GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: mackeral5 on June 12, 2020, 02:52:58 PM
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I am planning to sleeve a .25 FX STX liner with CF tubing. The liner measures just under 9.1mm in diameter. Loctite 680 specifications claim .38 mm gap fill, which isn't enough to use 10mm CF tubing--I would definitely have concerns about the liner being perfectly parallel with 10mm tubing.
I have doubts about my ability to consistently increase ID of 9mm tubing as well as my ability to consistently decrease the OD of the liner down to 9mm.
Recommendations??
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I am glad your doing this. Those liners will fall in price now that the superior liner is out. There are 4 of them for $220.00 on the AGN classifieds.
A great cottage industry potent8al there.
Regards,
Roachcreek
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Why not use spacers/shims/orings (to the likes that increase the od to 9.8~mm concentrically) (3 or 4 down the length of barrel) to keep it centered in a 10mm tube? Adhering then should be quite easy to keep concentric.
I'd personally do 2 spacers, one on each end, with small feed holes. Plug one feed hole, fill with loctite let cure, flip and repeat if necessary.
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Why not use spacers/shims/orings (to the likes that increase the od to 9.8~mm concentrically) (3 or 4 down the length of barrel) to keep it centered in a 10mm tube? Adhering then should be quite easy to keep concentric.
I'd personally do 2 spacers, one on each end, with small feed holes. Plug one feed hole, fill with loctite let cure, flip and repeat if necessary.
Sounds reasonable, I have considered using 10mm and some form of bushings.
I am hopeful someone who has actually completed the task will chime in. Ideally someone will reply and say order ABC tubing from ABC vendor, it's the perfect size......but that may be too much to ask lol.
I am still debating which gun the sleeve will ultimately go in. The B51 project triggered the purchase, but it would be pretty cool to put a little longer barrel in the P15 and shave some weight at the same time. then you have the fact that I don't intend the p15 to be a longer range gun, so would possibly be wasting the liner's potential.....decisions, decisions....
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There is a video somewhere with Ernest doing exactly that.
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I propose an elegant solution. Sell all your air guns and buy an fx impact instead of barreling them all with fx liners. ;D
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I am planning to sleeve a .25 FX STX liner with CF tubing. The liner measures just under 9.1mm in diameter. Loctite 680 specifications claim .38 mm gap fill, which isn't enough to use 10mm CF tubing--I would definitely have concerns about the liner being perfectly parallel with 10mm tubing.
I have doubts about my ability to consistently increase ID of 9mm tubing as well as my ability to consistently decrease the OD of the liner down to 9mm.
Recommendations??
Mike, I have done several. One cf tube was a slip fit. I will try and find the order on the bay.
the other was as yours, and I used tooth pics to align at the very ends. As it had to be shortened,it worked perfectly.
The tooth pics were used as wedges, but being tiny (tips only inserted) they did not cause any issues. I used loctite first. The creeping formula. However, I later learned that there were sections inside that were still liquid after a week.
GRRRR.
I switched to industrial strength JB metal weld and other than having to work fast to fit the tube, it worked perfectly. You have seen the targets of this barrel here on the forum.
Mike
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Found it! ;D
for what ever reason it not what I ordered showing in the actual pic in the link.
Simply scroll down and there is a huge listing of what it available. If not listed, contact seller. He is slow, but very high quality. (I have bought some that was terrible)!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Glossy-12mm-OD-8mm-ID-1000mm-Length-3K-Roll-Carbon-Fiber-Tube-12-8-1000/283042430587?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Glossy-12mm-OD-8mm-ID-1000mm-Length-3K-Roll-Carbon-Fiber-Tube-12-8-1000/283042430587?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649)
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My Skyhawk is shooting slugs better than it has any right to. But now that I have seen what slugs can do I want to see what they’ll do with a purpose made barrel.
I also like to tinker. And I have a lathe. The FX liner seems hard to beat. This project is at the top of my todo list.
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Matt----I would still have to fork out well over a grand after selling all of my guns....a fair price isn't very much for a bunch of hacked up mod'd guns, lol
Mike/Knife---thanks for the referral, the .25 liner is roughly 9.1mm vs. 8mm. I think I've settled on using 10mm tubing.
The good news is that I don't have to rush anything now that the liner is here and I know what I'm up against. This one may sit on the shelf a little while......
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I've increased the ID of the carbon fiber tube with a split dowel and 80 grit sand paper chucked up in my cordless drill. Took a few changes of paper but worked well.
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Could probably use 3/8 inch id carbon tube. Should be close enough. Btw I've used jb weld on all of my carbon fiber sleeved barrels. Never had an issue with one yet
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If it were my project, I'd sleeve the TP section in steel, and the rest in CF. I believe (please correct me if I'm wrong) that you only need a minimum of 1 caliber depth of CF in the breech to take advantage of the stiffness- more is better of course. Personally, I'd also sleeve the muzzle end and thread it for an LDC as well... Only need enough to make threads and have a good shoulder for the LDC to butt up against.
By "STX", I assume you mean the original smooth twist barrels? I hope y'all are right- I've been wanting to build something in .25 using one of those barrels for a long time...
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If it were my project, I'd sleeve the TP section in steel, and the rest in CF. I believe (please correct me if I'm wrong) that you only need a minimum of 1 caliber depth of CF in the breech to take advantage of the stiffness- more is better of course. Personally, I'd also sleeve the muzzle end and thread it for an LDC as well... Only need enough to make threads and have a good shoulder for the LDC to butt up against.
By "STX", I assume you mean the original smooth twist barrels? I hope y'all are right- I've been wanting to build something in .25 using one of those barrels for a long time...
No need to thread, you can buy silencer adapters that fit on top of your CF pipe.
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When I first preordered my Skyhawk, there were two barrels for sale thar someone made for the P-15 using both a pellet and slug liner. I passed because I just did not have the knowledge about them.
