GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: Rallyshark on October 26, 2019, 01:40:43 PM
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I just received one of the new Synthetic Flashpups. This thread will be dedicated to my observations and modding shenanigans. I'll refer to it as the SFP from here on out.
Initial thoughts of the gun are pretty good, better than I expected even. The fit and finish is better than that of my standard Flash. All of the machining is quite good. I don't know if they tried harder, because it is a new gun or what? It is a little heavier than the wood Flashpup(WFP), and I'll discuss why further down. Still, it is a couple of pounds lighter than the Bullboss. I knew they were only 32" long, but didn't appreciate that length, until I got it in my hands and shouldered it. I was also concerned about the front mounting point of the scope rail, given the plastic support structure at the front. I wiggled and yanked, but it seems quite solid. I don't think that is going to be an issue at this point.
There are some significant differences between the SFP and the WFP/standard Flash. If you look at the SFP pictures compared to those of the WFP, you'll notice there are some differences, other than just the synthetic stock. I didn't catch it at first, but there is more to the cylinder than meets the eye. Turns out there is a reason they changed to a steel cylinder. The steel cylinder is over 2" shorter than the aluminum on the WFP/Flash. It would seem the steel cylinder's thinner wall requirements allowed the cylinder to be shorter and keep the same volume. Also, the front end of the synthetic stock is closed off and covers the end of the cylinder. Whereas, the WFP stock is open on the front. The SFP has a nice little machined aluminum dust plug for the fill port too. We now know where the majority of that extra weight is coming from! This brings up another thought on regulation. I'm going to shoot Huub at Huma an email to let him know that the interior dimensions of the SFP are likely different than those of the WFP/Flash. That should save him and us some trouble down the road, should anyone choose to regulate it. As most of you know, regulation on these guns is really only needed for higher shot count low-mid power tunes. They do quite well without being regulated.
The stock on the SFP is a plus in my book. The shorter curved fore section seems to work quite well when brought to the shoulder. It is just fits, and makes for a secure firm hold, despite the shortish length of pull. The other significant bonus of this stock is the butt pad adjustments. You can adjust the angle and height of the butt pad. That allows more customization for the shooter to get a more natural sight picture when shouldered. I think the rear bolt will be one thing that will take some getting used to on my part. Others don't seem to mind it, so I expect I'll adapt too. One thing I don't see, is a way to modify the stock for HS adjustments without removing the stock. I may try and come up with a solution to that later, but I don't see any obvious solutions currently.
The bolt on the SFP is also different from that of the WFP/Flash. Although, I suspect it is the same as the wood Flash. The other versions have an allen screw holding the bolt handle through the end of it. The bolt on the SFP is held on with an allen coming in from the other side of the probe assembly. This is vital info, for when you want to take it apart to remove all the bits from the breech assembly. Hatsan has made a hole on the left side of the breech for accessing that screw. That hole is covered with a flush fitting flathead screw/cap. That cap is loctited in, so make sure you have a well fitting flathead and a strong grip when removing it! One of the best features of the Flash series is easy disassembly. All you have to do is knock out the pins holding the trigger, remove the threaded plug on the rear(don't forget the little grub screw that locks it in place), remove the bolt, and all the parts slide easily out the rear of the breech assembly.
Out of the box, the HS is adjusted for a pretty good standard tune. I shot a string straight out of the box, which resulted in a pretty good 25-30 shot 32-ish fpe tune with a good curve. This gun would give you that from 2800psi fill.
Next up, I'll be doing the standard Flash modifications to see what we can get out of this little guy. They will include:
-cleaning out the that lubricating goop, and replacing with something less like sludge
-polishing all the moving parts in the breech
-adjusting the trigger pull
-opening up the barrel port
-opening up the transfer
-opening up the valve exit hole
-opening up the valve seat with a PEEK replacement
-cleaning/de-burring/slight opening of valve spring retainer
That's it for now, but stay tuned as the progress continues!
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Thanks for the first impressions Donny! My boss' SFP should be here Monday, so I'll see if it's machined as nicely.
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Thanks for the first impressions Donny! My boss' SFP should be here Monday, so I'll see if it's machined as nicely.
Yes, that will be interesting to know if Hatsan has upped their QC, or mine is a fluke,lol!
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I hope they have! I honestly love my .177 Flash as much as some guns I've had that cost over $500. I think it's hands down the best value in the budget market [if] you want a light, powerful hunter.
If Hatsan has upped the quality, that's making it an even better value.
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HAve tried my best by way of just adjsting what was provided as adjustable (the "stuff" have built in screws for).
slower speeds/energy.....but a good number of shots for suich a small unregulated PCP of this air volume.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48311100247_5d314168b1_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gB61Yg)DSCN2070 (https://flic.kr/p/2gB61Yg) by Robert Dean (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144930793@N07/), on Flickr
Honestly, do NOT KNOW why I tried. HAve two mags. to get any real world use out of the above when hunting,I'd really need 3 oir 4 mags.
Ao I'm consdiering the use of the "puppy"and the shot count vs.mag.;count...and it'slikely the shot energy per shot will go up...shot count will go down..and the "good"shots per fill balances with the4 two mags (24 shots) that came with the rifle.
Know that's a kind of ackwasswardfs" way of tuning..... been in this game for a long time,and it seems reasonable to me to match the "good" shot count to mag.fills with a repeater.
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I followed you on flickr Ribbonstone (rallyshark). There's nothing at all wrong with those numbers! I hope I'll be able to apply the same numbers I got with my regular Flash to the SFP. As to the two mags worth, I was able to get some pretty surprising numbers out of my regular Flash in .22 after some modifications. The biggest parts of were the PEEK valve seat and porting. I managed a 24 shot tune at 41fpe with the 25.39s with 1.44 efficiency. I even got a 10 shot 55 fpe tune out of it with the 33.95 Beasts with 1.4 efficiency :o All those were within 4% as well :D
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LEts give a resounding "boo" to the PCP's that come with only one mag(cehap b-targs no matter what the cost of the rifle)..
LEts give an "OK" to the ones that come with two,,,and a thumbs up to the ones that come with two totally more than 20 shots.
I can live with two10 or 12 shot mags. One for half a "loop" out from the Jeep and the other for the half a loop back in towards the Jeep. Might be smaller loops than if I had 4 mags and a shot count to match, but it's totally livable even when you get side tracked by the occasional cow-pie-splattering.
(although to be honest....it's super rare for me to get more than 8-12 shots on critters in a single "loop").
At the bench/static shooting,doesn't really make a difference. But so far, having the right number of shots in pre-loaded magazines has made things easy.
So with the Flashpup…and refusing to buy a 3rd or 4th mag...pretty well settled on a good run of 24-25 shots (two mags)…..at whatever energy level I can get that number of shots.
One mag looping "out" and one mag "in".
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Sounds like you got your "system" down pat there! That is what it is all about though, getting the gun tuned specifically for your needs. I'm a tinkerer and can't leave a stock gun alone,lol. I'm always thinking about how I can make it better, and I like to see what each gun is capable of on the extreme end of things. After that, I'll tune it for it's intended purpose ;)
Speaking of tinkering... I got some of the work done on the new SFP! I got the PEEK seat made, and I took it as far as safely possible with an opening of .213. I got the barrel/transfer ports done to .185-ish. I did the valve exit hole up to .2 to account for any slight alignment issues with the transfer. I haven't decided if I'm going to try a different hammer spring yet. I got all of the hard stuff out of the way. All I have left is to clean and lightly polish the barrel(which is one of the best machined Hatsan barrels I've ever had). The rest will just be down to cleaning, lubing, adjusting, and then assembly. I should be able to get some numbers from the chrony by tomorrow, and we'll know what the little thumper is capable of.
Oh, and a side note, it appears they have also changed the hammer design on this gun too. There are some notches and cuts that are absent from this hammer compared to my regular Flash. I believe the anti-knock/de-bounce catches on the bolt rod are different, which is the reason for the slight hammer change. More to come!
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Remember Donny when we first got our refurb flashes and I made the peek seat with your guidance I was able to squeeze out 65fpe from my 25 cal flash with 34 gr pellets for one mag if I remember correctly. I currently have it tuned to 40fpe for 32 shots and its a nice lightweight hammer for walking the woods and deadly out to 50 yards with zero holdovers.
BD
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Remember Donny when we first got our refurb flashes and I made the peek seat with your guidance I was able to squeeze out 65fpe from my 25 cal flash with 34 gr pellets for one mag if I remember correctly. I currently have it tuned to 40fpe for 32 shots and its a nice lightweight hammer for walking the woods and deadly out to 50 yards with zero holdovers.
BD
That's awesome. I have some peek but no Flash that needs that sort of power.
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Remember Donny when we first got our refurb flashes and I made the peek seat with your guidance I was able to squeeze out 65fpe from my 25 cal flash with 34 gr pellets for one mag if I remember correctly. I currently have it tuned to 40fpe for 32 shots and its a nice lightweight hammer for walking the woods and deadly out to 50 yards with zero holdovers.
BD
Yep, I do remember! We were kind of doing the mods in comparison between the .22 and .25, so the power and numbers were good apple to apple with two different calibers. That was good stuff, and it amazes me still what we were able to get out of these inexpensive little guns. I expect the SFP will be along the same lines, but there are some subtle differences, so the results could be a little different. I don't have any 33.95 Beasts, so the power testing will happen the Monsters instead.
Chris, that enlarged PEEK valve seat will help with more than just power. The larger opening will close faster, and it will require less HS to crack the valve(due to the hardness of the PEEK). It can benefit all tunes IMO ;)
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Remember Donny when we first got our refurb flashes and I made the peek seat with your guidance I was able to squeeze out 65fpe from my 25 cal flash with 34 gr pellets for one mag if I remember correctly. I currently have it tuned to 40fpe for 32 shots and its a nice lightweight hammer for walking the woods and deadly out to 50 yards with zero holdovers.
BD
Yep, I do remember! We were kind of doing the mods in comparison between the .22 and .25, so the power and numbers were good apple to apple with two different calibers. That was good stuff, and it amazes me still what we were able to get out of these inexpensive little guns. I expect the SFP will be along the same lines, but there are some subtle differences, so the results could be a little different. I don't have any 33.95 Beasts, so the power testing will happen the Monsters instead.
Chris, that enlarged PEEK valve seat will help with more than just power. The larger opening will close faster, and it will require less HS to crack the valve(due to the hardness of the PEEK). It can benefit all tunes IMO ;)
Hmmm, I might try one in my .177 12 fpe regulated tune.
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Yep I really enjoyed that exercise in seeing just how much could be achieved with very little work. I cannot complain at all for a 150 dollar gun. Its even more accurate than I will ever be, my bad heart and COPD keep me from being as steady as needed for best groupings. Still under 3/4" at 50 yards bench rested is acceptable for me. Just learn to shoot between the heart beats and labored breathing. LOL
BD
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Chris, if you do that, combined with all of the other stuff on a 12fpe tune... Well, let's just say your shot count should be pretty insane and QUIET! If you took it a wee bit further and opened up the porting a bit too, you'd be able to run an even lower reg set point. I think a shot count exceeding 60-70 shots is doable :D
BD, I understand doing the best we can. The last couple of years have seen my eye sight take a bit of a dive. That is why I moved away from my SWFA SS fixed 10X scope and moved up to the Falcon 3-18X scopes. I took everything as far as I could on the SFP, so it should do pretty well. The biggest limiting factors on these guns is fill pressure and barrel length. Still, considering the 17.75" barrel, we don't have anything to complain about!
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Chris, if you do that, combined with all of the other stuff on a 12fpe tune... Well, let's just say your shot count should be pretty insane and QUIET! If you took it a wee bit further and opened up the porting a bit too, you'd be able to run an even lower reg set point. I think a shot count exceeding 60-70 shots is doable :D
BD, I understand doing the best we can. The last couple of years have seen my eye sight take a bit of a dive. That is why I moved away from my SWFA SS fixed 10X scope and moved up to the Falcon 3-18X scopes. I took everything as far as I could on the SFP, so it should do pretty well. The biggest limiting factors on these guns is fill pressure and barrel length. Still, considering the 17.75" barrel, we don't have anything to complain about!
I am already getting 81 shots at 12 fpe , just by playing with the hammer spring. We'll see what happens with Knifemaker's hammer mods and the rest.
You still got the SWFA 10x? Is it matching reticle and turrets? Those are my favorite scopes.
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Chris, if you do that, combined with all of the other stuff on a 12fpe tune... Well, let's just say your shot count should be pretty insane and QUIET! If you took it a wee bit further and opened up the porting a bit too, you'd be able to run an even lower reg set point. I think a shot count exceeding 60-70 shots is doable :D
BD, I understand doing the best we can. The last couple of years have seen my eye sight take a bit of a dive. That is why I moved away from my SWFA SS fixed 10X scope and moved up to the Falcon 3-18X scopes. I took everything as far as I could on the SFP, so it should do pretty well. The biggest limiting factors on these guns is fill pressure and barrel length. Still, considering the 17.75" barrel, we don't have anything to complain about!
Donny
I fully understand the eye sight and aging since I have been nearsighted all my life needing glasses to see far away. Then in 08 I was diagnosed with cataracts and had the surgery where they pulverize the lens under the cornea and replace it with a new contact type lens so I went from being 20-220 vision to 20-20 vision and far sighted. So instead of wearing glasses to see far away I now need them to see close up which took some getting used to but am much happier with not having to wear glasses the majority of the time versus now only to work on up close items. Now they have progressive lens that give you the best of both close and far vision. Unfortunately I have been diagnosed with type II diabetes now so in the past year or so I have noticed my vision is not as crisp as it has been since 08 after the cataract surgery but still far better than before it. I am still far better off vision wise than I was for the majority of my life so nothing to complain about on my end.
BD
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My insurance requires me to pay an extra $4000 per eye for the progressive lens.
OUCH!
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Chris, if you do that, combined with all of the other stuff on a 12fpe tune... Well, let's just say your shot count should be pretty insane and QUIET! If you took it a wee bit further and opened up the porting a bit too, you'd be able to run an even lower reg set point. I think a shot count exceeding 60-70 shots is doable :D
BD, I understand doing the best we can. The last couple of years have seen my eye sight take a bit of a dive. That is why I moved away from my SWFA SS fixed 10X scope and moved up to the Falcon 3-18X scopes. I took everything as far as I could on the SFP, so it should do pretty well. The biggest limiting factors on these guns is fill pressure and barrel length. Still, considering the 17.75" barrel, we don't have anything to complain about!
I am already getting 81 shots at 12 fpe , just by playing with the hammer spring. We'll see what happens with Knifemaker's hammer mods and the rest.
You still got the SWFA 10x? Is it matching reticle and turrets? Those are my favorite scopes.
Hahaha, that's nuts, nice job! Might as well shoot for 90 now :D
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Oh good grief. The darn thing is on sale at AGD with at 21% off coupon (of1901)... $276 bucks!
Must.
Resist.
Purchasing.
Repeat after me... I already have a flash and a used at44.
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Oh good grief. The darn thing is on sale at AGD with at 21% off coupon (of1901)... $276 bucks!
Must.
Resist.
Purchasing.
Repeat after me... I already have a flash and a used at44.
I think that is a pretty hard deal to pass up! I say buy it, especially now that I've gotten this one back together and ran it over the chrony. Oh wait, I'm not helping, hahaha!
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I think that is a pretty hard deal to pass up! I say buy it, especially now that I've gotten this one back together and ran it over the chrony. Oh wait, I'm not helping, hahaha!
Care to share said chrony numbers? ;D
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Okay folks, I got the .22 SFP back together and was able to run a few over the chrony. It looks like I picked up a little bit over the regular .22 Flash I did previously. The high previously was 992. With the new SFP .22 I was able to get up to 1006fps with the 25.39s 8) If that same difference carries over to the 33.95 Beasts, that would put this new gun around 62-63 fpe tops. Not bad at all! I didn't really run any full strings over the chrony, just played around with the HS to get it at a lower power level for testing pellets in the next week or so. It is behaving exactly as the the regular Flash did, so I think the strings should be near identical. In other words, it can do a 10 shot 55fpe tune, a 24 shot 41fpe tune, and probably a 30-35 shot 30 fpe tune with a decent ES. All good numbers for a $350 dollar pup, especially since I paid $320 for mine with a discount code from PA :D With a better discount codes, it is a no brainer I think.
I can say the gun is backyard friendly at the 40 fpe level with just the QE. A lot of that comes down to the gun being tuned well and not wasting air. With a Huggett Belita on top of the QE, it is most definitely back yard friendly, even at 55 fpe. I have a Huma LDC on the way for some testing later though. I got the Mod40 Standard+ one, so that will give me a lot of flexibility with the LDC length and tuning!
I slapped the Falcon on top of it after the quick chrony round, and she lines up pretty good. If the accuracy is there, this will be a great little hunter. It don't look all that bad either ;)
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Nope, you're not helping at all! I'll try to adult-up here and force myself to part with one 'cuz the gun safe happens to be full.
(Hmm, is that why my darling wife wanted me to get the safe?!?!?!)
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Nope, you're not helping at all! I'll try to adult-up here and force myself to part with one 'cuz the gun safe happens to be full.
