GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: Allen Rice on August 31, 2020, 10:59:39 AM
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Okay, gang, in your experience which is the better choice: break-barrel or Fixed-barrel?
ar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bC4xBBnfQsk&t=18s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bC4xBBnfQsk&t=18s)
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Not "better"; preference: Break barrel.
In theory a fixed barrel should be more accurate. I don't like heavy air rifles because I like to shoot offhand, so break barrel for me.
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As above, I don't rate one or the other as better. Both have their advantages. I, too, love offhand shooting and the weight of a typical under lever springer for an old gal like me is a deal breaker for that kind of shooting. Off the bench, though, that weights an advantage.
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I have many fixed barrel air rifles.
Some are very expensive and...heavy.
But the best for me are the two break barrels.
The R1 and the R1’s daddy, the HW35.
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I think it comes down to quality first over simply one design over another. My beeman R9 is as accurate or more as my D460 was. Now, the quality part is more important on a break barrel for longevity of the barrel joint/lockup. If you were comparing cheap made breaker vs fixed, I would take the fixed...but i don't like cheap stuff personally. What I DO like is the shorter length and lighter weight of break barrels over fixed.
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"which is the better choice: break-barrel or Fixed-barrel"
Both are "best" so I vote both fixed barrel and break barrel 'pending on it's use.
I've owned a .177 HW77k "fixed barrel", a .177 Beeman R10 "break barrel", a couple R9 "break barrels", and a .177 HW95 break barrel. For me the "best" for GENERAL SHOOTING were/are the break barrels but the extra weight of the "77k" did make it easier to shoot accurately (less hold sensitive). Also, since the "fixed barrel" doesn't have a pivoting "break barrel" the length of the scope isn't limited as it is on the "break barrel" as long as the scope is mounted high enough to clear the loading port.
While the HW77k was easier to shoot accurately than my R9 so I used the HW77k when shooting an occasional "state and national level FT match", for local hunter class field target matches (and general airgunning) I use my .177 R9 or .177 HW95 due to lighter weight and more convenient cocking/loading (no need to put loading fingers into a "bear trap"). For state/national level piston class field target matches years ago the HW77k served me well and I was able to take 4th place at the 2010 Nationals shooting hunter class. That was the first year the hunter class was offered at a national match and due to the relatively low hunter class participation piston and PCP hunter class shooters were combined. There were 17 hft entries for that match and all hft shooters but 5 were shooting PCPs, still, I was still able to take 4th place on that mixed field with the HW77k and 4-16x40 Bushnell Elite 4200 AO scope with a duplex reticle.........
(https://i.imgur.com/GexJKzMl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/OxxRvj9l.jpg)
Here are a couple groups shot using one on my break barrels shot when I was steady & consistent on the bucket and cross sticks (doesn't always happen) so I don't think I could do better with a fixed barrel springer.......
(https://i.imgur.com/8SZm6IEl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/6jbM8Jwl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/9CVD7jnl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/eIKiookl.jpg)
Anywhoo.......I didn't use the HW77k very much compared to the R9 so it was after moving to North Carolina. Have only been using my R9 or HW95 since so FOR ME the break barrels are better for my general all around shooting...........
(https://i.imgur.com/eHEAp7ol.jpg)
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Theory would have fixed barrels ahead...in practice is doesn't seem to matter, although break barrel lock up can get sloppy over time.
If you believe there is a difference,then likely you'll find one.
Problem being it can't be the same exact rifle tested two ways.
The lock-latch type were popular(HW 55), and most people used the rotational latch. Other springers used a manual latch, but really had to use the latch (didn't have an either/or choice).
Even with that, was not the solid barrel mounting of an under lever or side lever...they shot great simply because thy were fitted well.
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What everyone says about weight.
I chose a fixed barrel because I figured it would not have any droop... wrong assumption. It did. So along with my D48's weight and strong cocking effort it took a lot of time, money, and effort to mount my scope the way I wanted it... all because it had the typical Diana droop.
I'm not sure there is a definitive characteristic that makes either stand apart from the other. Both have attributes I like and I'm happy with both, personally, for those reasons.
So maybe the answer is, as always here... get both kinds. :) :)
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I've got both. Both are equally capable--more so accurate than I am able.
Archie
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Which is the better choice.... For what ?
It comes down to your preferences or practise.
If I shoot from a bench rest, I definitely prefer a fixed barrel. Same as for HFT competition.
But..., when I am plinking or shoot from a standing position, I defintely prefer a break barrel.