Wish I had purchased them.
Roachcreek
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If you want a good laugh. YouTube search
FX impact liner CF sleeve installation
Maybe I’m wrong, but guy says stiffen your barrel and cushion vibration all in one sentence. He bonds the liner with bathroom silicone from Home Depot right out of caulk tube.
Saw this on the FX owners Facebook group it’s always good for a laugh over there
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Ernest Rowe uses Dap bathroom sealant caulking on his CF sleeves. And he is the FX expert.
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I wouldn't be afraid to open up some 9mm ID carbon tube to fit that liner. I've had to do that with all the .22 FX liners, but with 8mm ID carbon. I took a dremel sanding drub, cut it, and put it in a large piece of music wire with a slit cut in the end. Then I chucked that up in the drill and ran it up and down the length of the carbon to open it up to fit the liner.
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Ernest Rowe uses Dap bathroom sealant caulking on his CF sleeves. And he is the FX expert.
Hes the fx expert? You mean the guy I corrected and guided as to how to obtain more power when he was seeking for such in .30 cal on the impacts?
Sure...expert on fx because hes spent countless hours repairing and disassembling them...but NOT an expert in a general sense, nor logical sense. Bathroom sealant dries very soft, and to be used in any shape or form with barrel sleeving/stiffening is counter-intuitive, and quite frankly, the idea is dumber than a box of rocks...I not only highly advise against it, but I encourage you to thoroughly chew the @@@ out of anyone who attempts it.
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If it were my project, I'd sleeve the TP section in steel, and the rest in CF. I believe (please correct me if I'm wrong) that you only need a minimum of 1 caliber depth of CF in the breech to take advantage of the stiffness- more is better of course. Personally, I'd also sleeve the muzzle end and thread it for an LDC as well... Only need enough to make threads and have a good shoulder for the LDC to butt up against.
By "STX", I assume you mean the original smooth twist barrels? I hope y'all are right- I've been wanting to build something in .25 using one of those barrels for a long time...
LOL>....I typed Supreme vs. Superior. It is an STX Superior, in .25, 600mm long Supposedly shoots up to JSB 34gr length ammo very well.
LDC adapter will likely be some form of slip on. Breech end will be sleeved with 4130.
Going to let this one marinate a bit, not quite sure what I'll end up doing. Once some 13mm OD CF becomes more readily available I'll probably pick it back up. Seems all of the usual ebay sellers are out... Why 13mm? This would be a good fit with my P15 or if I go with the B51 it wouldn't require a new barrel band.
Thanks for all of the responses
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Ernest Rowe uses Dap bathroom sealant caulking on his CF sleeves. And he is the FX expert.
Hes the fx expert? You mean the guy I corrected and guided as to how to obtain more power when he was seeking for such in .30 cal on the impacts?
Sure...expert on fx because hes spent countless hours repairing and disassembling them...but NOT an expert in a general sense, nor logical sense. Bathroom sealant dries very soft, and to be used in any shape or form with barrel sleeving/stiffening is counter-intuitive, and quite frankly, the idea is dumber than a box of rocks...I not only highly advise against it, but I encourage you to thoroughly chew the @@@ out of anyone who attempts it.
His video of installing the carbon fiber only as a means to get rid of the orings...not to stiffen the barrel. the steel barrel sleeve will take care of the stiffness.
some people do perceive his carbon sleeving video differently just because he used bathroom sealant. That stuff i used on rain gutters lasted 10 years outside and was still bonding well when i tried to remove it. the softness will aid in countering the vibration just like the orings.
To me, that was a video mainly for aesthetics only because he has them in several colors. So obviously i approved of his methods to sleeve a liner with carbon fiber inside steel barrel tubes for vibration and looks upon pulling out. maybe its also a good way to tell which color is slug liner and which color is pellet liner.
now, as to how you guided him. i like to know more details about that. My hunch is that he knows about the concept of pursuing power but was humbled to absorb all information, he's not a dummy.
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Ernest Rowe uses Dap bathroom sealant caulking on his CF sleeves. And he is the FX expert.
Hes the fx expert? You mean the guy I corrected and guided as to how to obtain more power when he was seeking for such in .30 cal on the impacts?
Sure...expert on fx because hes spent countless hours repairing and disassembling them...but NOT an expert in a general sense, nor logical sense. Bathroom sealant dries very soft, and to be used in any shape or form with barrel sleeving/stiffening is counter-intuitive, and quite frankly, the idea is dumber than a box of rocks...I not only highly advise against it, but I encourage you to thoroughly chew the @@@ out of anyone who attempts it.
His video of installing the carbon fiber only as a means to get rid of the orings...not to stiffen the barrel. the steel barrel sleeve will take care of the stiffness.
some people do perceive his carbon sleeving video differently just because he used bathroom sealant. That stuff i used on rain gutters lasted 10 years outside and was still bonding well when i tried to remove it. the softness will aid in countering the vibration just like the orings.
To me, that was a video mainly for aesthetics only because he has them in several colors. So obviously i approved of his methods to sleeve a liner with carbon fiber inside steel barrel tubes for vibration and looks upon pulling out. maybe its also a good way to tell which color is slug liner and which color is pellet liner.
now, as to how you guided him. i like to know more details about that. My hunch is that he knows about the concept of pursuing power but was humbled to absorb all information, he's not a dummy.
I didn't save the links, but the history is there over on AGN if you search for it, back when he was experimenting with dual port tps/thimbles...its not rather important though, and I have no need to fabricate such stories. Hes knowledgeable to some degree but if you're applying bathroom caulk as a means of sleeving a barrel, you're bonkers.
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I didn't save the links, but the history is there over on AGN if you search for it, back when he was experimenting with dual port tps/thimbles...its not rather important though, and I have no need to fabricate such stories. Hes knowledgeable to some degree but if you're applying bathroom caulk as a means of sleeving a barrel, you're bonkers.
