GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Projectiles => Pellet Review Gate => Topic started by: SpiralGroove on March 01, 2020, 04:41:41 PM
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Hey Guys,
This may sound kinda crazy ... but I've never sounded like that before - Right? :D
Now that I've been shooting a .20 caliber pellet in my HW80 and HW95 platforms - I have the following Theory. The JSB 13.72 grain pellet seems to be more accurate (better stability) at velocities > 710 fps ::). This sounds foolish on the surface, but after shooting multiple guns, the pellets seems have (significantly) better command above 15 fpe. My spring guns are shooting between 720-800 fps.
Maybe the difference is also related to how fast the gun exits the barrel or harmonics (advantage seen on both short and long barrels) - IDK.
Is this a coincidence or what?
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The CHOIR already knows this ... Lol No preaching required ;D
No mystery I'm a huge .20 cal fan and been using the caliber and JSB 13.7's for field target competition now going on what i think will be season #5 in 2020.
Shot in PCP's at @ 800 fps being just > 20fpe has proven itself to be vastly superior to even .177 in the same weight class at equal speeds.
In the HW barrels I use my BC value at that speed is an astounding .040 to .044 pending elevation from sea level to @ 5500'.
Yup the Lowly .20 may not be an everyday caliber for most, but for those in the know, it's going nowhere !
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U hit it MH!! Kirk, listen! ur finding out what a lot of us already know about the .20cal, whether its the 11.42 or the 13.73gn pellet, their both excellent in the right power plant? even in a smaller power plant the 13gn pellet will give excellent accuracy, but the drop is more significant, at longer ranges, ;D
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Hey Guys,
This may sound kinda crazy ... but I've never sounded like that before - Right? :D
Now that I've been shooting a .20 caliber pellet in my HW80 and HW95 platforms - I have the following Theory. The JSB 13.72 grain pellet seems to be more accurate (better stability) at velocities > 710 fps ::). This sounds foolish on the surface, but after shooting multiple guns, the pellets seems have (significantly) better command above 15 fpe. My spring guns are shooting between 720-800 fps.
Maybe the difference is also related to how fast the Pellet exits the barrel or harmonics (advantage seen on both short and long barrels) - IDK.
Is this a coincidence or what?
Mark,
My comments are about the .20 JSB 13.72 only, I haven't found any other .20 pellet that compares.
However, when my HW95's were shooting in the 675-690 range, even the JSB 13.72's were sporadic -> hit or miss. When I re-tuned (using more powerful springs) to shoot over 700+ fps the pellets command increased very noticeably.
I'm not try to waive the .20 caliber flag as much as relaying how velocity seems to help the JSB 13.72 pellet in particular. At 675-690 fps, the JSB is still better than it's other .20 counterparts, but at greater velocities it seems to be better than anything I've tried regardless of caliber in any air gun.... That's the Theory ;).
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My external ballistic knowledge of pellets is pretty feable, but what are the chances that the twist rate in your barrel is not quite fast enough to stabilize that pellet, and the bump in velocity pushes the RPMs up just enough to get it to settle down?
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My external ballistic knowledge of pellets is pretty feable, but what are the chances that the twist rate in your barrel is not quite fast enough to stabilize that pellet, and the bump in velocity pushes the RPMs up just enough to get it to settle down?
Could be, but I don't think so... however, I don't know for sure - gut feel time ???
I bet all Weihrauch airguns are rifled with the same twist rate; the HW30S shoots great at 575-700 fps.
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Several things come to mind here for me on this, pellets from different manufactures use different lead compositions, this leeds to drag in the bore with softer lead, which effects velocity, lets say ur rifling is not perfectly smooth? and the pellet is being marred as it go's down the tube, once it leaves the barrel it becomes unstable, or ur crown is not perfect? this will definitely cause accuracy issues, Heavier pellets are generally more stable, they have a longer bearing surface to stabilize the projectile as it go's down the barrel, It will fly truer longer, pellet fit, barrel twist, all come into play, velocity is what it is, just throwing this out there, my HW35 .22cal loves the 16gn AA Fields, shoots them @605fps, where as the H&N FTT's 14.66gn run @640fps, both are very accurate from my barrel, but I have no problems shooting the 16gn pellets out to 60yds and thumping birds out of the trees around my house, the 16gn pellets are my preferred pellet for this rifle and I trust this pellet at these distances for accurate shots vs the lighter faster FTT's, I hope this makes since? ::)
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Hey Guys,
This may sound kinda crazy ... but I've never sounded like that before - Right? :D
Now that I've been shooting a .20 caliber pellet in my HW80 and HW95 platforms - I have the following Theory. The JSB 13.72 grain pellet seems to be more accurate (better stability) at velocities > 710 fps ::). This sounds foolish on the surface, but after shooting multiple guns, the pellets seems have (significantly) better command above 15 fpe. My spring guns are shooting between 720-800 fps.
