. Its the foam like material used in magic erasers. That's what I line the moderators I've made in and it seems to work great. Once my PP750 arrives I plan on using some in the shroud as well, maybe in between some 3D printed baffles.
If you're shopping for regular foam be sure to purchase open cell foam. Closed cell foam has a lot of good uses in home and automotive applications, but won't allow air and sound to get absorbed properly in an airgun. You want it to be able to travel inside the foam to get the best effect. Closed cell foam is better for sealing and completely blocking out airflow, not absorbing it.
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Thanks for the tip on foam type Dave.
Meanwhile, you can now buy LDCs for around ~$25 using their discount code provided here:
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=178228.msg156020510#msg156020510 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=178228.msg156020510#msg156020510)
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Foam is not good material for silencers as air can not penetrate it. In practice foam just compresses a bit and you loose volume inside, this can be verified by measurements. Dense felt has worked well for me as dampening material.
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Another material worth checking out is Melamine. Its the foam like material used in magic erasers. ...
Magic erasers are cheap--don't use up your wife's supply! Personally, for cleaning I like the heavy duty version, which is somewhat denser than the regular ones my wife buys anyway. (I'll have to try this idea on that fuel filter, but that might take a whole box of them!)
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I have both 30 and 40 mm humas. The 40 is substantially heavier. While the 30 is still extremely effective.
The most balanced config for effectiveness/length/weight on the 30mm moderator is 3 40mm long modules and 1 20mm. 6.4" and 4 oz on the dot. When hunting I only use 2 modules for 2.8oz, and 3.9" length.
For those looking for STO mods... https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/secret-menu (https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/secret-menu)
I couldn't find anywhere on that site to actually purchase the STO though. All I could find was the blog about them. Maybe I missed something?
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I have both 30 and 40 mm humas. The 40 is substantially heavier. While the 30 is still extremely effective.
The most balanced config for effectiveness/length/weight on the 30mm moderator is 3 40mm long modules and 1 20mm. 6.4" and 4 oz on the dot. When hunting I only use 2 modules for 2.8oz, and 3.9" length.
For those looking for STO mods... https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/secret-menu (https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/secret-menu)
I couldn't find anywhere on that site to actually purchase the STO though. All I could find was the blog about them. Maybe I missed something?
Did you follow the link?
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I'm a dummy,lol! I was thinking those were just pictures from his blog post that I had looked at earlier :-[ :-[ :-[ I'm going to go hide by myself now ::)
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I sent them a message via the site to inquire about which version they would recommend on my guns. They have a "flow factor" calculator on their page to determine which versions of their LDCs to use. By their calculator, my guns fall between moderate and high flow factors... The pricing doesn't seem that bad, I may get one to try out, depending on the response.
Oh and another LDC related thing... I got the chance to hear a Ramus Technologies Trident today on a 60 fpe Daystate Renegade in .25. It seemed to work quite well for the size, fyi. I can't be completely sure how well though, since I don't have much experience with what that gun sounds like with a different LDC, so take that with a grain of salt.
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I sent them a message via the site to inquire about which version they would recommend on my guns. They have a "flow factor" calculator on their page to determine which versions of their LDCs to use. By their calculator, my guns fall between moderate and high flow factors... The pricing doesn't seem that bad, I may get one to try out, depending on the response.
Oh and another LDC related thing... I got the chance to hear a Ramus Technologies Trident today on a 60 fpe Daystate Renegade in .25. It seemed to work quite well for the size, fyi. I can't be completely sure how well though, since I don't have much experience with what that gun sounds like with a different LDC, so take that with a grain of salt.
Donny I would have liked to hear that Daystate bare barreled first, so I that could experience just how much quieter the LDC made it afterwards. Did you get a chance?
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I'm a dummy,lol! I was thinking those were just pictures from his blog post that I had looked at earlier :-[ :-[ :-[ I'm going to go hide by myself now ::)
Haha, no worries. Everyone has their hiccups
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I sent them a message via the site to inquire about which version they would recommend on my guns. They have a "flow factor" calculator on their page to determine which versions of their LDCs to use. By their calculator, my guns fall between moderate and high flow factors... The pricing doesn't seem that bad, I may get one to try out, depending on the response.
Oh and another LDC related thing... I got the chance to hear a Ramus Technologies Trident today on a 60 fpe Daystate Renegade in .25. It seemed to work quite well for the size, fyi. I can't be completely sure how well though, since I don't have much experience with what that gun sounds like with a different LDC, so take that with a grain of salt.
Donny I would have liked to hear that Daystate bare barreled first, so I that could experience just how much quieter the LDC made it afterwards. Did you get a chance?
I did hear it without the Trident, and it was noticeably louder for sure. However, we were shooting in open space with a bit of wind as well. If I get the chance next time, I will see if I can get the owner to let my stick that trident on my gun and compare it to the long Huma I have. I think that will give me a definitive answer on how well it performs, since I know my gun very well, and it is making about the same power with a shroud that serves no function in other than stiffness.
