GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: DrGunner on November 24, 2019, 09:16:18 PM
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Thank You ALL
For your time, advice and patience answering all of my many questions in the process of helping me decide on my first PCP air rifle and scope.
The combination of a Daystate Regal XL and MTC Mamba Lite 4-16x42 Side Focus scope turned out to be the PERFECT combination for backyard NRA smallbore silhouette practice. The Regal is incredibly similar to the rifle I compete with, an Anschutz 1712- in every parameter that matters- size, weight, stock style, fit, balance, quality and trigger. The Regal is actually about 8oz lighter than my 1712, but that turned out to be a good thing as the MTC Mamba Lite scope is about 4oz heavier than my Sightron and Leupold silhouette scopes. The only thing that I would change, if I could- would be the reticle on the scope- but now that I have some trigger time on it, it turns out the Mamba will do just FINE.
I prefer a large dot scope, my favorite being a 1/2” Leupold dot, which features heavy to medium crosshairs that taper all the way from edge to center, becoming fine where there’s a 1/2” dot (@ 100 yards). The reticle on the Mamba is a bit too “busy” for my taste....and I usually don’t like illuminated reticles, unless they’re on a red dot sight like the several Ultradot sights that I own. That’s the irony here- It turns out that the “floating cross in brackets” on the Mamba, which looks kinda like this - [ + ].
It works VERY well to keep my eye and my offhand hold trained on the target. Much like a large dot reticle, everything in the periphery tends to fade away, which leaves me confidently holding in the zone for a clean trigger break. Most importantly, I’m able to stay on target with a clean follow through, which is something that was simply not possible with my old RWS springers.
During my first silhouette practice session today, I shot a string of 5/4, 5/4, 5/5, & 5/4. For those who don’t shoot silhouette, that is an outstanding result for a new setup, first outing- especially considering the fact that I hadn’t shot in over a month, and I’m nursing a sore right shoulder.
My Regal XL is QUIET. Incredibly so- I was out back shooting for over an hour this morning, and when I came in the house for coffee my wife asked me if I was going to start shooting soon? - since she wanted to let the dogs out. When I told her I’d already shot 40 rounds right outside the door of our family room, she had a hard time believing me.
It’s more than accurate enough for my purposes, and approaches the accuracy of some of my more accurate rimfire rifles. It could not run with my best rimfire rifles so far, but I still have a long way to go testing different pellets and figuring out the sweet spot in the pressure curve where I can expect the most consistent velocity before I’ll realize it’s true accuracy potential.
I have to give a shout out to both Jim at Precision Airguns & Supply and Jeff at Trenier Outdoors. Both were extremely helpful and patient, answering my endless questions & helping me make informed purchases with confidence. Both outfits answered email, returned calls and provided much more info than I expected-always responding quickly and neither one ever gave a hint at being frustrated or impatient with my questions, and there were many.
Much like all of you here. Y’all made me feel immediately welcome and helped me learn a ton of technical info in a very short time.
I could not be happier with my first PCP & scope- which would NOT have been possible without the generous help & expert guidance of all of you fine folks. ;) ;D
Thank you ALL for helping make it happen.