Maybe the difference is also related to how fast the Pellet exits the barrel or harmonics (advantage seen on both short and long barrels) - IDK.
Is this a coincidence or what?
Mark,
My comments are about the .20 JSB 13.72 only, I haven't found any other .20 pellet that compares.
However, when my HW95's were shooting in the 675-690 range, even the JSB 13.72's were sporadic -> hit or miss. When I re-tuned (using more powerful springs) to shoot over 700+ fps the pellets command increased very noticeably.
I'm not try to waive the .20 caliber flag as much as relaying how velocity seems to help the JSB 13.72 pellet in particular. At 675-690 fps, the JSB is still better than it's other .20 counterparts, but at greater velocities it seems to be better than anything I've tried regardless of caliber in any air gun.... That's the Theory ;).
Both .20's I owned liked the FTT's better than the JSB's
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@ Kirk.- There is a lot to your "theory".
@ Scott.- The JSB 0.20's were designed for twists around 400-440 mm's, which covers the span between L-W and HW barrels. MOST after market HW barrels are NOT choked, very few are. As long as your barrel's last 3" are uniform, it should be accurate. As long as the initial pressure spike is not too harsh, the JSB 0.20" will retain its shape well, BUT BC's as high as slugs would have seem to indicate that the shape has shifted from one to the other. The question here is if you have recovered pellets using a loose Dacron filled cardboard tube. It's easy enough that if you can, the pictures would illustrate us all.
@ Jason.- What stabilizes a waisted pellet is MOSTLY aerodynamic "funneling" (NOT drag), as it is a flange-stabilized projectile and if fired from a good, consistent, and uniform barrel, even smoothbored; pellets will stabilize well under 500 fps.
Gyroscopic forces in MOST cases play AGAINST stability when using waisted pellets.
@ Mark.- Antimonium, in general, is a worse "bearing" metal than pure lead. ALL pellet manufacturers use either pure lead (down to three, or four, digits depending on the quality of the line), or at most 2% Sb (Antimonium). MOST common alloys run between 0.4% to 1%, the old Crosman Premiers being the outlier in the 2% region.
Smoothest ride is for lead on lead, but it is not sustainable at above 500 fps because above that speed lead tends to smear on steel (specially highly polished surfaces), and then there is an accumulation of "smears" one on top of the others, specially at places like the choke start.
Antimonium hardens the alloy and so, prevents deformation (up to a point). It also makes pellets more "shippable". In many ways it is a necessary evil for us airgunners. I tend to think of it as caffeine: a little goes a long way and it is useful, too much is a problem.
In general, I would agree with you that the AA/JSB Jumbo Exact 16 grn 0.22" is far superior to the H&N FTT 14.66, though the FTT's tend to be "fuller" in the head and so SOME barrels will prefer them for the same size of nominal head diameter.
@ Derek.- As you can read above, it all depends on the bore size of your barrels.
Now, If we make a bit of history, it was back in 2000-2001 that the idea for a 0.20" cal JSB first started.
We discussed a LOT the weight we would target (pun intended) because Crosman was doing stupid things with their Premiers.
It was also the time when the FT world was irremediably split and the 12 ft-lbs level was declared the one and only legal level.
Why was this important? Because no other airgunners at the time would pay $20 ($31 of today's money) for a box of pellets. And without the support of high volume FT shooters, the 0.20" cal Premier had no standing in the Exec room at Crosman to be sustainable. SO, it went the way of the Dodo bird.
In those days, most people shooting 0.20" cal. were using PCP's, yes a bunch of RX-2's had been built, but they were too much of a bear to use for long matches. So high volume shooters shooting 0.20" cal. was basically the realm of the PCP guys.
Back then you could choose between the Baracuda (13.6 grs), or the Premier (14.3 grs), the FTT was some way back in performance, specially at long range.
JSB had just come out with the Jumbo Express (14.3 grs), and so it was heavily argued that using the same pre-form would have economic advantages.
BUT, the main market was Europe, and within the more common limited power market, the "barrier" between "13" and "14" grs. pellets was deemed to big to overcome. It was also not a desire to compete head to head with Crosman in what was one of the widely prized and praised models.
So, the challenge was to design something SLIGHTLY lighter, that would be more efficient in absorbing the energy from the common powerplants, and still have the BC of the Crosman Premier.
To this effect we went through three iterations of different skirt/waist/punch/head designs to end up in what we now know.
And, yes, it was designed from the ground up to be suitable at 650 fps and up which is about 13 ft-lbs and up. Of course, it all depends on the barrel.