I'm a dummy,lol! I was thinking those were just pictures from his blog post that I had looked at earlier :-[ :-[ :-[ I'm going to go hide by myself now ::)
Haha, no worries. Everyone has their hiccups
What happened was...:D I had looked at their site before, but not the "secret menu" part, and assumed those pictures were nothing more than pictures, rather than actually paying attention. My bad there for sure.
Speaking of shrouds and LDCs, I've read a lot more of STO's info and testing on their LDCs. At first reading the blog, they kept stating that the large volume LDC was a waste of space. Upon further reading(regarding their "flow factor"), it would seem that isn't entirely true. The best I can determine, that was only true with guns using a functional shroud that air was venting to. That shroud was taking up a lot of air volume during the shot cycle. When you go further down the rabbit hole of their very extensive explanations, that large volume LDC rule seems to have gone out the window. When designing an LDC for the high flow factor guns(guns without a shroud), everything changed. What did they end up with for an unshrouded gun making decent power? A 10" by 1.6" LDC!
I'm not trying to dump on STO, but there sure was a lot of talk about the uselessness of large volume LDCs. Boy, that all changed when they started playing with unshrouded guns. I still think there is some serious coolness to their LDC design though, and I'm certainly not saying they don't work. I'm just pointing out a minor gripe, about how conventional wisdom of LDC volume was seemingly made fun of, prior to the shroudless airgun testing ;). I'd still be very willing to give one their LDCs a try, and still may. You guys should really dig into all the info on their site about them. It is all very interesting to say the least. I think there is a lot of merit to the whole gas diode design he has been working with. I still come away with the idea of you can't tame the bark of a powerful gun without some volume to handle all that air though.
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I sent them a message via the site to inquire about which version they would recommend on my guns. They have a "flow factor" calculator on their page to determine which versions of their LDCs to use. By their calculator, my guns fall between moderate and high flow factors... The pricing doesn't seem that bad, I may get one to try out, depending on the response.
Oh and another LDC related thing... I got the chance to hear a Ramus Technologies Trident today on a 60 fpe Daystate Renegade in .25. It seemed to work quite well for the size, fyi. I can't be completely sure how well though, since I don't have much experience with what that gun sounds like with a different LDC, so take that with a grain of salt.
Donny I would have liked to hear that Daystate bare barreled first, so I that could experience just how much quieter the LDC made it afterwards. Did you get a chance?
I did hear it without the Trident, and it was noticeably louder for sure. However, we were shooting in open space with a bit of wind as well. If I get the chance next time, I will see if I can get the owner to let my stick that trident on my gun and compare it to the long Huma I have. I think that will give me a definitive answer on how well it performs, since I know my gun very well, and it is making about the same power with a shroud that serves no function in other than stiffness.
I'm a dummy,lol! I was thinking those were just pictures from his blog post that I had looked at earlier :-[ :-[ :-[ I'm going to go hide by myself now ::)
Haha, no worries. Everyone has their hiccups
What happened was...:D I had looked at their site before, but not the "secret menu" part, and assumed those pictures were nothing more than pictures, rather than actually paying attention. My bad there for sure.
Speaking of shrouds and LDCs, I've read a lot more of STO's info and testing on their LDCs. At first reading the blog, they kept stating that the large volume LDC was a waste of space. Upon further reading(regarding their "flow factor"), it would seem that isn't entirely true. The best I can determine, that was only true with guns using a functional shroud that air was venting to. That shroud was taking up a lot of air volume during the shot cycle. When you go further down the rabbit hole of their very extensive explanations, that large volume LDC rule seems to have gone out the window. When designing an LDC for the high flow factor guns(guns without a shroud), everything changed. What did they end up with for an unshrouded gun making decent power? A 10" by 1.6" LDC!
I'm not trying to dump on STO, but there sure was a lot of talk about the uselessness of large volume LDCs. Boy, that all changed when they started playing with unshrouded guns. I still think there is some serious coolness to their LDC design though, and I'm certainly not saying they don't work. I'm just pointing out a minor gripe, about how conventional wisdom of LDC volume was seemingly made fun of, prior to the shroudless airgun testing ;). I'd still be very willing to give one their LDCs a try, and still may. You guys should really dig into all the info on their site about them. It is all very interesting to say the least. I think there is a lot of merit to the whole gas diode design he has been working with. I still come away with the idea of you can't tame the bark of a powerful gun without some volume to handle all that air though.
Hey man, what a highly astute and well thought out overview of it all. It hit the nail on the head because actually my own Akela is easy to quiet down with just a small LDC because it's already shrouded. And not only that, the shroud itself also holds a short series of conical spring loaded baffles. No wonder it was so quiet at medium and even 3/4 power, I thought at first. You would just require a middling good moderator if shot at full power in the backyard.
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If you don't have a reflexed Neil Clague yet you're doing a huge disservice to yourself.
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If you don't have a reflexed Neil Clague yet you're doing a huge disservice to yourself.