(Hmm, is that why my darling wife wanted me to get the safe?!?!?!)
Hahahaha :D
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Oh man, that looks awesome. Can't wait to tear into my boss's tomorrow.
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Oh man, that looks awesome. Can't wait to tear into my boss's tomorrow.
Is your boss gonna put a regulator in it? If he's wanting a low power tune, without a reg, he'll need to run it on a low fill tune. On the bright side, all you'll really need to do is clean and lube it, pull the spacer and back that hammer spring down ;) Hopefully, his will be well machined too.
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Dadgum Donny with numbers like that there is no need for a 25 cal flash. You are right at the max power I got out of my 25 cal flash for sure. If I remember right it was pushing the 33.95s at roughly 935fps so you should be real close for sure. The 25grs at 1006 is screaming for sure.
Great job
BD
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I can't say I'll be buying a FP any time soon (unless I can get it for a steal of a deal), but it's good to know that the power levels are respectable.
A wood Flash, though...now that may be something that's more down my alley. And if I can get it to be right around the 60FPE range, then I might just give it a shot.
Great work, Donny!
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I can't say I'll be buying a FP any time soon (unless I can get it for a steal of a deal), but it's good to know that the power levels are respectable.
A wood Flash, though...now that may be something that's more down my alley. And if I can get it to be right around the 60FPE range, then I might just give it a shot.
Great work, Donny!
Donny already modded his 22 flash to 60fpe. i am interested in bottling this flash since it has a steel cylinder. give us some 50 yard prints please. try some slugs too
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Quick question for you... How would you compare the Flashpup's trigger to the normal Flash's trigger? I assume the extra linkage would impact how good it feels.
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Oh man, that looks awesome. Can't wait to tear into my boss's tomorrow.
Is your boss gonna put a regulator in it? If he's wanting a low power tune, without a reg, he'll need to run it on a low fill tune. On the bright side, all you'll really need to do is clean and lube it, pull the spacer and back that hammer spring down ;) Hopefully, his will be well machined too.
We're going to regulate it. Basically, all the stuff I'm doing to my .177 is a test bed for his.
I can't say I'll be buying a FP any time soon (unless I can get it for a steal of a deal), but it's good to know that the power levels are respectable.
A wood Flash, though...now that may be something that's more down my alley. And if I can get it to be right around the 60FPE range, then I might just give it a shot.
Great work, Donny!
Donny already modded his 22 flash to 60fpe. i am interested in bottling this flash since it has a steel cylinder. give us some 50 yard prints please. try some slugs too
I don't have any 50 yard groups, but both my .177 and .25 will shoot 1/4" @ 33 yards with pellets. The .25 shot slugs into 1/2"-3/4" groups at that same range.
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that stock looks like it i begging fo a bottle! ;)
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that stock looks like it i begging fo a bottle! ;)
I was thinking the same, tight little 350ml, no reg, wide open in .25 for some thunder.
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Dadgum Donny with numbers like that there is no need for a 25 cal flash. You are right at the max power I got out of my 25 cal flash for sure. If I remember right it was pushing the 33.95s at roughly 935fps so you should be real close for sure. The 25grs at 1006 is screaming for sure.
Great job
BD
It is a little thumper for sure :D I can't say I'll be buying a FP any time soon (unless I can get it for a steal of a deal), but it's good to know that the power levels are respectable.
A wood Flash, though...now that may be something that's more down my alley. And if I can get it to be right around the 60FPE range, then I might just give it a shot.
Great work, Donny!
Donny already modded his 22 flash to 60fpe. i am interested in bottling this flash since it has a steel cylinder. give us some 50 yard prints please. try some slugs too
that stock looks like it i begging fo a bottle! ;)
I was thinking the same, tight little 350ml, no reg, wide open in .25 for some thunder.
It would take something like the short tube/drop block setup on the Airmax. If you did try it, I would order a regular Flash aluminum cylinder to do it with.
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It would take something like the short tube/drop block setup on the Airmax. If you did try it, I would order a regular Flash aluminum cylinder to do it with.
... but I already have a new carbon 350ml bottle and some extra space in the lathes chip tray...
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Matt, the trigger isn't that bad, and the linkage is has only two pivot points with no flex to it. It isn't quite as good as the standard Flash trigger, but it certainly isn't bad either. It is fully adjustable like all the others, so you can certainly get it in the ballpark anyway. It doesn't bother me at all, after I adjusted the pull down. I didn't touch the other screws, just the pull weight.
Chris, I hope you ordered the reg for the "Flash S", and not the regular Flash/Flashpup, because they are different due to the ID of the steel cylinder. It will be super easy to get that one tuned I think. Let us know how the machining is on your boss's when you get it apart. I'm curious about that. It is going to be raining the next few days here, so I won't be able to get on any targets for a few days, but the barrel is this one is the best machined Hatsan barrel I've seen.
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It would take something like the short tube/drop block setup on the Airmax. If you did try it, I would order a regular Flash aluminum cylinder to do it with.
... but I already have a new carbon 350ml bottle and some extra space in the lathes chip tray...
Where there's a will there's a way ;)
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Matt, the trigger isn't that bad, and the linkage is has only two pivot points with no flex to it. It isn't quite as good as the standard Flash trigger, but it certainly isn't bad either. It is fully adjustable like all the others, so you can certainly get it in the ballpark anyway. It doesn't bother me at all, after I adjusted the pull down. I didn't touch the other screws, just the pull weight.
Chris, I hope you ordered the reg for the "Flash S", and not the regular Flash/Flashpup, because they are different due to the ID of the steel cylinder. It will be super easy to get that one tuned I think. Let us know how the machining is on your boss's when you get it apart. I'm curious about that. It is going to be raining the next few days here, so I won't be able to get on any targets for a few days, but the barrel is this one is the best machined Hatsan barrel I've seen.
We haven't ordered the reg yet, but thank you for the reminder. I knew they weren't the same size, but I'm sure I would've forgotten. I didn't have a chance to tear into my boss's gun today, but I will tomorrow.
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Cool 8) I spoke to Huub at Huma, and he informed me that he was already on top of it. They are listed under "Flashpup S" on Huma's site.
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Cool 8) I spoke to Huub at Huma, and he informed me that he was already on top of it. They are listed under "Flashpup S" on Huma's site.
Right on. Wonder if they'll get any sent over to Trenier.
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They probably will after more SFPs are out in the wild, but I don't know how soon that'll be. You're probably better off just getting it from Huma right now. You could call or email Trenier and ask though.
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They probably will after more SFPs are out in the wild, but I don't know how soon that'll be. You're probably better off just getting it from Huma right now. You could call or email Trenier and ask though.
I'll give them a call in the morning and report back.
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So, I got my boss's synpup apart. Everything looks good, except that the cocking is super freaking rough. Like, disappointingly rough. I'm not sure what's going on.
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My Flash was like that. The hammer spring was so tight that it was very difficult to cock it. I pulled the hammer, cleaned it and reassembled it. I just lightened the hammer spring until it felt about right. The result was a nice shot string curve.
Hunter
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My Flash was like that. The hammer spring was so tight that it was very difficult to cock it. I pulled the hammer, cleaned it and reassembled it. I just lightened the hammer spring until it felt about right. The result was a nice shot string curve.
Hunter
Yeah, I've already pulled the HS spacer out and done 3 turns on the hammer spring. It's shooting right around 15 fpe, so I know that the HS isn't causing it. It's like the bolt handle is binding in its track.
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I would check out the little insert that the probe goes through on the breech. I suspect that is the root of your evil, because the probe isn't brass on the SFP, so you've got steel on steel happening there. It is held in by one grub screw. I would make sure that little guy is good and polished. I don't really see a need to polish the probe, but I suppose it wouldn't hurt. Other than that, clean and lube should take care of it.
Actually, I wonder how that little piece would do, if it were made of PEEK? Hmmmmm...
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Speaking of PEEK...
Made PEEK valve seal @ 0.187", and PEEK hammer face insert. Reduced hammer mass by 5%, removed the clack sound spike and flattened the shot string. I also replaced the spring with a slightly thicker wire and longer.
So its at my goal with 24 shots (2 mags) using .22 JSBs 18.1 gr @ 919 FPS average 34FPE.
2.6% spread with no regulator (23 shots under2%). ;D
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Nice job Thane, that is a solid low spread tune tight there! I'm sure the PEEK valve seat and insert helped quieten down the shot cycle very well. The valve seat probably requires less hammer strike to open(less noise), and the insert takes away the metal on metal when the hammer hits the valve(less noise). I like it!
Chris's problem with the rough loading has got me wanting to see if I have enough PEEK left to replace that insert that the probe goes through. What I really want to do, is to come up with a modification to the HS adjustment process. It is just a PITA having to remove the stock to do that, if I want to change tunes. I have some ideas on that, I just need to get at trying to implement them...
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... What I really want to do, is to come up with a modification to the HS adjustment process. It is just a PITA having to remove the stock to do that, if I want to change tunes. I have some ideas on that, I just need to get at trying to implement them...
... and very tempting to operate out of stock, which is particularly bad with the trigger rod exposed. Ask my chrono...
I drilled a hole in rear stock, and opened rear bolt path by 1/4" to uncover hammer set screw. Easy access with a long 4mm now, way better. It is also easy to check the spring/valve gap, it's visible and simple to move back and forward.
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... What I really want to do, is to come up with a modification to the HS adjustment process. It is just a PITA having to remove the stock to do that, if I want to change tunes. I have some ideas on that, I just need to get at trying to implement them...
... and very tempting to operate out of stock, which is particularly bad with the trigger rod exposed. Ask my chrono...
I drilled a hole in rear stock, and opened rear bolt path by 1/4" to uncover hammer set screw. Easy access with a long 4mm now, way better. It is also easy to check the spring/valve gap, it's visible and simple to move back and forward.
That is exactly how I would have done it with a regular Flashpup, BUT the Sythetic Flashpup has the adjustable butt pad for height and offset, so that complicates that thought process :( My thought is along the lines of adjusting the depth the spring sits in the rear plug of the breech, or even adjusting that plug itself. Either way, there will be some stock modifying that will have to happen. That is kind of what I did with my Bullboss, and I can adjust the HS on it with just a flat head screwdriver, or my pocket knife even,lol.
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I received my syn pup yesterday. I didnt have much time to mess with it but overall I like it except for the ping and valve noise right to the ear when shooting. It's pretty loud for a qe. I'd love a tune as Thane has produced but im not skilled with airgun smithing. I think I'll have to just keep it stock and/or add a regulator for consistency. Maybe someone can come up with a bolt on kit to get the power and consistency that you all have gained.
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I received my syn pup yesterday. I didnt have much time to mess with it but overall I like it except for the ping and valve noise right to the ear when shooting. It's pretty loud for a qe. I'd love a tune as Thane has produced but im not skilled with airgun smithing. I think I'll have to just keep it stock and/or add a regulator for consistency. Maybe someone can come up with a bolt on kit to get the power and consistency that you all have gained.
I regulator will definitely help with the ping. They are pretty consistent without a reg though. You just have to find out what pressures the gun shoots the best string with on a given tune. You can't bolt on more power, because that gain comes from opening up the porting and valve. People making any after market parts for Hatsans are few and far between. The biggest benefit of the Hatsans is the ability to modify them without having to purchase after market parts. You can also put a bottle brush or something like that in the cylinder to absorb the vibration and lessen the ping, but I've never been a big fan of that myself. They are still pretty good little guns for the $$, either way you look at it :)
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I just shot it enough to break in, adjusted the trigger, and experimented with the settings.
It pretty well behaved like any non-reg PCP....and pretty much how I play with any non-regged PCP.
1. Cranked the spring up to see what the most the standard guts could produce. Shot count was real poor (started fast and declined rapidly...cocking was quite stiff....which is typical for any non-reged PCP). In a shot graph,looking for the 4% shots, this basically was a downward graph from the middle of the plateau on down.
Which can be a useful setting if you really need/want max. stock parts power and can live with a short shot string. I'd hunt with it when I expect just one or two particualr larger critters to be on the agenda (make a good opossum killer).
If you wanted even more power (and evidently that is an attraction with Flashpups),would look at some changes/mods to the "guts"as you've already found the most to get from the issue parts.
LArger/smoother air path from tank to pellet base would be the way to go (wihting pressure design limits). Better air flow around the valve stem and larger and smoother passage to the pellet. The good shot count will fall, but the total energy will be about the same (in that 42 foot pounds X 20 shots is about the same enery as 55 foot pounds X 15 shots).
2. Tried backing the spring tension way out, and like any non-regPCP,it shot a whole lot slower and started to increase in velocity as the pressure droped. BAsically, this was a long up-slope on a shot graph to a nice little pateau, then the fall off.
Would make a useful lower pressure tune (why fill it all the way up with the best shots are down around 2200-1300PSI?) for target shooting, plinking, or hunting small critters.
If that's not enough low power shots, will have to do some mods.
Simple (although it doesn't really help efficiency all that much) would be to strangle off the air passage. The full monty would be harder: making the valve dwell faster (lighter striker most likely), leave the passageways open, and accept harder cocking.
3. Fiddled a few more times, looking for something in the middle that started at a velocity that was at least useful, peaked, and fell over a longer useful shot count.
Which (after 5 or 6 little fiddle adjustments) turned out to be in the 28-32foot pound range, which suits my uses....but likely not most folks.
And yes, the little amounts of adjusting (nudges more than changes) do make a difference...also don't know exactly why (but a suspsicion it's about harmonic/sync. of motion.)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48311100247_5d314168b1_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gB61Yg)DSCN2070 (https://flic.kr/p/2gB61Yg) by Robert Dean (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144930793@N07/), on Flickr
At which point (back in July) I left it alone and won't been back inside until something leaks, breaks, or changes (and sooner or later it will...it's the nature of PCP's).
I DO HATE THE FLASHPUP DESIGN for this kind of fiddling around. Normally, I'd not bother to put the metal back in the stock for the above kind of testing. But that long transfer bar between the trigger blade and the trigger unit is just begging for a slight slip and an accidental discharge.
External adjustment would be a good thing (for any PCP)...esp, for this one.
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I'm working on that adjustment part when I get some time, so stay tuned on that front!
Now, onto some other stuff... I got a chance to shoot some targets finally, and it turns out my SFP's favorite ammo are the JSB Monster Redesigned, and the H&N Barracuda Power(copper plated). I was shooting pieces of gravel off a gate at 88 yards no problem, and was tagging cans at 120 yards pretty easily as well :D I haven't touched the barrel, other than the transfer port. I'm going to do some polishing on it, to see if I can get it to agree with some other ammo.
The bigger news is HUMA LDCs! I don't know why more folks aren't talking about them?! I got a Standard+ in the MOD40, and WOW! After all was said and done, it was only about $140(we don't get charged VAT) to my door, which ain't bad for what you get. I got the the .25 version, just to be sure to avoid any clipping issues. Here's the Link for the one I got:
https://www.huma-air.com/Modular-Moderator-MOD40-4/1-(Standard)-SALE (https://www.huma-air.com/Modular-Moderator-MOD40-4/1-(Standard)-SALE)
All testing was done with the gun shooting 38 fpe. The base piece which threads onto the barrel has the kevlar insulation, and the 40mm sections do too. The 20mm section has no insulation. The insulation can be removed to give more air space as well. In the "mini" configuration, which is the base piece, with one 40mm section and one 20mm section it is quieter than the QE. With the short configuration and no QE, the SFP is only 29.5" long, and still backyard friendly. That makes that gun really short for wandering through the bush. With the longest configuration(base piece, three 40mm sections, one 20mm section), the gun is still only 33.75" long, and insanely quiet. Me being the constant tinkerer, I love the fact that you can configure these anyway you like for your guns. Here's a couple of pictures with the shorter and longer variations. Sorry for the quality, it was dark and I took them with my phone. The gun will look much better when I sleeve that barrel with CF too.
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I'm going to do some polishing on it, to see if I can get it to agree with some other ammo.
Donny, if I had a rifle that shot that well, I wouldn't touch a thing.
Hunter
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I have this disease, where I can't leave anything alone,lol! No, in all honesty though, I can't get it to shoot any of my HP pellets well. Since my primary use for my airguns is hunting, an airgun that won't shoot any type of HP well is useless to me. I'm not going to do anything crazy to the barrel though. I'm just going to give a decent polish, and maybe a bit more so at the choke. I've had good luck doing that in the past. If that doesn't work, then I guess I have an excuse to put a longer barrel on it, hahaha!
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Donny, how does that moderator attach to the pup?
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Donny, how does that moderator attach to the pup?
You remove the stock QE shroud by unscrewing it, then the LDC attaches via the now-exposed 1/2-20 threads.
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Picked up an SFP in .25 and it does not disappoint. With only a bore cleaning it pushed 21 shots @ 37FPE under 4% ES (center 16 @2%). Made 4-5 shot groups all under 1/4" center to center, no flyers.
So with 50 rounds on the odometer I'm thinking about cutting it up a bit, borrowed Donny's photo and doing some blocking out for feasibility. 0.35L bottle with reg will need some clearancing, but will add some juice.
