GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: Motorhead on November 09, 2019, 12:43:48 AM
-
Been chasing the ideal caliber in my now obsolete WAR WarP carbine. After playing with the rifle for @ 3 years now in .177 .20 cal. .22 cal. .25 cal in Short, Medium and Long barrels in each caliber, Marauder valves, WAR valves, JSAR SS valves in Gen 1 and Gen 2 as well custom balanced valve, Light to Medium & Heavy hammers, Simple springs, Free flight springs to SSG devices have finally settled on what simply WORKS BEST !!
.22 caliber using a full length 23.5" LW conventional rifled barrel w/ full bore porting to the valve ( .220" )
JSAR SS-2 valve ( Raptor valve actually ) tho using a Custom light weight poppet w/ Custom balance chamber.
Light weight @ 28 gram MDS hammer at near full stroke w/ SSG & Ninja regulator set @ 2200 psi
Accuracy is a mixed bag, being the SPEED with most is just crazy fast. Idea was to get the gun shooting HARD and exhibit very low ES figures over all. having done that here is where we're at currently.
Crosman dome 14.3 grain .... 1220 fps at 47.25 ft/lbs
JSB Exact 15.9 grain .... 1170 fps at 48.32 ft/lbs
Nielsen "slug" 23 grain .... 1020 fps at 53 ft/lbs
Eugin dome 28.5 grain .... 965 fps at 58.7 ft/lbs
H&N Pile driver 30 grain .... 950 fps at 60 ft/lbs
Eugin pointed 32.4 grain .... 885 fps at 56.34 ft/lbs
Having found the power & getting very low ES values across the board it is time now to play with some "More" slugs and see if a marriage can be found with WEIGHT, LENGTH and SPEED where the accuracy gets in balance ???
Like many this SLUG BUG has me playing around with what could be ? With the emerging slug market and some of the pellet manufacturers ramping up to make them the future looks bright for a new age in air guns with "Diablo" pellets being left behind in the higher power level game using pcp's.
While admittedly not using an engineered Slug barrel am likely chasing happen chance results ... thus is the hobby as a privateer.
Scott S
-
Holy Snackbar Scott,
1000+ fps for the top 2 pellets and 1 slug, you flat got them smoking,
now the big question, How is the accuracy? inquiring minds what to know............ ;)
I would believe that the heavyweights would be more accurate?
Do you think that the 20 caliber would be a viable option, if there was a better selection of pellets/slugs in the proper weights?
Thanks,
Don
-
Have you ever tried the 25.4 gr. JSB Redesigned Monsters?.... They should be just around 1000 fps in your gun, and I know for a fact that they can shoot extremely well in the mid 900s, but I have not tried them faster.... I tried the 34 gr. JSB Beasts, and could not get them to shoot well, they spiraled past 50 yards, and won't fit most magazines anyways....
The slug that pops to mind is the NOE 217-30 BBT, which is 29.6 gr. as FN or 27.4 gr. as HP.... Quite a few guys have found the HP version to be deadly accurate (not to mention deadly on varmints).... and you should be in the mid to high 900s with them.... They are reported to shoot well in a choked LW barrel, as well, and they should chamber OK without sizing.... The RG2 & RG4 moulds can make all 3 nose styles, FN, HP or a "cup point" which is in between....
Bob
-
What the future holds is testing with the bottom 4 along with a bunch of differing weight and length slugs and some JSB monsters which i don't currently have any.
I'm ultimately after just finding a Pellet or Slug that will shoot straight & true at this @ power level of @ 55-60 ft/lbs in .22 caliber. Speed ideally @ 900-975 range.
I don't cast so am going to be at the mercy of what is commercially available.
-
What the future holds is testing with the bottom 4 along with a bunch of differing weight and length slugs and some JSB monsters which i don't currently have any.
I'm ultimately after just finding a Pellet or Slug that will shoot straight & true at this @ power level of @ 55-60 ft/lbs in .22 caliber. Speed ideally @ 900-975 range.