I agree. I just need to manage some funding on my end first.
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If you don't have a reflexed Neil Clague yet you're doing a huge disservice to yourself.
Yep, I dont have a suitable setup on any gun to run one. Absolutely the most effective design, though. I'm doing something similar with my FX Crown this week. Going to place a very tight (6.2mm) baffle inside the shroud. Rather than the gaping (9.5mm) outlet endcap on superlight barrels, I should be able to contain a huge amount of pressure in the shroud, versus how it is now.
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I just ordered a high flow version of the STO Falx LDC to test out on my guns. I should be able to report back on the effectiveness of this very unique design soon. I'm hoping it works well. I have two different NC LDCs, and a large Huma to compare it with. I think the .22 slug gun will give it the biggest challenge, followed by the .177 slug gun, and a lower powered .177 pellet shooter. The latter is back yard friendly with a Huggett Belita, so I don't really see much need of testing it on that gun...
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8)
Looking forward to results. I've been eying the same model as well.
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Although I don't have any fancy LDCs to compare for you folks. I was inspired enough to do some noise recording of some popular airgun that I own. I know I know...it is impossible to measure dB accurately with a cheap sound meter. Just think of this as cheap entertaining OK?
Thing around the house.
https://youtu.be/im46WbXl__o
Some popular airguns.
https://youtu.be/wXcZYZBYCps
Some good dB info https://pulsarinstruments.com/en/post/understanding-decibels-decibel-scale-and-noise-measurement-units
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If you don't have a reflexed Neil Clague yet you're doing a huge disservice to yourself.
Yep, I dont have a suitable setup on any gun to run one. Absolutely the most effective design, though. I'm doing something similar with my FX Crown this week. Going to place a very tight (6.2mm) baffle inside the shroud. Rather than the gaping (9.5mm) outlet endcap on superlight barrels, I should be able to contain a huge amount of pressure in the shroud, versus how it is now.
Let us know how this turns out Dallas, I am curious about the super tight 6.2mm baffle - so is this the thickness of the baffle as measured from barrel's outer wall to shroud's inner wall?
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I just ordered a high flow version of the STO Falx LDC to test out on my guns. I should be able to report back on the effectiveness of this very unique design soon. I'm hoping it works well. I have two different NC LDCs, and a large Huma to compare it with. I think the .22 slug gun will give it the biggest challenge, followed by the .177 slug gun, and a lower powered .177 pellet shooter. The latter is back yard friendly with a Huggett Belita, so I don't really see much need of testing it on that gun...
Donny so you did order the STO? Cool, I am super interested in how that works for you. With everybody buying stuff we should have a meetup and test these things out live!
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Although I don't have any fancy LDCs to compare for you folks. I was inspired enough to do some noise recording of some popular airgun that I own. I know I know...it is impossible to measure dB accurately with a cheap sound meter. Just think of this as cheap entertaining OK?
Thing around the house.
https://youtu.be/im46WbXl__o
Some popular airguns.
https://youtu.be/wXcZYZBYCps
Some good dB info https://pulsarinstruments.com/en/post/understanding-decibels-decibel-scale-and-noise-measurement-units
Hey Peter thanks for the cool vids, the first one cracked me up ;D
I can see the quandary we all face trying to compare db readings amongst each other (since there's all these variables involved) but when done in one sitting with one sound meter and the same distances and same average ambient noises, especially through the Same gun, then some valuable comparisons can be drawn. Especially if it is backed up by one's pair of ears also listening along.
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Donny so you did order the STO? Cool, I am super interested in how that works for you. With everybody buying stuff we should have a meetup and test these things out live!
That would be really cool. If only the US were a little bit smaller 😂 I really do wish I was a lot closer to a good number of forum members. I'm in Central NC. Seems a lot are out in the Midwest or west coast entirely
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Real world test - I know there are numerous scientific measurements and criteria regarding sound output, as well as various scholarly interpretations of those same measurements, etc. but I also realized my neighbors were not huddled around their decibel meters nor consulting their scientific sound decibel journals trying to see if my guns were too loud or not.
In fact they likely didn't even know I was shooting unless they heard it loud enough. And that's usually when they start poking their heads out their windows or doors.
So I figured I would just do a simple real world test, where I place the sound meter 10 feet in front and slightly to the side of the muzzle of my test gun today, which in this case was a Kral NP-03 that just came in. It has a power adjustment dial like on my Akela, and I had it set at 3/4 of the way up toward full power.
The shooting lane I set up is flanked on one side by a long brick wall and the other, the house itself with cement stucco finish which hopefully provided for similar sound reflection patterns from either side. All shots made from same benched position shown in photos, at a target 75 feet away (barely visible at top left of long photo shot). Target was rubber mulch filled and made no detectable noise from back where I was.
I used JSB 18.13gr pellets for each shot traveling at an average of 750 fps.