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Don't see a problem with it. 3 o rings or totally suspended in a carbon fiber tube. As Duy pointed out, the barrel sleeve takes care of the stiffness. Bet it works just as well if not better than a few o-rings supporting the liner.
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His methods may not work for you or yours for his. if soft caulking works for him then it works for him. there is not a law laid down for methods to "sleeve" carbon. most people reported hood results with locktite and jb weld, but doesnt mean caulk wont work.
he may be an idiot years ago when he experimented those, he may be an expert now. knowledge change overtime.
if it were me to sleeve carbon fiber for stiffness, i would not have a loose tolerance and would use locktite, thats because i dont want to spend time exploring other options.
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https://www.amazon.com/Abester-Glossy-Carbon-Fiber-Wrapped/dp/B078LXQPR7 (https://www.amazon.com/Abester-Glossy-Carbon-Fiber-Wrapped/dp/B078LXQPR7)
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I dont know how you defend or encourage the use of bathroom caulk to sleeve barrels but I'm still going to say its absolutely bonkers and that it gives me a good giggle..why not just use a few orings at that point and call it good. If I wanna wear my shoe as a hat you have every right to think I am silly and bonkers..I didnt state its an illegal activity so not sure why law is brought into it...now lets move on from this silly discussion on the use of bathroom caulk when barrel sleeving...
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I dont know how you defend or encourage the use of bathroom caulk to sleeve barrels but I'm still going to say its absolutely bonkers and that it gives me a good giggle..why not just use a few orings at that point and call it good. If I wanna wear my shoe as a hat you have every right to think I am silly and bonkers..I didnt state its an illegal activity so not sure why law is brought into it...now lets move on from this silly discussion on the use of bathroom caulk when barrel sleeving...
I've noticed you have a lot of silly discussions that require moving on from... You get more bees with honey than vinegar my friend :)
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If the only thing you're concerned about is adhesion, why is bathroom caulk a bad idea? I can't imagine the stress you could possibly induce between a barrel and a tight sleeve are much greater than the ones created by the flexing if the bathtub when you step into it. My experience with (most) caulk has generally been that it's a weak adhesive, but doesn't seem like you need a particularly strong adhesive for the job. Of course, now that I think of it I don't really imagine the caulk in the middle of the sleeve drying anytime soon.
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Is carbon fiber anyway permeable to oxygen/air? Most caulk chemistries I know require exposure to oxygen to "set."
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(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=7351)
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Nervoustrigger- ;D ;D ;D ;D
Anyhoo, I'll be following this thread with more intent- I just got a .30 smooth twist from AoA *facepalm* Why am I like this?!
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Nervoustrigger- ;D ;D ;D ;D
Anyhoo, I'll be following this thread with more intent- I just got a .30 smooth twist from AoA *facepalm* Why am I like this?!
Dude, you have more projects going on than anybody I know,lol! Not that it is a bad thing ;) I'm sure Mike D will make it work, whichever direction he goes with the carbon bonding process!
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Nervoustrigger- ;D ;D ;D ;D
Anyhoo, I'll be following this thread with more intent- I just got a .30 smooth twist from AoA *facepalm* Why am I like this?!
Dude, you have more projects going on than anybody I know,lol! Not that it is a bad thing ;)
Well, my entire .30 Mrod bullpup was lost in the mail- totally my fault. Still really bummed about it. But then I saw these smooth twist barrels at AoA, and I've always wanted to build something using a smooth twist barrel...
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In case you had any doubt. (If you’re visiting this thread, far in the future) The guy doing the video certainly doesn’t know what he’s talking about. He may of misspoke but he contradicts himself many times in the same sentence. I think it’s agreed don’t use silicone bathroom sealant.
It’s elastomeric meaning it stays flexible the bonds are very weak. It is the total opposite of using an epoxy.
Toothpicks to center may be the best bet.
Glad Yemx is a fellow Marylander and I will be taking you up on that offer and look forward to shooting sometime.
Keep us updated.
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His video of installing the carbon fiber only as a means to get rid of the orings...not to stiffen the barrel.
He stated pretty clearly at 2:35 in his video that the purpose was to "make it stiff" and "absorb the vibrations" - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tbPSHP-L2VE
I did a very similar CF wrap with red Permatex RTV with one of my FX liners, but it didn't seem to have any noticeable benefits for harmonics over my PEEK / acetal liner bushings (wrapped with PTFE).
I have not yet gone as far as to do a bull barrel liner conversion like Knife had done a little while back, but I'm definitely thinking about it for my 700mm liners, because the harmonics in those are god awful. Before I go down that path, I want to attempt a liner "stretch" setup with ER collet chucks first.
Now recently, I have found that adding a beefy brass bushing sandwiched between my overall liner bushing assembly provided a POSITIVE improvement to my groups.
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I've used 4000 psi gap filling epoxy to sleeve the liner in my impact. 2 orings in the center and one at each end. Gets thrown on the floor of my truck and always holds poi poa.
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His video of installing the carbon fiber only as a means to get rid of the orings...not to stiffen the barrel.
I did a very similar CF wrap with red Permatex RTV with one of my FX liners, but it didn't seem to have any noticeable benefits for harmonics over my PEEK / acetal liner bushings (wrapped with PTFE).
My statement above was my opinion, i dont think it is "twice as stiff" as he claimed. maybe 10-25% more stiff not 100% more. maybe you can tell us that silicone can be used as a sealant in carbon sleeving a barrel. and if it does provide the stiffness needed. since you have used silicone sealants too.