I don't cast so am going to be at the mercy of what is commercially available.
Should you decide to change your mind, ive found the tj's 1:14 .224 barrel to be incredibly forgiving. Shoots 38-57gr cast slugs very accurately from70-90fpe.
-
What the future holds is testing with the bottom 4 along with a bunch of differing weight and length slugs and some JSB monsters which i don't currently have any.
I'm ultimately after just finding a Pellet or Slug that will shoot straight & true at this @ power level of @ 55-60 ft/lbs in .22 caliber. Speed ideally @ 900-975 range.
I don't cast so am going to be at the mercy of what is commercially available.
Should you decide to change your mind, ive found the tj's 1:14 .224 barrel to be incredibly forgiving. Shoots 38-57gr cast slugs very accurately from70-90fpe.
Sadly the WarP does not have sufficient plenum volume for that sort of power, and only working with a 3K bottle. Going to higher reg pressure would buy me some power, but not enough shots on what air is left.
In this gun I've already pushed the power / output to the upper limits.
-
Scott , I would get myself some monsters . They are deadly accurate up to 1000 fps in a 1:16 twist barrel . I’ve also tried them as slow as 500 and they do just as well. As Bob mentioned the 217 bbt bullets shoot very well also .
-
Yup the Redesigned Monsters work great at high speeds. I know that NSA is coming out with more slugs also. I ordered some 24.8gr and 23gr to try first in my Raptor Mini. I would assume he would go heavier also.
Gotta say I do miss my WARP :'(
-
You should give jsb 33.89 beasts a go. They actually fit in a prod magazine! I haven’t yet done any valve mods as I didn’t want to take my only grouse gun apart while they are still in season. My only mod right now is a marauder barrel. I’m able to hit a grouse in the head from over 30 yards with a little holdover. I’d love to see what they can do and how accurate with more power. I could send ya some if you don’t want to buy a hole tin.
-
Got a chance to get out for a bit this A.M. and shoot the WarP as set up with the heavy stuff I have on hand.
While the Eugins & Piledrivers where about the right speed range, at the 80 yards I was shooting they were 2" give or take and never settled in much better than that. To be expected there IMO rude and crude projectiles :P
Now the Nielsen 23 flat bases at @ 1020 fps ... SHAZAMMM little lightning bolts that at the 80 yard distance inside 3/4" shot after shot. I'm liking this a lot ! ( The .217" sizing )
Placed an order for the new 23's with dish base and some of the 24.8's last night so further testing is around the corner.
"IF" the new high speed swagged dish base slugs shoot like the older hand done flat bases I'm going to call it quits and shoot it as is !
-
Sounds like a great combination, Scott.... Good slugs will outshoot good pellets at long range, especially in the wind.... Nick makes VERY good slugs.... 8)
Bob
-
Welcome to Bulletville ;D
-
My jkhan has a lothar walther barrel and shoots the bbt 28 hp very well as well as the Nielsen 23, and 27 grain, though I don’t see the 27 on his site now. I have it right in your required range of 55-60 ft lbs and the barrel/bullet combo works well. The first pcp I had was a marauder with a lothar walther barrel and also shot slugs well. The lothar walther seem to take to slugs well. Varmint knockers has a 24 grain that is also really accurate in the jkhan. As a note, expansion on the bbt hp is crazy good also.
-
That's smokin for that barrel length. I've been having great success with 36gr boat tail .218's using a FX Crown. Nearly hole in hole @100yrds. I couldn't get any nsa's to group very well. But others people/guns do. I think I was overpowering them, thus the 36grs.
-
Scott, here is what Hobbyman2007 and I have been testing.
Excellent results!
I have been ordering .22 barrel liners from Brownells Gunsmithing Supplies.
They are the same Dia. as the FX liners. Yes, very thin!
This allows me to wrap them in carbon fiber tubes to bring up the dia. to anything I want. Very stiff this way, and very light.
I am currently shooting one in 1-16 twist for .22 LR weight bullets. (39-40 gr.) that I cast from an NOE mold. This week I will be getting in a 1-20 twist for the custom bullets I cast at 29 grs. Looking very forward to it.