My left side neighbor's A/C unit behind that wall was running the whole time (it was 104 degrees out) so no other ambient noises (if any) were obvious nor picked up by the sound meter, which also meant there were no other variations in detectable ambient sound levels due to the A/C's continual background noise. All in all the testing conditions for each LDC were as equivalent as I could make them.
I did not test for POI shift or accuracy or fps, just what decibel level of sound a neighbor might hear if they were just standing around outside.
Several of the LDCs were not testable (they either had proprietary threads or I had no proper adapter for the Kral, etc.) so here are the six that I Could test, in order of loudness, average db of three shots each:
Bare barrel 107.0 db (one shot only, too LOUD!)
ZeroDB 97.7 db
Geo ebay 97.6 db
Rocker1 93.2 db
Sumo 85.8 db
Tanto 85.5 db
HUMA 80.5 db
To be honest most of the LDCs sounded about the same to my ear (of course I was sitting right next to the gun as it was fired) and yet - the Huma was OBVIOUSLY quieter. Even from where I was sitting (yes Donny, you may have been right about the Huma all along)...and funny how the Tanto was actually quieter than its Sumo big brother.
So that's that. And that's all I have, interpret this as you will!
I will do more of this whenever I can afford to acquire more LDCs, since I purchase mine with personal funds to quell any perceptions of, or allusions to any favoritism towards donated products.
What is the diameter and length of each one?
What is the cost of each one?
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What is the diameter and length of each one?
What is the cost of each one?
Here you go...! ;D
This is the first version of a Silencer Specs Table....
Still missing quite a few models, but it's coming.
I'm grateful for links to other silencer models -- and TESTS!
The specs table gives you:
● Price, with link to seller/ store
● Connectors available
● Calibers available
● Length
● Weight
● Diameter
● Basic looks (plain, or carbon fiber plane, or decorative indentations and cutouts
● Focus is on PCPs
At the end of the specs table you get:
● Links to custom made silencers
● Loudness comparison test background data
● Links to sellers and prices
● The section with the photos I had to make into a separate file, it was too large for GTA....
Happy silencer shopping!! ;D
If there is one thing I learned at GTA it's this -- to be an ENABLER!! ;D ;D
Matthias
Attachments:
FIRST: Silencer Specs TableSECOND: Silencer PICs
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You rock JungleShooter!
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What is the diameter and length of each one?
What is the cost of each one?
Here you go...! ;D
This is the first version of a Silencer Specs Table....
Still missing quite a few models, but it's coming.
I'm grateful for links to other silencer models -- and TESTS!
The specs table gives you:
● Price, with link to seller/ store
● Connectors available
● Calibers available
● Length
● Weight
● Diameter
● Basic looks (plain, or carbon fiber plane, or decorative indentations and cutouts
● Focus is on PCPs
At the end of the specs table you get:
● Links to custom made silencers
● Loudness comparison test background data
● Links to sellers and prices
● The section with the photos I had to make into a separate file, it was too large for GTA....
Happy silencer shopping!! ;D
If there is one thing I learned at GTA it's this -- to be an ENABLER!! ;D ;D
Matthias
Attachments:
FIRST: Silencer Specs TableSECOND: Silencer PICs
Matthias, you ROCK bro! Thanks for the terrific references! Group effort!!!
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What is the diameter and length of each one?
What is the cost of each one?
Here you go...! ;D
This is the first version of a Silencer Specs Table....
Still missing quite a few models, but it's coming.
I'm grateful for links to other silencer models -- and TESTS!
The specs table gives you:
● Price, with link to seller/ store
● Connectors available
● Calibers available
● Length
● Weight
● Diameter
● Basic looks (plain, or carbon fiber plane, or decorative indentations and cutouts
● Focus is on PCPs
At the end of the specs table you get:
● Links to custom made silencers
● Loudness comparison test background data
● Links to sellers and prices
● The section with the photos I had to make into a separate file, it was too large for GTA....
Happy silencer shopping!! ;D
If there is one thing I learned at GTA it's this -- to be an ENABLER!! ;D ;D
Matthias
Attachments:
FIRST: Silencer Specs TableSECOND: Silencer PICs
WOW !!!
Thank you VERY much Matthias!
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I got the shipping notification, and my high flow Falx from STO should show up Monday. I will let you guys know what I think when I get my paws on it 8)
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I got the shipping notification, and my high flow Falx from STO should show up Monday. I will let you guys know what I think when I get my paws on it 8)
8) 8) 8) (where's the *eating popcorn* smiley?)
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I got the shipping notification, and my high flow Falx from STO should show up Monday. I will let you guys know what I think when I get my paws on it 8)
8) 8) 8) (where's the *eating popcorn* smiley?)
😮🍿 I'm there with you, lol
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I got the shipping notification, and my high flow Falx from STO should show up Monday. I will let you guys know what I think when I get my paws on it 8)
8) 8) 8) (where's the *eating popcorn* smiley?)
😮🍿 I'm there with you, lol
Hey Dallas how'd you do that? ; ???