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Pilkep, Silicone is a sealant, so is locktite and JB weld. i just laugh when you had that analogy. shoes are footwear and hats are headwear, a man can wear high heels for all that i care but to put shoes on for hats. now thats bonkers. The man chose his choice of sealant and Pipep wants to chew the @&$7 out of him and call him an idiot. Now, this is what i defended, i careless about what he choose as a sealant. i should move on too. this is a waste of time...
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Mike, sorry Sir, I forgot an important step. I used seamless steel tubing over the actual liner then the CF. I did this to give the set screws of the action block something to tighten up against rather than damaging the rather thin liner.
Sorry for missing this step. Man, Old age!!! GRRRRR!!
Folks, I've know Ernest (Not his actual name) for a lot of years. From the old TAG Days. He is far from a fool! One of the most innovative people I know. If he listened to someone as if he had now idea how to make power, I can bet money he was being his typical Modest self. That is just how he is.
Many over the years have called me well, good at what I do. I never fail to listen to both experts and newbie full of enthusiasm makers. One, it is polite. Two, every once in a while you get a nugget to build on. No man is an island!
Nothing bothers me more than the arrogant, rude attitude of some in their chosen vocation, finding it impossible to think a person may just have a good idea. Lots of those types out there! Even new members who for what ever reason come in here and let every one know that they know everything. Done everything, and in no way willing to learn anything new. Only their ideas have merit. Now that's bonkers! ;) ;D
GRRRRRR!!!
Knife
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I never expected this to be such an entertaining thread.
Lots of good info, obviously there are many ways to skin this cat. I am preferential to a tight fit that facilitates using loctite 680. I've done 4 other barrels in this manner and it works well for me.
Whether intended or not, Matt's responses can be interpreted as very arrogant. He has no problems making demeaning statements towards others and their methods- for example if you use a balance valve or a light hammer he has all but stated you are an idiot. And I use both, so I guess I am an idiot, lol.... . Matt gets a little testy when his methods are even remotely challenged---for example see his defense of using a leather striker in other threads. He is obviously a very smart guy, but his delivery and apparent superiority complex get in the way of his ability to collaborate and compromise with other people and their ideas..... I have a coworker and life-long friend who is of a very similar temperament. It is unfortunate, but it is what it is. Matt apparently doesn't lose any sleep over it, neither should the rest of us.
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Begs me to ask. I have a Bulldog upper I want to tension.
It is a Bulldog upper, barrel shortened 1 inch to remove the flat at the muzzle, barrel sticks out of the shortened shroud and is threaded 5/8-18 with a nut and does not vent into the shroud.
What would you fellows use to fill the shroud around the barrel, and how much pressure would you tighten the barrel nut on the muzzle?
Hope Mike does not feel I am stealing his thread, just felt with all the experts here would be a good time to ask before everyone goes to fist-i-cuffs. ;D
Regards,
Roachcreek
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All I can say is fortunately I don’t hold a grudge. I say my piece and then tomorrow is a new day.
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All shenanigans aside, I think the silicone sealant would be fine to use on an FX gun with an FX shroud. After all, the shroud is what actually stiffens the setup. On a non-FX gun, I agree the fitment should be tight and rigid, since there is no shroud and nut setup to tighten things up. At that point, the carbon(and or steel) sleeve is handling all the stiffness. I prefer to go with a snug fit between the liner and the carbon layers in that case.
I've found easier for me to open up the ID of the carbon until the liner fits inside, as opposed to using some sort of bushings or o-rings. I use the slow cure 2 ton epoxy when the fitment is very tight, and JB Weld when there is a little more wiggle room. I have no doubt the Loctite solutions would work just as well. I usually use enough carbon to take my barrel OD up to at least 16mm, and also use another 20mm carbon sleeve and bushings to go around that(due to the guns I'm doing it on). 20mm is the perfect tight fit going through the barrel/rail supports, and it really stiffens the whole gun up. I also make an LDC adapter to fit onto the last couple inches out of 7075 to keep the weight down. I secure that with eight 4-40 set screws and JB Weld. So far that has worked very well for me, with my limited machining skills :-[
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Begs me to ask. I have a Bulldog upper I want to tension.
It is a Bulldog upper, barrel shortened 1 inch to remove the flat at the muzzle, barrel sticks out of the shortened shroud and is threaded 5/8-18 with a nut and does not vent into the shroud.
What would you fellows use to fill the shroud around the barrel, and how much pressure would you tighten the barrel nut on the muzzle?
Hope Mike does not feel I am stealing his thread, just felt with all the experts here would be a good time to ask before everyone goes to fist-i-cuffs. ;D
Regards,
Roachcreek
IMO, the key to accuracy in the Bulldog is ensuring the shroud/rail stays 100% in sync with the barrel. Im sure there are many methods to accomplish this task. In the absence of being able to fabricate my own aluminum spacers, I use additional rear shroud adapters from Crosman and make brass shims so that they fit the 5/8 sections the barrel. The rear shroud adapter is made to much tighter tolerances, then it also has the oring groove to make it even tighter of a fit..... On my TJ barreled gun, it is sleeved up to 19mm, so I actually bored out 2 rear shroud adapters to fit. The shroud attaches to the adapters with both the top screw and I added a SHCS to each side. Amazingly, the scope holds zero after a complete teardown, I believe due to this shroud/barrel attachment method.
Some of the BD tuners create a shoulder on the barrel, just forward of the breech, and tension against that shoulder vs. against the breech. Considering what I stated above about the Bulldog barrel/shroud/rail relationship this method makes perfect sense to me.....
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Its funny Matt chose to call out Ernest here where Ernest doesn't post. (That i know of)
Why don't you post this stuff on AGN Matt? See if you can get him to explain himself to you.
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I have an extra aluminum barrel block, I replaced after I cross threaded the retaining screw, I considered using it for that until I saw it was slightly under sized at the muzzle end. Simple task to drill and tap it a size larger and shim it
Also considerably less mess that a nearly blind man trying to pour JB weld down the tube around the barrel, I mean what could go wrong?