I use the barrel in a factory RS II shroud, and have a DonnyFL Shogun on it. Works very well!
At 35 bucks a barrel, I don't see how you can beat the deal! They come out to 25" or less when preped. I chose 20" for the LR barrel.
The bores are very-very smooth! 8)
Knife 
-
That's smokin for that barrel length. I've been having great success with 36gr boat tail .218's using a FX Crown. Nearly hole in hole @100yrds. I couldn't get any nsa's to group very well. But others people/guns do. I think I was overpowering them, thus the 36grs.
where or which? i cant find that particular 36gr bt you mentioned.
-
Here's a BBT hollow point that I pulled out of a fox squirrel this morning Scott and it was a meager 38fpe from the muzzle,
-
Here's a BBT hollow point that I pulled out of a fox squirrel this morning Scott and it was a meager 38fpe from the muzzle,
Wayne,
Indeed a well expanded slug !
Being I already have many PCP's that can do 30-40 ft/lbs, honestly have no need or desire for a Slow & Loopy trajectory with Heavy lead in this pursuit of a high power .22 caliber. My desire is to have a FASTER and subsequent FLATTER shooting gun in this case. Use will be Wide Open in the wind at times spaces shooting at Ground squirrels that can easily go from 10 feet to 150 yards and beyond. Primarily PESTING and not food gathering.
As mentioned posts above, the WarP does not have a very large plenum and has after 3+ years fiddling shown where it really does best. That being Very fast sips of HPA at a fairly elevated pressures in the .177 or .22 caliber.
While it does shoot pretty well as a .25 cal, shooting as a .22 is just another lever of performance and settled that to be where we're going to keep it.
All great feed back guys .... keep it coming !
Thank you,
Scott S
-
I like what you are doing with this rifle Scott. It will be interesting to see how the Nielsen dish base slugs perform.
-
Awesome project! Don't have any input, just trying to learn and would like to follow along as my disco is close to your power level and looking for ideas about what projectiles to think about trying.
-
That's smokin for that barrel length. I've been having great success with 36gr boat tail .218's using a FX Crown. Nearly hole in hole @100yrds. I couldn't get any nsa's to group very well. But others people/guns do. I think I was overpowering them, thus the 36grs.
where or which? i cant find that particular 36gr bt you mentioned.
They're made by "Griffin" out of Kentucky, I believe. They sell slugs on eBay. Have a massive variety of shapes and diameters.
-
Just received my 2 boxes of Nielsen .22 cal 24.8 dish base hollow points. Nice looking slug !
Tossed a couple in the Warp and shot across the crony .... 975 / 977 fps for a tad under 53 ft lbs power. Where as the 23 flat bases were @ 1020 at 53 ft lbs.
Yea my tune is on the knee all right and more weight is not buying me any added Ft/lbs of energy. ( Both .217 sized )
First chance i can get out ... up go's the 100 yard targets and we'll see soon enough what we have cookin ???
ALSO ... dug around my stash of barrels and found what is likely a 20+ year old 15mm HW .22 blank at @ 25" long ... 6 groove @ 16 1/2" twist with NO choke.
Machined it up today as an alternate to the 12 groove Choked LW currently on the gun. Should prove interesting come testing time being there so different in rifling profile etc ...
Scott
-
Just received my 2 boxes of Nielsen .22 cal 24.8 dish base hollow points. Nice looking slug !
Tossed a couple in the Warp and shot across the crony .... 975 / 977 fps for a tad under 53 ft lbs power. Where as the 23 flat bases were @ 1020 at 53 ft lbs.
Yea my tune is on the knee all right and more weight is not buying me any added Ft/lbs of energy. ( Both .217 sized )
First chance i can get out ... up go's the 100 yard targets and we'll see soon enough what we have cookin ???
ALSO ... dug around my stash of barrels and found what is likely a 20+ year old 15mm HW .22 blank at @ 25" long ... 6 groove @ 16 1/2" twist with NO choke.