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I got the shipping notification, and my high flow Falx from STO should show up Monday. I will let you guys know what I think when I get my paws on it 8)
8) 8) 8) (where's the *eating popcorn* smiley?)
😮🍿 I'm there with you, lol
Hey Dallas how'd you do that? ; ???
Believe it or not, my phone had the popcorn in the first slot for predicted emojis, simply because you used the word! It's an andriod, sony phone, but I'm assuming any android would do that.
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I got a surprise in the mail today! The STO Falx showed up earlier than expected :D I put some pictures below to show how it looks beside the other two LDCs that I use on my higher powered guns. I also threw one in there of the packaging, which was nice, and came with a card and STO sticker. It is basically 1.6 inches in diameter and 6.5" long. It seems to be very well made and robust. I suspect it is a little larger and sturdier than the low and moderate flow versions. I didn't pull it apart, but I did take the end cap off and peek inside. It seems to be very well designed for sure.
Okay to the testing... My testing was by no means very scientific, but it is what I could do today. Also, I did this testing indoors into my rubber mulch filled pellet trap, so not the best for testing LDCs. Both guns I tested it on use the LDC for all the of the sound reduction, as there are no shrouds to take up any of the air flow. First, I tried on the .22 tuned for 56-57 fpe shooting slugs. The long Huma lives on that gun. The results were very close! The Huma won, but not buy much. The STO wasn't much louder at all, but was a bit sharper in the report. In that case I prefer the Huma. The fact that it is even close is kind of amazing, given the size of the Huma.
Next, I swapped out the NC on my 34 fpe .177 slug shooter. The difference between the NC and the STO was much more obvious on this gun. It wasn't so much a difference in loudness as it was a difference in tone. Yes the NC was a little quieter, but the STO had a much lower tone to it. I do still prefer the NC on that gun, but that isn't a knock on the STO. I think performed very well considering, again, it was the smaller of the LDCs I tested.
Keep in mind, this was all by ear, and there were no measurements involved, AND this was indoors. I think the biggest difference I was noticing was a little bit of air "whoosh" after the shot. The STO works by slowing the air exit from the LDC, and not so much by sound deadening. It is a very different design from a conventional LDC. I also wonder if it would fair better on a higher powered gun. I say that, because both of the guns I tested it on fall dead in between STO's
recommendations of moderate and high flow versions. This is a small LDC to be dealing with the air volume these guns are pushing out, considering these are slug shooting small bores that are both shooting over 1000 fps. The results would likely be very different on a shrouded gun, in a good way.
In conclusion, I have to give the STO a strong 9 out of 10. I am comparing it to two of the best LDCs out there, both of which have more volume than the STO does. I think that speaks for itself. If I had compared it to a very similarly sized Sumo, it wouldn't have been remotely close. The STO would have won easily. Oh, the high flow version of the Falx only costs $134. I have to wonder what the results would have been on my .22 with the larger Sarissa from STO, since it is very close in size to my long Huma.
The testing isn't over though. Tomorrow, I plan to go shooting with some local friends that often shoot with. I intend to get them to test out the Falx on their various guns too! Many of which are .25 and .30 making a lot more power. These LDCs aren't caliber specific like many, and can handle up to a .30. If the right folks show up, it may be tested against some very high dollar LDCs. I look forward to reporting on that, and a retesting of my guns outdoors. More to come :D
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😮🍿 More popcorn eating commences, haha. That's some awesome results! I've been tempted to get a falx or sarissa, but cant decide. That and I cant ever quit turning the power up and down on any of my guns. I did have a very small STO moderator at one time. It was bonded polymer and carbon fibre. Extremely light. I managed to break it. The bonding came loose when I torqued it on or off a barrel. Can't recall which. I think I had dropped it at least once prior, and my dog had chewed on it as well ;D
I wasnt impressed with it other than the lightness. But I also did not have a gun with enough airflow at the time to really get it working, I dont think. All I had was a 1322 with MAX of 15fpe ::) It was also a compact model. A good sight smaller than the falx. The Dampening material (some type of dense sheet foam, that did not *seem to be porous) did not seem to do nearly as good as the thick felt in some others moderators.
Eager to see how yours does on the other guns 8) That is a mighty large 40mm huma, too :o
I read the falx is supposed to be easily serviceable, and upgradeable (in the future), as well? Sounds pretty cool.
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I was tempted to pull the core out and have a look, but I decided to wait until it got tested some more. These ones are aluminum, as are the end caps, so no worries about over tightening(within reason). I suppose it would matter more if you got the composite end caps to save 22 grams. I scoff at that, I need metal 8) It does seem pretty well built, and I don't see it breaking easily.
I think there is something to having enough power to make them work to their full potential, which is why they're available in 3 flavors. It did a better job comparatively speaking on the .22, considering the size. The guys I shoot with often bring some pretty high powered guns in the .25 and .30 range, so we'll see what it can really do I expect ;) I don't know if he's coming tomorrow, but one of the guys has a daystate .25 shooting around 60 fpe with a Ramus Trident. That will be an excellent LDC to compare it to right there! I never know which guns they are bringing, until they show up though. It could be anything from pretty much any air gun maker out there,lol. Those guys have some pretty awesome collections.
