GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: rumbleUU on February 19, 2020, 08:26:29 AM
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For example: if a pcp shoots 10 joules with a 12 inch barrel, same everything except length of the barrel.
Is there a rule between the speed vs the length of the barrel?
Will a 24" barrel shoot the same pellet with twice the energy(20 joules)?
Im not after a perfect mathematic formula,, as I know its more complicated, just a general rule if there is one.
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I think most of those formulas were based on pumpers and dump valves. Back a good number of years ago, I swapped out the 12" prod barrel with a 20" mrod barrel, without touching the tune. Only increased 1fpe.
I think the more inefficient your current tune is, the more you will gain with a longer barrel. ;)
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been reading some and it seems it varies great, in some cases it will slow down the pellet with longer barrel, depending on transferport, hammerweight and hammerspring/tension.... it probably more complicated to just use a rule of thumb..
I think its easier to predict if you are aiming for max power on a good tune... maybee then a twice length will almost give twice the energy?
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Here is a good place to start.
https://hardairmagazine.com/ham-columns/how-to-obtain-the-maximum-power-from-a-pcp-air-rifle/
Some other articles there too that may help.
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sadly while there is a general rule of thumb for FPS per inch +/- ............. In PCP's where you have control of a valves dwell, port sizes etc, A gun can be set up for a specific power by limiting valves output pressure & volume where adding more barrel won't do squat. Same thing at the other end of spectrum where if a gun is set up and just is a heavy breather the power will go up with increases in barrel length.
Then you have the set up where pressure is lower if ports are large and a light hammer is used the gun can shoot fairly high velocity out of a short barrel .. where a set up with smaller ports would require more pressure and a longer barrel to equal the same speed.
MANY ways to skin the cat .. catch the mouse ! There is a trend that larger bore and higher power does require more barrel length ... but a whole lot of flexibility also exists all the way down to the smaller calibers.
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yeah, its a whole world knowing all, Ive stumbled across the FX Dreamline compact, cant figure out form the specs? but it seems that one is capable of 850 fps in .22, Im sure that barrel cant be more then 13-14 inch?
how it that possible, must be wasting air bigtime
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For example: if a pcp shoots 10 joules with a 12 inch barrel, same everything except length of the barrel.
Is there a rule between the speed vs the length of the barrel?
Will a 24" barrel shoot the same pellet with twice the energy(20 joules)?
Im not after a perfect mathematic formula,, as I know its more complicated, just a general rule if there is one.
If you have a very heavy pellet, and flow through the smallest constriction stays subsonic, you will get an almost proportional FPE increase. The % velocity increase will be equal to the square root of long_barrel_length/short_barrel_length.
That assumes a large enough plenum and that you can increase the hammer strike so you get sufficient dwell in the valve.
In your example, the 10 joules at 12" would give 20 joules at 24". Velocity in the long barrel would be 1.41x the old velocity. sqrt(24/12)
However:
We are usually only concerned with pellet FPE and not the total system FPE. Some of the FPE goes into accelerating the air as well as the pellet. For a lighter pellet, the mass of the air is significant, so the air "steals" a significant portion of the FPE. So the velocity increase will never be as much as you might first think, and that is especially true for low mass pellets.
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Generally speaking mid to high power guns will see more of an increase in power with a longer barrel. Really low power guns don't benefit as much from extra barrel length. As Scott said, that doesn't mean power and flexibility can't be had with a shorter barrel. Also, a gun shooting 30 fpe out of a 14" barrel likely won't be as efficient as a 30fpe gun with a 20" barrel. This is all very general, of course. There are valves/tuning methods that can get great efficiency out of a short barrel, but that will drop once the power starts getting higher in most cases.
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yeah, its a whole world knowing all, Ive stumbled across the FX Dreamline compact, cant figure out form the specs? but it seems that one is capable of 850 fps in .22, Im sure that barrel cant be more then 13-14 inch?
how it that possible, must be wasting air bigtime
I have a crown with a 380mm (15" barrel) it shoots 18gr .22 pellets st 930fps. Is also fairly quiet as well. Not much wasted airto be honest.
I can take my 700mm (27" barrel) and using the same tune, only pick up 110fps. I have multiple tunes and various adjusters and weights. But that tune is optimized for the 15" barrel.