Should I put tension on it with the barrel nut?
My Bulldog also goes to zero after tear downs and reassembly, but I remove the barrel/shroud assembly in one piece via the barrel retention screws. I have lasers on all but one airgun for the one and only purpose of re zeroing the poi after I play musical scopes or tear downs, which I do so often.
Thanks Mike,
Roachcreek
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I have an extra aluminum barrel block, I replaced after I cross threaded the retaining screw, I considered using it for that until I saw it was slightly under sized at the muzzle end. Simple task to drill and tap it a size larger and shim it
Also considerably less mess that a nearly blind man trying to pour JB weld down the tube around the barrel, I mean what could go wrong?
Should I put tension on it with the barrel nut?
My Bulldog also goes to zero after tear downs and reassembly, but I remove the barrel/shroud assembly in one piece via the barrel retention screws. I have lasers on all but one airgun for the one and only purpose of re zeroing the poi after I play musical scopes or tear downs, which I do so often.
Thanks Mike,
Roachcreek
That's a good idea with the lasers! It had not even occurred to me to use them in that way. That certainly could make life easier after a tear down to get the scope back in the ball park quickly.
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I have an extra aluminum barrel block, I replaced after I cross threaded the retaining screw, I considered using it for that until I saw it was slightly under sized at the muzzle end. Simple task to drill and tap it a size larger and shim it
Also considerably less mess that a nearly blind man trying to pour JB weld down the tube around the barrel, I mean what could go wrong?
Should I put tension on it with the barrel nut?
My Bulldog also goes to zero after tear downs and reassembly, but I remove the barrel/shroud assembly in one piece via the barrel retention screws. I have lasers on all but one airgun for the one and only purpose of re zeroing the poi after I play musical scopes or tear downs, which I do so often.
Thanks Mike,
Roachcreek
RC, I have very limited experience with tensioning. I will say I would much prefer a tensioning method that involved using belleville washers vs just tightening against the shroud. I don't have any experience to base that opinion on, but it just makes better sense to me, with regards to predictability and repeatability. I was not a fan of the WAR tensioning method, for example. I think how tight you torque it has to do more with thread pitch than anything else. Edguns are tensioned firmly against the shroud, I do not believe they have any form of belleville washer/spring, I've read they are torqued between 15 and 20ftlbs.
I would focus on making the shroud/barrel one stiff, stable unit vs. tensioning, but that is just me. This is primarily due to the way the BD is set up, with the scope mounted to the shroud vs. breech. For a breech mounted scope I can definitely get my head around the value of barrel tensioning.
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Anyway, not that anyone was really hung up on this in this thread besides me, but permeability seems to be a selling point for a relatively new kind of carbon fiber. So, regular stuff isn't going to let oxygen seep through at any appreciable rate. Your caulk in the middle of your sleeve might not ever harden, but the ends would still hold it in place without too much trouble.
Anyway, probably not the best idea.
If anyone needs permeable carbon fiber I found some for you. https://www.compositesworld.com/articles/porous-carbon-fiber-permeable-adsorptive-and-conductive (https://www.compositesworld.com/articles/porous-carbon-fiber-permeable-adsorptive-and-conductive)
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Hmmm, I figured that I would sleeve a couple of my 22 cal STX liners in an attempt to form solid units. I found some cheap uni-directional tubing that would slip comfortably over the liners, and some pricier high modulus (HM) tubing that would sleeve over it.
Only one little problem- I got my wires crossed as I placed the order (late at night), and the OD of the thin uni tubing is 0.380", whereas the ID of the thicker wall HM tubing is 0.375" 😭. I think what screwed me up was my "plan B", where I thought about sleeving the liners with the uni tubing, and then sleeving that with 3/8" stainless tubing that I have.
So now, if I chose to commit to "plan A", aka the lighter-weight double CF tubing option, I would need to bore out the HM just enough to sleeve the uni tube and some Loctite (maybe ~0.030").
I guess I'll just have to experiment with boring operations/ process with some of the HM tubing. I have spun some on my lathe before, and it was not a great experience (delamination, nasty airborne particles, etc).
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Dup (forum shenanigans)
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We Knife Makers learned long ago if working with
CF to use a very good respirator. CF is air born when worked and puts tiny shards of very sharp particles in the air.
They damage lung tissue and never leave the lungs. think floating micro fish hooks here.
Very dangerous! And sadly, or foolishly, I have gotten in a hurry several times now and flat forgot to put the mask on. GRRRRR!!! :o ::)
Knife
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Its funny Matt chose to call out Ernest here where Ernest doesn't post. (That i know of)
Why don't you post this stuff on AGN Matt? See if you can get him to explain himself to you.
I think the answer to that is rather obvious Glem. His remarks are safe here for the time being. (such antics got him banned here long ago) How he snuck back in is puzzling.
This is almost Anti Fx. Why I have no idea. But Earnest is not well known here, nor is his long and distinguished history. On AGN he is very well known and Matt's antics would, if worded the same, make him more enemies in one thread than you could imagine.
Yes, he is intelligent, but that in itself does not excuse his rudeness or arrogance.
There is one other member here that I will not have anything to do with due to his berating people he disagrees with. I find such rudeness inexcusable. I'm sure you know exactly who I am referring to Glem. ;)
Knife
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Its funny Matt chose to call out Ernest here where Ernest doesn't post. (That i know of)
Why don't you post this stuff on AGN Matt? See if you can get him to explain himself to you. (That i know of)
Fixed your post. I have posted to the likes of this on AGN...I don't understand why you continue to add fuel to a fire that is already extinguished.
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We Knife Makers learned long ago if working with
CF to use a very good respirator. CF is air born when worked and puts tiny shards of very sharp particles in the air.