If the Falx is any indicator so far, I'm betting that Sarissa would VERY quiet on some heavy breathing air guns...
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I got a surprise in the mail today! The STO Falx showed up earlier than expected :D I put some pictures below to show how it looks beside the other two LDCs that I use on my higher powered guns. I also threw one in there of the packaging, which was nice, and came with a card and STO sticker. It is basically 1.6 inches in diameter and 6.5" long. It seems to be very well made and robust. I suspect it is a little larger and sturdier than the low and moderate flow versions. I didn't pull it apart, but I did take the end cap off and peek inside. It seems to be very well designed for sure.
Okay to the testing... My testing was by no means very scientific, but it is what I could do today. Also, I did this testing indoors into my rubber mulch filled pellet trap, so not the best for testing LDCs. Both guns I tested it on use the LDC for all the of the sound reduction, as there are no shrouds to take up any of the air flow. First, I tried on the .22 tuned for 56-57 fpe shooting slugs. The long Huma lives on that gun. The results were very close! The Huma won, but not buy much. The STO wasn't much louder at all, but was a bit sharper in the report. In that case I prefer the Huma. The fact that it is even close is kind of amazing, given the size of the Huma.
Next, I swapped out the NC on my 34 fpe .177 slug shooter. The difference between the NC and the STO was much more obvious on this gun. It wasn't so much a difference in loudness as it was a difference in tone. Yes the NC was a little quieter, but the STO had a much lower tone to it. I do still prefer the NC on that gun, but that isn't a knock on the STO. I think performed very well considering, again, it was the smaller of the LDCs I tested.
Keep in mind, this was all by ear, and there were no measurements involved, AND this was indoors. I think the biggest difference I was noticing was a little bit of air "whoosh" after the shot. The STO works by slowing the air exit from the LDC, and not so much by sound deadening. It is a very different design from a conventional LDC. I also wonder if it would fair better on a higher powered gun. I say that, because both of the guns I tested it on fall dead in between STO's
recommendations of moderate and high flow versions. This is a small LDC to be dealing with the air volume these guns are pushing out, considering these are slug shooting small bores that are both shooting over 1000 fps. The results would likely be very different on a shrouded gun, in a good way.
In conclusion, I have to give the STO a strong 9 out of 10. I am comparing it to two of the best LDCs out there, both of which have more volume than the STO does. I think that speaks for itself. If I had compared it to a very similarly sized Sumo, it wouldn't have been remotely close. The STO would have won easily. Oh, the high flow version of the Falx only costs $134. I have to wonder what the results would have been on my .22 with the larger Sarissa from STO, since it is very close in size to my long Huma.
The testing isn't over though. Tomorrow, I plan to go shooting with some local friends that often shoot with. I intend to get them to test out the Falx on their various guns too! Many of which are .25 and .30 making a lot more power. These LDCs aren't caliber specific like many, and can handle up to a .30. If the right folks show up, it may be tested against some very high dollar LDCs. I look forward to reporting on that, and a retesting of my guns outdoors. More to come :D
Aww man I'm jealous. And very interesting report Donny, plus it came surprisingly quick.
Hey I should be getting a TKO and a Weihrauch (which shipped today but it's coming all the way from Poland) so maybe I'll have a report for you guys soon.
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Dallas going by your description it sounds like you have a prior STO model and they have since changed their design or build process?
By the way I found out how to do the popcorn thing on phone, but I just can't do it from computer...
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Donny BTW the comment about opening it up to take a look is so compelling, especially if their design is best put into action by higher power. To me that could mean no fragile internals like hair curlers or felt, just a solid monocore machined form metal or delrin, perhaps?
Inquiring minds want to know - when you're ready that is ;)
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Well, Donny, I cant say the design was too dissimilar from other moderators I have, and have no issues with. These had an option for metal threads ::) At any rate, the new ones do look very sturdy. But I am also very curious to see the core. From the sound of it you could request to buy a different type of core, and just swap them out.... ? The product description implies that, anyhow.
It sounds like it'll be a good shoot either way as long as the weather is good. :D Here's hoping it will, and a suitable challenger for the falx will show up!
Dallas going by your description it sounds like you have a prior STO model and they have since changed their design or build process?
By the way I found out how to do the popcorn thing on phone, but I just can't do it from computer...
I copied and pasted it from my old post to do it on my computer ;D I still have no idea either. :-X
Yes, the one I had was a shorter version of the first one STO sold.
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Guys, I kinda failed at giving the STO a full and proper testing, like I had planned. We had a new guy shooting with us today, so a lot of time was spent helping him get his gun dialed it. I really wanted to test it on his gun(Daystate Renegade at 60 fpe), but we didn't need to introduce any new variables there,lol. I also go distracted shooting stuff at very long range :D. I did get to stick the STO on a .30 Bully that was shooting about 96 fpe though. It lowered the report of that monster pretty good considering the size of the Falx. It went from annoyingly loud to very tolerable, and the Bully didn't blow it up at least. I wouldn't have called it back yard friendly though. It would take a lot more LDC to make that gun back yard friendly. I also slapped it on a BT 65, and all you could hear was hammer slap on that gun.
I think my initial impressions still stand. That is, it may be one of the best LDCs out there for it's size. Given the price and build, I'd say it is in the top tier for sure. I'll try and pull the core out in the next day or two to give you guys a look. Normally, I wouldn't want to do that, because it could reveal "trade secrets". In the case of STO, I don't think that would be an issue, since they clearly show all the differences between the designs and the theory behind them on their site/blog posts.
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We all appreciate your efforts Donny.
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We all appreciate your efforts Donny.
+5 you bet! Nice testing Donny.
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Here's one more minor effort for ya, haha. A picture of the core! I didn't completely disassemble it, since the part on the end comes apart too, but that is basically a small section of sound deadening materials. You can see that the high flow version has 4 gas diodes. The pictures don't do it justice, and there is a lot more going on in that core than it would appear. It is built pretty darn solid, and the 3D printed part appears to be fiber re-enforced upon close inspection... It should be plenty strong for an air gun, but would certainly destroy itself if not used as intended. It had no problem dealing with the 97fpe .30 fwiw.
As I mentioned previously, I wouldn't normally show this picture, but STO openly discusses the design on the links posted previously. The discussion also shows the digital representations of the build and principles behind the gas diodes. I believe they also make the 3D file available to people who purchase their LDCs, provided you don't make it public, of course. The LDC is designed so the core can be replaced or updated in the future(should improvements be made).
I gotta say, after looking at the core, there's a lot of coolness going on with this very unique LDC. I can only imagine how well the larger Sarissa would work. I bet it could tame some serious air guns for sure. I still feel safe highly recommending the STO LDCs. I haven't personally seen another one of this size or price that can do what this one can do. That's all I got for now, enjoy!
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That's pretty wild looking! And I do think the two hatsans were a pretty good test for it. I've inevitably ended up setting up a good number of moderators with only a little sound dampening at the tip like that. Seems to be the most effective there, and anywhere else, additionally, is hardly consequential.
Thanks again for reporting back, and sharing :) I still think the most effective design I have worked with is a reflexed shroud, simple cone baffles forwar, with tight clearances. And felt in the end.
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Here's one more minor effort for ya, haha. A picture of the core! I didn't completely disassemble it, since the part on the end comes apart too, but that is basically a small section of sound deadening materials. You can see that the high flow version has 4 gas diodes. The pictures don't do it justice, and there is a lot more going on in that core than it would appear. It is built pretty darn solid, and the 3D printed part appears to be fiber re-enforced upon close inspection... It should be plenty strong for an air gun, but would certainly destroy itself if not used as intended. It had no problem dealing with the 97fpe .30 fwiw.
As I mentioned previously, I wouldn't normally show this picture, but STO openly discusses the design on the links posted previously. The discussion also shows the digital representations of the build and principles behind the gas diodes. I believe they also make the 3D file available to people who purchase their LDCs, provided you don't make it public, of course. The LDC is designed so the core can be replaced or updated in the future(should improvements be made).
I gotta say, after looking at the core, there's a lot of coolness going on with this very unique LDC. I can only imagine how well the larger Sarissa would work. I bet it could tame some serious air guns for sure. I still feel safe highly recommending the STO LDCs. I haven't personally seen another one of this size or price that can do what this one can do. That's all I got for now, enjoy!
Wow Wow Wow Donny, We're Not Worthy!
So is that a 3D printed core that just looks "fuzzy"? Or are there indeed fibers of some kind wound around it?
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That Falx is actually a rather large unit, 47% bigger than HW. It would be very interesting to compare those 3d printed internals vs. some old fashioned 3 chambers + felt + curlers setup. I've tried that with few silencers and the old school approach was always more quiet, well with the exception of AWT internals + felt which was the quietest.
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Some point I may do some measurements to back up what I think I'm observing.
I also don't know enough about building these for my experiences to be particularly relevant because I might be making obvious design flaws.
I've tested out maybe 15 to 20 different designs using curlers, 3-D printed guts, and also an all metal one with the vented metal baffle cone cups.
I'm able to get the quietest by far with the 3-D printed compared to felt curlers and the metal baffles.
There is a significant "timbre" Difference which is of course not the same as a difference in volume. In general, 3d printed plastic baffles with no felt or curlers gets the sound the deadest , a kind of "thunk". My curler / washer baffle tests produced a similar tone but not as quiet. And I got pretty creative with stuffing those curlers and felt in all kinds of combinations.
The metal cup baffles make more of a hiss - higher pitched air flow sound, but quiet enough.
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Some point I may do some measurements to back up what I think I'm observing.
I also don't know enough about building these for my experiences to be particularly relevant because I might be making obvious design flaws.
I've tested out maybe 15 to 20 different designs using curlers, 3-D printed guts, and also an all metal one with the vented metal baffle cone cups.
I'm able to get the quietest by far with the 3-D printed compared to felt curlers and the metal baffles.
There is a significant "timbre" Difference which is of course not the same as a difference in volume. In general, 3d printed plastic baffles with no felt or curlers gets the sound the deadest , a kind of "thunk". My curler / washer baffle tests produced a similar tone but not as quiet. And I got pretty creative with stuffing those curlers and felt in all kinds of combinations.
The metal cup baffles make more of a hiss - higher pitched air flow sound, but quiet enough.
Decibel peak at higher frequency usually sounds like more quiet, even if it measures higher than a peak at low frequency. There comes a point when you need to consider if quiet sounding is better than low dB peak.
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Here's one more minor effort for ya, haha. A picture of the core! I didn't completely disassemble it, since the part on the end comes apart too, but that is basically a small section of sound deadening materials. You can see that the high flow version has 4 gas diodes. The pictures don't do it justice, and there is a lot more going on in that core than it would appear. It is built pretty darn solid, and the 3D printed part appears to be fiber re-enforced upon close inspection... It should be plenty strong for an air gun, but would certainly destroy itself if not used as intended. It had no problem dealing with the 97fpe .30 fwiw.
As I mentioned previously, I wouldn't normally show this picture, but STO openly discusses the design on the links posted previously. The discussion also shows the digital representations of the build and principles behind the gas diodes. I believe they also make the 3D file available to people who purchase their LDCs, provided you don't make it public, of course. The LDC is designed so the core can be replaced or updated in the future(should improvements be made).
I gotta say, after looking at the core, there's a lot of coolness going on with this very unique LDC. I can only imagine how well the larger Sarissa would work. I bet it could tame some serious air guns for sure. I still feel safe highly recommending the STO LDCs. I haven't personally seen another one of this size or price that can do what this one can do. That's all I got for now, enjoy!
Wow Wow Wow Donny, We're Not Worthy!
So is that a 3D printed core that just looks "fuzzy"? Or are there indeed fibers of some kind wound around it?
It just looks fuzzy, because of the way the light is reflecting off the material.
That Falx is actually a rather large unit, 47% bigger than HW. It would be very interesting to compare those 3d printed internals vs. some old fashioned 3 chambers + felt + curlers setup. I've tried that with few silencers and the old school approach was always more quiet, well with the exception of AWT internals + felt which was the quietest.
It is hard to tell from the picture, but the outer ridges of the core fit snug enough inside the housing that they appear to act as baffles, on top of the gas diodes in the center of the core. It is a very unique design, as I mentioned, there's a lot more going on in that core than the picture shows. Is it the best design out there? I don't know, but it is a good one. I still default to the Huma being the best all around, due to the flexibility of adding chamber/deadening sections. Size aside, you can make the Huma handle almost any job.
Today, I also tested the STO on a Nova .22 that I tuned to 50 fpe with JSB Monsters. This isn't my gun, but a friend's that I tuned. This was bare barrel with no shroud. It had a Huma Mod40 on it that was the exact same length as the Falx, so a good comparison. I need to test it outdoors to get a solid opinion, but it seemed to be slightly quieter than the Huma. It is hard to tell for sure with the bottle ping and the pellet impact in the trap though. It is, at the very least, as good as the Huma. I would love to see some frequency readings and db numbers from some proper equipment. Too bad I have none of that stuff.
That's pretty wild looking! And I do think the two hatsans were a pretty good test for it. I've inevitably ended up setting up a good number of moderators with only a little sound dampening at the tip like that. Seems to be the most effective there, and anywhere else, additionally, is hardly consequential.
Thanks again for reporting back, and sharing :) I still think the most effective design I have worked with is a reflexed shroud, simple cone baffles forwar, with tight clearances. And felt in the end.
I think the design with the most volume to deal with the air will almost always win(all other things being equal). Be it venting into a shroud or a larger LDC. There's only so much that can be done with a given volume. You can make a smaller LDC with a lower peak db level, but there will be other noises involved, and likely more sustained ones(delayed whoosh).
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I'm generally getting quieter shots with plastic printed cores compared to three chamber / curler ldc in the same volume, and I experimented with the curlers quite a bit
You can make some pretty high surface area things with a 3-D printer and really mess with airflow pretty effectively I think
I just started a 10 hour print to make an airstripper of my own design to go in front of my 3-D printed baffle cores. Basically the air is diverted outward into a series of nested outer cylinders, with the air directed to follow a long path between the cylinders to escape. It was a challenge to model. Who Knows if it will be effective but it's fun to try these things out.
Can I post a picture of a 3-D model of an air stripper? Or will I get a warning for that?
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Any updates?