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Picked up an SFP in .25 and it does not disappoint. With only a bore cleaning it pushed 21 shots @ 37FPE under 4% ES (center 16 @2%). Made 4-5 shot groups all under 1/4" center to center, no flyers.
So with 50 rounds on the odometer I'm thinking about cutting it up a bit, borrowed Donny's photo and doing some blocking out for feasibility. 0.35L bottle with reg will need some clearancing, but will add some juice.
That's great that you got a good shooter 8) The bottle design sure would be sweet if you were able to do it! I'm pretty sure you'll have to add a drop block of some sort to a shortened section of the tube to make it work. You may have to get a custom tube section made, IF you want to be able to operate at the bottle's pressure. The valve can handle 250 bar, but I'm not so sure about that factory air cylinder material being able to handle 250 bar. Of course, That wouldn't be as much of an issue if you regulated it at the bottle, and used the shortened section of tube as the plenum. That would be an awesome little gun ;)
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Donny, how does that moderator attach to the pup?
You remove the stock QE shroud by unscrewing it, then the LDC attaches via the now-exposed 1/2-20 threads.
Yep! The factory barrels are already threaded 1/2-20, so easy peasy .
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Donny, how does that moderator attach to the pup?
You remove the stock QE shroud by unscrewing it, then the LDC attaches via the now-exposed 1/2-20 threads.
Yep! The factory barrels are already threaded 1/2-20, so easy peasy .
Well dang, learn something new every day on this site. Thanks to both of you.
I just ordered a DonnyFL Sumo to try on the Pup.
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In .22 the factory QE moderator does fairly good up through 34FPE.
In .25 not so much, just shot a string @ 52FPE and my ears are still ringing.
Seeing the segmented Huma moderator on Donny's rig has me envious.
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In .22 the factory QE moderator does fairly good up through 34FPE.
In .25 not so much, just shot a string @ 52FPE and my ears are still ringing.
Seeing the segmented Huma moderator on Donny's rig has me envious.
It will look more at home after sleeve the barrel with CF! I'm just trying to decide, if I want to re-barrel it or not first. I can't get any of my many different HP ammo to work well in it. It does great with some of the non-hp ammo. I think the bore on mine may be a bit oversized. I'm debating if I want to try my luck with another Hatsan barrel, or just go ahead and get a LW unchoked barrel machined for it. If I go LW, I'll probably go ahead and make it a 20-21".
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I made some progress with the HS adjustment on the SFP today! It is a really simple solution, but it works well and is super easy to adjust now. I basically tapped the metal plug that screws into the rear of the breech, the one the HS rests in.
I put the factory HS adjustment to minimum and locked down the little grub screw, so it will never have to move again. Then I tapped the plug at the rear for 8mm x 1.25 threads. I got the appropriate 8mm x 1.25 grub screw that fits that thread, and ground down the tip to make a little protrusion to fit inside the spring. That 8mm grub screw is the exact same size as the hole in the plug, so the spring will fit perfectly and move freely. It just so happens that the center of that plug lines up with the top screw of one of the butt pad adjustment plates. I drilled that out to have direct access to the new grub screw in the plug, and simply added a screw to the side of the original to hold that plate in place. I lost my side to side adjustment in the butt pad, but I like it dead center anyway, so no loss there. That plate is covered up by the up/down adjustable plate, and I still have my height adjustment.
Now, I simply remove the single 5mm allen that holds the butt pad in place(the one you loosen for vertical adjustment), and I can adjust the HS with a 4mm allen. I don't have to remove the stock, or monkey with that little grub screw in the hammer anymore! I imagine this mod would be even easier on a wood Flashpup! I did wrap the new grub screw in teflon tape so it wouldn't want to move. This is SO MUCH BETTER than the factory way of adjusting the HS :D I have some pictures below to show the modified plug/HS rest.
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I made some progress with the HS adjustment on the SFP today! It is a really simple solution, but it works well and is super easy to adjust now. I basically tapped the metal plug that screws into the rear of the breech, the one the HS rests in.
I put the factory HS adjustment to minimum and locked down the little grub screw, so it will never have to move again. Then I tapped the plug at the rear for 8mm x 1.25 threads. I got the appropriate 8mm x 1.25 grub screw that fits that thread, and ground down the tip to make a little protrusion to fit inside the spring. That 8mm grub screw is the exact same size as the hole in the plug, so the spring will fit perfectly and move freely. It just so happens that the center of that plug lines up with the top screw of one of the butt pad adjustment plates. I drilled that out to have direct access to the new grub screw in the plug, and simply added a screw to the side of the original to hold that plate in place. I lost my side to side adjustment in the butt pad, but I like it dead center anyway, so no loss there. That plate is covered up by the up/down adjustable plate, and I still have my height adjustment.
Now, I simply remove the single 5mm allen that holds the butt pad in place(the one you loosen for vertical adjustment), and I can adjust the HS with a 4mm allen. I don't have to remove the stock, or monkey with that little grub screw in the hammer anymore! I imagine this mod would be even easier on a wood Flashpup! I did wrap the new grub screw in teflon tape so it wouldn't want to move. This is SO MUCH BETTER than the factory way of adjusting the HS :D I have some pictures below to show the modified plug/HS rest.
Very nice design!! simple too. wish i could do something for the flash lol. I'll do this to my flashpup when i get it, but im waiting for a refurb or a good deal.
What made you guys pick the Synpup over the wood? Im still leaning towards the wood cuz I like traditional wood stocks but my woodflash has a few scraches and dings already from using tree's as a rest when shooting lol
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I started with a refurb wood FlashPup in .22. Turned up with an incredibly accurate barrel and it was very easy to hit my desired tune of 24 shots JSB 18.1 at 920FPS w/o a regulator.
Followed up a new SynFlashPup .25(even more accurate) from AirGunDepot last week during a deep discount ($10 over refurb price) and have been tweeking on it since.
I like the mono breach block design over the AT44 extruded aluminum breach on tube layout. Flashes have great economy in the arrangement of parts, simple hammer, no anti-double feed parts, removed sliding magazine axel bolt. I'm a simplicity guy, hate electric adjustable car seats, headlights on gimbals,... These FlashPups appeal to that.
The SynFlashPup has more features (primarily a very good adjustable butt up down left and right) and is a bit more refined like anodized metal port dust plug vs. plastic dowel. If wood is your thing definitely go wood.
If I could only have one it would be the SynFlashPup, but in .22 (in .25 the QE moderator is inadequate).
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... I lost my side to side adjustment in the butt pad, but I like it dead center anyway, so no loss there.
I relocated the same butt screw, and counter bored it to retain side to side adjustment which is better than I expected. Just have to return to center for hammer spring adjustments.
Really like what you did, simple operation and if you lose the original hammers spring grub screw you could fit a longer spring netting more power while maintaining free flight clearance.
Last night I removed the spring spacer, put a heavier gauge and longer spring in letting some more FPE out without leaning on the valve pin.
Polished the Pellet probe, bolt and hammer rounding sharp edges, polished the bolt catch and replaced bolt probe port with a turned MDS one. No gains in power, just smoothed the string and operation. Cocking is much improved, no grinding, smooth predictable operation.
I did run the bore scope and noticed the bolt probe appears to be short, not setting the pellet entirely into the lands. The lead goes half a pellet length beyond the port. Seems to me the pellet should be entirely engage with the probe, but doesn't seem to affect groups. Maybe the probe is less of an obstruction? Either way I'm shooting a comparison string, hand setting pellets into the lands, see what's what.
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I made some progress with the HS adjustment on the SFP today! It is a really simple solution, but it works well and is super easy to adjust now. I basically tapped the metal plug that screws into the rear of the breech, the one the HS rests in.
I put the factory HS adjustment to minimum and locked down the little grub screw, so it will never have to move again. Then I tapped the plug at the rear for 8mm x 1.25 threads. I got the appropriate 8mm x 1.25 grub screw that fits that thread, and ground down the tip to make a little protrusion to fit inside the spring. That 8mm grub screw is the exact same size as the hole in the plug, so the spring will fit perfectly and move freely. It just so happens that the center of that plug lines up with the top screw of one of the butt pad adjustment plates. I drilled that out to have direct access to the new grub screw in the plug, and simply added a screw to the side of the original to hold that plate in place. I lost my side to side adjustment in the butt pad, but I like it dead center anyway, so no loss there. That plate is covered up by the up/down adjustable plate, and I still have my height adjustment.
Now, I simply remove the single 5mm allen that holds the butt pad in place(the one you loosen for vertical adjustment), and I can adjust the HS with a 4mm allen. I don't have to remove the stock, or monkey with that little grub screw in the hammer anymore! I imagine this mod would be even easier on a wood Flashpup! I did wrap the new grub screw in teflon tape so it wouldn't want to move. This is SO MUCH BETTER than the factory way of adjusting the HS :D I have some pictures below to show the modified plug/HS rest.
Very nice design!! simple too. wish i could do something for the flash lol. I'll do this to my flashpup when i get it, but im waiting for a refurb or a good deal.
What made you guys pick the Synpup over the wood? Im still leaning towards the wood cuz I like traditional wood stocks but my woodflash has a few scraches and dings already from using tree's as a rest when shooting lol
I still haven't figured out a solution for my regular Flash on the HS front :( The only solution I have in my head is to do the same thing, but with a permanently attached "wheel" of some sort that I just turn. I would have do a cutout in the stock, and it really doesn't seem worth the effort or potential failure(of the stock modification) on that gun. At least the regular Flash doesn't have the trigger linkage to deal with when out of the stock.
I picked the SFP over the WFP due to the butt pad adjustment mostly, and the bolt design myself. Actually, I may end up modifying the bolt on SFP at some point. If they put the adjustable butt pad on the WFP, I'd probably go that route.
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I started with a refurb wood FlashPup in .22. Turned up with an incredibly accurate barrel and it was very easy to hit my desired tune of 24 shots JSB 18.1 at 920FPS w/o a regulator.
Followed up a new SynFlashPup .25(even more accurate) from AirGunDepot last week during a deep discount ($10 over refurb price) and have been tweeking on it since.
I like the mono breach block design over the AT44 extruded aluminum breach on tube layout. Flashes have great economy in the arrangement of parts, simple hammer, no anti-double feed parts, removed sliding magazine axel bolt. I'm a simplicity guy, hate electric adjustable car seats, headlights on gimbals,... These FlashPups appeal to that.
The SynFlashPup has more features (primarily a very good adjustable butt up down left and right) and is a bit more refined like anodized metal port dust plug vs. plastic dowel. If wood is your thing definitely go wood.
If I could only have one it would be the SynFlashPup, but in .22 (in .25 the QE moderator is inadequate).
... I lost my side to side adjustment in the butt pad, but I like it dead center anyway, so no loss there.
I relocated the same butt screw, and counter bored it to retain side to side adjustment which is better than I expected. Just have to return to center for hammer spring adjustments.
Really like what you did, simple operation and if you lose the original hammers spring grub screw you could fit a longer spring netting more power while maintaining free flight clearance.
Last night I removed the spring spacer, put a heavier gauge and longer spring in letting some more FPE out without leaning on the valve pin.
Polished the Pellet probe, bolt and hammer rounding sharp edges, polished the bolt catch and replaced bolt probe port with a turned MDS one. No gains in power, just smoothed the string and operation. Cocking is much improved, no grinding, smooth predictable operation.
I did run the bore scope and noticed the bolt probe appears to be short, not setting the pellet entirely into the lands. The lead goes half a pellet length beyond the port. Seems to me the pellet should be entirely engage with the probe, but doesn't seem to affect groups. Maybe the probe is less of an obstruction? Either way I'm shooting a comparison string, hand setting pellets into the lands, see what's what.
Thane, I like the whole Flash series for the reasons you mentioned. They are super simple, easy to work on, and have less reasons to fail. The weight is certainly a plus too! You did a nice job polishing the parts there. I would have gone a similar route on the side to side adjustment screws, but I didn't really see the need, since I like it dead center. I also like removing one screw and just adjusting. I wouldn't worry at all about the probe not pushing the pellet into the lands. As long as you're clearing the barrel port, that is the most important part. If you're shooting heavier ammo, or longer ammo, you'll appreciate that it doesn't push it into the lands. Otherwise, loading would become a chore I think.
I'm still trying to decide what I want to do with the barrel. It is super accurate with some pellets, but none of those are pellets I would use for normal critters, only for the high power/high penetration needs. I use HP pellets of some variety for most of my hunting, but this barrel doesn't like any of them. It comes down to this particular barrel having a bit larger than average bore I think. I'm on the fence about trying another barrel from Hatsan, or getting another barrel machined for it. Obviously, another Hatsan barrel would be way less expensive, but the idea of a longer barrel opens up easier power, so I don't know,lol.
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Made a second MDS Nylon pellet probe guide doubling the length to address racking on the wood FlashPup with-out all the other bolt polishing.
Increased the closing force a bit, but significantly reduced the ragged feel of the steel on steel pellet probe. Channel is not needed.
The pellet probe, bolt and bolt's hammer catch have been the main culprits for rough cocking on both my FlashPups.
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Made a second MDS Nylon pellet probe guide doubling the length to address racking on the wood FlashPup with-out all the other bolt polishing.
Increased the closing force a bit, but significantly reduced the ragged feel of the steel on steel pellet probe. Channel is not needed.
The pellet probe, bolt and bolt's hammer catch have been the main culprits for rough cocking on both my FlashPups.
Nice! I was considering doing the same thing with PEEK on my gun. I just got my hands on a mini lathe in need of a little attention. Once I get it working, I just may give that a go with the PEEK :)
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I have a 1.25" dia slug of PVX PEEK, carbon and PTFE impregnated, used for bearings.
I am too cheap to turn it down to under 1/2" and leave most of it in my chip tray.
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I have a 1.25" dia slug of PVX PEEK, carbon and PTFE impregnated, used for bearings.
I am too cheap to turn it down to under 1/2" and leave most of it in my chip tray.
LOL, we all have our breaking points :D It will be a bit, before I get around to possibly making a new probe guide. It looks like I'm probably gonna go ahead do a LW Polygon barrel for the Flash, and see where it gets me. It will probably take me a few days to get that done, then I'll do some testing with some of the newer NSA slugs in it. It should be interesting and informative, if nothing else...
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I have a 1.25" dia slug of PVX PEEK, carbon and PTFE impregnated, used for bearings.
I am too cheap to turn it down to under 1/2" and leave most of it in my chip tray.
LOL, we all have our breaking points :D It will be a bit, before I get around to possibly making a new probe guide. It looks like I'm probably gonna go ahead do a LW Polygon barrel for the Flash, and see where it gets me. It will probably take me a few days to get that done, then I'll do some testing with some of the newer NSA slugs in it. It should be interesting and informative, if nothing else...
Are you going to put a longer barrel on it, or stay factory length?
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I'll probably go a little longer than factory, but not much. I'm thinking around 20" right now. I acquired a LW polygon from a friend that was going to get one machined for one of his guns, and it never got finished. I'm not sure how much I'll have to work with, depending on how much machining was already done. I won't know that until I get the barrel in my hands to do some measurements. Judging from the pics I saw, I should have at least 20" to work with...
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I have an update on the barrel front. It turns out that barrel I got from a friend is a standard rifled/choked LW barrel. I machined it to fit, and ended up with about a 20.5" barrel. This barrel has a very tight bore, so slugs are pretty much out of the question. Just for kicks, I cranked up the HS and it hit 1024fps with the Monsters, so that extra 3" added about 20fps. I think it would have been a bit more on a barrel that doesn't have as tight of a bore. I went a little too far on the barrel port, so there are some loading issues with the smaller pellets. That's okay though, because this was literally the first barrel I've ever done. I did get the o-ring groove right at least, haha.
I haven't even bothered to test accuracy yet, because I don't think I'm done with it. Given the tight bore, I won't be using this barrel for high power stuff, so I've decided I'm going to change it. The good thing about the SFP is the shorter cylinder, which means I can make the barrel shorter. I'm going to re-do this LW barrel to remedy the port situation and make it a shorty. I can go shorter with it, than I could on the other Flash variants. I'm gonna make it a 15.5" me thinks :D That would make the gun a little over 27" with the 5" LDC, and it would still only be around 31" with the full length LDC. The weight loss won't hurt either. That will make it an excellent little woods walker! This should be fun...
Oh the higher power front, I'm not done there. I ordered an FX slug liner that I will sleeve and adapt to the SFP. If I can pull that off, I should have a little pup with some serious juice. I can add length without the weight penalty, since I'll be adding multiple CF sleeves. I'm thinking I'll go 24" and see what the little devil can do with some slugs. To be continued!
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I just finished up with my shorty barrel today. I gotta let the CF sleeve set, then I'll get it in the gun tomorrow or Thursday for some testing. The picture is a little deceiving, because of the phone camera, but it is exactly 15 3/8" long. You can only do a barrel this short on a Sythetic Flashpup, because it has the shorter steel cylinder. It's so darn cute, haha ;D
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Looks great!
Did you cut the threads on your lathe? or used a die?
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Looks great!
Did you cut the threads on your lathe? or used a die?