I also just finished a 7.6" barreled crosman 1322. I was worried I would struggle to meet my goal of 6-650 fps with 18gr pellets, but it shoots them at 785fps!! I can get it to shoot slightly faster, but it is an inefficient tune currently.
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For maximum power shots, FPE is proportional to barrel length.... Therefore a 10% increase in length gives about a 10% increase in FPE (note, NOT velocity, as that varies by the square root of FPE)…. This means that a 1" change on a 10" barrel will have twice the relative effect of a 1" change on a 20" barrel.... Put simply, shorter barrels gain more (and lose more) velocity per inch of length change....
Most of our guns, however, are not tuned for maximum power, and the valve closes long before the pellet gets to the muzzle.... This means that the FPE is no longer completely bound by the percentage proportional rule of thumb.... Longer barrels will not gain FPE in proportion to barrel length, and in fact if you go REALLY long, pellet friction can exceed any remaining force from air expansion, and the pellet may slow down again....
Bob
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10-12 fps per inch is what I find on AVERAGE but in no way a rule. The tune it has before the change is critical unless like Bob stated were working with max output then its somewhat linear.
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Well not linear, but with maximum power builds the FPE is proportional to the barrel length.... The velocity graphed against barrel length is a parabola....
Bob
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Sebastian,
After the valve closes, every time you double the distance the pellet travels down the barrel, the force accelerating the pellet is halved. So, inches near the muzzle add much less FPE, than inches near the breech:
If you pick a few "easy numbers" the pressure decay down the barrel become more apparent for low power tunes:
For a .177 caliber yielding 12 FPE from a 12" barrel, it means that the average force accelerating the pellet is 12 lb. It is slightly more due to friction, but lets keep it simple.
If your valve is sipping from a 3000 PSI supply, the initial force accelerating the .177 pellet is 75 lb. If that force starts at 75 lb and averages only 12 lb, then the valve is open for a very short time. The force when the pellet exits will be less than 12 lb. The decay curve can be calculated. In any event, if the driving force at the muzzle of the first foot length is 6 lb, that is the peak force for the second foot length (after you double the barrel to 24"). It is easy then to see how the second 12" length will add much less FPE than the first.
If you repeat this exercise for a "wasteful tune" for a 12" barrel length, then the second 12" can extract the energy that would otherwise have been wasted.
If a 12" barrel .177 yields 30 FPE, then the average force acting on the pellet is 30 lb; or 1200 PSI. As that would be over a third of the starting pressure, the decays curve would be "fat" with very usable pressure at the muzzle of the 12" barrel. Stretch that barrel to 24", and the "muzzle pressure" of the first 12" becomes the "breech pressure" of the second "12". Not as high as the first foot, but high enough to gain significant FPE from the second foot.
So, the answer to your question is; it all depends on the details. The potential energy available for transfer to the pellet is proportional to both the pressure and the volume of the air released by the valve. Then it is a matter of the expansion ratio that determines the efficiency (how much of that energy is transferred to the pellet): A 30 ft.lb .22 will be more efficient than a 30 ft.lb .177, if both are hamstrung with a barrel as short as 12". Lower the FPE to only 10 ft.lb and double the barrel length to 24" for both, and the smaller caliber may have the edge in efficiency due to its lower pellet to barrel friction.
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Just to add; incremental velocity added per inch depends on the average pressure applied over that inch. The rate of change in pressure is higher near the breech than the muzzle, but the average pressure applied over each inch of travel, is much higher near the breech than the muzzle; unless the barrel is really short and the valve stays open unusually long.
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interesting stuff guys..... ;), I knew it would be more to it then just simple EASY !
@ Long_Gun_Dallas: How efficient is your FX compact ? Sure it shoots the 18 grains @930fps, but how many CC/shoot?
I know it all depends on many thing, but lets take an example: Would a PP700 pistol gain from a longer barrel?
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interesting stuff guys..... ;), I knew it would be more to it then just simple EASY !
@ Long_Gun_Dallas: How efficient is your FX compact ? Sure it shoots the 18 grains @930fps, but how many CC/shoot?
I know it all depends on many thing, but lets take an example: Would a PP700 pistol gain from a longer barrel?