Machined it up today as an alternate to the 12 groove Choked LW currently on the gun. Should prove interesting come testing time being there so different in rifling profile etc ...
Scott
I'll be watching to find how our light slugs do in such a tight twist. With the 15 1/2 inch 1-16 twist I got 998-1012 with the 29 gr. slugs. I am fitting a 1 in 20 twist for the light slugs tonight. Probably will go with a 20 to 22 inch barrel this time. The two CF tubes are curing as I type this.
If all goes well, will be testing tomorrow night using a high lume tight thrower light on the gun in order to watch the flight path down range. Really tells the tail. Or if the tail wags. The fairly fresh cast bullet show up like tracers in the scope. With nicks slugs a very light scrape on the base of the bullets should do the same.
Mike
-
Just went out and did some preliminary testing with the Nielsen 24.8 slugs.
80 yards as previous to find my zero, screw around a bit not really going after accuracy ( tho seemed really good ) but more to get a marker of Efficiency at this power.
Those results having shot 31 shots at an average of @ 975 fps off the 500 cc tank it used exactly 400 psi .... efficiency @ 1.29 Ave FPE / Cu in *this being at @ 52.4 ft/lbs energy.
All said numbers crunch@ 40 shots per fill 3000/2200 refill with gun at current settings.
Scott S
-
Scott, too bad it's obsolete!
You could bottle that and sell it.
Hunter
-
Scott, too bad it's obsolete!
You could bottle that and sell it.
Hunter
Naw ... just purchase a JSAR Raptor Mini for similar performance. After all the JSAR RAPTOR platform is in essence a highly evolved WAR with much refinement and that killer balanced valve with side lever cocking.
-
How was the accuracy at those velocities? I like how the rifle came together Scott sounds like you will be enjoying it for a long time. You really got it dialed in. That 2nd gen SS valve sounds really good. Power and efficiency what a combo! Do you think it would do good with a larger caliber as well? I hope you keep us informed on how this gun shoots.
-
Did you do any porting on your Jsar gen 2 valve tp or is it just as came from Jsar? I have a gen 2 valve but am still thinking about a lighter weight gun and haven’t even put all the marauder pieces together yet. Do you think the valve could handle 257?
-
Just went out and did some preliminary testing with the Nielsen 24.8 slugs.
80 yards as previous to find my zero, screw around a bit not really going after accuracy ( tho seemed really good ) but more to get a marker of Efficiency at this power.
Those results having shot 31 shots at an average of @ 975 fps off the 500 cc tank it used exactly 400 psi .... efficiency @ 1.29 Ave FPE / Cu in *this being at @ 52.4 ft/lbs energy.
All said numbers crunch@ 40 shots per fill 3000/2200 refill with gun at current settings.
Scott S
what is your plenum volume?
31 shots is excellent! i bet once you hit 60fpe that shot count gets cut if half.
-
Did you do any porting on your Jsar gen 2 valve tp or is it just as came from Jsar? I have a gen 2 valve but am still thinking about a lighter weight gun and haven’t even put all the marauder pieces together yet. Do you think the valve could handle 257?
As stated in the thread opener ...
JSAR SS-2 valve ( Raptor valve actually ) tho using a Custom light weight poppet w/ Custom balance chamber.
So, the valve is NOT stock. The transfer port itself is also custom being internally TAPERED from the SS valves .280" exit at throat to the transfer ports exit at @ .220"
By AREA within the SS2 valve having a .280" throat, .125" stem it is @ equal in area to .250 I.D. transfer path which would make it @ bore spec for a .257 build.
High Pressure and plenum volume would be required in doing so IMO. My WarP can't do it being it lacks sufficient plenum volume as a regulated set up .. unregged perhaps ???
-
Scott those are some really good base numbers for an “obsolete “ gun . Please post your findings with that HW barrel . I’m really curious to see how it works shooting bullets .