I got the barrel from someone that was going to put it on a gun they sold, so the threads were already cut(lucky me). I just had to chop it and re-do the breech end completely. I used a mini lathe. I've got the gearing to thread it, but I haven't had to yet. That will change on the next barrel though. It is super short with the shorter Huma LDC on it at 27", and it is still only 31.5" with the long Huma on there :D It is insanely quiet with the full length LDC, and still easily backyard friendly with the short one.
I'm waiting on some black derlin to machine an insert to fit around the barrel at the front scope rail support, so not finished yet. I didn't really test for accuracy, because it was getting dark, but it shot about a dime size group with the cheap crosman domes at 30 yards. Between the barrel insert I gotta make, and a couple other little things, it should be a little tack driver with this barrel and pellets. Believe it or not, the little monster can still make 50fpe with that 15" barrel,lol!
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Sweet project, perfectly executed.
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Thanks Mike! I'm not done yet, but it is moving along. I'm really anxious to see what I can do with that FX slug liner!
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I hear you on the slug liner. I really like and appreciate the compact, lightweight powerhouses such as this one....on my p15 I found it became difficult to shoot accurately when tuned in the high 50fpe range. With the full length MRod barrel it has a lot of power potential but in the end I realized I didn't need a bunch of power for my intended uses. Ultimately I settled on a very mild 45fpe tune for the P15. it has similar air capacity to an Mrod, but rated for 250bar. It gets right around 45-50 shots with this tune.
I really like the looks of your little pup with the 15" barrel, but I do understand the quest for more power.
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I hear you on the slug liner. I really like and appreciate the compact, lightweight powerhouses such as this one....on my p15 I found it became difficult to shoot accurately when tuned in the high 50fpe range. With the full length MRod barrel it has a lot of power potential but in the end I realized I didn't need a bunch of power for my intended uses. Ultimately I settled on a very mild 45fpe tune for the P15. it has similar air capacity to an Mrod, but rated for 250bar. It gets right around 45-50 shots with this tune.
I really like the looks of your little pup with the 15" barrel, but I do understand the quest for more power.
My goal is for this gun to fill the 35-60fpe range with slugs. I already have the .177, which does quite well on the lower to mid power stuff. With the much lower price of the NSA slugs now, I see it as a good thing to tune this gun for, since it can easily make that power range. Of course, it could all turn out a bust, and I end up keeping the 15" barrel on it :D The modding is as much fun as the shooting for me though.
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Donny...if you ever get the SFP to where you like it and you need another project, lemme know. I have a newer Bullboss that could benefit from someone who actually knows what they're doing with it. ;D
Simply amazing that you could get it to the same power level as the Boss in such a short amount of time! I almost pulled the trigger on a refurb Wood Flash on Hatsan's site last week, but I proudly held myself back.
Now it makes me wonder if I should have jumped on that deal. :(
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I got the new slug liner barrel finished tonight! It ended up being right at 24" with the brass piece that fits into the breech of the gun. I took the barrel port farther than I would on a normal barrel, since this one is intended for slugs and heavy pellets(.205 x .196). The extra length combined with the slightly larger than normal port really took the lowly SFP up a notch. It was dark, so no accuracy testing yet, but I did get a short little chrony session in. I cranked up the HS and grabbed some of the older NSA 30 grain slugs I had left over. The first three shots were 1014, 1009, and 1017 fps! That is slightly more than I was able to get out of my highly modded Bullboss with the same slugs. After that, I turned down the HS to get them around 900 fps for when I get to the accuracy testing. I'm very stoked about the power the little Flash pup was able to put down, and I'm sure it would be over 70fpe with the 34 grain beasts :D She's got the juice to sling any .22 slug I want now.
Basically, I took an FX .22 Slug liner A(600mm), and added a brass thimble to the breech end, and sleeved it with two thick tubes of carbon fiber. I used two tubes of pultruded carbon fiber around the liner, and that sucker is pretty darn stiff! I didn't really want to use pultruded CF, but it fit the bill for not having to stack too many CF sleeves to get the diameter I wanted. Pultruded has all the fibers running the length of the tube, so it is extremely stiff and resistant to barrel flex. I topped it off with an aluminum LDC adapter that I made to keep the weight down. The cool thing is this barrel is actually lighter than the 15" steel barrel I made! It balances really well too. If the accuracy is there with slugs, this will be one heck of a bargain slug slinger! Even with the 24" barrel, and an 8" LDC on it, it is still only 39". Here's some pictures of the barrel below that I took. I will try and add a picture of the gun later on, and will update with the accuracy results!
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That is a good looking barrel, looking forward to seeing the groups!
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That is a good looking barrel, looking forward to seeing the groups!
Well, unfortunately, it didn't like a single one of the .217 slugs :( I don't know if it is because I got the leade in wrong, or if it is wanting some .218 instead? I ordered some .218 to test that should be here next week hopefully. On the bright side, it liked the JSB Monsters (old and new) great. It was one ragged hole with them, and with Barracuda Match too. They even did well approaching 1000 fps.
I just did some testing with the 34 grain Beasts, and holy cow! At max power, it hit 989 fps for 73.75 fpe :o I backed it down and was able to get a solid 10 shot power tune with them. It averaged 917 fps with an ES 27 ! A 10 shot 63 fpe tune on a gun with a 165cc air cylinder ain't nothing to laugh at for sure. If it isn't raining tomorrow, I should be able to test the accuracy with the Beasts. I'm thinking it will probably do pretty well. Remember, this gun is a hunter, so I'm not after 30 shots with it. That is especially true for any game I'd be hunting at that power level(oink).
Even if this barrel turns out not liking the .218 slugs, it won't be a total bust, since it does like pellets ::)
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I got to put a few Beasts on target today, and the gun does like them! I only tested at 30 yards, but it was very windy. I didn't test below 900 fps, but they did great anywhere from 900-950 fps. It was kind funny feeling my little air gun slide back just a bit when it shot,lol. I wasn't all that focused, because it was a quick test, but there wasn't a single flyer in all of the shots I did. Below is a 5 shot group at the previously mentioned 915-920 fps with a Beast laying on top. I actually, pulled one the shots a little. This really makes me think there may be some hope for the .218 slugs....
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She's a lightweight accurate hammer! :o
That's insane!
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She's a lightweight accurate hammer! :o
That's insane!
Yessir, she's a little hammer for sure! I plan on taking her on an adventure this weekend, but only as a backup to my mini hammer .177 shooting 21 grain NSA slugs. It should be interesting... I'm still waiting on a piggy update from you ;) I just noticed that "Rally" version Bullboss in your sig, haha, nice!
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Just shot some FX Hybrids (save the drama for your mama) and they are amazing out of the .22 Flash Pup which has a tight choke.
I was only pushing them at 800FPS and making very tight 5 shot groups at 25 yds, well under 1/4" one under 1/8" center to center.
2 groups on the right, left group were JSB Heavies, on a 1" grid. I'm looking forward to stretching it out to 50 and 75 yds.
Would love to see what you could drive these at.
The AT44 with mild choke, not so much.
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Just shot some FX Hybrids (save the drama for your mama) and they are amazing out of the .22 Flash Pup which has a tight choke.
I was only pushing them at 800FPS and making very tight 5 shot groups at 25 yds, well under 1/4" one under 1/8" center to center.
2 groups on the right, left group were JSB Heavies, on a 1" grid. I'm looking forward to stretching it out to 50 and 75 yds.
Would love to see what you could drive these at.
The AT44 with mild choke, not so much.
That's great that those are working that well for you! The price is what keeps me away from the FX slugs. I mean, I can get heavy pellets with more for that price, and 300-350 slugs from NSA for close to the same price. The other issue I have is weight, at least for this gun. I built it to be able make power(when needed), and to have the ability to deal with larger critters. The fast expanding 22 grain FX slugs, won't be that good for tough critters that need good penetration I don't think. I do think they would be excellent for every day hunting though. I bet they would be very effective for tree rats, rabbits, and birds! The other want for slugs is long range fun, but that cost comes back into the picture. I'm not knocking them at all, they just float just outside the area I want them to fill for my situation. I still have the .218 sample pack from NSA to test, since the .217s were a bust. Oh, and there's the H&Ns that are out now. I hope to test them soon as well :D
On a side note, the new barrel absolutely loves the 34 grain Beasts! I got to do some testing at 50 yards this weekend, when sighting in for a hunt, and the groups look just like the ones from 30 yards. One ragged hole, and some serious thump too. They are the most accurate ammo in this gun, with the redesigned Monsters a very close second.
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She's a lightweight accurate hammer! :o
That's insane!
Yessir, she's a little hammer for sure! I plan on taking her on an adventure this weekend, but only as a backup to my mini hammer .177 shooting 21 grain NSA slugs. It should be interesting... I'm still waiting on a piggy update from you ;) I just noticed that "Rally" version Bullboss in your sig, haha, nice!
Very nice! How did the adventure go? I had a short one, but no one came out to play. Well, aside from the target box, but that was about it. Miscellaneous frogs, toads and crabs rummaging about, but they weren't part of the target menu.
And yes...the "Rally Version" puts a nice touch on it. ;D 8)
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It was pretty much the same for me. Plenty of critters, but not the ones I was look for,lol.
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Well, PA has a 20% off of hatsans so i got the synthetic on the way here. cheaper than when they had $50 off. in .25 it should be more or less of the power i wanted. oh ya
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Well, PA has a 20% off of hatsans so i got the synthetic on the way here. cheaper than when they had $50 off. in .25 it should be more or less of the power i wanted. oh ya
That is awesome! Knowing how you like to "tinker", just as I do, you can probably turn the .25 into a monster, if you wanted :D Still, they are a dang solid little thumper right out of the box. If you get froggy about tuning it, just shoot me a pm, and I'll answer anything you want to know. Let us know how it does when you get to play with it!
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hey thanks man. i usually can figure things out on my own but i do rather like asking for an easy way out. ;D
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hey thanks man. i usually can figure things out on my own but i do rather like asking for an easy way out. ;D
Hey, you could always come up with something I haven't thought about too! That's the great part about different people doing this. The biggest benefit of these guns is the simplicity, so the tuning is pretty cut and dry. At this point, I think the biggest improvements that could be had are larger air reservoir with a higher fill pressure, and regulation with a big plenum ;)
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the only thing you and i haven't thought about is fitting a balanced valve. wait...i just thought about it. lol.
yes regulator and bottle for more consistent shot counts are old news. the plenum if tube is cut forward of the barrel band should yield closer to 50-70cc. thats plenty!
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the only thing you and i haven't thought about is fitting a balanced valve. wait...i just thought about it. lol.
yes regulator and bottle for more consistent shot counts are old news. the plenum if tube is cut forward of the barrel band should yield closer to 50-70cc. thats plenty!
Make sure and post when you do all that to it :D
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Thinned the pellet probe and cranked up the hammer spring. Peaked at 66FPE with 34gr JSB MK II only netting 6 shots over 60 FPE.
Lowered tension by 3 turns brought 7 shots at 57 FPE and 12 shots within 4% definitely need more volume.
Chart shows what modification netted how much power increase from factory (pink), largest gain being the .212 valve seat with longer spring (blue), .187 transfer port with probe thinning (red) which steepened the bell curve. Yellow was peak hammer force, green turned down 3 turns.
Still working out how to set up a bottle with or without a regulator which is difficult with reduced plenum space.
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Yep! Your results are almost spot on with mine when I did the various mods. I also agree on the biggest change coming from the valve seat and spring. I didn't thin my probe as much, but I did a little bit. The gun will wake up some more, if you give it a bit more barrel to work with. With the longer barrel, it makes power so much easier, and that power hangs on for a few more shots too. Very good info with the charts! Still, it is hard to complain about a gun with that small of a cylinder(and price point) making that kind of power! Great work Thane!
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I have been following along on this since I just got a 25 cal Flashpup last month. All I can say is I wish I had the tuning skills you guys do. If I did this thing would be a monster as fast as I could get it done.
Can't wait to see what you do with this project.
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Following .....
MERRY CHRISTMAS Donny!!
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Following .....
MERRY CHRISTMAS Donny!!
Merry Christmas to you too sir!
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Thane, where did you source that heavier spring for your gun from?? I've got one or two that I get from the local hardware store that work, but it looks like the spring you're using may be a bit heavier.
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Found the spring in an Ace Hardware kit.
Length is 3.25" dia 0.33" wire dia. .047". VS stock 0.31 dia with 0.42" wire dia.
Compressed tight to set the spring (lost .25") then trimmed down.
Tight fit, but delivers more hit.
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Found the spring in an Ace Hardware kit.
Length is 3.25" dia 0.33" wire dia. .047". VS stock 0.31 dia with 0.42" wire dia.
Compressed tight to set the spring (lost .25") then trimmed down.
Tight fit, but delivers more hit.
I believe that is the exact same spring I'm using,lol! I also get mine from Ace :D
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I just noticed AGD has 12 % off coupon free ship plus free scope 3x12x50 with this SFP .25 {not that the scope will be great }, and I have not bought a new gun in 2 years ! ;D… what will power I have had ... ::) … I might just have to bring this no buy misery to and end ... ;D.... A question for you guys has anyone just tried simply adjusting the hammer spring in a .25,and if so what kind results did you get ? ….
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I just noticed AGD has 12 % off coupon free ship plus free scope 3x12x50 with this SFP .25 {not that the scope will be great }, and I have not bought a new gun in 2 years ! ;D… what will power I have had ... ::) … I might just have to bring this no buy misery to and end ... ;D.... A question for you guys has anyone just tried simply adjusting the hammer spring in a .25,and if so what kind results did you get ? ….
I think bone stock they will do mid 40 fpe range in .25 with a little HS adjustment. Hatsan's numbers they list for power are usually pretty spot on, give or take a little :) You can easily adjust it lower too. Shot count will depend on where you want the power. Generally speaking, 2 magazines per fill is attainable no problem.
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Yep, very flat 21 shot string within 4% ES making 37 -38 FPE with 25.4 gr JSB.
That was what it did new, right out of the box, absolutely spot on hammer setting for 2 magazines.
As far as just cranking up the hammer force without any modification, didn't do it. I would expect a downward trend string of shots.
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After coveting Donny's Huma MOD40 LDC for a few weeks, mine in .25 showed up this weekend.
Very quiet, but was clipping and scattering pellets. Huma was very honest with the first production batch undersized bore and finish that was more flat than desired. For that they provided a very generous discount. I drilled the bore from 9/32" to 19/64", an 0.016" increase. Clipping is gone, accuracy restored very pleased with the operation and flexibility.
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After coveting Donny's Huma MOD40 LDC for a few weeks, mine in .25 showed up this weekend.
Very quiet, but was clipping and scattering pellets. Huma was very honest with the first production batch undersized bore and finish that was more flat than desired. For that they provided a very generous discount. I drilled the bore from 9/32" to 19/64", an 0.016" increase. Clipping is gone, accuracy restored very pleased with the operation and flexibility.
Yeah, I think that's why those were on sale, because the holes were a wee bit small, if you didn't have absolutely perfect alignment(and pellet flight). I was using mine on a .22, so I didn't care. They are pretty dang quiet though, and I love the design! It is among the best LDCs going in my opinion ;)
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How do you guys like the mags on these guns ? … I have seen some people complain about them .
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For me they perform well with no unusual issues, simple compared to previous AT44 metal mags with retracting axle and anti-double feed levers.
If you don't like spring loaded mags, you won't like these which perform just like Marauder/Gauntlet....
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I've never had any issues at all with my magazines. The first ones that came out in the Flash weren't that great, but Hatsan remade them, and they have been working great. The ones with the red wheel inside are the newer version, and all guns sold now have the new version.
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Sounds good thanks guys ….I have a nice mrod/ tuned/boyds blaster stock, and i love that gun ,and the way the mags perform in it. SOooo it looks like I am standing on the SFP diving board , trying to get the best price . AGD had a 12 percent off code "FINAL" price but during check out it said not for this item .. :-\...wouldn't you know it ... ::) :P :-\ so I hate paying full price ,and no refurbs available at hatsan usa so I will search some more .
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Sounds good thanks guys ….I have a nice mrod/ tuned/boyds blaster stock, and i love that gun ,and the way the mags perform in it. SOooo it looks like I am standing on the SFP diving board , trying to get the best price . AGD had a 12 percent off code "FINAL" price but during check out it said not for this item .. :-\...wouldn't you know it ... ::) :P :-\ so I hate paying full price ,and no refurbs available at hatsan usa so I will search some more .
If you want to get the best of the Flash weight advantage, go with the Flashpup Wood(6.1 lbs), or the standard Flash(5.9 lbs). The Flash Wood is 6.6 lbs, and the Synthetic Flashpup is 7 lbs, because they have a heavier steel cylinder fwiw. They are all equally as good, and I don't mind the slight extra weight personally. I'm sure somebody on here has a PA catalog floating around with a 10% off code they'd be willing to PM ya,lol. I'd give you mine, but I used it already.
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Sounds good thanks guys ….I have a nice mrod/ tuned/boyds blaster stock, and i love that gun ,and the way the mags perform in it. SOooo it looks like I am standing on the SFP diving board , trying to get the best price . AGD had a 12 percent off code "FINAL" price but during check out it said not for this item .. :-\...wouldn't you know it ... ::) :P :-\ so I hate paying full price ,and no refurbs available at hatsan usa so I will search some more .