After MANY years, the "heavy" (15.7 grs) version is here and, at least in quality barrels (L-W), they seem to be just as accurate as the original "mid' ones.
I've been testing a DIANA 54 with them and after some fiddling, they shoot real good.
Of course, the 54 can throw the "mids" at about 23 ft-lbs and the "heavies" are limited to 20 ft-lbs. But that is still a lot of power to put into a tiny area.
While we do not think there is enough market to warrant an "Express" (light) version, there is room for a non-lead 10.5 grs, 0.20" cal. OR a 9 grs. one.
If you could vote, which one would you vote for?
We'll see . . .
IWA has been "postponed" to some indeterminate date in the future due to the COVID-19 thing, but I still have to go to Germany.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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The CHOIR already knows this ... Lol No preaching required ;D
BUMP!!
I am a fan of the H&N PELLETS. JSB just seems to have changed? But I am shooting the JSB 15's out of my PCP. BUT I am pushing them harder than 800 fps. 14.3 Old Crosman, Also shoot well out of the R1 .20 and the Baracude is its favorite pellet. 50+ yards are kills. For me 800 has always been my starting sweet spot with the 11"s anything over that had been a plus. Then you go heavier.
Bump on Mark
The .20 has been a long time debate with many opinions pro and con. No need to defind the caliber. You either like it or care not for it. As MH, IT'S GOING NOWHERE
Hector has gone in depth as well with good info. The 14.3 shot in most of my .20 spring and in the Raw .20, THAT was its favorite pellet shooting 940 fps with no accuracy issues out to 100 yards. No barrel fouling but an LW BARREL. I need say no more on the .20 caliber. It's all out there on many forums and is one of the most debated calibers.
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Okay, I'm not adding much in the way of technical info, here, but I shoot the JSB 20's in my Sheridan pumps and the accuracy I get is simply extraordinary, as in consistent sub one inch groups at 50 yards with six pumps, which would keep me under that 700 fps. No other 20 cal pellet I've tried matches it. Given that we have a nice assortment of Sheridans, we keep a good stock of the JSBs on hand.
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Hector,
In BOTH cases of my primary .20 cal FT guns ... there VERY ABRUPT and Violent in air delivery being VERY high amplitude Short dwell firing cycles.
One being a Daystate MK-3 with an added HuMa reg and larger porting. Other a RAW TM-1000 using a custom valve, very light hammer etc ... SNAP !!! is the extent of either firing being motionless except that of the pellets mass being accelerated.
Don't feel either is distorting the skirts shape simply because there ES is so tight and accuracy so consistent shot after shot. But then again ???
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So after finding out in my case with the HW80 .20 the heavy JSBs shot more accurately than the light JSBs. We're talking 3 grains? That much difference?
The situation is complicated by the addition of the HW98 which shows no difference in accuracy off hand at 25 yards (the usual for me).
The HW97K-T likes the LIGHT JSBs.
So now I have to have BOTH weights to attend to whichever rifle!
::)
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Hector,
In BOTH cases of my primary .20 cal FT guns ... there VERY ABRUPT and Violent in air delivery being VERY high amplitude Short dwell firing cycles.
One being a Daystate MK-3 with an added HuMa reg and larger porting. Other a RAW TM-1000 using a custom valve, very light hammer etc ... SNAP !!! is the extent of either firing being motionless except that of the pellets mass being accelerated.
Don't feel either is distorting the skirts shape simply because there ES is so tight and accuracy so consistent shot after shot. But then again ???
Totally agree MH. If we are pushing the pellets hard and the guns thread a needle? Shooting long ranges with still hitting intended aim point, I would have to agree. .
Thee Daystate and Raw are LW barrels.
All the AF guns are LW. All my . 20 Diana rebarrels in . 20 were the LW. We know the LW Barrel has a really tight choke. More so than many.
LOW power spring guns having to really push the. 20 might? But never seen that in my days. But anything is possible these days.
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Having bought 5 tins of Eun Jin .20 pellets for an ace 500 max that was miss marked and turned out to be 22. This combined with Air Force having .20 barrels at 1/2 price and deer season being over decided to switch my .30 to a.20. Got the barrel today and tried to insert a pellet . Jsb’s fit perfectly. The Eun Jin’s head slides in but stops when they are only half way in. The Eun Jin’s are about twice as long as the Jsbs. So my question is does a condor have a maximum length that it will accept. Hope someone knows. The barrel is not in the gun yet but it looks like it will not seat all the way in.
The idea behind this entire experiment is to have a high speed, flat shooting varmint gun.
Hope someone knows before I try to put. 10.5mm long pellet where it should not go.
Always liked .20s out of my silver streak.