The shot count is too high for me to care to count, I can say that. Based off how much air it uses, I'd say I should be able to get 5 magazines before fallig off the reg so, 90 shots in a 480cc tank. Could be higher or lower. Either way, far more than I need while hubting. The gun is quiet, and precise. I actually detuned the gun a bit, and it was tuned very well from the factory.
Also, I typically shoot at 670fps. Shot count is thru the roof. Hunting, it gets turned up.
As for a pp700, there would be some gain, but due to reduced plenum volume, I doubt you could squeeze a whole lot more out of it. Try it and find out 🙂
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HAven't run many good tests.
Rather than different barrels, seems the best way to test would be with the same barrel (minimalizing barrel-to-barrel variables). So would have to start with a long one and cut it down in steps.
(Which kind of not worthy as you'd nearly always want to go back to a longer barrel.)
Not really wanting to do that with an expensive barrel just to see.....used cheap barrels (Crosmans).
BEst simple relationship was to the percentage of barrel length change to the velocity change.
So no set vel. gain per inch. A 4" change in a 14" barrel is worth more than a 4" change in a 24" barrel.
Never worked out linear....at best, would be more like a correlation than hard numbers.
Did show that inefficient (air hogs) gained or lost more than efficient rifles (even at the same power level)....makes sense to me, that "extra air" with a short barrel actually does help in a long barrel.
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Would a PP700 pistol gain from a longer barrel?
If a PP700 is tuned to shoot at 8 FPE from a 8.25" barrel, doubling the barrel length might add 10% FPE - probably less. If it is tuned to shoot at 20 FPE, then doubling the barrel length would almost certainly increase the velocity and FPE significantly.
If it is a .22, then the less it will gain from a low power tune when you increase barrel length, because the larger bore already has a 150% larger expansion ratio than a .177. The converse is that a .22 will gain 150% more FPE from a longer barrel than a .177 when using a full power tune. Note that when you double FPE of a given projectile, you only increased the velocity by the square root of 2; as in 1.414, or 41.4% higher.
Looking at this another way, if you increased the PP700 barrel length from the stock 210 mm, then it would enable you to tune the pistol to proportionately higher FPE, without spoiling the efficiency.
Another way of stating this is, pistols of a given caliber are more wasteful of air than rifles when operating at the same FPE. This is because their muzzle pressure is higher when the pellet exits. If the muzzle pressure corresponds to perhaps twice the value of the friction force at the muzzle, then a longer barrel would gain measurably more velocity.
Someone on this forum determined experimentally that this practical muzzle pressure threshold was about 100 PSI for pellets, regardless of caliber. For slugs, the lowest practical muzzle pressure is probably higher in proportion to their running friction, caused by the longer bore contact length. Drop below that, and the projectile starts slowing down. If the barrel is unchoked, it will gain more from a few extra inches than if it is choked. This is even more so with slugs, as it would take more energy to swage down a slug diameter by 0.002" than a diabolo pellet.
So, keep increasing the barrel length until the muzzle pressure is about 100 PSI (for pellets). If a 24" barrel corresponds with a muzzle pressure of 200 PSI, then to get to 100 PSI, the barrel length would need to double to 48" long. Expanding the air until it is below 100 PSI, the gains are mostly theoretical, and the barrel becomes as impractical as Pinocchio's nose.
Remember that a long skinny barrel is a lot more flexible than a short stiff one. Eventually barrel flex will make a given airgun pellet and tune fussy, and generally inaccurate. What is the point of missing the bullseye (or rat's brain) with 50% more FPE, when a good hit at less power will get the job done more effectively?
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Would a PP700 pistol gain from a longer barrel?
If a PP700 is tuned to shoot at 8 FPE from a 8.25" barrel, doubling the barrel length might add 10% FPE - probably less. If it is tuned to shoot at 20 FPE, then doubling the barrel length would almost certainly increase the velocity and FPE significantly.
Very interesting!
Now — I have the reverse question — seriously. I'm considering shortening the barrel and the airtube of a PP700. 😊
Caliber .22, but could modify to .177, whatever is better.
Shortening of barrel by 1 to 3 inches.
Desired power level = 8FPE
Any suggestions, any guess-timation of power with a shortened barrel? 🤔
Matthias
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Would a PP700 pistol gain from a longer barrel?