If you want to get the best of the Flash weight advantage, go with the Flashpup Wood(6.1 lbs), or the standard Flash(5.9 lbs). The Flash Wood is 6.6 lbs, and the Synthetic Flashpup is 7 lbs, because they have a heavier steel cylinder fwiw. They are all equally as good, and I don't mind the slight extra weight personally. I'm sure somebody on here has a PA catalog floating around with a 10% off code they'd be willing to PM ya,lol. I'd give you mine, but I used it already.
NATION19 worked on PA when I tested it in check out for 10%… now I have to decide which one flash wood vs SFP . I am starting to really like the flash wood looks to have the same internals as the SFP found this vid on you tube … pretty impressive …
don't know how many shots it really took to split the playing card in half ..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9DTb66ZACg&t=14s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9DTb66ZACg&t=14s)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw0lINxcWUI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw0lINxcWUI)
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I say go with whichever one you think you'll like the best. None of the differences between the models affect performance in any way, and they're all capable of the same results :)
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Hi, I have a .22 FP that I'm going to tune and this thread has some of the best info I've seen yet. For now I'd like to get this thing shooting in the 40ish + range using JSB Ultra Mags for hopefully a full 12 shot mag and seeing what you guys have accomplished makes me confident it should be no problem to achieve this.
Where are you guys sourcing the PEEK 3/8" rod if I may ask?
Thanks
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I order mine from Amazon. Just search peek rod, and you'll find it. You should be able to hit that power level pretty easily. You could probably do that just by opening up the derlin valve seat a little ;)
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I will try that first with reaming the the delrin seat. I've got a chrono ordered and hopefully next week I can start.
Been watching all the new stuff that's available and the nice stuff already here. Most at serious cost. I've been shooting this Pup for almost a year now and it's already really impressed me. Seeing the potential you can unlock say's maybe I don't need to spend 2k for something I want toss in the truck and go with.
Love your HS adjuster mod.
Thanks for the response and documenting all your research here for us to use.
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I have been doing some off hand shooting the Synthetic FlashPup .25 at 57 FPE.
With the stock, short barrel, and typical bullpup center balance at grip she generates a lot of up-flip bringing on severe hold sensitivity.
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I have been doing some off hand shooting the Synthetic FlashPup .25 at 57 FPE.
With the stock, short barrel, and typical bullpup center balance at grip she generates a lot of up-flip bringing on severe hold sensitivity.
Sounds like an excuse for a longer barrel to me :D Anything you can do to make the part where the barrel goes through the front scope rail mount more rigid will help with that. I also added a small insert between the barrel and the air cylinder to minimize any further movement too.
I will try that first with reaming the the delrin seat. I've got a chrono ordered and hopefully next week I can start.
Been watching all the new stuff that's available and the nice stuff already here. Most at serious cost. I've been shooting this Pup for almost a year now and it's already really impressed me. Seeing the potential you can unlock say's maybe I don't need to spend 2k for something I want toss in the truck and go with.
Love your HS adjuster mod.
Thanks for the response and documenting all your research here for us to use.
That's what this stuff is all about, sharing the info ;) Just do that porting and open up that valve seat, and she'll do that 40 fpe no problem.
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Sounds like an excuse for a longer barrel to me :D Anything you can do to make the part where the barrel goes through the front scope rail mount more rigid will help with that. I also added a small insert between the barrel and the air cylinder to minimize any further movement too.
Yep, been staring long and hard at the rail mounting points. Rear plastic riser with a single bolt and stud is not confidence inspiring.
Working on stiffening it all up, preferably in a straight line and parallel to bore line.
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Sounds like an excuse for a longer barrel to me :D Anything you can do to make the part where the barrel goes through the front scope rail mount more rigid will help with that. I also added a small insert between the barrel and the air cylinder to minimize any further movement too.
Yep, been staring long and hard at the rail mounting points. Rear plastic riser with a single bolt and stud is not confidence inspiring.
Working on stiffening it all up, preferably in a straight line and parallel to bore line.
The single rear bolt doesn't bother me as much as the that front rail mount does. The mounting at the rear isn't going to be able to move much, since it goes directly to the breech block. The front mount has a lot more effect on POI, since it can allow more movement. When I removed the QE, and made an insert to fit the barrel and mount very snug, it really stiffened up the whole gun. I feel like finding a way to negate any cylinder/barrel movement at the front should absolutely solve any issues. I haven't decided what my final solution will be, but I'll come up with something sooner or later. I think a tight fitting barrel band that also fits tight around the muzzle end of the cylinder would probably go a long way. It is all theory and thinking out loud right now though.
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The racking/twising that is occuring across single fastened points is my current concern. I can twist the barrel and rail and make POI shifts even with the barrel tightly shimmed using a turned/tapered delrin sleeve. I probably just shouldn't do that.
I agree the breach block is the anchor and I'm wanting to take advantage of the picatinny to lock out not only vertical but lateral motion using a cantilevered/long riser with longer picatinny clamping force. Picking it up again on a forward point with a longer aluminum barrel band and detach th air tube which adds a number of forces to the shot cycle. 2mm walled carbon tube is already epoxy bonded to factory barrel, very stiff. This would also lend itself to a bottle mod... still thinking it through a longer barrel would aid this since it is so compact.
Looking for a suitable chunk of alum in my garage...
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The racking/twising that is occuring across single fastened points is my current concern. I can twist the barrel and rail and make POI shifts even with the barrel tightly shimmed using a turned/tapered delrin sleeve. I probably just shouldn't do that.
I agree the breach block is the anchor and I'm wanting to take advantage of the picatinny to lock out not only vertical but lateral motion using a cantilevered/long riser with longer picatinny clamping force. Picking it up again on a forward point with a longer aluminum barrel band and detach th air tube which adds a number of forces to the shot cycle. 2mm walled carbon tube is already epoxy bonded to factory barrel, very stiff. This would also lend itself to a bottle mod... still thinking it through a longer barrel would aid this since it is so compact.
Looking for a suitable chunk of alum in my garage...
It would seem you're seeing the same stuff I'm seeing. I've got the up/down movement covered quite well, but I do feel there's some room for stiffening up the lateral movement. Of course, the elephant in the room that we are ignoring is that Hatsan really was smarter than we may have first considered. Using the QE shroud to tension the barrel solves many of the issues we are seeing with it removed. This isn't as much of an issue with the standard Flash, since it uses a more substantial barrel band from the BT65, but the Bullpup variations use a far more flexible band/front rail support. My SFP is currently wearing a shorter stiffer barrel, and isn't as bad as the 24" barrel I'm fighting on the Turkenstein Flash I got going in the other thread. I'm considering adding more barrel set screws on the side of the breech like I did on my standard Flash as well. That certainly did help with the lateral movement, since all the set screws are on the vertical plane from the factory.
I look forward to seeing what you come up with Thane! I did get around to adding a PEEK probe support on the Turkenstein like you did with the black derlin though :D See reply #22
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=166895.msg155872427#msg155872427 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=166895.msg155872427#msg155872427)
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I like what Donny did on the Turkinstein to stiffen up the barrel band and reduce racking with a carbon fiber reinforcement (I have to try that as well).
This is a different approach using the breach block milled rail to assist in holding the scope rail straight/aligned parallel with breach block and barrel, ultimately reduced twisting. I used one piccatiny adapter/riser on the breach block and another long cantilever rail riser to the forward barrel band. Shaved down the barrel band top to make rail parallel to bore. Also filed side notches to make a tight, mated fit into the channel under the new rail, resisting rotation and side to side motion. Finally cut excess rail to length.
Before the rail could be flexed and twisted by hand, much stiffer now, no twisting since the rail purchase is multiple times the original bolt and stud.
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That's a great idea Thane! I didn't even think about doing that, but it makes perfect sense! It was probably less trouble than what I did too. Let us know how it does, once you get it on a target. I think that flexing is for sure the biggest issue with the pups being accurate, especially without the QE. I may try and do something similar on the SFP too. I want to wait and see how things turn out with the Turkenstein first though. I'm also toying with making a band that locks onto the end of the cylinder/barrel too, but I don't know if I'll need to or not yet. More testing is needed...
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I started sizing up some aluminum for a new/ longer forward band machine job, but decided to save it for a bottling project...
Last night I gave a hard CCW twist across rail and barrel, punch a few holes at 10 yds, followed by a CW twist (no movement or flex, very rigid) and its all same hole.
Need to push it to 30yds before I call it good, it's already better.
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I started sizing up some aluminum for a new/ longer forward band machine job, but decided to save it for a bottling project...
Last night I gave a hard CCW twist across rail and barrel, punch a few holes at 10 yds, followed by a CW twist (no movement or flex, very rigid) and its all same hole.
Need to push it to 30yds before I call it good, it's already better.
Yep, you'll definitely know more, once you stretch the distance out. Hopefully it will be spot on. Where did you get that long rail from? I've seen those little adapters at a few places. I may want to give that a try with my SFP or the Turkenstein down the road. Can you post a full gun picture with that new rail installed? I'm curious to how it looks now.
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I used this 34 slot with long clamp, but cut it down to 25 slots:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071NV6NKJ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071NV6NKJ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
These adapters:
https://www.amazon.com/Ulightfire-Profile-Rail-Adaptor-10mm-11mm/dp/B07MRGBFQW/ref=pd_sbs_200_43?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B07MRGBFQW&pd_rd_r=e18122d4-0f21-4c32-8563-7ec7b7d75804&pd_rd_w=Vg93N&pd_rd_wg=lW9Y6&pf_rd_p=7c0dad87-8a25-4c4f-9349-026039ea6cb3&pf_rd_r=M6ZXRVYYAT5CTRB110A9&psc=1&refRID=M6ZXRVYYAT5CTRB110A9 (https://www.amazon.com/Ulightfire-Profile-Rail-Adaptor-10mm-11mm/dp/B07MRGBFQW/ref=pd_sbs_200_43?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B07MRGBFQW&pd_rd_r=e18122d4-0f21-4c32-8563-7ec7b7d75804&pd_rd_w=Vg93N&pd_rd_wg=lW9Y6&pf_rd_p=7c0dad87-8a25-4c4f-9349-026039ea6cb3&pf_rd_r=M6ZXRVYYAT5CTRB110A9&psc=1&refRID=M6ZXRVYYAT5CTRB110A9)
I'm sure there are many others that would work, main thing is getting as much purchase as possible on the breach block.
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That doesn't look bad at all, looks like it is factory! I just ordered those parts to play with, thanks for the links!
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Hey Thane, I just remembered something... Now that you aren't using that screw in the breech that was holding the factory rail at the rear, you have an additional barrel set screw you can add :D I did that on my regular Flash a while back. That extra set screw would certainly add to the cause, should you decide to tension the barrel using some 20mm OD carbon and the LDC to tighten it down. You wouldn't need that little insert there in the front rail support/barrel band.
I ordered a UTG dovetail to weaver mount that sits a bit higher, so I shouldn't have to take off much if any on that front support. I'll chop off part of the UTG adapter, of course. This should be way less trouble than carbon piece added to the front support! I will be testing this on my SFP for sure. Of course, I'm still waiting for a chance to put the Turkenstein through it's paces too, but I can't seem to get off work in time lately :(
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i took the rail from my flash pup sen and bolted it right down on my bully this rail 3911 hatsan part number they said not in stock to buy its same rail on flash pup and the bull master i used it on the bully figured it was not hollow in under it like the bully one was then i cut the bully rail same length as pup and put it on pup now i see thane set up is 10 times better looks like he even shimed the carbon tube up to make it stiffer i can see now under the rail on recever this spacer is i think plastic and only 1 bolt throught it i can see that being a weak point
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I drilled the valve, barrel and transfer port on my .25 Flashpup. Finished tuning it today. I am getting 53 fpe for 20 shots using the Hades 26.54 grain. I pulled the stock QE shroud off and added a CF 20 mm x 18mm tube over the barrel. I used the stock shroud bushing from the breach block end at the muzzle and an Oring in its place. The CF tube fits like a glove. I will order another bushing from Hatsan to replace the rear Oring. I also added a DonnFL Ronin suppressor to the end. This also helped tightened up the barrel flex.
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i took the rail from my flash pup sen and bolted it right down on my bully this rail 3911 hatsan part number they said not in stock to buy its same rail on flash pup and the bull master i used it on the bully figured it was not hollow in under it like the bully one was then i cut the bully rail same length as pup and put it on pup now i see thane set up is 10 times better looks like he even shimed the carbon tube up to make it stiffer i can see now under the rail on recever this spacer is i think plastic and only 1 bolt throught it i can see that being a weak point
Yep, Thane's setup seems like a good solution for sure. I did a separate post about making a sleeve to fit around the barrel/carbon tube to make the barrel fit tight through that front rail support a while back. That sleeve/shim is critical, if the QE is removed. The QE tensioning the barrel is a large part of what keeps the barrel stable from the factory.
I drilled the valve, barrel and transfer port on my .25 Flashpup. Finished tuning it today. I am getting 53 fpe for 20 shots using the Hades 26.54 grain. I pulled the stock QE shroud off and added a CF 20 mm x 18mm tube over the barrel. I used the stock shroud bushing from the breach block end at the muzzle and an Oring in its place. The CF tube fits like a glove. I will order another bushing from Hatsan to replace the rear Oring. I also added a DonnFL Ronin suppressor to the end. This also helped tightened up the barrel flex.
There ain't nothing at all wrong with that tune :) That sounds like a perfect hunting tune to me. I think the 20mm carbon tube is a good move. I've thought about doing that for a while, but didn't want to order a 1000mm long piece on the slow boat from China, since there wasn't any available for prime shipping at the time I looked. The 500 mm piece wouldn't have been long enough with the longer barrels I was playing with. It is good to know that the factory bushing fits inside the 18mm ID carbon tube too! I think I have about 4 of the QE shrouds and bushings floating around here at the moment,lol. I've since went back to a shorter barrel on my SFP, so I guess it is time to order some more carbon tube to play with :D
Between all of us and our own ideas about stiffening things up, I'd say there are plenty of solutions to solve removing that QE from the Flashpups!
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yes you fellers are right on a bull boss the barrle was .600 and the flash pup is .550 the 20mm x18mm works good i used it on bull boss used the plastic step down bushing you guys are talking about in the i/d of the 18mm worked perfect sealed right up again action block i did not see a o ring on the flash pup dlp could you take a pict of the o ring you talk about i not yet put the 18mmx20mm on my pup yet i got a nother tube 14mmx18mm i going to try cut few peieces and glue them in both ends of the 20mm tube and see if they work for spacers in the past i have people build me spacers from hard plastic like uhmw and in pict did he haft to cut down the height of the ring for new rail and is there a steal insert in there or does it just screw in to plastic
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Didn't think to add another set screw, definitely going to do that. I bonded the 19 OD x 19 1915 ID to the barrel so a 20 OD x 19 ID would be great for tension and replacing shim, another great insight, thanks Donny!Front rail is drilled and counter bored, new rail has a bottom channel, top of support notched/sloped to match channel stoping rotation on bolts. Bushing shim is drilled 19mm and turned to give a cone shape. The 20 x 14 mm carbon tube does not need shimming.
I sourced a carbon tube that is 19.75 OD x 14 ID exact QE and .22 barrel dimensions. It's a very tight fit on the .22 Wood FlashPup, no need for epoxy so I can tension it with LDC and no shimming. Ebay seller "EnvyGears" who does a great range of sizes in 500mm and 1000mm lengths:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Glossy-20mm-OD-14mm-ID-500mm-Length-3K-Roll-Carbon-Fiber-Tube-20-14-500/283649629085?hash=item420ad5db9d:g:N0EAAOSwdJtdIxNa (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Glossy-20mm-OD-14mm-ID-500mm-Length-3K-Roll-Carbon-Fiber-Tube-20-14-500/283649629085?hash=item420ad5db9d:g:N0EAAOSwdJtdIxNa)
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Deed is done. No doubt the 20 x 14 carbon tube was near perfect, just cut to length, true ends, de-burr and relax the ID with some 500 grit sanding using a dowel (lathe sped things up, but could certainly be done by hand). Snug press fit with some heavy silicone oil, no hammering as I would like to be able to disassemble in the future.
LDC in tension pressed it home, snug fit in barrel ring with no shimming. Rail still needs some attention.
At $22 carbon sleeve high stiffness, simple execution and reversible. -no brainer-
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... in pict did he haft to cut down the height of the ring for new rail and is there a steal insert in there or does it just screw in to plastic
Yes, ring was too high for rail riser/adapter and cantilever picatinny rail, sanded down, filed notchs, used existing captive nut for counter sunk bolt through rail.
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There isn’t a stock Oring on the barrel or in the shroud. I just added one in place of the factory bushing at the reciever end of the barrel to take up the slop. I moved the bushing to the muzzle end to keep the muzzle propped up at the end of the air tube. I have ordered 2 of the Hatsan bushings to replace the Oring. I really like the idea of a 20mm x 14mm CF tube also. I didn’t think about sanding the inside of the 14mm tube when I started this. I think I will order the 20/14 CF tube and redo mine. As I cut the 20/18 CF tube a little too short. I added another Oring between the LDC and barrel to hide my screw-up. Thanks for the link.