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AF barrels are landed out all the way to the leade pellets seat and to my knowledge the skirt is bigger on some. Hunter supply seated in the . 25 barrel till it hit the rear ring. Forced it in and several shot but no accuaracy. Nelson fit. Heavy pellets get longer with weight increase.
Some leave the remaining hanging out and shoot. My experience is the gun can dump the tank doing this with the rear binding. That extra dimension crowds the bore causing a ressitance on the valve. Dumped a 3000 psi fill over the chrony after the 3rd shot. Free loose handed pushed me into the wall.
About popped my pants. NOT SURE this helps.
Seneaca pellets shoot fine and fit in . 25 Cal. Just nasty not good QC. Same pellet as Eunjin. 43 gr are doable but the . 35 he do not shoot good at all out of my gun.
No experience in the . 22 with them. Probably no help⁉️
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Hey Hector - Great historical information ;).
The only reason I've been experimenting with different velocities of the JSB's, was I wanted to replicate the amazing accuracy seen using the .20 caliber JSB (13.72) in my HW80 8). So... I decided to try shooting .20 caliber ammo with my lighter platform R9/R10 guns.
Unfortunately, my initial results (@675fps/690fps) they were not nearly as consistent vs. the HW80 shooting at 800 fps? For a couple of years, I'd been wondering if the results of the more powerful gun could be replicated. Even though the gun had substantial recoil, it was incredibly accurate (minimal hold sensitivity) out to 80 yards.
After increasing the spring power in both the R9 and R10 (now shooting between 720/740 fps or 15+ FPE), I notice they became much more consistent - approaching my HW80.
Because I use the "Motorhead school" of cleaning my barrels, I knew they were at their best. Hence, either an increase in pellet velocity, decrease in Dwell Time or positive influence of barrel harmonics must have made the difference.
That's why I posted -> JSB pellets seem to like more velocity than 690 fps. The icing on the cake, is the great accuracy remains stable over a wide range of 13 yards to 80 yards with differing barrel lengths.
I still very much Love the .177 caliber pellet, but the .20 is a great alternative ;D with more Thump 8).
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Kirk, I know we are talking two different platforms but I am trying to get to a similar goal. That is using the .20 at a high FPS to get a flat and accurate trajectory over a longer distance to minimize holder over and still have a good punch down range. Any ideas from your experience what would be a good weight .20 pellet and at what speed would be a good starting point. I need all the input I can get. The only limited experience I have with .20 is with a multi pump.
Fang, thanks for the info. Don’t want to poop my pants.
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Kirk, I know we are talking two different platforms but I am trying to get to a similar goal. That is using the .20 at a high FPS to get a flat and accurate trajectory over a longer distance to minimize holder over and still have a good punch down range. Any ideas from your experience what would be a good weight .20 pellet and at what speed would be a good starting point. I need all the input I can get. The only limited experience I have with .20 is with a multi pump.
Fang, thanks for the info. Don’t want to poop my pants.
James, IDK exactly :P
However, if Motörhead likes the JSB at 800 fps, try that combination: either in the 13.72 or 15.89. Hector has said they're = in accuracy 8).
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First: I have not shot the .20 too much.
Hector built me one of his special Diana 54! He recommended the JSB Exact 13.73 pellets and tuned it for them. It shoots amazingly well. Energy is about 20fte. Velocity is between 850 and 900 f/s.
Just got it out after a winter's sleep yesterday. First shot was pinwheel in the 10 ring. It required one click left adjustment to get it exactly centered. 50 shots later - none were over 1/8" from the center of the 10 ring at 17m -indoors.
Today, its little brother gets the same treatment and we see how it goes.
A few years ago, I did a test of over 80 different pellets ranging from very light to very heavy, lead vs non lead, and composite plastics in my .177 D54 that is more-or-less stock. Recorded velocity, group size, pellet weights, etc. All the metal pellets were waisted pellets. Plotting group size versus velocity showed that 800-900 f/s was optimal for accuracy. A couple outliers - one of which was a non-lead pellet but pretty consistent with others. Composite pellets were generally poor and gave off chemical smells and showed burning in the bore - patch came out black!! Kodiak Match 10.6gr pellets have dealt with over 400 chipmunks in the past 6-8 years so I do have unsatisfied victims.
I have no access to the kind of computing power and programs that I used to for data reduction but feel safe in saying that the best range for velocity to give overall best accuracy is around 850f/s.
Chipmunk season is upon me so I'll have more live target data soon. I plan to use the 20 for most of that.
Cheers!!
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The 98 encompasses the power and the accuracy, it is a medium to high power springer.
The D54 can put that into higher velocity.
The 80 can come close to the D54, as mine did compared to Hector's D54 .20, in velocity and accuracy.
I found this all out myself for offhand shooting.
