GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: Brawler1588 on January 06, 2020, 10:54:26 PM
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So I have a gauntlet in .25 and an aspen in .22 I wanted the Aspen for the reason you can pump it up on the fly. I want to use the .22 for small birds and pests and while it's a great concept even after pumping it 5-10 times your breathing rises and after some testing over the weekend it took some time to be able to settle down and be able to take a shot at something very small. I am looking for a very accurate and fairly light gun that has a decent shot count around the $500 mark. Any information would be greatly appreciated.
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Have you considered getting pump instead?
https://www.amazon.com/Hatsan-TactAir-Spark-Portable-Compressor/dp/B07L1SVSW1 (https://www.amazon.com/Hatsan-TactAir-Spark-Portable-Compressor/dp/B07L1SVSW1)
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Mathew, there are quite a few PCP’s in that price range. Benjamin Marauder, Diana Outlaw, a few Kral guns, JSAR Hawk, Air Arms S200 (order from Canada), Airforce TalonP or Talon, BSA Buccaneer, Gamo Urban, Hatsan Flash or Flashpup, Benjamin P-rod just to name a few, I’m sure others will chime in and give you many more options! Also check the classifieds 👍.
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Have you considered getting pump instead?
I have a 60 minute scba tank but on the Aspen you get 5-10 and than needs to be topped off before they begin to fall off while on low faster on high. Looking for something that can be filled up and go for some time.
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Mathew, there are quite a few PCP’s in that price range. Benjamin Marauder, Diana Outlaw, a few Kral guns, JSAR Hawk, Air Arms S200 (order from Canada), Airforce TalonP or Talon, BSA Buccaneer, Gamo Urban, Hatsan Flash or Flashpup, Benjamin P-rod just to name a few, I’m sure others will chime in and give you many more options! Also check the classifieds 👍.
Out of those I have had my eye on the hawk and have looked at a few kral guns. I have been looking at the classifieds too thank you for the input.
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You say "pump up and go for some time".
This translates in my head to wanting a huge shot count. Which in turn means either a low power tune and large tube OR a botte-gun. Combine with very accurate and fairly light.
Now this crosses almost everything in the $500 range off the list- it's all about finding the feature set PCPs that meet all those needs, then correlating to price. So lets clear some things:
1: how many shots are you hoping to get? Tune and caliber also play a big role here, so factor in caliber and power level.
2: bottle guns tend to be heavy-ish, unless you go with a carbon bottle, and no CF-bottle gun is $500-ish. Ish ish ish.
3: Very Accurate. That's untenable for a desire. How accurate? Let's assume MOA out to 50 yards, which also circles around .177, .20, and .22 because no .25 or larger is going to give a big shot count with a tube that's smaller/lightweight for $5000-ish ish ish ish
4: now add other factors- wood or synthetic stock?
5: rifle or bullpup? I'm leaving pistol out because no pistol is available that is light, has a long shot count, and is accurate, regardless of what anybody claim, because anything that IS, is not a pistol, it's a carbine
6: and we're still talking $500-ish
Knowing these we can cross just about everything off the list unless you want to spend time taking your PCP and working on the barrel, the tune, and generally polishing things up which means, as much as I hate to say, leaving out SPA. QC hurts them. Good overall designs, inexpensive, the potential for superb shooting PCPs, and also a good chance of getting a PCP that out of the box needs work.
Hatsan has some potential in their Flash PCPs. Small air tube so not a lot of shots- unless you tune the power level down. Flash Synthetic is under 6 pounds
Kral- several PCPs here, such as the various Puuchers, but these are not light weight. Turkish walnut is heavy! However, the NP-03 Puncher Carbine DOES make the cut- though the shot count won't be large
So let's look at others...
AA S200 PCP- CZ barrels, lower power levels, but superb accuracy, and available from a Canadian retailer at your budget max- a hair over 6 pounds
Gamo Urban, Gamo Coyote, and BSA Buccaneer (all grouped together since they have so much in common and use BSA barrels)- over 7 pounds
Cometa Orion- just over 7 pounds
Marauder- over 7 pounds- and not a guarantee you will get "very accurate"
Gauntlet is a bottle-gun and heavy
So looking at the information, there is only one PCP that meets the pricepoint, accuracy level, and is relatively light. Have you ordered your Air Arms S200 yet? Or will you getting the Kral Punch NP-03 Carbine? Or do you prefer the Hatsan Flash?
and looking at these three choices, I'd lean heavily toward that Air Arms as the barrel's inherent accuracy is a given.
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Here’s a link to the CZ 200. Now remember the price is CAD so you pay 2/3 of what is advertised. He also stocks the magazine kit if so inclined. That’s the route I’d take for a lightweight hunting rig but I’d stick to 177.https://www.airgunforum.ca/store/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=209 (https://www.airgunforum.ca/store/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=209)
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Thank you anti-squirel that kral was on the list to at but I was seeing 20 shots when tuned properly, as for the weight I just want it lighter than my gauntlet .25 which has a heavier scope and the larger bottle. As for the shot count would like at least 40+ if possible and I prefer synthetic if possible. I will definitely take a look at the ones you mentioned.
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Thank you anti-squirel that kral was on the list to at but I was seeing 20 shots when tuned properly, as for the weight I just want it lighter than my gauntlet .25 which has a heavier scope and the larger bottle. As for the shot count would like at least 40+ if possible and I prefer synthetic if possible. I will definitely take a look at the ones you mentioned.
Very welcome!
I'd look very hard at that Air Arms S200- it comes to $410 USD. I treat these questions as if I were making the same choice for me: in the sub-$500 range, there's only 5 choices I'd look at, each depending on minor details unique to the gun and feature set I want:
1: AA S200
2: BSA Buccaneer/Gamo Coyote (same gun basically)
3: Hatsan Flash- knowing I'd likely have to do some tuning/cleaning
4: Kral Puncher- either the carbine or the Marine in walnut
5: Cometa Orion
Be sure to check out the Classified section here (and the AGN/Yellow as well), along with vendors such as Aceros de Hispania. And for slightly LESS money, you can get a Gamo Urban. this is basically the Coyote/Buccaneer in a synthetic stock. I'm not aware of anybody who got an inaccurate Urban. Most folks buy, shoot, and then wax poetic about how awesome they are.
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I have the Puncher Mega Marine .177, shot count is about 60 before I have to top off. It comes in .22 and .25 as well. These guns have a power adjuster built in, just turn a small dial for the power you want. I hunt with mine and carrying it in woods is not a problem. Can't go wrong with the Urban either, light weight and accurate. Just depends on what you want to invest in. The guns mentioned are all good choices. Good luck.
https://kralarms.com/en/kategori/air-rifles/puncher-pcp/ (https://kralarms.com/en/kategori/air-rifles/puncher-pcp/)
https://www.pyramydair.com/brands/kral-arms?mid=351;sid=1375A617A415&N=0&Ntk=primary&q=kral&cx=002970863286801882398:jlcminxfwdw&cof=FORID:11;NB:1&saSearch (https://www.pyramydair.com/brands/kral-arms?mid=351;sid=1375A617A415&N=0&Ntk=primary&q=kral&cx=002970863286801882398:jlcminxfwdw&cof=FORID:11;NB:1&saSearch)
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Diana outlaw gets a decent shot count. Reviews say its accurate.
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Anyone know the shot count on a flash .22 without crazy tweaking?
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Just cry once and get an Uragan,...it checks all you boxes :)
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The Gamo Urban can be tuned for a 27-2800 psi fill and around 30 shots and you will have enough left for a scope and rings. For the price of a longer screw and a drop of thread locker the trigger is very nice. The BSA barrel is accurate. With the small air tube, topping it off with a hand pump when your tank runs low is quite easy.
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Just cry once and get an Uragan,...it checks all you boxes :)
I really would if I had the funds but plan on selling the Aspen to help fund it. I am a stay at home dad with no income now and the wife won't finance any more hobbies so If I want stuff need to sell stuff. Have a few larger items to sell but that need to go to bills, we have a little girl due at the end of April. I really like the uragan, that was on the list and so was the raptor mini but they are out of reach that's why I was looking at the hawk.
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Even better reason to get an Urban.
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I second the Diana Outlaw, people that have never had one of these don't know what they're missing.
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Here is one that has been on my wish list for a while...
The Kral Puncher Pro 500. PA now has a refurb for $525
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/kral-puncher-pro-500-pcp-air-rifle?m=4772#10244 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/kral-puncher-pro-500-pcp-air-rifle?m=4772#10244)
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Here is one that has been on my wish list for a while...
The Kral Puncher Pro 500. PA now has a refurb for $525
Why that over the knight is it because the knight is a bullpup?
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Why that over the knight is it because the knight is a bullpup?
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Yes, purely a personal preference thing.
I like a conventional rifle over bull-pup, and wood over synthetic.
But that's just me.
Here was my thread on searching a bottle gun.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=161068.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=161068.0)
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Thanks just took a look at your thread good read but mine doesn't need to have a bottle and I would prefer to be $500 or less. I have a buddy that loves his krals. The thing is I need to research the others mentioned like the air arms the bsa never heard of them I'm still new to this world. Also if anyone reading has stuff and willing to take an Aspen as part of a trade feel free message me. Curious what's the ETA on the hawks too
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Flying Dragon Airguns has the Xisico Sentry Deluxe in stock right now for $315. They're basically just like the Hawk without the bottle and an air tube instead. I still want to get one but I ordered me a Artemis M11MKII instead. The major change from the old Sentry is the addition of Sidelever, bigger air tube, airguage is mounted up front now. The power is better on the Deluxe model too. The regular Sentry's are available also for around $270. http://flyingdragonairrifles.org/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=70 (http://flyingdragonairrifles.org/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=70)
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I have the Puncher Mega Marine .177, shot count is about 60 before I have to top off. It comes in .22 and .25 as well. These guns have a power adjuster built in, just turn a small dial for the power you want. I hunt with mine and carrying it in woods is not a problem. Can't go wrong with the Urban either, light weight and accurate. Just depends on what you want to invest in. The guns mentioned are all good choices. Good luck.
https://kralarms.com/en/kategori/air-rifles/puncher-pcp/ (https://kralarms.com/en/kategori/air-rifles/puncher-pcp/)
https://www.pyramydair.com/brands/kral-arms?mid=351;sid=1375A617A415&N=0&Ntk=primary&q=kral&cx=002970863286801882398:jlcminxfwdw&cof=FORID:11;NB:1&saSearch (https://www.pyramydair.com/brands/kral-arms?mid=351;sid=1375A617A415&N=0&Ntk=primary&q=kral&cx=002970863286801882398:jlcminxfwdw&cof=FORID:11;NB:1&saSearch)
I tend to listen to everything this lady says- she's got a lot of airguns I've wanted and is willing to share her experiences, good and bad.
Purportedly the newer Krals have resolved a lot of the original problems (sidelevers and valves), and not many people gripe about accuracy. The nickel-finished models are real beauts with the walnut, too. After reading how Kral improved things, the Puncher Marine rifle with the half-shroud is squarely on my radar.
Likewise, what Wayne mentioned is true. I forgot about the Sentry ::)
BSA and Air Arms are serious shooters- top-notch barrels. Dang it, too many airguns I like!
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I need to research the others mentioned like the air arms the bsa never heard of them I'm still new to this world.
Air Arms and BSA have a LONG history of being top notch airguns.
BSA (Britannia Small Arms) has been around since WWI.
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I have a 60 minute scba tank but on the Aspen you get 5-10 and than needs to be topped off before they begin to fall off while on low faster on high. Looking for something that can be filled up and go for some time.
I am selling a KRAL Puncher Pitbull in .22. It has dual tanks for a total of 755cc. It does over 120 shots per fill!! See Rick Eutsler's review on it on youtube. Selling for $399 + shipping (details by PM)
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So I have a gauntlet in .25 and an aspen in .22 I wanted the Aspen for the reason you can pump it up on the fly. I want to use the .22 for small birds and pests and while it's a great concept even after pumping it 5-10 times your breathing rises and after some testing over the weekend it took some time to be able to settle down and be able to take a shot at something very small. I am looking for a very accurate and fairly light gun that has a decent shot count around the $500 mark. Any information would be greatly appreciated.
well me I am pretty good at tuning up accuracy with Crosman barrels when needed so me I might go for a Fortitude...if putting shot count and light first.. the trigger will never be great but can be made very serviceable for a field rifle imo...
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/benjamin-fortitude-gen-2-pcp-air-rifle-regulated?m=4569 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/benjamin-fortitude-gen-2-pcp-air-rifle-regulated?m=4569)
me I can get used to a trigger that is decent my max trigger only did a spring mod and feel it is very workable same with my 13xx pumpers...just do not need better... honestly tho, may get the Baker metal trigger later this year...
But there is another option if you want better trigger... yay Lego builds... https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=150631.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=150631.0)
I think Crosman is claiming 23 fpe for the .22...
https://www.crosman.com/fortitude-22 (https://www.crosman.com/fortitude-22)
I am a bit bummed about not getting one during the Crosman 25% off sale... it has a lot of potential with very good parts support...
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I need to research the others mentioned like the air arms the bsa never heard of them I'm still new to this world.
Air Arms and BSA have a LONG history of being top notch airguns.
BSA (Britannia Small Arms) has been around since WWI.
Actually Birmingham Small Arms has been around way longer than that.. ;) 1861... with Birmingham Gunsmithing roots to the 1600's...
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Thanks for the info!
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Quick question between .22 and a .25 the. 22 goes faster because its smaller but does that mean it will have more penetration because it's faster or the .25 will because it is larger a d heavier?
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Quick question between .22 and a .25 the. 22 goes faster because its smaller but does that mean it will have more penetration because it's faster or the .25 will because it is larger and heavier?
penetration is often determined by cross-sectional area if all other factors (pellet shape and velocity) are the same, however, penetration is- as a rule- less important in airguns depending on the type of shooting. There are numerous threads devoted to this subject spread all throughout every airgun forum.
If your intention is pesting or hunting, a .25 is always going to deliver more energy for a given type of pellet/slug shape if they have the same profile and velocity. A simple "more mass at same velocity" equations proves it.
For reference- all my pesting is performed inside 40 yards, primarily under 20. At my short ranges, I use wadcutters 90% of the time. Wadcutters penetrate less than domes, which is exactly what I want since pass-throughs are something I try to avoid. When I hunt I'm in open forest, so I break out different pellets (mainly domes or Polymag-style) and my ranges increase to about 40 yards.
One of the best determining factors for choosing a caliber is: what do you intend to do with it.? In fact, that is really the ONLY important thing in my not-humble-at-all openion unless you intend to reach out 80+ yards for plinking and target shooting, which may require a minor redirection.
the bottom line, there is no wrong answer. I just advise figuring out what you really want to do with it before you make any other decisions. Let the final determinant be price. Everything else is variable.
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Quick question between .22 and a .25 the. 22 goes faster because its smaller but does that mean it will have more penetration because it's faster or the .25 will because it is larger and heavier?
penetration is often determined by cross-sectional area if all other factors (pellet shape and velocity) are the same, however, penetration is- as a rule- less important in airguns depending on the type of shooting. There are numerous threads devoted to this subject spread all throughout every airgun forum.
If your intention is pesting or hunting, a .25 is always going to deliver more energy for a given type of pellet/slug shape if they have the same profile and velocity. A simple "more mass at same velocity" equations proves it.
For reference- all my pesting is performed inside 40 yards, primarily under 20. At my short ranges, I use wadcutters 90% of the time. Wadcutters penetrate less than domes, which is exactly what I want since pass-throughs are something I try to avoid. When I hunt I'm in open forest, so I break out different pellets (mainly domes or Polymag-style) and my ranges increase to about 40 yards.
One of the best determining factors for choosing a caliber is: what do you intend to do with it.? In fact, that is really the ONLY important thing in my not-humble-at-all openion unless you intend to reach out 80+ yards for plinking and target shooting, which may require a minor redirection.
the bottom line, there is no wrong answer. I just advise figuring out what you really want to do with it before you make any other decisions. Let the final determinant be price. Everything else is variable.
All my intentions will be for small game hunting and pesting. I have the hollow point slugs for my gauntlet and they are 32.80gr and shoot great at 25 yards haven't tested farther yet but even with the heavy slug I wasnt sure if it would over penetrate while pesting smaller birds etc. This is why I am looking at the .22 will this help with the right ammo on the .22 if I get hollow point slugs to shoot well will they or at least have a chance to penetrate less?
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Quick question between .22 and a .25 the. 22 goes faster because its smaller but does that mean it will have more penetration because it's faster or the .25 will because it is larger and heavier?
penetration is often determined by cross-sectional area if all other factors (pellet shape and velocity) are the same, however, penetration is- as a rule- less important in airguns depending on the type of shooting. There are numerous threads devoted to this subject spread all throughout every airgun forum.
If your intention is pesting or hunting, a .25 is always going to deliver more energy for a given type of pellet/slug shape if they have the same profile and velocity. A simple "more mass at same velocity" equations proves it.
For reference- all my pesting is performed inside 40 yards, primarily under 20. At my short ranges, I use wadcutters 90% of the time. Wadcutters penetrate less than domes, which is exactly what I want since pass-throughs are something I try to avoid. When I hunt I'm in open forest, so I break out different pellets (mainly domes or Polymag-style) and my ranges increase to about 40 yards.
One of the best determining factors for choosing a caliber is: what do you intend to do with it.? In fact, that is really the ONLY important thing in my not-humble-at-all openion unless you intend to reach out 80+ yards for plinking and target shooting, which may require a minor redirection.
the bottom line, there is no wrong answer. I just advise figuring out what you really want to do with it before you make any other decisions. Let the final determinant be price. Everything else is variable.
All my intentions will be for small game hunting and pesting. I have the hollow point slugs for my gauntlet and they are 32.80gr and shoot great at 25 yards haven't tested farther yet but even with the heavy slug I wasnt sure if it would over penetrate while pesting smaller birds etc. This is why I am looking at the .22 will this help with the right ammo on the .22 if I get hollow point slugs to shoot well will they or at least have a chance to penetrate less?
Small birds like HOSPs need about 5 foot-pounds of energy tops. Pigeons and Starlings I take it higher, but not much more is needed. I'd recommend wadcutters over anything else especially since you're shooting close-in.
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What is the difference between a wad cutter and normal pellet or slug?
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What is the difference between a wad cutter and normal pellet or slug?
Wad cutters look like shuttlecocks. The are the flat tops of pellets.
https://www.pyramydair.com/search-results-ext?keyword=wad+cutter&sid=1375A617A415&N=0&Ntk=primary&q=wad+cutter&cx=002970863286801882398:jlcminxfwdw&cof=FORID:11;NB:1&saSearch (https://www.pyramydair.com/search-results-ext?keyword=wad+cutter&sid=1375A617A415&N=0&Ntk=primary&q=wad+cutter&cx=002970863286801882398:jlcminxfwdw&cof=FORID:11;NB:1&saSearch)
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Yeah, pellets have skirts (typically domed, pointed or hollow point), wadcutter pellets are flattop and slugs have no skirts....
Best I can do.
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Thanks I now see they are flat but what do that mean to impact on an animal wouldn't a hollow point slow down on impact more. Also I pulled the trigger on a flashpup synthetic paid $337 with an extra mag this way I'm under the $500 mark and doesn't hurt so bad.
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Thanks I now see they are flat but what do that mean to impact on an animal wouldn't a hollow point slow down on impact more. Also I pulled the trigger on a flashpup synthetic paid $337 with an extra mag this way I'm under the $500 mark and doesn't hurt so bad.
Then this would be of no interest to you -
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=167382.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=167382.0)
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Thanks I now see they are flat but what do that mean to impact on an animal wouldn't a hollow point slow down on impact more. Also I pulled the trigger on a flashpup synthetic paid $337 with an extra mag this way I'm under the $500 mark and doesn't hurt so bad.
No sir, that flat nose will have a greater impact and be less chance of pass through.
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Matthew (Brawler), wadcutters are very effective for short-range pesting. I've spent way more time than I'm willing to admit regarding shooting already-dead squirrels to measure "lethality" IE: impact and pass-through potential. I've found with lower velocities(700 FPS and less) wadcutters are just about unsurpassed at lethality. They are also less accurate at longer rangers and great velocities, sadly, and I'm aware of only NOE cast pellets being the only .25 wadcutters. I'm not aware of anything larger- which is a travesty IMHO. My concerns when pesting are lethality and reduced risk of passthrough, and this is where wadcutters excel.
However, .22 wadcutters are superlative for my needs. Your Hatsan will likely be shooting a little fast to make good accuracy or use of wadcutters, but the gun can be tuned down if desired. Sans wadcutters, Polymags and hollowpoints are excellent, and of course, the JSB Hades has already developed a good reputation for pest control.
In the end, your airgun's barrel and velocity will determine what it shoots best, so let that be your guide. There's a good pellet for just about every airgun, and unlike springers, PCPs give you a lot more flexibility when it comes to tuning/adjusting power. Once you figure out the energy level you want, look for The Pellet :)
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A flat surface of a wadcutter does not penetrate (as far), so delivers more of it's energy on impact.
Contrary to common terminology, a hollow-point pellet vs a domed pellet, does not mushroom out like a PB hollow point vs a FMJ...
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A flat surface of a wadcutter does not penetrate (as far), so delivers more of it's energy on impact.
Contrary to common terminology, a hollow-point pellet vs a domed pellet, does not mushroom out like a PB hollow point vs a FMJ...
HPs do make a pretty nice meatslap sound though :) I generally skip HPs though some of my airguns prefer them- mainly those shooting lower velocities.
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Thanks I now see they are flat but what do that mean to impact on an animal wouldn't a hollow point slow down on impact more. Also I pulled the trigger on a flashpup synthetic paid $337 with an extra mag this way I'm under the $500 mark and doesn't hurt so bad.
Then this would be of no interest to you -
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=167382.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=167382.0)
Of course they are shipping them out now, curious what the lead time is for a new purchase.
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A flat surface of a wadcutter does not penetrate (as far), so delivers more of it's energy on impact.
Contrary to common terminology, a hollow-point pellet vs a domed pellet, does not mushroom out like a PB hollow point vs a FMJ...
HPs do make a pretty nice meatslap sound though :) I generally skip HPs though some of my airguns prefer them- mainly those shooting lower velocities.
2 things how are the HP from a slug compared to pellets though I have the ones from fx and avs on hand I can try, and second I know all guns like something different but what's a good starting point for .22 wadcutters?
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Name brand... RWS.. my .22 guns prefer the 13.73 gr "sports" over the lighter weight 11.9 gr "hobbies"... but nothing beats the 14.0 gr Meisterkugeln for accuracy.
I need to buy a couple tins of the JSB 13.73's ;)
https://www.pyramydair.com/ammo (https://www.pyramydair.com/ammo)
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Name brand... RWS.. my .22 guns prefer the 13.73 gr "sports" over the lighter weight 11.9 gr "hobbies"... but nothing beats the 14.0 gr Meisterkugeln for accuracy.
I need to buy a couple tins of the JSB 13.73's ;)
https://www.pyramydair.com/ammo (https://www.pyramydair.com/ammo)
I concur with Scott.
I always have 2 full tins of RWS Meisterdangitkugelns on-hand because almost everything I own shoots them well if I keep velocity under 700 FPS. My ideal velocity is right around 620-ish but keeping them between 400 to 700 works in my various airguns. Now understand, I don't keep more than one tin of anything else on-hand. H&N sells several different weights of wadcutters, Sig and Crosman sell wadcutters, as does JSB, Air Arms, Predator, Daisy, and Gamo.. The list goes on and on!
When it comes to pellet testing in a new airgun, I keep in mind the velocity- I won't bother shooting wadcutters out of my Varmint unless I need a good laugh. It is shooting way too fast for them. In my CO2 2400KT and my down-tuned Maximus, they shoot superb. At the factory power level in my Maximus, I get better accuracy with JSB Exact Heavy domes and RWS Superdomes- so just be mindful of the power level/velocity.