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i seen this and said same thing i ordered a 18x20 15$ then a 14x18 18$ i had not idea to use a 14mmx20mm like thane did would been cheaper and better 22$ ant bad at all i may order one also i had pretty good luck gets stuff from hatsan in the past i see now on thane gun they have a metal nut right under the plastic on the bully tank cover you can see the littler square threaed peiece right under the weaver rail on the flash pup it must be open under it or the metal nut is foremed in side i see he had to cut probile 1/4 off the height of it for his rail to set right thanks guys for this info and on his wood pup i see the air cylender is alumion and longer than the air tube on my flash pup senthetic i think i read on a post the sen pup has a few difrent stuff then the wood versions
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Deed is done. No doubt the 20 x 14 carbon tube was near perfect, just cut to length, true ends, de-burr and relax the ID with some 500 grit sanding using a dowel (lathe sped things up, but could certainly be done by hand). Snug press fit with some heavy silicone oil, no hammering as I would like to be able to disassemble in the future.
LDC in tension pressed it home, snug fit in barrel ring with no shimming. Rail still needs some attention.
At $22 carbon sleeve high stiffness, simple execution and reversible. -no brainer-
That should be a good stiff piece of carbon right there! Can you tell a difference in the stiffness of the barrel with it tensioned? I got the rail bits in the mail today, and played around with it. I used a UTG dovetail to weaver adapter that was a little higher, and put a spacer under the front end of the rail. I wanted to raise the whole rail a wee bit higher, so I could use some medium rings I had floating around.
You were correct, that is a good sturdy solution for the rail. It is definitely stiffer than the factory setup. It certainly helps with the SFP. The Turkenstein is another story..I guess due to the carbon support on the front rail mount, it didn't make any real difference in my barrel stiffness though. I'm also using a 24" barrel, so there's a lot of barrel sticking out on that gun. I'm going to tension the barrel on the SFP and the Turkenstein I think. I'm interested to hear how the tensioning worked on your gun Thane!
Oh yeah, how long does the shipping take from that ebay seller?
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Very stiff tube and the tensioned barrel on the WFP is marginally better than the bonded SFP due to tension. When you pinch the joint at the breach block and torque on the barrel the tensioned barrel has no shifting you can feel with finger tips. The bonded barrel has very slight motions at the barrel insertion to breach block since there is only the set screws and carbon sitting adjacent with no tension . I'll be slipping a 20x19 tube over it, tensioning and loose the shim. I would try tensioning the largest diameter tube I could fit on the Turkenstein, functions like a truss.
There are so many rails out there, let us know how the UTG works out. I'm trying a one piece different/higher one for the WFP with a longer rail connection no adapter.
The ebay seller delivered one order in nine days and a second order in 6 days, well packages in PVC pipe. I doubt even the USPS could break these carbon tubes.
I notice Hatsan is starting to trickle out some SFP Refurbs today, a couple of lucky dogs picked up a .22 an .177 for $250 ea.
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Very stiff tube and the tensioned barrel on the WFP is marginally better than the bonded SFP due to tension. When you pinch the joint at the breach block and torque on the barrel the tensioned barrel has no shifting you can feel with finger tips. The bonded barrel has very slight motions at the barrel insertion to breach block since there is only the set screws and carbon sitting adjacent with no tension . I'll be slipping a 20x19 tube over it, tensioning and loose the shim. I would try tensioning the largest diameter tube I could fit on the Turkenstein, functions like a truss.
There are so many rails out there, let us know how the UTG works out. I'm trying a one piece different/higher one for the WFP with a longer rail connection no adapter.
The ebay seller delivered one order in nine days and a second order in 6 days, well packages in PVC pipe. I doubt even the USPS could break these carbon tubes.
I notice Hatsan is starting to trickle out some SFP Refurbs today, a couple of lucky dogs picked up a .22 an .177 for $250 ea.
Both my SFP and Turkenstein are wearing barrels that I machined to fit pretty snug into the breech block. I made them slightly larger than factory to remove the slop. The "rail redo" made absolutely no difference on the Turkenstein, so that tells me the carbon reinforcement is doing it's job. I do think tensioning the barrel on that one will be the way to go for sure. I'm gonna go with the new rail on the SFP though, because I don't want to make another carbon support. That was a bear... The SFP has a 20" barrel on it, so it is less prone to flex, but I'm probably gonna tension it as well. I've already bonded 8mm ID x 16mm OD carbon fiber on the barrel, since it was made using an FX slug liner :D I still think some tension will help though. Those slug liners seem to shoot pellets really well too. I also have the 15" shorty standard LW for the SFP, with 14mm ID x 16mm OD carbon tube bonded to that barrel. It is so short, I don't think it really needs any tension.
I'll let you know how the rail works out on the SFP, when I get a chance to get it on a target :) Man, somebody did get some deals on those refurbs! I would have got one and ordered WFP valve to put in it, if they'd had them when I ordered the WFP. Despite all of our monkeying around, I really do like the SFP a lot.
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I went ahead and tensioned the barrel with some 20mm OD x 18mm ID carbon fiber(I prefer matte). I didn't want it to be a super tight fit around the barrel, so it would have full freedom to tension the barrel and pull itself good and straight in the process. I also made bushings to go on each end of the tube out of black derlin. They fit good and snug on the barrel and outer tube as well. I used the bushings make sure things square up well, and squared off the ends of the carbon fiber to make sure I didn't have any clipping issues. The tube with the bushings is a little longer than the barrel to the base of the LDC, so it is pulling tight by the time the LDC is tightened all the way down.
This make a rather larger difference on my gun. The slightly longer tube let me crank down the LDC with some good tension on the barrel. If feels quite solid now! Thane, I wonder if your outer tube being too tight around your barrel is keeping it from tensioning well, or maybe the ends of the tube aren't square? I know you said it only made a little difference on yours, but it made a lot of difference on mine. So much so, I'm not going to bother changing out the rail at this point.
Below are a few pictures showing the ends with the bushings I made, and one of the whole gun. I think she looks nice wearing that 20" barrel, 20mm carbon, and the Huma LDC :D
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Nice job on the bushings. Hatsan is sending me 2. I didn’t have a way of making my own. You saved yourself $25 shipped for 2! I did order a 20mm x 14mm CF tube also. Figured I would see which works better. I can use one or the other set-up on my .22 Flashpup too.
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Nice job on the bushings. Hatsan is sending me 2. I didn’t have a way of making my own. You saved yourself $25 shipped for 2! I did order a 20mm x 14mm CF tube also. Figured I would see which works better. I can use one or the other set-up on my .22 Flashpup too.
Buying a used mini lathe was one of the best purchases I've ever made :D The 20mm x 14mm should be super stiff, which is a good thing. You just have to make sure it doesn't fit too tight around the barrel, or it won't really be able to tension the barrel as well as you'd like(I think). Of course, if it is a tight fit on the barrel, that will be one stiff barrel either way.
I was going to use the factory QE bushings, but they were too small to fit over my barrels that are 16mm OD :( I think the ones I made probably worked out better for me though. It was just a little more work for me is all. I look forward to hearing how yours works out!
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Donny those delrin bushings are a great add, probably compress a bit, squaring and contributing to maintain tension through compression. Looks good too!
The 20 x 14 slides back as the Huma LDC threads down, so I'm certain the tension is making it back to the breach block. I'm also sure the carbon fiber to aluminum is riding on high spots even though I can't see it. Time to turn some delrin bushings...
Mini lathes really make projects great, very easy to fab up pieces for testing.
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Donny those delrin bushings are a great add, probably compress a bit, squaring and contributing to maintain tension through compression. Looks good too!
The 20 x 14 slides back as the Huma LDC threads down, so I'm certain the tension is making it back to the breach block. I'm also sure the carbon fiber to aluminum is riding on high spots even though I can't see it. Time to turn some delrin bushings...
Mini lathes really make projects great, very easy to fab up pieces for testing.
Yessir, the bushings do compress a little, and I think they give a little leeway if the carbon tube isn't completely square. I also like the idea of them not scuffing up the gun or LDC, and making a solid seal on the LDC. I should have gotten a mini lathe years ago! I had no idea what I was missing.
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i going to buy me a mini lathe also i had people build me bushing like you just made with lathes and last time guy 3d printed me one i checked the i/d on the 14mmx18mm crabon tube its like .550 and my barrle is .550 i dont have a lathe to sand down the full 15 inch carbon tube i going to go this way i going to cut 2 peces of the 14mm i/d tube sand them out on in side a little glue them in the m18x20 tube on both ends then slide it on barrle and let ldc hold it to action you guys think that work ok
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i going to buy me a mini lathe also i had people build me bushing like you just made with lathes and last time guy 3d printed me one i checked the i/d on the 14mmx18mm crabon tube its like .550 and my barrle is .550 i dont have a lathe to sand down the full 15 inch carbon tube i going to go this way i going to cut 2 peces of the 14mm i/d tube sand them out on in side a little glue them in the m18x20 tube on both ends then slide it on barrle and let ldc hold it to action you guys think that work ok
How about you just chuck a wooden dowel rod into the drill, and roll up some sand paper on it. Then, you can just use the dowel rod and drill to reach the whole length of the carbon tube. Any other long rod that you could figure a way to fix some sand paper on should work too. I wouldn't chop the tube in half, because you'd effectively be taking away the benefit of that really stiff tube. The benefit of that 14mm ID tube isn't for strength under tension, but the fact that the thick carbon tube is extremely rigid. If you chop it in half, you'd probably be just as well off just not using it, and simply using the 18mm ID tube for tension. It is plenty strong enough to handle the tension by itself.
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I did a quick tune on the SFP to get it ready for target testing(hopefully on Sunday). It is currently tuned for mid/high power. Right now it is shooting the 30 grain H&N slugs around 875fps for 16 shots with an ES of 19. Those slugs showed promise shooting around 880 fps when I was last testing slugs. I want to see if that promise is still there, and that is a good tune for the JSB Monsters as well as the 25/27 grain slugs. After that, I'll probably tune it down to shoot the 21 grain slugs around 925 for 25-30 shots and see how they do. Then, I will move on to testing my preferred hunting pellets that range from 16-18 grains at even lower power...
I'm currently thinking I'm gonna leave it tuned for the heavy stuff, since I'll have my .177 tuned for a little lower power. I don't know for sure, until I see how everything is shooting with that new tensioned barrel set up. I'm really liking how the gun feels with the tensioned barrel though, and feel like it should be much more consistent. All of this is with it wearing a 500mm FX slug liner with about 8mm of carbon bonded to it(16mm OD) with a brass thimble(leade), and the 20mm carbon tube tensioning it , fyi.
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It was 50* and calm today. So at lunch, I set targets out every 5 yards from 10 to 50 yards. I already had the .25 sighted in at 35 yards and wanted to see where it was really hitting at all ranges. I am within 1/2” high/low from 15 out to 50. I can’t believe how much tighter it is shooting since the new shroud. At 50, it’s 1 ragged out hole. I also shot a mag at 75. 9 out of 10 were within a Nickole with a 1” flier. Was hoping to hunt this weekend. But it’s predicted 40 mph wind, 1 to 2” of rain and 1” of ice.
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It was 50* and calm today. So at lunch, I set targets out every 5 yards from 10 to 50 yards. I already had the .25 sighted in at 35 yards and wanted to see where it was really hitting at all ranges. I am within 1/2” high/low from 15 out to 50. I can’t believe how much tighter it is shooting since the new shroud. At 50, it’s 1 ragged out hole. I also shot a mag at 75. 9 out of 10 were within a Nickole with a 1” flier. Was hoping to hunt this weekend. But it’s predicted 40 mph wind, 1 to 2” of rain and 1” of ice.
That's great, and it sounds like that gun is spot on now! You can't really ask for anything better than that for sure. Too bad about the weather, but at least you know you gun will do it's part when the time comes. I'm at the mercy of the weather this weekend too :( It is supposed to be storming all day tomorrow, and may still rain on Sunday... What kind of tune are you running on that gun? This is very promising news, regardless!
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i cut 2 peces of the m14xm18 tube man they were so tight going on i could not get them all the way on i guled them in side the m18xm20 tube and still would not just slide on i even putoil on barrle lol i am now in the porcess opening up the i/d a little with a round file i probile get a dol rod and use sand paper like you said i think this work i shure if a man used the m14x20m would be perfect but for shure it haft to be sanded all the way down the i/d its very very tight
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Fred
Like mentioned, sanding the ID would really help. I think I would put the drill motor in a vice with a 3/8 wood dole with stick on sand paper. Might be easier to handle sliding the tube back and forth verses the drill motor.
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you got it right i may try that i know on the m14x20m would work perfect do like thane did sand the hole thing down on in side why he did would haft to make barrle stiffer
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I slowed it down just a bit. A lot easier to cock. I drilled all 3 ports at 13/64s. The HS is 3/4 ccw. I am shooting the 26.54 Hades with a 3200 fill. Starting at 882 working up to 898 and back down to 827 over 20 shots. Shot 19 was 841 so it could look a little better. But I called it like it was. Giving me an avg of 874 at 45 fpe. And it’s accurate.
With the same tune, I have the JSB 33.95 Starting out at 797 working up to 821 and back down to 756 over 20 shots. Again, shot 18 was 778 so it could look better too. But it gives me an avg of 798 at 48 fpe.
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I slowed it down just a bit. A lot easier to cock. I drilled all 3 ports at 13/64s. The HS is 3/4 ccw. I am shooting the 26.54 Hades with a 3200 fill. Starting at 882 working up to 898 and back down to 827 over 20 shots. Shot 19 was 841 so it could look a little better. But I called it like it was. Giving me an avg of 874 at 45 fpe. And it’s accurate.
With the same tune, I have the JSB 33.95 Starting out at 797 working up to 821 and back down to 756 over 20 shots. Again, shot 18 was 778 so it could look better too. But it gives me an avg of 798 at 48 fpe.
That's a good solid hunting tune right there, especially if it is accurate as you say! ....but, did you do the valve seat? If you make a PEEK valve seat with a .210 opening, that will wake the little pup up for sure ;) You can open up the factory seat to probably .190 safely, and that will help as well. The PEEK seat won't require as much HS though. The biggest improvement on most of these Hatsans is in the valve seat, along with good porting.
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I have to admit that that is something I haven’t played with. Not really sure how to go about it.
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If that is the case, you may want to start with opening up the factory valve seat a little bit. The guns come with a spare one, so it isn't the end of the world if you mess up :) Just take a 3/16" bit and drill it out, then take some rolled up sand paper(400 grit) and move it in and out of the hole to smooth it out, until the shank of the bit fits through it without much resistance. That will put you close .190 :)
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Thanks for the info. Do you drill it while it’s in the valve, or take it out? I wasn’t sure how to pop it out. I thought you guys were making your own, not modifying the stock one. I do have a few of the spares. Are the .22 and .25 the same size?
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Thanks for the info. Do you drill it while it’s in the valve, or take it out? I wasn’t sure how to pop it out. I thought you guys were making your own, not modifying the stock one. I do have a few of the spares. Are the .22 and .25 the same size?
We were making our own out of PEEK, and that is still the best way to go, but the factory one can be opened up a little and provide some decent improvements. You need to pop it out of the valve to do what I mentioned. Just take the valve, remove the valve spring and pin. Then you can insert something(like a small flat head) through the hole in the valve where the valve pin goes so you can catch the bottom edge of the seat and push it out. Once you pop it out of position, it will come put the other end of the valve pretty easily. I actually use a piece of 14 gauge utility wire, that I put a slight bend on the end of and flattened. That little bend and flat tip helps it catch the bottom edge of the valve seat better, but I imagine the edge of a little flathead screwdriver would work too.
They all use the same seat, regardless of caliber. Some may have a little larger/smaller opening, but any of them can be used.
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Thanks for the info. I have it shooting pretty good for now. Next tear down, I will give it a go.
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Figured I'd stop by to see what kinda shenanigans are going on. Apparently a 40FPE .177 is what's been happening! Holy smokes! :o
That's going to be one heck of a terminal pill. Bummer the Griffins didn't work out. Maybe they're too long and are starting to wobble?
Really excited to see how this little hammer performs!
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Figured I'd stop by to see what kinda shenanigans are going on. Apparently a 40FPE .177 is what's been happening! Holy smokes! :o
That's going to be one heck of a terminal pill. Bummer the Griffins didn't work out. Maybe they're too long and are starting to wobble?
Really excited to see how this little hammer performs!