My conclusion after seeing these rifles work the .20 is that the .20 in the light pellets 13.73 gr will work for all models but the heavy pellets (what a few grains more?) ARE more accurate in the HW80 and equally as accurate in the HW98 .20.
Upon seeing the HW80 .20 kill a squirrel with a body hit as the HW98 .20 did the other day on the fenceline, both squirrels were immobilized in their positions and just fell over. Never saw that happen before with any caliber except while using the Theoben .25 Eliminator.
The R7 was made in .20 and that is taking the pellet down in velocity. I never had an R7 .20 to compare with my other .20s and Hector's D54.
Perhaps the search for the pellet weight that works involves a range beyond just 13.73 and 15.
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Kirk, I know we are talking two different platforms but I am trying to get to a similar goal. That is using the .20 at a high FPS to get a flat and accurate trajectory over a longer distance to minimize holder over and still have a good punch down range. Any ideas from your experience what would be a good weight .20 pellet and at what speed would be a good starting point. I need all the input I can get. The only limited experience I have with .20 is with a multi pump.
Fang, thanks for the info. Don’t want to poop my pants.
Hey James , sorry to step in , but my experience is that for fast& flat( barrel willing) 11.42 FTT @ 780 - 800 in an R9/ 95 platform are divine... I'm rollin' a Vortek kit @ 16 ft- lbs w/ these..
Hit like a hammer... Sub MOA @ 50 yds, smooth cycle...YMMV...have fun !
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I'm actually in a High Speed Train (as in 220 mph) in Germany, and it has WiFi, LOL!
It's gonna take three hours to get to the other side of the country, with the stops.
Can you imagine travelling from Washington to Miami in a bit over 5 hours?
Ah, well, different strokes....
Back to airguns:
@ Scott.- Blown out pellets can STILL be exceedingly accurate. Remember that the last swage die in the life of a pellet is the barrel itself. The ONLY way to know is to capture some pellets and then measuring the "waist" where most of the deformation can be quantified. If you can't/won't that is OK, it was just an idea.
@ LastDog.- AF usually does not "chamber" their barrels, relying on the different diameters of head and skirt for the proper fit.
IMHE EunJins are not as accurate as JSB's, so if you want a long range varminter, build it around the JSB Heavy.
If you have one of the 24"L-W barrels you should be able to hit the 850-875 fps which is where most waisted pellets have the stability limit. MAYBE you can try up to 900 fps.
I had no problems reaching the "magical" 875 with an 18" barrel out of a Talon, so your Condor should do it nicely.
¿What to do with the EiunJins? you would have to find a Career barrel for them. Maybe a SUMATRA barrel can also yield the same results. L-W barrels are NOT designed for E-J pellets. Some of them shoot exceptionally well, but they do need some chamber work. And then you cannot use anything but E-J.
In the end, you ONLY need about 7-8 ft-lbs at impact to kill any critter up to about 35# body weight. It's a matter of precision, not energy.
Your call.
@ Kirk.- The thing about the 0.20" is that you get more penetration than with an 0.177", given the same velocity at impact. So, for slightly larger prey, they are better.
If you are not hunting, then the "Oomph" is not too relevant . . . unless you shoot at heavy spinners, or metal plates. Then the "clang" of the 0.20" is more satisfying than the "ding" of the 0.177" ;-)
@ Dave.- I am glad you are still having fun with that rifle.
@ John.- Life would be simple indeed if you only had to have 2 types of pellets. ;-)
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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All the Sheridans in my stable like the 13.73 JSB's. I only have one .20 Twanger to test different pellets with . It is the Webley VMX, [ made by Hatsan ] a few years ago. It shoots a fair bit faster than Sheridans & the heavier JSB 15.89 are the most accurate in it. If you have not tried the heavier .20's in your rifles, you may want to give them a try.
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"@ Dave.- I am glad you are still having fun with that rifle." - Hector
Hector: Yesterday, I got out the .177 and did the same routine as I did with the .20. Not quite as good but still 1/4"minute of chipmunk at 20yds. I'm thinking about asking you to tune it for me and to get a .22 D54 to tune too. That way I will complete my stable of 54s and my favorite FWB300SU.
I did find a problem with the .20 this morning. I set up on a chipmunk that was scurrying around and found that the very fine crosshairs of the Sightron scope were invisible against the tree line around my yard. I guess I will have to find a scope in my inventory that has a visible crosshair. I do have a brand-new Weaver T-16 16X A0 FIXED POWER (or whatever its designation really is) that has the same problem. I bought it heavily discounted from Sharpshooters.com (now I know why!) it has a 1/8 Moa dot that shows up on a 100yd target less than 1/2 the diameter of a .22 hole! The wires are so fine and the dot so small that I sent back to Weaver as a possible damaged scope. NOPE! ITS JUST MY AGE AND POOR VISION!!!!