Sincerely,
DrGunner
As Promised, here is some airgun porn for y’all-
Daystate Huntsman Regal XL
MTC Mamba Lite 4-16x42 SF
D3 Precision Silhouette rings, 1.5”
(http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q535/drkgavin/Daystate%20Regal/2797106A-C95A-454B-A09F-6D727D340640_zpsizjszbvx.jpg) (http://s1162.photobucket.com/user/drkgavin/media/Daystate%20Regal/2797106A-C95A-454B-A09F-6D727D340640_zpsizjszbvx.jpg.html)
(http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q535/drkgavin/Daystate%20Regal/F7179362-7E06-43ED-B021-E47FA00F7A97_zpsssahn6rh.jpg) (http://s1162.photobucket.com/user/drkgavin/media/Daystate%20Regal/F7179362-7E06-43ED-B021-E47FA00F7A97_zpsssahn6rh.jpg.html)
(http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q535/drkgavin/Daystate%20Regal/96397DFD-D79F-4633-87FF-4A44F6E2DE20_zpsidmytbcv.jpg) (http://s1162.photobucket.com/user/drkgavin/media/Daystate%20Regal/96397DFD-D79F-4633-87FF-4A44F6E2DE20_zpsidmytbcv.jpg.html)
(http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q535/drkgavin/Daystate%20Regal/023D25A6-0558-4483-98ED-F142268F45E4_zpsefcxc2t8.jpg) (http://s1162.photobucket.com/user/drkgavin/media/Daystate%20Regal/023D25A6-0558-4483-98ED-F142268F45E4_zpsefcxc2t8.jpg.html)
(http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q535/drkgavin/Daystate%20Regal/2E57B2CE-1732-4A60-BCCA-90E09AD1F052_zpsyudizpxh.jpg) (http://s1162.photobucket.com/user/drkgavin/media/Daystate%20Regal/2E57B2CE-1732-4A60-BCCA-90E09AD1F052_zpsyudizpxh.jpg.html)
(http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q535/drkgavin/Daystate%20Regal/F06ACE8C-298C-4514-9F6B-AE14787DC47D_zpsrcijzhmz.jpg) (http://s1162.photobucket.com/user/drkgavin/media/Daystate%20Regal/F06ACE8C-298C-4514-9F6B-AE14787DC47D_zpsrcijzhmz.jpg.html)
10 shots @ 30 yards, shot off of 2 Protektor 13B Tall Bunny Ear leather bags, lined with fabric softener sheets, lol.
JSB Diabolo Exact Heavy .177 Cal, 10.34 Grains, Domed
(http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q535/drkgavin/Daystate%20Regal/2389F8EF-021A-4DD3-A713-BC99C81D7C3E_zps3n4mcsvp.jpg) (http://s1162.photobucket.com/user/drkgavin/media/Daystate%20Regal/2389F8EF-021A-4DD3-A713-BC99C81D7C3E_zps3n4mcsvp.jpg.html)
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Your homework paid off in spades ! That is a fantastic setup you've got there. It looks like you two are getting along wonderfully.
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Nice looking set up Kevin.
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That stock is gorgeous. Well done!
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Tell us more about the rings. I have never shot Silhouette .
Mitch
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Glad it all came together for you. Jim sure picked you out a fine piece of furniture. Have fun and enjoy.
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Your homework paid off in spades ! That is a fantastic setup you've got there. It looks like you two are getting along wonderfully.
Thanks! I have the worst kind of Deja Vu. It seems like I get a new toy I really like RIGHT when the weather here in the upper Midwest turns nasty. At least the shooting gods gave me a beautiful day today, though.
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Nice looking set up Kevin.
Thank you, sir- I happen to agree.
That stock is gorgeous. Well done!
Thanks 🙏 for that!
That was one of the perks provided by Jim at PA&S. When I decided on the Daystate, I emailed 3 vendors- Pyramyd, Airguns of Az, and PA&S.
I copied and pasted the same message to all three. In a nutshell, I told them that I was decided on the Regal XL, and I’m a huge fan of finely figured walnut and maple. I asked could they please look through their inventory, find one with the best stock and send me a couple of pictures. I’ve done the same many times buying rimfire and centerfire rifles. The next morning, I had an email with pictures of the beauty you see above from Jim at PA & S. The other two never did bother to respond. That’s fine by me,
Precision Airguns & Supply had the best price- $999 plus about $30 shipping.
You don’t find Customer Service like that every day. I will definitely continue to do business with Jim and Diane, I‘ll buy my pellets and any other supplies from them, even if they cost more. I believe in supporting businesses that deserve my hard earned money.
DrGunner
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Tell us more about the rings. I have never shot Silhouette .