That is on the Turkenstein (Flashpup XL) thread. This is the the Synthetic Flashpup thread, haha. Actually, I was able to get it up to 52fpe, but I currently have it regulated for about 29 fpe with the 15.5, and around 30 fpe for the 18 grain NSAs ;) I was able to get a dang solid 45 fpe tune unregulated too! I'm just working out barrel tensioning(or not) to deal with harmonics. It is funny, because a little plastic spacer between the barrel and the cylinder can mean the difference between 1/4" groups and 1/2"+ groups depending on where I put it :o But I'll carry that on on that thread ;) https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=166895.new#new (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=166895.new#new)
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I got the 2 shroud/barrel spacers from Hatsan today. I want to add them to the 20/18 mm shroud tube I have on the rifle now. But I have it shooting quarter size groups at 75 yards. I hate to start over. If I end up using the spacers, I plan on using 1 in the back and 1 in the front. I may file down the ring on the third one and glue it in the tube right where the barrel band is. I think 3 spacers that far apart would take up any slack. I am also waiting on the 20/14mm CF tube to get here. I may tear the rifle down and ream the valve seat at that time too. Right now, I am working on a cheek riser to replace the factory one. The 2 screws stripped out and no longer hold the riser in place. Looking at making one out of a picatinny Mount that would bolt to the reciever behind the mag well.
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hey d i cut me 2 peces about 1/2 or 5/8 long glued them in each end of the m18x20m tube then i used a 1/2 drill to open up the i/d just a little so it slide over barrle worked great got the length off about a 32 of a inch on shroude used a black o ring on barrle and when i sunuged up the ldc it pinched the o ring again action worked slick as a ribbon i can see adding a spacer in tube where barrle ring for weaver rail would help but best set up what thane did used a 14mm i/d sand it out and the 20mm o/d was perfect if i was doing it a gain i do what he did
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Ya. That’s what I think too. Just waiting on the new tube.
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Figured I'd stop by to see what kinda shenanigans are going on. Apparently a 40FPE .177 is what's been happening! Holy smokes! :o
That's going to be one heck of a terminal pill. Bummer the Griffins didn't work out. Maybe they're too long and are starting to wobble?
Really excited to see how this little hammer performs!
That is on the Turkenstein (Flashpup XL) thread. This is the the Synthetic Flashpup thread, haha. Actually, I was able to get it up to 52fpe, but I currently have it regulated for about 29 fpe with the 15.5, and around 30 fpe for the 18 grain NSAs ;) I was able to get a dang solid 45 fpe tune unregulated too! I'm just working out barrel tensioning(or not) to deal with harmonics. It is funny, because a little plastic spacer between the barrel and the cylinder can mean the difference between 1/4" groups and 1/2"+ groups depending on where I put it :o But I'll carry that on on that thread ;) https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=166895.new#new (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=166895.new#new)
That it is. Whoops. :P
Still though...52 FPE? Hammer time!
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I got the 2 shroud/barrel spacers from Hatsan today. I want to add them to the 20/18 mm shroud tube I have on the rifle now. But I have it shooting quarter size groups at 75 yards. I hate to start over. If I end up using the spacers, I plan on using 1 in the back and 1 in the front. I may file down the ring on the third one and glue it in the tube right where the barrel band is. I think 3 spacers that far apart would take up any slack. I am also waiting on the 20/14mm CF tube to get here. I may tear the rifle down and ream the valve seat at that time too. Right now, I am working on a cheek riser to replace the factory one. The 2 screws stripped out and no longer hold the riser in place. Looking at making one out of a picatinny Mount that would bolt to the reciever behind the mag well.
I don't blame you there. I've always been hesitant to fix things when they aren't broken :D I had picatinny covers on my Bullboss a while back where the cheek rest used to be. On that gun the cheek rest was way too wide, so I removed it completely. You could always re-tap the holes for a slightly larger screw to hold that cheek piece on too.
On a side note, where'd Thane go?
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Working on my shooting skills...
... 57FPE out of an 19.4" barrel with a bullpup center balance is proving difficult , 44 fpe no issues, so I am backing it down or have to install a longer barrel, but we all know what that leads to...
Also tried a picatinny cantilevered rail, bust, cockeyed and not as solid. The original dovetail to picatinny adapter to picatinny cantilever engaged the odd Hatsan rail and is far more solid. So they are both tight now.
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Haha, it does take some getting used to for sure. Unless you've changed out the factory barrel, it is 17" and change, not 19.4". I know it is incorrectly listed in a few places. You should measure it to confirm though.
I do know what installing a longer barrel leads to... More fun ;D
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I'm just repeating bad info. :o
17" seems correct, 500mm carbon shroud and I cut a few inches off.
Makes me wonder if it's making 57FPE from 17" what would an additional 5" provide?
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I'm just repeating bad info. :o
17" seems correct, 500mm carbon shroud and I cut a few inches off.
Makes me wonder if it's making 57FPE from 17" what would an additional 5" provide?
An additional 4-5" would provide a pretty good boost! I have little doubt that 57 fpe would jump to 60 fpe+ :D A few extra inches makes quite a difference on how easy these little guns make power. It is hard to make big power out of a 17" barrel, so when you start making that kind of power, you will get a pretty good jump in power with some more barrel. I didn't know the lengths were listed wrong myself, until someone mentioned to me, and I started looking. I think I even remember it being wrong on Hatsans's site for one of the Flash versions?
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I got this in my email... Can you guys spot the changes?!
https://hatsanairgunsusa.com/product/flashpup-syn-qe/?mc_cid=6914128001&mc_eid=caf1542919
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Like the lever...
Finally a 19.4" barrel ;)
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I got this in my email... Can you guys spot the changes?!
https://hatsanairgunsusa.com/product/flashpup-syn-qe/?mc_cid=6914128001&mc_eid=caf1542919 (https://hatsanairgunsusa.com/product/flashpup-syn-qe/?mc_cid=6914128001&mc_eid=caf1542919)
HA !... Donny I was just going to post what you did ! …. and I was just about to pull the trigger on a sfp tonight on pa ! ...dang ! now what ? … I guess I better wait till the new side lever is in stock ?… plus the aea terminator 357 rapid fire semi auto LW barrel $1000 is now available but I found out the trigger is not adjustable 7lbs pull … you have to mod it yourself which 1 guy on this forum has done with claimed good results ….. they also have a .25 cal 40ft that is carbon ultra lite 2.8 lbs that looks like everyone of us would really wont 1.. its not in stock in the usa yet … look at this video , the quick change barrel/air tank's you can just change this gun into any configuration you want …. HA ! so many cool guns hitting the market that will get the cash out of your wallet ! … Dang !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Go81Ocl-qM&t=187s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Go81Ocl-qM&t=187s)
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Like the lever...
Finally a 19.4" barrel ;)
I'd be willing to bet money they have that one listed wrong too,lol. I'm sure it is the 17" barrel on there, given it is the exact same length overall.
I got this in my email... Can you guys spot the changes?!
https://hatsanairgunsusa.com/product/flashpup-syn-qe/?mc_cid=6914128001&mc_eid=caf1542919 (https://hatsanairgunsusa.com/product/flashpup-syn-qe/?mc_cid=6914128001&mc_eid=caf1542919)
HA !... Donny I was just going to post what you did ! …. and I was just about to pull the trigger on a sfp tonight on pa ! ...dang ! now what ? … I guess I better wait till the new side lever is in stock ?… plus the aea terminator 357 rapid fire semi auto LW barrel $1000 is now available but I found out the trigger is not adjustable 7lbs pull … you have to mod it yourself which 1 guy on this forum has done with claimed good results ….. they also have a .25 cal 40ft that is carbon ultra lite 2.8 lbs that looks like everyone of us would really wont 1.. its not in stock in the usa yet … look at this video , the quick change barrel/air tank's you can just change this gun into any configuration you want …. HA ! so many cool guns hitting the market that will get the cash out of your wallet ! … Dang !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Go81Ocl-qM&t=187s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Go81Ocl-qM&t=187s)
Those AEA guns look really cool, but that trigger would be a certain deal breaker for me. Hopefully, they'll get more guns in the market and all the little bugs worked out etc. !
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Still waiting on the CF tube. Was suppose to be here yesterday. And with the snow and ice today, not sure if it will arrive today either. So the shroud is still on hold. The cheek riser screws stripped out of the breech block. I did drill out the breech block holes and retapped it with larger screws. The cheep Hatsan screws didn’t strip out like they did on my Bully. Instead the block stripped out. Easy enough fix.
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Still waiting on the CF tube. Was suppose to be here yesterday. And with the snow and ice today, not sure if it will arrive today either. So the shroud is still on hold. The cheek riser screws stripped out of the breech block. I did drill out the breech block holes and retapped it with larger screws. The cheep Hatsan screws didn’t strip out like they did on my Bully. Instead the block stripped out. Easy enough fix.
At least you got that cheek riser situation straightened out :D
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I got this in my email... Can you guys spot the changes?!
https://hatsanairgunsusa.com/product/flashpup-syn-qe/?mc_cid=6914128001&mc_eid=caf1542919
The side lever action. Must be one heavy side lever, though, as it says the weight has ballooned from 7 to 11 lbs. Let's hope that is a typo. And it still needs the aluminum tube.
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I got this in my email... Can you guys spot the changes?!
https://hatsanairgunsusa.com/product/flashpup-syn-qe/?mc_cid=6914128001&mc_eid=caf1542919
The side lever action. Must be one heavy side lever, though, as it says the weight has ballooned from 7 to 11 lbs. Let's hope that is a typo. And it still needs the aluminum tube.
They have it listed as 6.2lbs/19.4 barrel …. its more likely 7lbs as stated on pyramyds site with the regular bolt action ,with 17.7 barrel ... I wonder when the side lever will be available ? it should be soon next month ? as they have now listed it ….
I just bought the Hatsan Vectis under lever composite gun from Hatsan usa{$260 shipped refurb} , weighed by Steve {AEAC you tube} at 6.8lbs ,and that it has the best trigger when adjusted right of any Hatsan that he has shot with its new composite trigger ….so when I get it in I will have to check it all out. I did not buy the gun for looks.... more for utility if you drop it in the woods you wont hurt it ...
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I got this in my email... Can you guys spot the changes?!
https://hatsanairgunsusa.com/product/flashpup-syn-qe/?mc_cid=6914128001&mc_eid=caf1542919
The side lever action. Must be one heavy side lever, though, as it says the weight has ballooned from 7 to 11 lbs. Let's hope that is a typo. And it still needs the aluminum tube.
They have it listed as 6.2lbs/19.4 barrel …. its more likely 7lbs as stated on pyramyds site with the regular bolt action ,with 17.7 barrel ... I wonder when the side lever will be available ? it should be soon next month ? as they have now listed it ….
I just bought the Hatsan Vectis under lever composite gun from Hatsan usa{$260 shipped refurb} , weighed by Steve {AEAC you tube} at 6.8lbs ,and that it has the best trigger when adjusted right of any Hatsan that he has shot with its new composite trigger ….so when I get it in I will have to check it all out. I did not buy the gun for looks.... more for utility if you drop it in the woods you wont hurt it ...
First of all, it's a Hatsan, so dropping it in the woods won't make any of our guns look any worse,lol. Hatsans aren't known for their looks after all :D I must admit, some of the wood stocked guns did come with good looking wood. I haven't had any issues getting the triggers on the regular or BP Flashes adjusted to my liking. I have seen a few people that had issues, but I don't know how much adjusting they did. I just adjust the rear most screw, until I get the pull weight light enough, and leave at that. I do appreciate a good trigger, but I'm certainly not a trigger snob. As long as it is predictable and around 2lbs, I'm happy.
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I got this in my email... Can you guys spot the changes?!
https://hatsanairgunsusa.com/product/flashpup-syn-qe/?mc_cid=6914128001&mc_eid=caf1542919
The side lever action. Must be one heavy side lever, though, as it says the weight has ballooned from 7 to 11 lbs. Let's hope that is a typo. And it still needs the aluminum tube.
They have it listed as 6.2lbs/19.4 barrel …. its more likely 7lbs as stated on pyramyds site with the regular bolt action ,with 17.7 barrel ... I wonder when the side lever will be available ? it should be soon next month ? as they have now listed it ….
I just bought the Hatsan Vectis under lever composite gun from Hatsan usa{$260 shipped refurb} , weighed by Steve {AEAC you tube} at 6.8lbs ,and that it has the best trigger when adjusted right of any Hatsan that he has shot with its new composite trigger ….so when I get it in I will have to check it all out. I did not buy the gun for looks.... more for utility if you drop it in the woods you wont hurt it ...
First of all, it's a Hatsan, so dropping it in the woods won't make any of our guns look any worse,lol. Hatsans aren't known for their looks after all :D I must admit, some of the wood stocked guns did come with good looking wood. I haven't had any issues getting the triggers on the regular or BP Flashes adjusted to my liking. I have seen a few people that had issues, but I don't know how much adjusting they did. I just adjust the rear most screw, until I get the pull weight light enough, and leave at that. I do appreciate a good trigger, but I'm certainly not a trigger snob. As long as it is predictable and around 2lbs, I'm happy.
Come on now don't blow my cover for buying this gun ! HA ! HA ! but really the barrel on the Vectis is even covered with polymer which would help in drops or the Washougal river area rain down pores ! ;D….
my at44 long wood does have a nice stock perfect shape ,and I do have some really nice finished Richards microfit stocks + boyds stocks on other guns …
plus I live in a rain forest ,and I do have gortex custom gun covers + military issue camo water proof for my body that works the best we have tested in down poor conditions in Washougal river mt area where it rains like crazy ! 100 to 140 inches a year , its loaded with animals you just about trip on them up there , so the Vectis would be a good pic for these conditions …
these are just some of my top reasons from my library of anti dog house reasons /excuses for the wife to buy another airgun that i really don't need ! = vectis ... 8)
but i must have it ! .... ;)
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Hahaha, I'm not judging :D
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Hahaha, I'm not judging :D
Cool .. :D..I was starting to feel guilty on all counts …. :D …. I was just looking at the new side lever on the SFP ,and it kinda looks like the neutronstar side lever, like the same thing ... :o...
…...and somethin else there is a new Hatsan 3 caliber interchangeable barrel system gun now listed called the Hydra qe very interesting
…., and also another ne gun called the Blitz , its semi, and full automatic up to .30 cal with a rather large clip 17 or 18 shots I think ….Yeah I know I got use for that one … The squirrels ,and the rest of the critters on the mt would be scared of that one …. :D :D :D :D :o
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Woah, Sidelever? Glad I waited on getting a pup, I wonder if it'll be optional for the wood flashpup also? I was leaning wood until this.
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Hahaha, I'm not judging :D
Cool .. :D..I was starting to feel guilty on all counts …. :D …. I was just looking at the new side lever on the SFP ,and it kinda looks like the neutronstar side lever, like the same thing ... :o...
…...and somethin else there is a new Hatsan 3 caliber interchangeable barrel system gun now listed called the Hydra qe very interesting
…., and also another ne gun called the Blitz , its semi, and full automatic up to .30 cal with a rather large clip 17 or 18 shots I think ….Yeah I know I got use for that one … The squirrels ,and the rest of the critters on the mt would be scared of that one …. :D :D :D :D :o
I was able to find the Hydra, but not the Blitz. I looks like Hatsan has figured out that they got something right with the Flash based guns. That whole action is just great in it's simplicity, which I love as a tinkerer :D
Woah, Sidelever? Glad I waited on getting a pup, I wonder if it'll be optional for the wood flashpup also? I was leaning wood until this.
I love a side lever, but I gotta say, I don't find myself really wanting it for the Flashpups. Now that I'm used to it, I don't have any issue cocking the bolt. I just put my thumb behind the cheek rest, and cock it with my index finger in one motion. I don't use any arm strength at all doing it. When I'm shooting rested, I don't even have to move my head or hold. I just lift up my hand, cock it, and shoot again without even taking my eye off the target.
On another note, I decided I'm going to give my 24" FX liner derived barrel another chance with slugs. I went ahead and tensioned it with CF, and it is dang solid movement wise. Also, it doesn't look as wonky with that long barrel, since the 20mm CF tube is on there. Hopefully, I can get around to some more testing in a few days when it warms up and isn't raining. It is currently wearing a 15 shot power tune shooting the 27 grain H&N slugs at 956 fps all within 3% :D That longer barrel really extends the shot count on the higher power tunes. I'm quite sure it can do a 20 shot 50 fpe tune, if I want. That is pretty nuts for a .22 with a 165cc air cylinder :o
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Here's a picture of the "wonky" looking 24" barrel o death mounted on the SFP :D It may look funny, but man does it pack a wallop! I will follow up with a re-testing of this barrel, now that it is tensioned.
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Here's a picture of the "wonky" looking 24" barrel o death mounted on the SFP :D It may look funny, but man does it pack a wallop! I will follow up with a re-testing of this barrel, now that it is tensioned.
WOW ! that's clean ...slick looking set up …. I like it …. compact extended high power sniper barrel set up ,I zoomed in on it looks like it came that way from the factory …. nice job Donny .
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Thanks Dan! The black derlin bushings on each end of the CF tube really do clean up the look. You wouldn't know it, but that was a glossy CF tube. I didn't want glossy on a hunter, so I sanded it and got rid of the gloss. It is more of a matte/satin tube now,lol. The real factor is going to be how it shoots. This barrel does great with the JSB Beasts and redesigned Monsters, but I couldn't get it to do well before with slugs. It wasn't tensioned nor as stiff when I tested it before, so I'm hoping this barrel may do better with some slugs now.