My bench-rest friends use it and its brother the 60x !!! on their unlimited class rifles. I guess I will have to sell it to a MUCH younger shooter. Even my son has trouble with it.
Both the Sightron and the Weaver would be great on white background targets on bench-rest rifles but hunting - not so much!
To the point of this thread: there are a few books that talk about air gun ballistics from a science standpoint but they are out of print. I have electronic copies and will find them and put their titles and authors here.
The book was written by CARDEW - The air gun from trigger to target.
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I'm actually in a High Speed Train (as in 220 mph) in Germany, and it has WiFi, LOL!
It's gonna take three hours to get to the other side of the country, with the stops.
Can you imagine travelling from Washington to Miami in a bit over 5 hours?
Back to airguns:
@ Kirk.- The thing about the 0.20" is that you get more penetration than with an 0.177", given the same velocity at impact. So, for slightly larger prey, they are better.
If you are not hunting, then the "Oomph" is not too relevant . . . unless you shoot at heavy spinners, or metal plates. Then the "clang" of the 0.20" is more satisfying than the "ding" of the 0.177" ;-)
HM
- If we had that good of Rail service in the States, I would much rather take it than flying. Matter of fact, you're really flying done the rail :D
Is there much of a Cost advantage of High Speed Rail vs. Air tickets for consumers?
- I don't hunt anymore, but it's nice to really blast something now & then ;).
Almost .22 cal. impact with almost .177 trajectory.
I mostly, just appreciate the command you retain over the pellet at 80+ yards vs. .177 caliber.
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"@ Dave.- I am glad you are still having fun with that rifle." - Hector
...
I did find a problem with the .20 this morning. I set up on a chipmunk that was scurrying around and found that the very fine crosshairs of the Sightron scope were invisible against the tree line around my yard. I guess I will have to find a scope in my inventory that has a visible crosshair.
...
Both the Sightron and the Weaver would be great on white background targets on bench-rest rifles but hunting - not so much!
To the point of this thread: there are a few books that talk about air gun ballistics from a science standpoint but they are out of print. I have electronic copies and will find them and put their titles and authors here.
The book was written by CARDEW - The air gun from trigger to target.
You had me worried there! LOL! It's not the gun that is giving you problems. Phewwww!
;-)
IMHO, the 0.20" cal pellet is the "7 mm's" of the airgun world. Yes there are bigger, heavier ones, and there are smaller, faster ones, but for all intents and purposes, it is a "good medium".
Fur or feathers, long range, or short, light loads or heavy hitters, the cal. itself is very versatile, yes there are few pellets to choose from, but those that do exist, are very good and you only need ONE good pellet anyway.
The other reason I like it a lot is that, in most spring-piston airguns, the Crow Mags and the Predators, as well as the new H&N offerings, can be driven to the required expansion impact speed. That is not so easy with the 0.22", and in the 0.177" the expansion is there but you go from 0.177" to 0.22" hole, whereas the 0.20" flies like a 0.177" and makes a 0.25" cal hole.
With PCP's and higher pressures, I am sure we will see the same ballistics out of a 0.22" than what we can get from a 0.20" at spring-piston speeds.
Pistons will also advance somewhat still. There is credible evidence that efficiency can still be improved in the last 2 mm's of travel in the forwards stroke. But that's work for the future.
Coming back to the scope: If you could find a FFP Bushnell Nitro, you would probably solve your problem. As, in these scopes, the reticle size GROWS (and so does the thickness) as the magnification grows.
The other thing you could look into (literally) is an illuminated reticle. That one will not "blend" into the background. There are a few economy scopes in which you can try the concept and then, if you find it works for you, then you can look into getting better glass.
When I get home, I'll send you a cheap scope so that you can try both concepts and decide which path to follow.
We're working with SIGHTRON on a series of reticles for different purposes on FFP scopes; and the findings, though really simple to understand and clear to see once you have come up with the idea, have not been implemented by anyone so far.
Again, more work for the future.
Thanks for the feedback, keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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- If we had that good of Rail service in the States, I would much rather take it than flying. Matter of fact, you're really flying done the rail :D
Is there much of a Cost advantage of High Speed Rail vs. Air tickets for consumers?
- I don't hunt anymore, but it's nice to really blast something now & then ;).
Almost .22 cal. impact with almost .177 trajectory.
I mostly, just appreciate the command you retain over the pellet at 80+ yards vs. .177 caliber.
Here Rail tickets for first class cost the same as a coach plane ticket. So, it's not that you are saving money, but you are travelling "better". More room, working faciliities, restaurant car, etc.