If a PP700 is tuned to shoot at 8 FPE from a 8.25" barrel, doubling the barrel length might add 10% FPE - probably less. If it is tuned to shoot at 20 FPE, then doubling the barrel length would almost certainly increase the velocity and FPE significantly.
Very interesting!
Now — I have the reverse question — seriously. I'm considering shortening the barrel and the airtube of a PP700. 😊
Caliber .22, but could modify to .177, whatever is better.
Shortening of barrel by 1 to 3 inches.
Desired power level = 8FPE
Any suggestions, any guess-timation of power with a shortened barrel? 🤔
Matthias
You can't be serious ???
Try it and let US know ...
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it can be done easily , but you need to bypass the regulator , and you will likely only get 5 shots per fill
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Another member has done that. (shorten the pp700) Vetmx I believe?
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Matthias,
I can see adding a stock to the PP700 to improve its handling. Have never had one in hand, but think it would be muzzle heavy, if fired offhand, or unsupported without the stock. So, I think the reason to cut it shorter would be to improve its balance. If you have a scope on it, then the weight reduction can't be significant, just the center of gravity shift. Also, scoped you are not carrying it in a holster.
Perhaps total length with a moderator on is your goal? Anyway, technically speaking:
A 5.5" barrel in .22 has slightly more expansion volume than an 8.25" long .177. So, if an 8 FPE tune in the stock 8.25" barrel .177 PP700 is reasonable (rated at 9 FPE out of the box), then a .22 with a 5.5" long barrel is just as reasonable. That is, assuming you don't mind the loopy trajectory. Assuming a 14 grain pellet, that works out to just over 500 FPS. Fine for short range targets and vermin.
Shortening the air tube will cause a proportionate reduction in shot count, even with the standard barrel. The air tube is a large diameter, so the loss of volume is significant (but proportionate). Reducing the barrel length will also reduce shot count, if you boost the hammer strike to restore (and especially,exceed) 9 FPE.
I 2" length reduction will change (improve?) the feel of the pistol. A 1" reduction seems like a lot of work for no reason. More than a 2.75" reduction will start to cause the .22 version to become less efficient than a stock .177. This is because the stock .22 should have the potential to be 50% more powerful, or 50% more efficient than the stock .177. Cutting the .22 shorter (within reason) would just make the expansion ratios equal between calibers. This making their FPE per CC of air used the same.
If you are able to do the work without destroying your PP700, and can live with the reduced shot count, go for it. Playing the role of heckler heckler here :).
How long is the air tube? Are there components inside that take up volume? If not, then a 20% length reduction should equate to a 20% useful shot count reduction.
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Long_Gun_Dallas,
Thanks for the pic of Frank's shortened PP700! 😊
subscriber,
Thanks for the encouragement! 😊
This is a project I have been thinking of for a while now, and it's a bit out of reach yet, as it'll require funds..... 😄
I'm looking for a smaller pesting pistol that can actually be carried in a pocket or holster instead of a plano case...! 😄
And once the moderator is on it's so long I might as well shoot a compact bullpup rather than a li'l pistol....
It would be for very short range pesting, with a laser sight.
What I take away in length of barrel and airtube, I'd like to add in volume to the moderator — a 1.5" or 2" tube, asymetrical — yeah, a man is entitled to dream, right?! 😄
Anyhow, too bad that Artemis did such a whimpy job on the shroud, it looks good, but is basically not functional....
All this modding is really new to me and I still need to find some kind of machine shop here in Lima that can modify and make me parts.....
FUN!! 👍🏼😊
Matthias
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Matthias,
With some work, you might be able to hollow out the shroud and add an air stripper that blows back into the shroud.
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Based on the Krale link and image below, it looks like the PP700 already has an air stripper, so perhaps just the shroud volume could be opened up by some clever machining?
Perhaps you could core out the shroud from the sides, as shown in one of my crude attached images? Then add curved hollow covers to increase shroud volume?
You may be better off making a new shroud without conflicting features...