Mitch
Mitch- the NRA limits scope height to 1.5” above the rail. There are two companies that make silhouette specific 1.5 inch rings, D3 Precision which is run by a great guy named Pete who sells on eBay, $50 plus shipping and then there’s Morr Accuracy rings which run about $85 a pair and only come in raw aluminum. I have both, and while I have a slight preference for the Morr aesthetics of the Morr Accuracy rings, the D3 Precision are actually easier to work with installing and removing as they use a 2 screw and separate steel clamp configuration, while the Morr Accuracy rings use a single screw without a separate clamping plate and you have to spread the clamping jaws to fit them. It’s not that big a deal if you plan to install and forget them, but I often start the season with a variable scope and then move to a higher power fixed. If you want details and pics, I posted a comprehensive review of both rings on RimfireCentral.com:
https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1159821 (https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1159821)
I Edited the following which I posted in response to another query in the Optics Gate several weeks ago:
The purpose of tall rings for silhouette has nothing to do with clearing the scope objective over the barrel, at all.
Many shooters, especially benchrest disciplines try to mount their scopes as close to the bore axis as they can- theoretically and in practice, mounting a scope low can minimize parallax issues, as it brings the line of sight and axis of the bore closer and thus the intersection down range more forgiving.
I used to set my rifles up that way, and did the same with my first attempts at silhouette shooting. Time and experience have taught me that if my rifle is set up properly, the comfort and fit of my rifle and scope matter much more. Raising the scope height for offhand shooting has advantages.
NRA smallbore silhouette has 2 classes- Hunter and Standard which some call Unlimited. I shoot Hunter class-Which has the following restrictions:
The rifle has to be a traditional sporter style stock and fit in a “conformation box” provided by the range officer at each match.
The comb cannot extend above the axis of the bore.
The foreend must be a traditional hunting taper.
Barrel no longer than 26”
The stock cannot have any attachments or projections/hand hold devices.
Slings are allowed- but cannot be USED to assist the hold. (No wrist/elbow wrap!)
Scope cannot be mounted higher than 1.5” above the rifle.
Rifle and scope cannot weigh over 8.5 lb.
Trigger cannot be lighter than 2lb.
Barrel must be tapered.
No aftermarket tuners or barrel attachments allowed. Factory tuners/barrel weights are allowed, provided they do not function as a muzzle brake.
It’s just you and a typical hunting style rifle.
Shooting silhouette primarily requires CONSISTENCY . You want to shoulder the rifle the same way, every time, and you want a clear scope image to naturally appear every time you pull up and hold.
You need a scope that can RELIABLY track from 40m to 60m, 77m and 100m then back down to 40 again- without any inconsistency in the POA/POI relationship. From 40-100 and back usually involves around 40 clicks on a 1/4” increment elevation turret.
It is POSSIBLE to use a Mil-Dot reticle & holdover- but you’ll never see anyone in the upper half of the pack doing it- or at least I haven’t.
You want your head as vertical as you can get. Think of tall rings as “lowering the rifle” as you raise the scope. Your forward hand is propped on your ribcage and hip, so as you mount the scope higher, your forward hand doesn’t have to work so hard to raise the rifle and hold it steady.
It’s much easier to hold my rifle stable with taller rings.
Many silhouette shooters cant the scope in the rings, rotating the scope about 5 degrees or so clockwise for a right handed shooter, so when the rifle is shouldered the scope is rolled toward the shooters eye for the crosshairs to be level. This also aids in keeping the head straight. Keeping your head straight helps with overall balance.
Everyone has different body dimensions, and we often learn bad form for true offhand consistency- I know I certainly did.
I had to unlearn many bad habits before I started to see any success shooting silhouette.
As you learn better form, your rifle setup often evolves over time- I use what works for me. I find my hold to be much more stable and I have longer lasting hold stamina over the course of a 40 and especially an 80 shot match. Try hitting a 3”x4” target at 84 yards or a 5”x5” target at 109 yards with a rimfire rifle, without a sling or any added attachments and you’ll see what I mean.
The truth is, NRA smallbore silhouette is one of the single most technically difficult shooting disciplines to master- but it’s also one of the most rewarding. Seeing a Ram 🐏 fly off the rail 109 yards away is a hoot! We shoot with subsonic ammo- about 1050fps, so 1/3 of a second passes between the shot and the hit, which is then soon followed by the “clang” reaching your ears. Too much fun, IF you like a challenge.
I know this is a LOT more than you bargained for, but silhouette has become my passion.