-
Reading the above ... Ok I'll come clean on whats happening accuracy wise. To recap what created the below shown target and series of events as it happened is as follows;
WarP as in OP, FITTED with the @ 24" HW 6 groove barrel with no choke. * 1-16.5 twist best i could measure.
NSA 24.8 bullet at .217 size ( New high speed manufactured version ) shot at @ 975 fps being just sub 53 ft-lbs
Lasered 80 yards to target, wind 2-5 mph and variable. Shot on a tri seat with shooting sticks. 16X magnification.
Started by getting a rough Zero with 21.3 grain Barracudas on another target sitting next to the quadrant. That done loaded a 10 shot mag ( marauder mags used ) and started out ....
BOTTOM RIGHT that is 3 shots stacked, Adjusted scope to the left and up just a tad taking 3 more which hit the BOTTOM LEFT nearly stacking.
That done backed over to the right 1/2 the clicks previous and a few more UP clicks. You can clearly see the GAP strikes up the middle between the Bottom sections. Further Up adjusting on the 9th or 10 shot ( last in Mag ) hit the center spinner which is 3/4" ;D From there a few more UP clicks and loaded another 10 shot mag. All the damage on and flanking the center 3/4" dot is 10 shots more.
Yea the HW 6 groove shoots pretty dang well with the NSA 24.8's at 975 fps. Not to shabby at all ;)
-
You could do what I did and discard the steel tube for an aluminum one that is longer (and lighter!) to give you more plenum. I know it leaves a gap between the regulator block and the front of the frame but I used that gap for a spare magazine holder I added.
Added 20cc to the stock volume and it works great.
Did the same on one of my FLEXs but there I added 2" additional to get 85cc. It's a titanium tube though. Sorry, no picture of the WARP, just the FLEX but you get the idea. The FLEX pictured has a .251 TJ's barrel and set at 3400 PSI shoots 50Gr slugs for 122 FPE (1050 FPS) This FLEX was modified to be a .22LR simulator... or as close as I could come to the 130 FPE of the .22LR.
I also took a short piece of 1" aluminum angle and attached it to the regulator block so one leg rises up between the two gauges and sticks up enough so that if the WARP rests on it's left side its resting on the guard and not the gauges.
-
efficiency @ 1.29 Ave FPE / Cu in *this being at @ 52.4 ft/lbs energy.
That pretty much says it all.... Those are great numbers, Scott, you can be proud of them.... 8)
Bob
-
Leaving the settings where they were … Tried some of the high speed manufactured NSA 23 grain flat bases which were smoken out at @ 1015 fps.
At the same 80 yard distance they were give or take @ 1 1/4" spread. Yea a bit fast but still at closer ranges the impact damage would be likely devastating. ( tad less accurate that the hand swagged slugs )
Going to stay with the 24.8's and will be trying some @ 28 grain NSA's this coming weekend, which should shoot low/mid 900's which speed wise would be still in the sweet spot.
-
Learning a lot from this thread thanks Scott.
-
Been a spell sense updating this thread .... That following weekend did get to shoot nielson slugs heavier than the 24.8's i had been using. NOT AS ACCURATE and not really sure why ??? * this in the 6 groove HW chokeless barrel.
Went back to the 24.8's in .217" and been shooting those all month with IMO very acceptable accuracy. Just yesterday hiked out into the BLM property and set up some odd targets at 75 to 150 yards, sat on my stool and used shooting sticks. Shot @ 40 at these ranges finding when steady could hit the 75 yard target which was @ 1" 10 for 10 proving yea its working pretty dang well. The 150 yard target @ 1 1/2" being far more challenging tho was able to connect @ 3/10 and the misses where scary close.
With my previous noted VIEWING LIGHT around a seated slug using .217's need to get a box of .218's and see if better or worse ??? ( staying with the 24.8 weight )
Scott
-
Scott,
My .22 Prod w/JSAR SS Valve/Mrod barrel & choke removed/double tubed gun would get to max 50fpe with slugs/pellets so I backed off of the hopes of a 60fpe Prod slug idea and just tuned it for high 38fpe range in .177 or .22 cal. Raptor Mini .25 cal slug gun will replace my .25 cal Mini-rod.