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=169294.0;attach=304176;image)
https://www.krale.shop/en/silencer-adaptor-artemis-pp700s-a/ (https://www.krale.shop/en/silencer-adaptor-artemis-pp700s-a/)
(https://www.krale.shop/media/catalog/product/cache/11/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/g/e/geluiddemper-adapter-artemis-pp700.jpg)
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Thought I'd share this as well. I chopped down a spare fx liner I had to get some FPS figures off my Crown in 22. Ran 16gr pellets thru at highest hammer and port setting and the lowest on a tune intended for the same pellets and a 15" barrel.
The gun I got the data for which I think I mentioned earlier is shooting 16gr at a max speed of 820fps thru a 7.6" barrel. There is no regulator, though, not yet anyhow. I'm not sure if I will add one. The plenum is essentially 160cc (the whole air tube)
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Thanks Dallas,
It seem your "low" setting is pertinent to the OP's 8 FPE goal. It reinforces my opinion that cutting 2.75" off the stock 8.25" barrel will not be a problem, at that power level. Your results suggest more can be cut off, but perhaps not, if the same efficiency as an 8.25" long .177 barrel needs to be maintained.
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Well, the .177 is a bit harder to squeeze power from. The low tune on the crown is very close to the max output of my 14.5" hot rodded pump 1322. Being a 15" barrel, I figured it would give me data that would be somewhat relatable... I just didn't know the valve setup I would get would flow so much.
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This is exciting! 😄
Thanks for sharing!
Interesting design idea for the shroud, subscriber. Thank you for taking the time to draw and post.
I had been thinking about simply taking the OEM shroud off, and replacing it with a huge pipe, diameter 1.5" or 2.0".
Then making asymmetric baffles (3D-printed) (asymmetric because the airtube would interfere with such a big shroud).
I have no problem with a pistol being bulky, even bulgy — but long is just too complicated for carrying. 😄
Matthias
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Hi Matthias,
I like your idea even better. A bit like the EDgun Leshiy; except a repeater, with an under barrel air tank:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_PlhbzEx2Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_PlhbzEx2Q)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17Yiv-1K_sI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17Yiv-1K_sI)
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Yupp, that's the gun I saw this on!
And when I thought about silencing the shortened PP700, I knew a Ronin or Emperor wouldn't work — they are too long.
So, the only other way to go more quiet is to give the air/"sound" more space to expand and "dissipate" without making everybody's ears ring.
So, a bigger shroud tube. But since is so ridiculously short, it would need to have a ridiculously big diameter.... 😄
There is a series of articles by a guy who did semi-scientific comparative tests on a bunch of silencers, and who designed and tested replacement baffles for the Leshiy — better than EDgun made them.
He did some radical designs, too. Thinking outside the box, fascinating. 👍🏼😊
Matthias
Matthias
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If you take a look at the 1322 above, it has an Integrated air stripper, and several cnc cone baffles. I also added some felt dampening in the tip. It is actually very quiet. Much more so that I would have expected. It is about 5 or 5.5" long. The shroud is rather small
I have found cone baffles to be most evbective. More volume helps of course. And I always try to add a retaining cage + felt in the end of the unit.
Of course the shorter the barrel, the more wasted air (noise) you will have at higher power levels. Also, hammer bounce, if at all present, contributes heavily to increased report volume
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I beg to differ as to whether the shroud oin the PP 700 is effective or not. It may not do what you wish it did, but it is Very Effective for what its design purpos is.
It is designed to add tension to the barrel, and does it well. It is not a sound deadening device, nor is it intended to be.
However, Rocker 1 makes an adapter for very low cost to fit a mod if wanted. I have two Rocker 1 mods, and jor grins installed the Tatsu from DonnyFl that came with the Mini Raptor. All work well.
Rocker's are much lighter and do not interfere with the Reflex sight.
The same air pistol is avaliable for lesser money with a typical tube shroud that is more effective as a silencing device. ;)
Knife
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The same air pistol is avaliable for lesser money with a typical tube shroud that is more effective as a silencing device. ;)
Knife,
do you mean the green gripped PP700-W? 😊
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Knife, do you mean the green gripped PP700-W? 😊
The round shroud version appears to be discontinued, in favor of the barrel stiffening "square" shroud version. Milling away too much of that may make the barrel whippy and less accurate, so Knife has a good point. Of course, a larger custom semi round shroud could restore that rigidity.