I got into benchrest and precision accuracy for a few years, and as a result, my offhand shooting skills suffered horribly. About 5-6 Years ago, I started researching methods to practice offhand shooting and some of my friends on RFC steered me towards silhouette and my clutch cable broke during my first match, LOL. I literally shot a score of 3/40, but I was HOOKED.
DrGunner
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Glad it all came together for you. Jim sure picked you out a fine piece of furniture. Have fun and enjoy.
Yes, he did!
Now I’ve got to solve the air source conundrum.
It turns out I actually OWN two of those huge 5 foot tall 300Cu/Ft medical Nitrogen tanks, and have an account with a gas supply outfit.
Unfortunately, I think the company will only fill the tanks I own to 3500PSI, although they might be rated for 6000.
Could you imagine? I ran the numbers through AoA’s calculator. If they would fill one to 4500, I’d get approximately 240 fills on my Regal!
I’m going to reach out to the company rep and see what they have available. Medical air and nitrogen have to be sterile and MUST be 100% dry.
I’m hoping I can work with the tanks I have.
Running nitrogen gas is supposed to be perfectly safe in PCPs
(http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q535/drkgavin/Daystate%20Regal/CBBC665C-C4DE-45A3-A958-3A4560198846_zpsmhs6w4bl.jpg) (http://s1162.photobucket.com/user/drkgavin/media/Daystate%20Regal/CBBC665C-C4DE-45A3-A958-3A4560198846_zpsmhs6w4bl.jpg.html)
DrGunner
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Are you shooting 10th or 5th scale targets? Which the Regal and what distances?
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Are you shooting 10th or 5th scale targets? Which the Regal and what distances?
I shoot 5th scale targets when I shoot rimfire silhouette. I have stencils that are scaled 1/5 targets for 25 and 50 yard practice. To make my hits easy to see, I buy large rectangular Birchwood Casey Shoot-n-C scope dial in targets and cut the critters out of them. Then I stick them on a cardboard backing and laminate them with a 3M adhesive laminating doohickey, which serves two purposes:
They’re weather proof, so I can leave them up for a week or two, and
The lamination serves to make the day-glo yellow ring made by each shot much smaller, so each target is good for more hits before it needs to be replaced.
Today, I dialed the rifle in at 25 and 50 yards and tested 8.3gr, 9.59gr, 10.34gr, and 10.65gr pellets. It seems to do best with the 9.59 & 10.34gr pellets.
My offhand practice string was all shot at 25 yards with 1/5 scale cutouts. I’m trying to duplicate the size of 1/5 scale rimfire silhouettes, scaled to the right size for the distances I’m shooting.
I know absolutely nothing about air rifle silhouette.
Please, educate me as to what size the targets are, what distance(s) they’re shot at and what rules/limitations are used?
I might as well look into the discipline, I’ve already got a good competitive setup-
DrGunner
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Kevin, congratulations on getting a classic Daystate Regal! I had one in .22 with a similar striped stock...great accurate rifles for sure, enjoy!
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Air rifle silhouette 10th scale C 20 yards P 30 yards T 36 yards R 45 yards. I have a set but prefer shooting rimfire animals. I have a set of swingers that I use with the air rifle but usually only shoot the chicken at 40. But you made me think I would like to have some 5th size scaled down and make some swingers. I hope I can find some.
thanks
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Tell us more about the rings. I have never shot Silhouette .
Mitch
Mitch- the NRA limits scope height to 1.5” above the rail. There are two companies that make silhouette specific 1.5 inch rings, D3 Precision which is run by a great guy named Pete who sells on eBay, $50 plus shipping and then there’s Morr Accuracy rings which run about $85 a pair and only come in raw aluminum. I have both, and while I have a slight preference for the Morr aesthetics of the Morr Accuracy rings, the D3 Precision are actually easier to work with installing and removing as they use a 2 screw and separate steel clamp configuration, while the Morr Accuracy rings use a single screw without a separate clamping plate and you have to spread the clamping jaws to fit them. It’s not that big a deal if you plan to install and forget them, but I often start the season with a variable scope and then move to a higher power fixed. If you want details and pics, I posted a comprehensive review of both rings on RimfireCentral.com:
https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1159821 (https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1159821)
I Edited the following which I posted in response to another query in the Optics Gate several weeks ago:
The purpose of tall rings for silhouette has nothing to do with clearing the scope objective over the barrel, at all.
Many shooters, especially benchrest disciplines try to mount their scopes as close to the bore axis as they can- theoretically and in practice, mounting a scope low can minimize parallax issues, as it brings the line of sight and axis of the bore closer and thus the intersection down range more forgiving.
I used to set my rifles up that way, and did the same with my first attempts at silhouette shooting. Time and experience have taught me that if my rifle is set up properly, the comfort and fit of my rifle and scope matter much more. Raising the scope height for offhand shooting has advantages.
NRA smallbore silhouette has 2 classes- Hunter and Standard which some call Unlimited. I shoot Hunter class-Which has the following restrictions:
The rifle has to be a traditional sporter style stock and fit in a “conformation box” provided by the range officer at each match.
The comb cannot extend above the axis of the bore.
The foreend must be a traditional hunting taper.
Barrel no longer than 26”
The stock cannot have any attachments or projections/hand hold devices.
Slings are allowed- but cannot be USED to assist the hold. (No wrist/elbow wrap!)
Scope cannot be mounted higher than 1.5” above the rifle.
Rifle and scope cannot weigh over 8.5 lb.
Trigger cannot be lighter than 2lb.
Barrel must be tapered.
No aftermarket tuners or barrel attachments allowed. Factory tuners/barrel weights are allowed, provided they do not function as a muzzle brake.
It’s just you and a typical hunting style rifle.
Shooting silhouette primarily requires CONSISTENCY . You want to shoulder the rifle the same way, every time, and you want a clear scope image to naturally appear every time you pull up and hold.
You need a scope that can RELIABLY track from 40m to 60m, 77m and 100m then back down to 40 again- without any inconsistency in the POA/POI relationship. From 40-100 and back usually involves around 40 clicks on a 1/4” increment elevation turret.
It is POSSIBLE to use a Mil-Dot reticle & holdover- but you’ll never see anyone in the upper half of the pack doing it- or at least I haven’t.
You want your head as vertical as you can get. Think of tall rings as “lowering the rifle” as you raise the scope. Your forward hand is propped on your ribcage and hip, so as you mount the scope higher, your forward hand doesn’t have to work so hard to raise the rifle and hold it steady.
It’s much easier to hold my rifle stable with taller rings.
Many silhouette shooters cant the scope in the rings, rotating the scope about 5 degrees or so clockwise for a right handed shooter, so when the rifle is shouldered the scope is rolled toward the shooters eye for the crosshairs to be level. This also aids in keeping the head straight. Keeping your head straight helps with overall balance.
Everyone has different body dimensions, and we often learn bad form for true offhand consistency- I know I certainly did.
I had to unlearn many bad habits before I started to see any success shooting silhouette.
As you learn better form, your rifle setup often evolves over time- I use what works for me. I find my hold to be much more stable and I have longer lasting hold stamina over the course of a 40 and especially an 80 shot match. Try hitting a 3”x4” target at 84 yards or a 5”x5” target at 109 yards with a rimfire rifle, without a sling or any added attachments and you’ll see what I mean.
The truth is, NRA smallbore silhouette is one of the single most technically difficult shooting disciplines to master- but it’s also one of the most rewarding. Seeing a Ram 🐏 fly off the rail 109 yards away is a hoot! We shoot with subsonic ammo- about 1050fps, so 1/3 of a second passes between the shot and the hit, which is then soon followed by the “clang” reaching your ears. Too much fun, IF you like a challenge.
I know this is a LOT more than you bargained for, but silhouette has become my passion.
I got into benchrest and precision accuracy for a few years, and as a result, my offhand shooting skills suffered horribly. About 5-6 Years ago, I started researching methods to practice offhand shooting and some of my friends on RFC steered me towards silhouette and my clutch cable broke during my first match, LOL. I literally shot a score of 3/40, but I was HOOKED.
DrGunner
We have bigbore airgun silhouette league running here. Half size targets 25 to 100m. Takes about 200 fpe for clean knock downs on the rams.