AND, the train takes you to the CITY CENTER straight away, no 1 hour prior arrival, no lengthy boarding process. End to end, it is shorter than flying.
Yes, "thumping" stuff is fun, LOL!
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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Both .20's I owned liked the FTT's better than the JSB's
Same here. I do not have the numbers with me but IIRC my R10 chrono speeds were in the low to mid 700's and it prefers the H&N FTT in 11.42g over either of the JSB offerings.
My CO2 .20 shoots everything about the same.
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I'm actually in a High Speed Train (as in 220 mph) in Germany, and it has WiFi, LOL!
It's gonna take three hours to get to the other side of the country, with the stops.
Can you imagine travelling from Washington to Miami in a bit over 5 hours?
Ah, well, different strokes....
Back to airguns:
@ Scott.- Blown out pellets can STILL be exceedingly accurate. Remember that the last swage die in the life of a pellet is the barrel itself. The ONLY way to know is to capture some pellets and then measuring the "waist" where most of the deformation can be quantified. If you can't/won't that is OK, it was just an idea.
HM
Hector,
Have no problem in doing this, just need to get the materials to make a long enough trap to stop a pellet w/o damage. I'll work on that and report back findings with photo's.
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Scott
Here is what I am doing for a pellet trap, that leaves NO marks or deforms in the pellet,
unless you hit the sides and slide a pellet towards the back end....... ::)
4" diameter PVC pipe, threaded cap glued to one end, fill the inside with those cheap WM shopping bags,
medium packed, shoot a couple rounds, unscrew the rear end, (removed the 1/8" steel plate, for safety,
just in case a pellet makes it to the end, I shoot in the shop and don't need a Aw S(^# problems or holes in the walls.) ;)
Take a 6' length of PVC pipe, and start pushing the bags out the front end,
looking for a long tit with the pellet caught in the end etc.
Remove the pellets, re stuff the bags back inside in any which way, and then keeping shooting and repeating as needed.
I am running a 14 gr @ 900-950 fps and the pellets are about halfway down the pipe. ;)
and keep the muzzle at least a foot from the shooting end, or you'll blow bags back out.....LOL
HTH's,
Tia,
Don
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Here is what I am doing for a pellet trap, that leaves NO marks or deforms in the pellet,
unless you hit the sides and slide a pellet towards the back end....... ::)
4" diameter PVC pipe, threaded cap glued to one end, fill the inside with those cheap WM shopping bags,
medium packed, shoot a couple rounds, unscrew the rear end, (removed the 1/8" steel plate, for safety,
just in case a pellet makes it to the end, I shoot in the shop and don't need a Aw S(^# problems or holes in the walls.) ;)
Take a 6' length of PVC pipe, and start pushing the bags out the front end,
looking for a long tit with the pellet caught in the end etc.
Remove the pellets, re stuff the bags back inside in any which way, and then keeping shooting and repeating as needed.
I am running a 14 gr @ 900-950 fps and the pellets are about halfway down the pipe. ;)
and keep the muzzle at least a foot from the shooting end, or you'll blow bags back out.....LOL
HTH's,
Tia,
Don
Don,
thanks, I had just been wondering about how to catch a pellet without further deformation — after hitting a volunteer pigeon or other critter, whatever the hunt produced.
Your pellet catcher will help me figure out if my hollow points actually expand or not.
THANKS!
Matthias
PS: The excellent description of your Pellet Catcher deserves a separate post, so people can find it easier. 😊
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Matthias;
My preferred method is to capture the pellets in Dacron/Pillow fill, VERY loosely packed into a cardboard tube.
Using a 4" tube makes it possible to shoot and capture pellets at short and long range. Unimportant for a single experiment, but important when you want to establish how much the sudden deceleration of the pellet upon catching will deform the pellet.
To gather the data for this post entry:
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/at-the-moment-of-firing-and-fit-of-pellet-to-the-rifling (https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/at-the-moment-of-firing-and-fit-of-pellet-to-the-rifling)
I tested the method at 20 and 50 yards, and found that using Dacron pillow fill produced identical results, therefore if impact speeds as different as 800 fps and 580 fps produced no difference, then my conclusion was that the method was good and no further deformation due to the catching was being inflicted on the pellets.
Pellet catching is an eye opener in many guns, specially PCP's that are assumed to be "softer"shooting than spring-piston airguns.
HTH
HM
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Hector
Do you have a post on where you described your pellet catcher details etc? ;)
Tia,
Don
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Hector
Do you have a post on where you described your pellet catcher details etc? ;)
Tia,
Don
Don;
I have described the process several times in different fora, even the British STB one because there was strong contention that ANY form of catching pellets deformed them.