This adapter for the OEM shroud seems cheap enough: https://www.krale.shop/en/silencer-adaptor-artemis-pp700s-a/ (https://www.krale.shop/en/silencer-adaptor-artemis-pp700s-a/) The question is, what is available in Peru; or can be shipped to Peru?
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This adapter for the OEM shroud seems cheap enough: https://www.krale.shop/en/silencer-adaptor-artemis-pp700s-a/ (https://www.krale.shop/en/silencer-adaptor-artemis-pp700s-a/)
The question is, what is available in Peru; or can be shipped to Peru?
No, it is not available in Peru. 😟
Yes, it can be shipped to Peru. 😊
Yes, it seems cheap enough!! 😄
It seems....
Only $12.50 for the adaptor, and a little bit of shipping to Peru, just $54.18!!! 🤣
➔ That's why I buy most of my airgunning stuff in the US or Germany, and have friends or colleagues bring them to me when the come to Peru....
Makes sometimes for 6-month waits.... But hey, at least I get the stuff, so I'm thankful...! 😊
Matthias
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😮 Wow, what's up with that? Definitely makes me appreciate low shipping cost in the US
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since is so ridiculously short, it would need to have a ridiculously big diameter.... 😄
Offset and fat, like this?
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I'd be real curious to see how effective that design is. Looks like it'd work fantastic
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My concern is about the asymmetry, causing a general downward "crosswind", pushing the pellet off axis.
I am willing to do another design that has two sets of spirals to address that asymmetry, but need to know a few basic specs before I invest another 4+ hours in a new design.
Matthias, what are your requirements for:
Core OD
Core Length
Offset of pellet axis from the center-line of the core?
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I had ideas about how to address the asymmetrical airflow for moderator that has an offset pellet channel, and just had to capture them :)
This mono-core is for 3D printing, although a simple variant could be devised for CNC machining.
Edited;
Sorry Gentlemen.. although the rules have changed allowing us to use terms like 'silencer', we are not permitted to show how to make them. Please read and adhere to the rules of the forum.
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That design looks like it would be pretty awesome!
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That design looks like it would be pretty awesome!
Well Donny, I did it, based on what Matthias said he wanted to achieve. Now, he seems shy about claiming or rejecting it :).
Total time spent for both designs was over 8 hours. I only wish someone would try it out. Else all that effort is wasted...
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I don't think you'll have any problem finding someone to try it out. There are TONS of PP700 pistols on here, the thread I started way back when I got mine is up to ninety something pages now,lol. Matthias may just be off the forum right now, or hasn't seen it yet? Give him time, I'm sure he'll catch up. If all else fails, I'd be happy to try it ;) I can even see how it works at much higher power levels too, haha.
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🔶 Peter / subscriber!
I am floored!!
I can't believe you did this awesome design, und just like that!
VERY, VERY COOL!! 😊
You are very talented — I can't begin to think about designing anything like that. Sweet!
This very much looks like this could do an amazing job a lowering the sound of a shot.
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🔶 As far as my silence, just like Rallyshark thought: I was off the forums for a couple of days — I had a birthday party to attend — with preparations and clean-up....! 🤣
So, thank you for your birthday present, Peter!! How cool is that?!! 😄
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🔶 About trying out the design — I'd love to!
However, as I said in Post #23, this requires funds....
Because of where I have chosen to live and do what I do, I have a very tight budget, and never will own a double-digit amount of guns....
And I'm fine with that.
However, buying a second PP700 to cut the barrel and airtube and make a one-off mega-silencer with your awesome design is not in my immediate future, as far as I can see.
➔ But my mind keeps thinking and planning, so that when I do have the funds, I can make it a reality.
Your initial posts about this — and now your design!! — just made me realize, that what I was pretty much a pipe dream in my mind can actually become reality!
Because of your baffle core designed for the "pipe" we call silencer/ moderator!! 😄
I do keep copious notes of the advice, information, lists, photos, diagrams, all that wonderful stuff I find on the forums — so this stuff including your design doesn't get lost on me! It's all filed away, with titles and tables on contents....! 😄
🔶 Wow, what an awesome community to be part of!
Thank you again, Peter, for doing this. 😊
As it's past midnight I'll check on the measurements on Monday. ✔️
Matthias