They damage lung tissue and never leave the lungs. think floating micro fish hooks here.
Very dangerous! And sadly, or foolishly, I have gotten in a hurry several times now and flat forgot to put the mask on. GRRRRR!!! :o ::)
Knife
Great point. I learned my lesson when I had a fiber splinter in the back of my throat. I quite literally HATE working with it for that and other reasons. You have to treat it like fiber insulation (or good ol' asbestos). Nasty, nasty stuff!
I'm using EF-120 / Hysol to bond this time FWIW
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Hmmm, I figured that I would sleeve a couple of my 22 cal STX liners in an attempt to form solid units. I found some cheap uni-directional tubing that would slip comfortably over the liners, and some pricier high modulus (HM) tubing that would sleeve over it.
Only one little problem- I got my wires crossed as I placed the order (late at night), and the OD of the thin uni tubing is 0.380", whereas the ID of the thicker wall HM tubing is 0.375" 😭. I think what screwed me up was my "plan B", where I thought about sleeving the liners with the uni tubing, and then sleeving that with 3/8" stainless tubing that I have.
So now, if I chose to commit to "plan A", aka the lighter-weight double CF tubing option, I would need to bore out the HM just enough to sleeve the uni tube and some Loctite (maybe ~0.030").
I guess I'll just have to experiment with boring operations/ process with some of the HM tubing. I have spun some on my lathe before, and it was not a great experience (delamination, nasty airborne particles, etc).
Where did you find this .375 ID CF tubing?
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Hmmm, I figured that I would sleeve a couple of my 22 cal STX liners in an attempt to form solid units. I found some cheap uni-directional tubing that would slip comfortably over the liners, and some pricier high modulus (HM) tubing that would sleeve over it.
Only one little problem- I got my wires crossed as I placed the order (late at night), and the OD of the thin uni tubing is 0.380", whereas the ID of the thicker wall HM tubing is 0.375" 😭. I think what screwed me up was my "plan B", where I thought about sleeving the liners with the uni tubing, and then sleeving that with 3/8" stainless tubing that I have.
So now, if I chose to commit to "plan A", aka the lighter-weight double CF tubing option, I would need to bore out the HM just enough to sleeve the uni tube and some Loctite (maybe ~0.030").
I guess I'll just have to experiment with boring operations/ process with some of the HM tubing. I have spun some on my lathe before, and it was not a great experience (delamination, nasty airborne particles, etc).
Where did you find this .375 ID CF tubing?
Rockwest Composites. I meant to sdd that it fits around te .25 liners perfectly too.
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I love rockwest! price is just right too.
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Thanks for that info. Previously I relied solely upon Ebay vendors for my CF needs, nice to see additional items to choose from. The .375 x .503 is very attractive should I decide to put the .25 liner in my B51.....Thanks again.
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Thanks for that info. Previously I relied solely upon Ebay vendors for my CF needs, nice to see additional items to choose from. The .375 x .503 is very attractive should I decide to put the .25 liner in my B51.....Thanks again.
No problem! I've had some of the ebay / Amazon / Chinese made tubes, and I can say that even this thin unidirectional tube is stronger than those "3K roll wrapped" tubes (that like to delaminate if I look at them wrong).
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It's been gone over before, but which would be best for our needs- Unidirectional? High Modulus? Filamet wound? I think Unidirectional, but I'm not an engineer though.
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Humm, FX guns expert is using silicone to attach a CF tube over FX liner. Silicone does not cure inside as air is not getting through to let the silicone cure? I have done some seals from silicone and when there's a thick layer it takes days or even weeks to solidify and in this situation it's most likely staying in liquid form. For vibration dampening uncured silicone might actually do the trick but I believe most of us try to stiffen the barrel as much as possible? I'm rather confused about this thread, epoxy works - why not use it?
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It's been gone over before, but which would be best for our needs- Unidirectional? High Modulus? Filamet wound? I think Unidirectional, but I'm not an engineer though.
High modulus is probably fine. I'm layering tubes using the uni to sleeve closer to the liner, using the HM around it for sturdiness. I'd imagine these thin uni's would hold up on their own and provide adequate structural stiffness, but I'm a go all out kinda guy lol
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loc-tite 638
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loc-tite 638
This is what I've used in the past
High modulus is probably fine. I'm layering tubes using the uni to sleeve closer to the liner, using the HM around it for sturdiness. I'd imagine these thin uni's would hold up on their own and provide adequate structural stiffness, but I'm a go all out kinda guy lol
Why not a single type for the entire sleeve? Just curious. So, if I'm reading that right, you'd use unidirectional as an inner sleeve to shore up the FX barrel, then sleeve that in High Modulus?
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I typically use Loctite 680.....it is what I am familiar with and so far it has worked very well for me. But I could see using a variety of different epoxies.
the thread started out questioning what tubing others had used to sleeve .25 FX liners.
Initially there was a lot of theoretical talk, even a good bit of real world experience shared around sleeving FX liners, but in .22 vs .25....
It quickly became apparent this was not going to be a simple answer to get.
At some point the discussion around Ernest replacing the Orings in an OEM FX application w/silicon caulk came up. I am convinced this was a perfectly executed troll because Matt couldn't resist the opportunity to pump himself up and bash Ernest.
Somewhere around post 50 we started homing in on the answer.....
It only took 55 posts to get to the answer, lol... Courtesy of mtnGhost...
Rockwest Composites sells a very nice variety of CF in English units of measure, including .375 which will be almost perfect for the .25 FX STX Superior .25 liner.
Great discussion though.
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Rockwest Composites sells a very nice variety of CF in English units of measure, including .375 which will be almost perfect for the .25 FX STX Superior .25 liner.
Sorry to get the discussion off track again- anyone know off hand what the O.D. of a .30 liner is?
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Rockwest Composites sells a very nice variety of CF in English units of measure, including .375 which will be almost perfect for the .25 FX STX Superior .25 liner.
Sorry to get the discussion off track again- anyone know off hand what the O.D. of a .30 liner is?
Budget for 0.396"
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loc-tite 638
This is what I've used in the past
High modulus is probably fine. I'm layering tubes using the uni to sleeve closer to the liner, using the HM around it for sturdiness. I'd imagine these thin uni's would hold up on their own and provide adequate structural stiffness, but I'm a go all out kinda guy lol
Why not a single type for the entire sleeve? Just curious. So, if I'm reading that right, you'd use unidirectional as an inner sleeve to shore up the FX barrel, then sleeve that in High Modulus?
Nothing wrong with a single sleeve! This 64" tube is going around a 500mm .25 on its own, and a 600mm .22 with the help of a uni sleeve (they don't stock what I needed for a one-piece tune compatible with the .22 liners, but they can custom make them for a (substantial) fee.
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...Budget for 0.396"
When my barrel comes in, I'll measure it best I can. My tools aren't the best.
Ah- gotcha about the lack of available size tube. Makes sense.
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...Budget for 0.396"
When my barrel comes in, I'll measure it best I can. My tools aren't the best.
Ah- gotcha about the lack of available size tube. Makes sense.
Yeah, 0.396" is the common largest diameter on both this .30 pellet and .30 slug liner in front of me now. (Using good calipers for the measurements)
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In my experience, the uni-directional is great stiffness length wise, but it will split if pushed too hard. Putting some 3k roll wrapped weave over it will take care of any splitting concerns. High mod or other type will work great. Basically, you'll want a "weave type" of some sort on the outer tube to give it better all around strength with no worry of failure :)
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Coulda skipped all the BS at post #11 I said to use 3/8 I'd tube at the beginning
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Coulda skipped all the BS at post #11 I said to use 3/8 I'd tube at the beginning
Knowing to use 3/8 and finding it were 2 different things....I couldnt find anything but metric sizes until post 55..
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Coulda skipped all the BS at post #11 I said to use 3/8 I'd tube at the beginning
Knowing to use 3/8 and finding it were 2 different things....I couldnt find anything but metric sizes until post 55..
you havent utilized Google to its fullest. dont tell me you used yahoo search? oh man yahoo is so 1990s. ;D
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This 600mm should be cured by the morning. I homed out 0.035-0.040" in that glossy high modulus tube. The fit was snug, but I wound up adding some anaerobic RTV between that tube and the thinner standard modulus unidirectional tube that sleeves over the liner. I didn't think I was going to be able to get the darn thing together, but I muscled it by hand and got it in there. Talk about scary, forcing a thin
CF tube inside another tube with ~200lbs of downward force .. what could go wrong?!
Anyway, it seemed to work out well so I went ahead with the job using a generous layer of the Loctite E-120HP. Before I move forward with adding a gap-sealing layer between the outer CF tube and the steel FX barrel shroud, I decided to wrap it with one snug layer of PTFE tape. Still working on sketching out something to stretch the barrel on both ends with ER-16 collets, so I'd like to have access to the lier outside of the FX tube for now. Beat case scenario - I notice a positive change in harmonics and I won't have to do anything else with it (wishful thinking LOL)
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Coulda skipped all the BS at post #11 I said to use 3/8 I'd tube at the beginning
Knowing to use 3/8 and finding it were 2 different things....I couldnt find anything but metric sizes until post 55..
you havent utilized Google to its fullest. dont tell me you used yahoo search? oh man yahoo is so 1990s. ;D
I didn't use either search engine. We have a specialized forum, the sharing of specialized information is the primary intent behind its creation. .
Some times it's about the journey, not the destination.
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It’s not very difficult to slot a 1/4 steel rod with. Hack saw....chuck it up in a power drill and use the abrasive clothe to remove .02-.03” from the inside of a cf tube.
If I recall correctly, think it took 15-20 min. And that with trial and error on wrapping the abrasive cloth around the rod properly.
I used epoxy from a cf repair kit. And JB weld on the steel to steel components.
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It’s not very difficult to slot a 1/4 steel rod with. Hack saw....chuck it up in a power drill and use the abrasive clothe to remove .02-.03” from the inside of a cf tube.
If I recall correctly, think it took 15-20 min. And that with trial and error on wrapping the abrasive cloth around the rod properly.
I used epoxy from a cf repair kit. And JB weld on the steel to steel components.
I am familiar with this method, but previous attempts at using similar methods resulted in either moving the bore off center or varying ID somewhere along its length. It's not one of my go to methods due to my lack of ability to use it precisely. I'm not challenging the effectiveness of this method when used by others, but it hasn't worked well for me.
It looks like Rockwest Composites combined with the various ebay sellers should provide great selection for future projects.
In a couple of weeks I plan to pick up a stick of their .375/.503. I am getting closer to being comfortable with using this liner in my B51 project.
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It’s not very difficult to slot a 1/4 steel rod with. Hack saw....chuck it up in a power drill and use the abrasive clothe to remove .02-.03” from the inside of a cf tube.
If I recall correctly, think it took 15-20 min. And that with trial and error on wrapping the abrasive cloth around the rod properly.
I used epoxy from a cf repair kit. And JB weld on the steel to steel components.
I am familiar with this method, but previous attempts at using similar methods resulted in either moving the bore off center or varying ID somewhere along its length. It's not one of my go to methods due to my lack of ability to use it precisely. I'm not challenging the effectiveness of this method when used by others, but it hasn't worked well for me.
It looks like Rockwest Composites combined with the various ebay sellers should provide great selection for future projects.
In a couple of weeks I plan to pick up a stick of their .375/.503. I am getting closer to being comfortable with using this liner in my B51 project.
I understand your concern Mike D, and we all have to use the methods we are comfortable using for our particular projects for sure. The biggest trick with this method is only opening it up the minimum amount required, and much like using a lathe, it is hard to get it off center to a certain extent. The key is in keeping the drill spinning and the sand paper moving, while not opening up one part of the CF more than another part. That is especially true for the end sections, since that is where keeping things centered is the most important. Think of it like spray painting, you have to keep a steady movement and never let it sit in one spot more than another. I use more epoxy than I know I need, and the extra is pushed out at the end when installing the liner in the CF. What spaces may have a slight variation are filled with the epoxy. I've found harder part being the thimble end of things and the leade in. That is the part that has caused me the most trouble when I've done it. All that being said, I've been pretty happy with the last one I did. Repeated long range accuracy has been the reward when I did get it right.
I used a drill mounted to be stationary and at a constant speed, while moving the CF up and down on the rod with a dremel sanding drum that was cut and placed on the rod. I found the inherent roundness of that sanding drum gives me a more consistent result. Not that I'm saying you should do what I do. I'm just saying what did work for me at least. It is pretty awesome to be able to make 300+ yard shots on 12oz cans regularly, and 200 yards and under are very high percentage shots at this point.
Like many others have stated, there is more than one way to skin the cat for sure. I look forward to seeing some good results from the gun when you do undertake the barrel build, regardless of the methods :)
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If you're honing a CF tube out to fit a liner or another tube, it's a good idea to add an extra couple of inches to the side that you're inserting the honing rod into. That side will end up larger, so I just cut that extra length off (using a sharp cutoff blade on my lathe, which I was comfortable doing seeing how clean my test cuts were).
Make sure you clean out the (nasty) material often - otherwise you're wasting time! I went a little heavy on my bonding agent like Donny.
I rolled the tube over the bead on the liner in a constant direction, moving it forward a couple inches at a time, and then backing up an inch or so, creating a vacuum of sorts that sucked in the extra epoxy.
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It’s not very difficult to slot a 1/4 steel rod with. Hack saw....chuck it up in a power drill and use the abrasive clothe to remove .02-.03” from the inside of a cf tube.
If I recall correctly, think it took 15-20 min. And that with trial and error on wrapping the abrasive cloth around the rod properly.
I used epoxy from a cf repair kit. And JB weld on the steel to steel components.
I am familiar with this method, but previous attempts at using similar methods resulted in either moving the bore off center or varying ID somewhere along its length. It's not one of my go to methods due to my lack of ability to use it precisely. I'm not challenging the effectiveness of this method when used by others, but it hasn't worked well for me.
It looks like Rockwest Composites combined with the various ebay sellers should provide great selection for future projects.
In a couple of weeks I plan to pick up a stick of their .375/.503. I am getting closer to being comfortable with using this liner in my B51 project.
I understand your concern Mike D, and we all have to use the methods we are comfortable using for our particular projects for sure. The biggest trick with this method is only opening it up the minimum amount required, and much like using a lathe, it is hard to get it off center to a certain extent. The key is in keeping the drill spinning and the sand paper moving, while not opening up one part of the CF more than another part. That is especially true for the end sections, since that is where keeping things centered is the most important. Think of it like spray painting, you have to keep a steady movement and never let it sit in one spot more than another. I use more epoxy than I know I need, and the extra is pushed out at the end when installing the liner in the CF. What spaces may have a slight variation are filled with the epoxy. I've found harder part being the thimble end of things and the leade in. That is the part that has caused me the most trouble when I've done it. All that being said, I've been pretty happy with the last one I did. Repeated long range accuracy has been the reward when I did get it right.
I used a drill mounted to be stationary and at a constant speed, while moving the CF up and down on the rod with a dremel sanding drum that was cut and placed on the rod. I found the inherent roundness of that sanding drum gives me a more consistent result. Not that I'm saying you should do what I do. I'm just saying what did work for me at least. It is pretty awesome to be able to make 300+ yard shots on 12oz cans regularly, and 200 yards and under are very high percentage shots at this point.
Like many others have stated, there is more than one way to skin the cat for sure. I look forward to seeing some good results from the gun when you do undertake the barrel build, regardless of the methods :)
Thanks for sharing the info Donny. The transition from thimble to lead has to be pretty challenging to make. When I do mine I will be sleeving the liner end with some form of steel/brass tubing, with a traditional style transfer port through the liner. The accuracy you have achieved with your builds is very impressive to say the least.
I'm pretty confident in my TJ barreled Bulldog which I sleeved up to 19mm with CF tubing. Some day I hope to be able to stretch it out beyond my little 100 yard home range.
Here is an interesting bit of info. Today I pushed a JSB 34gr through the STX Superior liner. I was surprised to find a pretty tight choke at the last 1.5-2" of barrel towards the muzzle. Based on what I read about this barrel's performance with slugs I didn't expect to find such a significant choke.....Feels very much like an Mrod barrel, choke wise. I had to push a few pellets through just to be certain, they all felt the same. Buttery smooth until the last 1.5-2" of barrel, then it took considerable force to get it through the choke.
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loc-tite 638
This is what I've used in the past
High modulus is probably fine. I'm layering tubes using the uni to sleeve closer to the liner, using the HM around it for sturdiness. I'd imagine these thin uni's would hold up on their own and provide adequate structural stiffness, but I'm a go all out kinda guy lol
Why not a single type for the entire sleeve? Just curious. So, if I'm reading that right, you'd use unidirectional as an inner sleeve to shore up the FX barrel, then sleeve that in High Modulus?
Tom, one of the biggest reasons, if not using an FX type thimble is the cf will fail if you try to use set screws to secure it to the actioni. Worse yet, the FX and Brownells liners are far too thin to use the set screws directly on them. Hence, the need for a steel tube over the liner to receive the pressure and torque of the set screws to prevent future damage to the CF or liner.
Mike