Nice job on making a .22 slug gun out of the WarP, they are great little shooters! I have a small stash of NSA 28gr boattails that I bought a while back if you're interested in trying em out to see how they fare in our WarP I can drop em in the mail for you. NSA does make them anymore but if you can show they shot well enough maybe NSA can bring them back for the .22 cal Raptor fans?
Randy
-
Scott, I have found that a little light showing does not hurt performance. In fact, faster than fully in contact. Seems what little blowby there is, it is less effecting fps thanthe higher friction of a slightly larger slug.
I often use a sizer that shows a little light and continue to polish the interior of the die until accuracy is obtained and starts to drop off, then use a second die to give the spec's learned. Even though you do not cast, there is no reason you cannot experiment with sizes at .0001 at a time to find perfection. Unlike pellets, such a tiny difference pays huge dividends.
I have also found that a .22 barrel larger in the bore. such as a TJ's or Redmans in .221 or.222 is faster with a given bullet. This is no doubt due to the larger base area to push on.
I now have the Raptor Mini at 72+ fpe with my hand cast at 38.7 grs. in a low cost Brownell's/Redman liner.
Can't wait to try the TJ's Travis is sourcing for it. ;) I think these guns are going to be World Beaters in the long range match game. 8)
MIke/Knife
-
Had a bit of DUMB LUCK today digging around in my piles of odd WAR / Crosman parts.
Back in December of 2019 when up in Shasta hanging with Travis, he was cleaning shop and had some parts and pieces for me from his years with WAR. They were headed to the trash otherwise.
Had thought and visually had confirmed an air tube was in the pile, SHORT air tube ... WarP air tube, so i now have an extra ( Like I'll ever need another air tube ??? ) tossing it when home into the odd pile of parts already stashed away.
Came across said tube earlier in the day and picked it up ... opened Safe and Picked up the WarP. Well lookee there the tube in hand is longer than the tube on gun ... SCORE it's a FLEX tube being exactly 2" longer at end where drop block threads on. It will fit the Warp chassis no problem !!!
With the WarP currently wearing the 24" HW barrel,Load up a magazine of H&N barracuda 21.4 grainers .... Over the chrony at @ 1040 fps
TAKE GUN APART ... Change nothing but Air tube & reassemble.
Same pellet over the chrony again ... 1130 fps Picked up @ 90 fps and near 8 ft-lbs of energy.
WarP plenum length on the 1.058" I.D. tube is @ 1.100", the FLEX tube adds 2" making the plenum 3.100" long being an almost triple increase !!
Free power ... I'll take it !!
Scott S
-
That's great! I wish I could find extra parts laying around that would give me an extra 90 fps,lol. I bet it would really do well with some heavier lead in there too!
-
That's great! I wish I could find extra parts laying around that would give me an extra 90 fps,lol. I bet it would really do well with some heavier lead in there too!
The pellet was just a quick way to get a baseline on speed before the tube swap. I've been shooting Nielsen 24.8 grain slugs and it shoots those exceptionally well as does the JSB beast 25.4's.
Either they will still shoot good now going even faster ? or I can back power down saving air and getting some extra shots per fill ???
-
I've been thinking of ordering a c/m steel tube and machining it to fit the Mini, with just a little longer length for plenum area.
On the to do list! ;)
Mike
-
I've been thinking of ordering a c/m steel tube and machining it to fit the Mini, with just a little longer length for plenum area.
On the to do list! ;)
Mike
Ya know ... You can put in a Standard RAPTOR tube easy peezy. Your 2 mag / weaver rail won't fit, but if you can purchase the tube, get the 3 mag rail too. ???
-
Yep, I had wondered about the longer picatinny/mag storage rail. The C/M is both for additional plenum space, as well as higher pressure capabilities. I had an o ring let go in the reg, (larger o ring in the base) and the pressure went to full pressure in the plenum. It would be for a safety margin as well as higher pressures for slugs. ;)
Mike