Personally, my experience is that I shoot easier / less hold sensitive with a fixed barrel. I do not like the weight of a fixed barrel, while the weight is certainly adding to the accuracy.
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I can't vote because I have mostly break barrels finding them so easy to operate and use.
But I've also got a sidelever with a straight and fixed barrel all tidied up for dangerous shooting at extended range--the D54 .20 H.S. (Hector Special)--to make the best use of a pellet and power piston properly assembled to last forever!
If I wanted to kill something at long range like a steely target I cannot accept the lack of accuracy the break barrel has. Maybe in the HW98 I can say that break barrel is way different than most so it is just as good as a D54 within its own limits. Both good rifles and the best in my inventory!
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I can't vote because I have mostly break barrels finding them so easy to operate and use.
But I've also got a sidelever with a straight and fixed barrel all tidied up for dangerous shooting at extended range--the D54 .20 H.S. (Hector Special)--to make the best use of a pellet and power piston properly assembled to last forever!
If I wanted to kill something at long range like a steely target I cannot accept the lack of accuracy the break barrel has. Maybe in the HW98 I can say that break barrel is way different than most so it is just as good as a D54 within its own limits. Both good rifles and the best in my inventory!
"Maybe in the HW98 I can say that break barrel "
Hummm.....I haven't noticed any "lack of accuracy the break barrel has" with either my HW95 or the HW98 I tuned for a fellow! I'm of the notion that most of my "lack of break barrel accuracy" is simply due to this shooter swayin' on a bucket restin' the gun on cross sticks.
(https://i.imgur.com/8SZm6IEl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/v6Ug0yHl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/d5v1VdPl.jpg)
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I prefer fixed barrels, to be exact, underlevers. However, the issue of which is more accurate is moot these days. My stable has half break barrels, half underlevers. Not by any design...just the way it worked out!
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All other variables aside (many),... fixed barrel equals one less (possible) variable. I had the TX200 and LGU. Now into PCP's.
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"although break barrel lock up can get sloppy over time"
This is true, however the "get sloppy" is a rather drawn out process but excess barrel pivot bolt tension can speed up the "sloppy adjustment". Here is a target I shot a few years ago when checking out the trajectory of a specific tune/pellet combination.........
(https://i.imgur.com/a7azSngl.jpg)
This session consisted of 265 shots "from bucket and sticks" (after a couple thousand previous shots) and by the time a 5 shot group was shot at the 45 yard bull I decided to "snug up" the pivot bolt a bit. The minor pivot bolt tightening did move the poi about 3/4" to the right because pivot bolt tension does affect the windage of the poi.
When adjusting the pivot bolt trension I don't use the Beeman recommended tension from the old R9 owner manuals. Beeman suggested that the pivot bolt be tightened enough so the unlatched barrel would JUST HOLD at any position on the "barrel swing arc". IMHO, this puts excess friction on the barrel shims which causes more "barrel shim wear" than the JUST FALL at any position on the "barrel swing arc" that I use. The "barrel latching chisels" need to put consistent compression on the breech seal and the "lighter barrel tension setting" allows more consistent breech seal compression when the barrel is re-latched. Every HW break barrel I've owned had the barrel pivot tension set much too tight straight from the box so the first thing I do with a new HW break barrel is to reset the tension to the JUST FALL at any position on the "barrel swing arc".
As far as the barrel latch up becoming sloppy, with a quality break barrel like those from HW the wear causing the sloppiness is very gradual and zeroing the gun on occasion accommodates the changes without even noticing. Whenever I start a shooting session the first thing done is a 30 yard zero. The reason is that even changes in atmospheric conditions such as temperature, humidity, etc can change the poi from shooting session to shooting session be it piston gun or PCP..
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ED,
Thanks for the interesting information on adjusting the pivot bolt on a break barrel. I'll have to try that technique.
ar
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I don't have any experience with fixed barrel springers. The chaps on Verminhunterstv channel on Youtube have shot some exceptional groups with well-tuned breakbarrels. Si Pittaway says his breakbarrels are every bit as accurate as his fixed barrels.
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Does take a long time for a break barrelhinge/pivot to get sloppy if it started out life well fitted.
But they will wear over time...and you will need to readjust them.So gradual you won't notice anything wrong for a long time....it just kind of creeps in when you aren't looking.
It's basically the same wear that under levers get...but there a little pivot loosness is no big deal to accuracy...we just don't like the rattle (and a loose heavy part may play games with the vibration pattern).
Also noticed that how you close the barrel on a break barrel does seem to make a difference. The "sneaky" soft.quiet close (may want to do that when hunting) probably doesn't set the latch quite the same as your normal firm closing......never had the heart to really test the fast hard snap type close.
Still...I like break barrels. Hands/fingers are in a better location in case of an "Oops".
BAsically we all get sloppy. They build anti-bear trap systems. Any system can fail,but if you DON'T get sloppy and always keep you hand on the cocking system (barrelbreak,side lever,underlever) it just scares you.
THe break barrel and under lever seem more natural to me...holding that lever with your off-hand and loading a pellet with your dominate hand works for me. Cocking a side lever with your strong hand and loading with your left doesn't seem as comforatable.
it's psycologic...which doesn't make it any less real to me.
Years ago had a malfuction with a Webley Osprey(tap loader-side lever). Results were purely my fault in 4 main ways: I swapped hands ...let go of the side lever...trusted the anti-bear trap...and had my little finger where it shouldn't have been.
5th mistake was hidden...ragged soft-case fibers had fouled the anti-bear trap system...maybe just there, maybe contributed to the "oops"....Still my fault for the ragged case.
Last mashed 1/3" of my pinky was dangling,but still had some blood flow,so they sewed back into place and it took.
PINKY KILLER....got sold to a Webley fan (with appropriate warnings).
(https://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/rifle%20pixs/IMG_3695_zpsd3143870.jpg) (https://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/rifle%20pixs/IMG_3695_zpsd3143870.jpg.html)
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I wasn't implying lack of accuracy for the power plant, say R9, but for the accuracy and reach (longer ranges) the D54 is the only reasonable alternative using lead pellets at the stuff we shoot at.
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Intuitively, you’d think that a rigid gun would be more accurate, and yet there have been a lot of very accurate break barrel firearms. Before the side lever FWB300, pretty much every Olympic/ISSF air rifle I can think of was a break barrel design.
Break barrels load faster. You can put a barrel shroud on side levers and underlevers like the TX200HC. It’s all trade offs.
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I agree with Josh when he said, "I think it comes down to quality first over simply one design over another."
I, like so many others, couldn't vote. I own both fixed and break barrels. It would be like comparing a wadcutter with a hollow point.
It a matter of preference as to which one someone may prefer over the other rather than which is better.
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Our break barrels see significantly more use than our under levers. Much of that is the weight issue, since I'm another one who loves offhand shooting. Even when sitting at the bench, I more often shoot the gun unsupported, instead of using a rest. I definitely prefer loading a break barrel, too. As for accuracy, I do just as well with either type for the type of shooting I do. When I start to get hysterical about group size, I just go to one of our PCPs till the urge passes, anyway. :)
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Our break barrels see significantly more use than our under levers. Much of that is the weight issue, since I'm another one who loves offhand shooting. Even when sitting at the bench, I more often shoot the gun unsupported, instead of using a rest. I definitely prefer loading a break barrel, too. As for accuracy, I do just as well with either type for the type of shooting I do. When I start to get hysterical about group size, I just go to one of our PCPs till the urge passes, anyway. :)
Aaaaaaaw. You just had to throw in that last sentence and ruin your whole reply. :'(
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Our break barrels see significantly more use than our under levers. Much of that is the weight issue, since I'm another one who loves offhand shooting. Even when sitting at the bench, I more often shoot the gun unsupported, instead of using a rest. I definitely prefer loading a break barrel, too. As for accuracy, I do just as well with either type for the type of shooting I do. When I start to get hysterical about group size, I just go to one of our PCPs till the urge passes, anyway. :)
Aaaaaaaw. You just had to throw in that last sentence and ruin your whole reply. :'(
Yep, I agree. But I understand that some just can't hit anything with a springer, for them there is the PCP. ;D Hehehe
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I can't shoot springers accurately.
However, I can do fairly good with the Browning Leverage .177 at times.
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I can't shoot springers accurately.
However, I can do fairly good with the Browning Leverage .177 at times.
I bet you can shoot my Parrus accurately. I shoot it with an artillery hold but I catch myself gripping the from forearm. It's not hold sensitive at all, reminds me of shooting a powder burner.
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Our break barrels see significantly more use than our under levers. Much of that is the weight issue, since I'm another one who loves offhand shooting. Even when sitting at the bench, I more often shoot the gun unsupported, instead of using a rest. I definitely prefer loading a break barrel, too. As for accuracy, I do just as well with either type for the type of shooting I do. When I start to get hysterical about group size, I just go to one of our PCPs till the urge passes, anyway. :)
Aaaaaaaw. You just had to throw in that last sentence and ruin your whole reply. :'(
Yep, I agree. But I understand that some just can't hit anything with a springer, for them there is the PCP. ;D Hehehe
" I understand that some just can't hit anything with a springer"
I've had more than one PCP shooter give me the same response to the "why don't you shoot a springer" question on the field target course. Must be true since I was the sole hunter class piston shooter at a national field target match in Heflin, AL a few years ago and (evidently) the PCP is so easy to shoot accurately that most shooters have abandoned the "hard to shoot" piston guns!
Anywhoo... hunter class field target shooting isn't much fun (for me) anymore since I'm not good enough of a ft competitor to score well (or even mediocre) on the current field target set-ups! I'm guessing that IF I coughed up the coin for a PCP, hand pump, (or buy the required life support system) and count shots, I MIGHT shoot better scores, however I prefer to keep the simplicity of my HW95 setup and not mess with the hassles/expense of a blow up gun.
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Hey, don't hold shooting PCPs against me. Okay, when shooting s PCP, I wish it was a springer. Does that count? :)
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I love under lever guns. I've never had an opportunity to shoot a side lever. Break barrels tend to be cheaper and lighter for a given power level. That's why I own a bunch of break barrel guns and only one under lever. Maybe fixed barrel springers are more accurate or at any rate, more consistent than break barrels. I think the quality of manufacture has more to do with accuracy. Now will a break barrel gun eventually wear out at the pivot? I think so. I've got a 30 year old B-3. Stone hammer simple. Not very powerful but it will shoot anything you feed it and it just runs and runs and runs. I don't expect any of my Chinese break barrels to last 10 years! :P
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The barrel type isn't one of the top factors for me. Barrel quality, second stage trigger creep, pellet match to the barrel and barrel weight on the fore grip for off hand shooting matter much more to me. Unlike the top WFTF shooters that have fancy hamsters to lock their elbows in, I need a light barrel, even on a springer.
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Untuned out of the box I'd recommend the R9.
I am just now shooting it as accurately as Hector's rifle, the D54. It seems the right pellet found this rifle after so many years of owning it: AA Express Diablo (.177, nced!)
Now this rifle is getting shot most of the time, and in reality it has been shot more than the newer HW95Ls in .22 and .25 to date.
This whole set-up has very little cost considering, with a Beeman (made in China) 4X scope and sports match rings I know it costs less than a PCP and yet it's a break barrel that's easy to "know" over the years.
So I voted! ;D
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I have both. Only my fixed barrel is for sale. Not because it's not as accurate. It just not my preference. It's like chocolate and vanilla. Ones not better than the other except to the person who prefers one over the other.
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My hw77 is a beast with accuracy, as long as it was on a bench. Like many others have said, “the weight is a killer.”
Accurately shooting freehanded is far easier for myself with a 34 or 95. I sold both to get a 77 against advice here, cause i wanted a under-lever, BIG! mistake on my part.
Since then, I rebought a break barrel hw50s, and am currently in trade for 95L hunter for the 77.
But I carry and plink, the only time i shoot paper is sighting in.
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Does anyone else have a Gamo Accu? Under lever that only weighs 6.6 lbs un-scoped. Most accurate non-PCP air rifle I have. Better than my R9. No need for artillery hold - shoots off bags very well. I have two in .22 and one in .177 and all 3 are very accurate. I converted 2 of them to gas ram which did not impact their accuracy but did get rid of the springer twang.
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This thread and all the shooting I've done this summer has me thinking of selling off at least some of my under lever HWs and AAs.
As I mentioned, most of my shooting is sans rest, either from a standing position or even just sitting at the bench and forgoing the rest. As I've also stated in other posts, I find the issue of springer consistency and consequent changes in POI to be almost a non-factor in my offhand shooting, but I definitely do notice it and have to deal with it more when trying to shoot springers off a rest. Sorry, no offense folks, but when I want to shoot off a rest, I just give myself a break and go PCP.
The problem with the HW and AA under levers for me and my shooting is the weight and all the more so now that I just turned the big 7-0 over the summer. The more manageable weight of my beloved HW break barrels is the main reason my springer shooting is now almost exclusively with the break barrels. In fact I 'm am quite happy and content doing all of my shooting without a rest just with my break barrel springers. Those I will never sell.
Anyway, just a heads up, if I do sell off some of those HW and AA break barrels, I will post in the classifieds, here.
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It all came down to simplicity for me. Started simple with a break barrel and now finally feeling an R9 is what I should have bought next!