It's so easy, it does not really merit a blog entry:
1.- Get a 4" cardboard tube:
https://smile.amazon.com/Premium-Kraft-Cardboard-Mailing-Tubes/dp/B010GIXEZ8/ (https://smile.amazon.com/Premium-Kraft-Cardboard-Mailing-Tubes/dp/B010GIXEZ8/)
You can also scrounge it from the tubes that metal and plastic suppliers use to ship materials. I usually receive several when I buy long tubes, rods, or DOM tubing.
2.- Buy some Pillow Dacron Filling:
https://www.michaels.com/the-original-poly-fil-premium-fiber-fill-bag-12oz/10509850.html (https://www.michaels.com/the-original-poly-fil-premium-fiber-fill-bag-12oz/10509850.html)
Get a long strip of the Dacron material from the "pillow", usually it comes in a sort of "roll", so you cut a long strip about 8" wide and as long as the cardboard tube you have. IMHE 24" is more than enough to catch pellets at up to 24 ft-lbs.
Use a long wooden dowel to "push" the Dacron into the tube (dowel goes to the FRONT of the Dacron, and therefore it is pulling, though you are pushing).
The Dacron should "fluff up" to fill the tube without any pressure in any sense.
Now, test with a pellet shooting at an open end of the tube from 20 yards (you should be able to hit specific spots, if not, then tape some paper over the end you will be shooting and draw 6 or 8 aiming dots).
If the Dacron catches the pellet correctly, then you can shoot the other spots.
It is OFTEN the case, that you can only shoot ONE pellet and then need to fish for it.
Get the whole roll out and you will see the pellet encased in a ball of Dacron (how that happens is very interesting in itself, but it is a different story). Unravel it and you have captured your pellet.
Re-install the Dacron and repeat.
As you get better, you can use smaller and smaller tubes and then have a bunch of "catcher tubes" that you can label as to the test you are performing, shoot them all and then recover them all. Much more time efficient.
To test if you are packing the Dacron loosely enough, shoot exactly the same setup at 20 yards and at 50 yards, if the pellets show substantially the same deformations, then you are doing it correctly.
As you can see, it is a VERY simple process, just tedious if you need to test a bunch of pellets in different rifles/powerplants.
If you find any difficulty, drop me a line, or post somewhere; telling me where, LOL!
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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Héctor,
muchas gracias! 😊
Great description. I'll try this soon for some post-pigeon hollow points....! 😄
Matthias
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Hector
Thank you for that info,
I give it a try along with my plastic bag pellet catcher, and compare the differences.
Thanks,
Don
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I give it a try along with my plastic bag pellet catcher, and compare the differences.
Don,
would you please report on your findings?!
I'm interested in the results, too! 😊
THANKS!
Matthias
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Matthias
Will do, as soon as I find the proper materials etc.
Thanks,
Don
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I'm actually in a High Speed Train (as in 220 mph) in Germany, and it has WiFi, LOL!
It's gonna take three hours to get to the other side of the country, with the stops.
Can you imagine travelling from Washington to Miami in a bit over 5 hours?
Ah, well, different strokes....
Back to airguns:
@ Scott.- Blown out pellets can STILL be exceedingly accurate. Remember that the last swage die in the life of a pellet is the barrel itself. The ONLY way to know is to capture some pellets and then measuring the "waist" where most of the deformation can be quantified. If you can't/won't that is OK, it was just an idea.
HM
Hector,
Have no problem in doing this, just need to get the materials to make a long enough trap to stop a pellet w/o damage. I'll work on that and report back findings with photo's.
Scott, I've shot into multiple gallon Ziploc bags (longways) filled with water. IIRC it only took 2 bags to stop pellets up to 12fpe. I've done this on several occasions to examine pellets after being shot. This is how I found out how badly my HW57 was deforming pellets. You can get about 10 shots off before the bags leak out enough to be useless.
I've also shot into a spa. The pellet stopped long before the bottom. Which is too bad because I wanted to get rid of it at the time and was looking for an excuse :o Thankfully, the pump eventually died and my spa maintenance days ended ;D
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Scott, I've shot into multiple gallon Ziploc bags (longways) filled with water. IIRC it only took 2 bags to stop pellets up to 12fpe. I've done this on several occasions to examine pellets after being shot. This is how I found out how badly my HW57 was deforming pellets. You can get about 10 shots off before the bags leak out enough to be useless.
I've also shot into a spa. The pellet stopped long before the bottom. Which is too bad because I wanted to get rid of it at the time and was looking for an excuse :o Thankfully, the pump eventually died and my spa maintenance days ended ;D
Zack;
Problem with using water is that at the speeds pellets fly, it is too "stiff" and you fall into the uncertainty trap (you are altering the phenomenon you are trying to measure by the measurement method itself).
While this is most evident in HP/Expanding pellets, it is also true for other styles.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM