GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Machine Shop Talk & AG Parts Machining => Wood Chop Shop (Working with wood) => Topic started by: Mossonarock on May 08, 2020, 07:31:25 PM
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I recently learned that one way to make varnish is to soak honey bee propolis and perhaps a bit of wax in ethanol. Let it all dissolve and use as desired. I have propolis because I have bees. So, into a wee 2oz jar of ethanol went some propolis. I covered the bottom of the jar with propolis. I really don't know what I'm doing. I haven't done my homework yet. The ethanol began turning a mostly translucent brown in a few minutes. The chunks of propolis are still big enough to cover the bottom of the jar. I know this preparation is generally used on violins which is where I learned it from.
I've heard some debate that varnish isn't durable enough for use on guns. I wonder if that depends on how one uses the varnish on their stock. I also wonder what kind of varnish are the speaking of. Are they speaking of varnish made from bee propolis? I am. The bees use it to caulk the wood around their hive.
I stripped the stain from the stock of a Hatsan 135 because the OEM stain was hideous. You could see brush strokes. Several areas of the stain were so thick it was actually being used to cover up saw marks on the stock. I have some sanding to do. Hideous indeed.
Assuming bee propolis varnish is satisfactory to use on gun stocks: I don't know if I could first stain wood then treat it with varnish. Will an oil based stain interfere with the adherence of the propolis? I can't imagine that it would, particularly since most oils are easily soluble in ethanol. I have no experience though. How would the varnish best be applied? How fine a grit of sandpaper ought I to sand the wood down to? I wouldn't be surprise if it turns out that sanding in between varnish applications would be necessary. Again what grit? And what about wet sanding? What is meant by wet sanding with bee propolis varnish?
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Disclaimer:I have never worked with bee propolis. Since you are making a varnish by dissolving the propolis in ethanol I ASSUME that this finish will behave much like shellac which is also made by dissolving bug goo in ethanol. That being the case it should dry quickly( maybe) respond well to sanding with 220 grit between coats,and maybe maybe make a wonderful french polish by hand rubbing it 50/50 with boiled linseed oil. Lots of assuming. Test and see.
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Mix analine dye in ethanol for a stain
Then use your bee varnish.
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Not much on youtube about this. However, there was a video of a violin luthier boiling linseed oil and pine resin together.
I think he was the same luthier who lets his propolis dissolve into ethanol for a couple months before he uses it.
His mix was something like 1 part propolis to 2 parts ethanol.
Propolis has its own color: golden brown. So, I'm not sure if I need something else for a stain.
Its going to be awhile before I'm done sanding this stock. The stock was in terrible shape underneath that thick layer of "paint" they used to cover up their lack of sanding the stock down in the first place.
For starters: I'm sanding with 120 grit just to get that top layer of rough, bleached wood off.
I figure, even if propolis doesn't make a durable coat or whatever, it ought to seep down into the wood, stain it, and fill in and adhere any micro-cracks together. It also ought to help protect the wood from the weather/humidity. That's basically what bees use it for.
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Actually, the more I'm reading about this the more it seems that a propolis varnish is really best used as a stain and wood sealer, not a top finish coat.
For a top coat, I'm thinking of using tru-oil which is linseed oil based anyway.
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I finished sanding down the stock and applied a layer of propolis. It only needed a day to cure but it took me a week to get back to it. I then rubbed it with steel wool, probably 0000 but dont' remember. Then, I rubbed it with a stiff cloth like canvas. Why this order and those two materials instead of sandpaper again? That's a good question and I'll try to answer it. Some of you with experience will be able to guess. When sanding the wood bits of wood dust get down into the capillary tubes of the wood. No amount of brushing or vacuuming gets it back out- I tried. When applying the propolis, those pits of wood dust turn black. When rubbing with the steel wool, the steel wool pulls those bits of now glued together wood dust out of the capillary tubes and leaves nice looking wood behind. The steel wool also knocks off the bits of wood fibers that stick up after applying to propolis. Even though you sanded the wood smooth, after applying the propolis it won't be smooth anymore. After rubbing with the steel wool, the wood is still kind of rough. So, rubbing it with a stiff cloth gives you the ability to push down the wood fibers that are too big and well attached for the steel wool to pull off. Its a lot like buffing the wood but what you are actually doing is pushing down wood fibers. You need to rub it hard and use the friction to warm up the wood. Propolis gets pliable when its warmed up. After rubbing/buffing with the cloth, the wood is very smooth and shines well.
I ran out of propolis but I want to add at least one more layer/treatment before I go on to the linseed oil step. For now, I'm dissolving another batch of propolis in ethanol. The propolis didn't really change the color of the wood all that much but that may have more to do with the propolis I used and the ratio of proplis:ethanol that I used.
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I tried adding a second layer with a brush and found the varnish to run all over instead of soaking in the wood like it did the first time. I figure that means the wood is already getting sealed up by the propolis. I then worked the wood with steel wool and buffed it with a cloth. Then, I decided to do a third application but this time with a cloth instead of a brush. I just dipped a small portion of the cloth in the varnish and rubbed that onto the wood till it sort of dried, doing a portion of the stock at a time. I don't think I'll need to use steel wool again. The stock still feels quite smooth. I haven't buffed it with a cloth yet. That'll be tonight.
After buffing, I'm thinking of finishing it with tru-oil. Unless anyone has any other recommendations. This is all rather experimental. So, I don't really know what I'm going aside from what I've learned from violin luthiers. However, its looking good so far.
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Do we get to see pics of this...lol. You have me curious about the process you're trying....
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Sounds like you are taking your time with your finishing job which is something that always helps. Too many people try to rush their finishing and end up with a poor finish. While I am no expert, I think you are doing the right thing by applying a top coat that is not your home made varnish. While any piece of finished wood can be scratched some finishes are less likely than others. I will be looking forward to seeing the finished stock.
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I do plan on providing after pictures. Here's the before pictures: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=173551.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=173551.0)
The cheek comb looks like it was made from an entirely different species of tree and it still does and probably always will.
Propolis varnish isn't a top coat. Even violin luthiers finish their violins with usually a linseed oil top coat after applying the propolis varnish. Sometimes, they will add some pigments to the propolis varnish so that it works more like a stain but for violins the propolis is mainly for the acoustical qualities it imparts to the wood. The propolis may not do much for protecting the wood from bumps and scrapes but it does add water resistance to the wood. After all, that's what the bees use it for!
Part of the reason this is taking me time to do is because I have to let the propolis dissolve into the alcohol after I run out and need to make more. The other reason is I have other stuff I need to do too. Also, I don't have any tru-oil yet. Because of the plague, I'm not sure when I'll be able to get some.
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I have a brand new bottle sitting here, PM me your address and it's yours :)
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Here’s a weird varnish whose properties I know nothing about. Made an ethanol extract of really fresh frankincense resin from the Middle East. Stuff like they burn in church but much fresher, right off the trees - baically big tears of fresh clean tree sap.
Painted this on a wooden box (made from a hollowed out branch cross section someone gave me). it made a nice clear hard glossy coat that has held up pretty well. Smells like a Catholic Church.
I thought it would smell good - I was bored - it was something to do. I love the smell of tree sap and resins - Doug fir, pine... love that dry evergreen forest tang. Also grew up around this guy who was a sculptor and covered everything with oils paints - in the back of this barn he had a workshop full paints and varnishes and turpentine and such... great smell.
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Mr. P- That's interesting that frankincense can be used the same way. Thanks for sharing. Basically all propolis is is tree resin and bee saliva. The qualities of the bee propolis are dependent on what trees the bees gathered their resin from. Propolis does have a very nice smell to it kind of like a mix between flowers, pine trees, and honey.
Steve, I might take you up on that offer. I was buffing the stock last night and I realize that it does not need any more propolis on it. The propolis makes the wood a bit sticky- in a good way though. You know how some people complain about a smooth gunstock being slick from not having stipling? This cures that slipperiness.
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While I was sitting here applying bee propolis to my new horizontal hive box, I realized that seeing it may be of interest to those who'd like to see what different thicknesses of propolis application would look like all on the same wood. So, I took a picture. Only the inside of the box has had propolis added. You can see how much brighter the wood is on the outside. The insides have all different thicknesses.
Inside the hive box is two frames. The one in the back with foundation is old wood and has not had fresh propolis applied in many years; ignore it. That's why it looks grey. The frame in the front is actually a divider board and has had propolis applied.
On the inner cover, which you see turned upside down and resting on the frames, the center third of the plywood has had a light application of propolis but the outer sides haven't. Also, the union between the wood frame and the plywood, and the nail holes has had propolis applied as thick as tar. As such, that's what it look like when its that thick.
On top of the inner cover is the jar of propolis. Notice how dark it is. That's as-thick-as-tar thickness. Just add the amount of ethanol you want for the job you want the propolis to do.
Finally, anyone wish to venture a guess as to what I used for the applicator? Its the u-shaped black thing on the inner-cover with the jar of propolis. I'll give you a hint: it has to do with airguns.
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And now for the much anticipated event <sarc>, I finally got enough layers of Truoil on the stock to satisfy me. The pictures don't really do the job justice. The wood sort of has a holographic effect. Some of the vertical striations you see on the stock will change between being light in color and dark in color depending on what angle you look at it. You just can't really take a picture of that phenomena. I'm sure I could have done a better job with the Truoil if I was skilled at it. This was my first time. I wasn't quite satisfied with it but its good enough for sure.
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Yes, underneath all the goop that Hatsan puts on their stock their usually is a nice "flame" or 2.
Looks great.
What do your bees usually forage on? Any sudden colony collapse?
Bee safe,
-Yogi
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And now for the much anticipated event <sarc>, I finally got enough layers of Truoil on the stock to satisfy me. The pictures don't really do the job justice. The wood sort of has a holographic effect. Some of the vertical striations you see on the stock will change between being light in color and dark in color depending on what angle you look at it. You just can't really take a picture of that phenomena. I'm sure I could have done a better job with the Truoil if I was skilled at it. This was my first time. I wasn't quite satisfied with it but its good enough for sure.
I have a Sheridan that has wood like that. On the butt stock there is a band about 3 to 4 inches wide that looks darker than the surrounding wood from one angle and lighter than the surrounding wood from an opposing angle. I wish I knew how that works. None of the other guns I've refinished have had that effect. I don't think it has anything to do with your level of expertise on applying the Tru-oil, it's just something about the wood. I really like it.
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Yes, underneath all the goop that Hatsan puts on their stock their usually is a nice "flame" or 2.
Looks great.
What do your bees usually forage on? Any sudden colony collapse?
Bee safe,
-Yogi
Well, my colony was a swarm I caught and I could tell the queen was old. After about 2 wks, there weren't any new eggs and I couldn't find the queen. The bees dwindled and, about a month later, there weren't any bees. That's one of the issues with catching swarms- the queen may be heading off to a retirement home or worse hospice. As small as the swarm was in the beginning, she may have been heading for hospice. Next year, I'm thinking of buying a split from a local beekeeper. That way I'm sure to get a young queen.
That flame effect in walnut is amazing. Its like a hologram in the wood.
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I have used tung oil to refinish stocks. I have a rifle that I finished 20 years ago still holing up.