It is making power so easily, it would be a shame if I couldn't take advantage of slugs with that power. A 20 shot 50 fpe slug tune sure would be sweet out of it. A 60+fpe magazine's worth tune o devastation would be pretty awesome for tough critters as well. The gun has the power to do both those tunes with heavy pellets, but I really want to be able to do that with slugs...
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Finely got the 20/14 mm CF tube today. I cut it to fit the .25 without using the bushings. I found that cutting a belt sander sandpaper belt open and then cutting it in two longways worked good to open the tube. It slides on tight. But fits great on the barrel and in the barrel band. I sited the pup in at 35 yards. Had to drop it down about 6”. One ragged hole and I am set to take it squirrel hunting Saturday. I still have the other half of the tube to install on the .22. Thanks for all the ideas!
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Finely got the 20/14 mm CF tube today. I cut it to fit the .25 without using the bushings. I found that cutting a belt sander sandpaper belt open and then cutting it in two longways worked good to open the tube. It slides on tight. But fits great on the barrel and in the barrel band. I sited the pup in at 35 yards. Had to drop it down about 6”. One ragged hole and I am set to take it squirrel hunting Saturday. I still have the other half of the tube to install on the .22. Thanks for all the ideas!
Awesome! It looks like a great compact hunter with that Sumo(I'm guessing it is a Sumo) on there, nice work ;) The tree rats should be worried, haha.
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20 shots at 50 FPE is incredible!
That wood flashpup is looking good with the carbon shroud and large LDC.
I just finish a 50mm LDC with baffles, nothing beats volume.
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That is one nice looking can! I have the Ronin. It’s still louder than I would like. Not bad. No problem shooting in the basement. I do need to get rid of the internal noise.
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20 shots at 50 FPE is incredible!
That wood flashpup is looking good with the carbon shroud and large LDC.
I just finish a 50mm LDC with baffles, nothing beats volume.
Nice! LDCs are like (some)engines in some respects, there is no replacement for displacement :D That looks real nice!
I know mine has a 20 shot 50 fpe tune it, because it is still shooting the 27 grain slugs at 930 fps on shot 18! 1/4-1/2 turn on the HS should put it in the sweet spot for 50 fpe pretty easily I think. I imagine the ES will be right at 4% for those 20 shots, but still... I'll take that for hunting. It is in these higher power tunes where that extra barrel length starts to shine! It will still make 50 fpe at 135 bar after all,lol.
I know I mentioned it before, but I want to mention it again, because I feel like many people are probably losing a lot of potential when they are opening up the porting/valve. I know some of you are well aware, but others are likely over looking it. I over looked it myself at first, and just assumed things lined up. When you are going to open up the single exit hole on the valve, pull the gauge and bleed screw, so you can spin the valve in the gun 180 degrees. With the large grub screw removed(that gives access to the transfer), you can see where that valve hole is lining up with the transfer when you rotate the valve in the gun 180 degrees. Every gun I've checked doesn't line up just right. The air exit hole on the valve is a little too far towards the muzzle end, so the transfer hole is only seeing about 3/4 of that hole in the valve.
In other words, don't just drill out that hole in the valve to a bigger size. It still won't line up all the way. Instead, use a carbide cutter bit in a dremel/rotary tool to open up that valve hole more towards the rear of the gun to get the alignment right. You'll end up closer to the o-ring on the end of the valve, but it will be fine. What I do is rotate the valve 180 degrees, then mark the part I need to open up with a pencil. That way, I know exactly how much and where to open up that valve exit hole. That can be a few fpe left on the table. I hope that helps some of you guys :)
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Thane, Darrell, I just thought of this, and maybe you guys already mentioned it and I forgot, but... I wonder how your guns would do if you guys bonded that 14mm x 20mm CF to the barrels as opposed to tensioning it? You'd certainly have a dang stiff barrel, and still get the truss effect with the 20mm OD tube. I don't know if that would end up more rigid in the gun or about the same as the tensioned setup. I would think the end result would work quite well. What do you guys think? I'm just thinking out loud is all.
If I had the right combination of CF floating around I would give it a try myself, but I haven't even got to test my current setup on target yet. Hopefully, I'll be able to this weekend.
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It might help. My only concern on it is, would you be able to center the barrel in the block with out cutting the orings? I mean, you really have to work getting the CF shroud on the barrel and then it just squeezes through the band. Not sure it will line up in the block straight. With out the shroud(s), the barrel has plenty of play to carefully slide into the block. Better yet, add a bull barrel turned to size to start with. If I only had the money and machines to do it!
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It might help. My only concern on it is, would you be able to center the barrel in the block with out cutting the orings? I mean, you really have to work getting the CF shroud on the barrel and then it just squeezes through the band. Not sure it will line up in the block straight. With out the shroud(s), the barrel has plenty of play to carefully slide into the block. Better yet, add a bull barrel turned to size to start with. If I only had the money and machines to do it!
I wonder about the alignment as well, but I'd think it would probably be okay. I mean, it doesn't exactly have a ton of wiggle room as is, but who knows. I don't know if I'd want to do a regular bull barrel. That sucker would add some serious weight!
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Did the SFP with a bonded 19 OD 15 ID carbon tube, very stiff and needed to be bonded because of air gap, but no tensioning effect due to the shroud being locked to the barrel. So the only tension developed is between the LDC shoulder to the end of barrel. So the carbon tube is in contact with breech, but provides little bearing pressure across diameter of tube.
The WFP has the 20 OD 14 ID while tight, still slides on barrel. This allows the LDC to be torqued against the carbon which slides until it comes under tension against breech. The bearing against the breech block is great, definitely limits motion at connection. The barrel is in contact with tube, no bonding needed to increase stiffness. The barrel has no where to flex in the tube, and that 3mm walled tube isn't going anywhere.
It is definitely worth it to open up the 20mm tube. It can be disassembled, no shim to barrel band, and can be tensioned.
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Did the SFP with a bonded 19 OD 15 ID carbon tube, very stiff and needed to be bonded because of air gap, but no tensioning effect due to the shroud being locked to the barrel. So the only tension developed is between the LDC shoulder to the end of barrel. So the carbon tube is in contact with breech, but provides little bearing pressure across diameter of tube.
The WFP has the 20 OD 14 ID while tight, still slides on barrel. This allows the LDC to be torqued against the carbon which slides until it comes under tension against breech. The bearing against the breech block is great, definitely limits motion at connection. The barrel is in contact with tube, no bonding needed to increase stiffness. The barrel has no where to flex in the tube, and that 3mm walled tube isn't going anywhere.
It is definitely worth it to open up the 20mm tube. It can be disassembled, no shim to barrel band, and can be tensioned.
I was just thinking about it, instead of tensioning the barrel, and wondering what if any difference there would be between the bonded or tensioned 20mm OD tube. On one hand you loose the tensioning effect, but on the other you have an extremely stiff barrel that is fitting tightly in the band. I'm sticking with the tensioned myself, simply due to convenience and not having to order more CF, haha.
On another note, I did get a chance to re-test the 24" barrel with slugs. The results are the same, and that barrel will not shoot slugs no matter what. That was the first attempt I made at doing an FX liner barrel, and I'm sure I just got it wrong in the leed in somewhere. On the plus side it is still a laser with the 34 grain beasts, and tensioning helped it with those pellets. It is basically 1/4" groups with those pellets at 30 yards anywhere from 58-65 fpe. I just hate that it doesn't like slugs :(
What would really be nuts, would be to make a 700mm liner barrel at some point. Who knows what kind of power it could make with that?! In .25 I think the 75-80 fpe mark would certainly be a possibility. If these guns could handle a 250 bar fill, it would be insane. Thane, you've got the skills to bottle one of these guns, especially given what you were able to do with that Hatsan "pistol". I don't have that kind of skill or equipment myself :-[
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I got to test out the CF barrel mod yesterday. Went to our family’s farm and my cousin’s farm squirrel hunting. The gun shoots great! It was off and on mist/snow and 37* with no wind at all. Got my limit of squirrels with 1 Grey and 4 Fox. Also picked off a little Red at about 65 yards. Oh ya, and 2 coons. Man them critters raised *(&^ on the corn last fall.
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I got to test out the CF barrel mod yesterday. Went to our family’s farm and my cousin’s farm squirrel hunting. The gun shoots great! It was off and on mist/snow and 37* with no wind at all. Got my limit of squirrels with 1 Grey and 4 Fox. Also picked off a little Red at about 65 yards. Oh ya, and 2 coons. Man them critters raised *(&^ on the corn last fall.
Isn't great when all the tinkering comes together, and you get to put it to work? Nice job!
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I got to test out the CF barrel mod yesterday. Went to our family’s farm and my cousin’s farm squirrel hunting. The gun shoots great! It was off and on mist/snow and 37* with no wind at all. Got my limit of squirrels with 1 Grey and 4 Fox. Also picked off a little Red at about 65 yards. Oh ya, and 2 coons. Man them critters raised *(&^ on the corn last fall.
Wow, Great hunt! 65 yds off hand is incredible.
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I was just thinking about it, instead of tensioning the barrel, and wondering what if any difference there would be between the bonded or tensioned 20mm OD tube. On one hand you loose the tensioning effect, but on the other you have an extremely stiff barrel that is fitting tightly in the band. I'm sticking with the tensioned myself, simply due to convenience and not having to order more CF, haha.
On another note, I did get a chance to re-test the 24" barrel with slugs. The results are the same, and that barrel will not shoot slugs no matter what. That was the first attempt I made at doing an FX liner barrel, and I'm sure I just got it wrong in the leed in somewhere. On the plus side it is still a laser with the 34 grain beasts, and tensioning helped it with those pellets. It is basically 1/4" groups with those pellets at 30 yards anywhere from 58-65 fpe. I just hate that it doesn't like slugs :(
What would really be nuts, would be to make a 700mm liner barrel at some point. Who knows what kind of power it could make with that?! In .25 I think the 75-80 fpe mark would certainly be a possibility. If these guns could handle a 250 bar fill, it would be insane. Thane, you've got the skills to bottle one of these guns, especially given what you were able to do with that Hatsan "pistol". I don't have that kind of skill or equipment myself :-[
The fact that your FX liner is precise with pellets is in itself an excellent result.
I have very little experience with slugs, but what I've seen is that slugs perform with a very high bias requiring a lot of trial sizes/weights/velocities.
It was dumb luck for me with the WFP, heavy choked barrel, shoots the FX slugs with great accuracy, sub 1/4" at 30 yds. The 33 FPE is not as great, but the accuracy is one of my best results to date.
An offset bottle block could be entirely made on the mini-lathe with a 4 jaw chuck, one of the best upgrades for lathe operations. I have all the parts and have been blocking out different configurations. SFP has little space for a bottle with the factory barrel length, forward trigger location and larger LDC. The AT-P2 bottling I started with a lower power and speed goal to reduce noise 30FPE 820FPS. The bottle is entirely in front of the trigger and under the QE shroud leaving room for the telescoping carbon fiber shroud extension.
So I'm still working out the goal for the SFP, high power with a short barrel is an air hog in need of a bottle with little room for the bottle. :P
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I got to test out the CF barrel mod yesterday. Went to our family’s farm and my cousin’s farm squirrel hunting. The gun shoots great! It was off and on mist/snow and 37* with no wind at all. Got my limit of squirrels with 1 Grey and 4 Fox. Also picked off a little Red at about 65 yards. Oh ya, and 2 coons. Man them critters raised *(&^ on the corn last fall.
Thanks. I just left our woods and was heading across the field to my cousins. I seen him sitting on a broken limb when I was about 100 yards or so out. I tried sneaking closer. But at 65 he got squirrelly! Didn’t think I could get any closer out in the open field. Anyway, do you guys have a link for a stiffer, shorter spring for the .25 WFP?
Wow, Great hunt! 65 yds off hand is incredible.
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I got to test out the CF barrel mod yesterday. Went to our family’s farm and my cousin’s farm squirrel hunting. The gun shoots great! It was off and on mist/snow and 37* with no wind at all. Got my limit of squirrels with 1 Grey and 4 Fox. Also picked off a little Red at about 65 yards. Oh ya, and 2 coons. Man them critters raised *(&^ on the corn last fall.
Thanks. I just left our woods and was heading across the field to my cousins. I seen him sitting on a broken limb when I was about 100 yards or so out. I tried sneaking closer. But at 65 he got squirrelly! Didn’t think I could get any closer out in the open field. Anyway, do you guys have a link for a stiffer, shorter spring for the .25 WFP?
Wow, Great hunt! 65 yds off hand is incredible.
I got my spring(s) from Ace Hardware. They usually have a pretty good selection of compression springs. I think Thane got his from there too. I did have to cut it to the proper length needed, since it was a bit longer than factory.
I was just thinking about it, instead of tensioning the barrel, and wondering what if any difference there would be between the bonded or tensioned 20mm OD tube. On one hand you loose the tensioning effect, but on the other you have an extremely stiff barrel that is fitting tightly in the band. I'm sticking with the tensioned myself, simply due to convenience and not having to order more CF, haha.
On another note, I did get a chance to re-test the 24" barrel with slugs. The results are the same, and that barrel will not shoot slugs no matter what. That was the first attempt I made at doing an FX liner barrel, and I'm sure I just got it wrong in the leed in somewhere. On the plus side it is still a laser with the 34 grain beasts, and tensioning helped it with those pellets. It is basically 1/4" groups with those pellets at 30 yards anywhere from 58-65 fpe. I just hate that it doesn't like slugs :(
What would really be nuts, would be to make a 700mm liner barrel at some point. Who knows what kind of power it could make with that?! In .25 I think the 75-80 fpe mark would certainly be a possibility. If these guns could handle a 250 bar fill, it would be insane. Thane, you've got the skills to bottle one of these guns, especially given what you were able to do with that Hatsan "pistol". I don't have that kind of skill or equipment myself :-[
The fact that your FX liner is precise with pellets is in itself an excellent result.
I have very little experience with slugs, but what I've seen is that slugs perform with a very high bias requiring a lot of trial sizes/weights/velocities.
It was dumb luck for me with the WFP, heavy choked barrel, shoots the FX slugs with great accuracy, sub 1/4" at 30 yds. The 33 FPE is not as great, but the accuracy is one of my best results to date.
An offset bottle block could be entirely made on the mini-lathe with a 4 jaw chuck, one of the best upgrades for lathe operations. I have all the parts and have been blocking out different configurations. SFP has little space for a bottle with the factory barrel length, forward trigger location and larger LDC. The AT-P2 bottling I started with a lower power and speed goal to reduce noise 30FPE 820FPS. The bottle is entirely in front of the trigger and under the QE shroud leaving room for the telescoping carbon fiber shroud extension.
So I'm still working out the goal for the SFP, high power with a short barrel is an air hog in need of a bottle with little room for the bottle. :P
I've made two FX liner barrels at this point. The second one was a 500mm liner and it does better with a few different slugs. That's what makes me pretty sure I messed up the first one in some way that just won't work with slugs. I think I opened up the leed in too much, so they aren't always hitting the barrel the same when fired. I've literally tried every weight and size that NSA and H&N offer in the longer barrel, and it just ain't gonna happen,lol. Thankfully, that barrel does just fine with the heavy pellets though. I've toyed with the idea of doing a 700mm liner, but man, that is one long barrel! Granted, the SFP(with LDC) would still be a good 5" shorter than my Flash rifle was with a 24" barrel and pickle. Thane, I'd love to see what kind of power your gun would make with a longer barrel in .25! By my estimates, my gun picked up around 10+ fps per inch fwiw.
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Hi, Donny. I'm kind of lost on the Flash platform, but I know what the inside of an AT44 looks like. I'm sure I can find a video on disassembling the Flash, so without necessarily going into a great deal of detail, could you, and/or others, point out some differences in the mechanics and what you think about them? For example, how does the Flash address hammer bounce?
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The Flash models uses a greatly simplified, single breach block design unlike the AT44 2 parts (breach bolted onto hammer+valve+airtube combo).
The valve and air-tube are similar to AT44, but the valve is held captive with set screws. Transfer port is just a hole in breach block with no additional parts.
Flashes stack the Pellet Probe over the Bolt/Lever, over the hammer with a single rod penetrating all three. Rod is fixed to the probe, travels loosely through the lever bolt and into a slot in the top of the hammer. This allows all three to be pulled back until the sear catches the hammer and then the pellet probe and lever bolt only go forward loading the pellet into the breach. The lever bolt has a sprung loaded catch to stop hammer rebound, hammer rides under the sloped portion of catch and rebounds against the 90° end. Spring length can also be adjusted to maintain a free flight space and keep pressure off valve stem.
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The Flash models uses a greatly simplified, single breach block design unlike the AT44 2 parts (breach bolted onto hammer+valve+airtube combo).
The valve and air-tube are similar to AT44, but the valve is held captive with set screws. Transfer port is just a hole in breach block with no additional parts.
Flashes stack the Pellet Probe over the Bolt/Lever, over the hammer with a single rod penetrating all three. Rod is fixed to the probe, travels loosely through the lever bolt and into a slot in the top of the hammer. This allows all three to be pulled back until the sear catches the hammer and then the pellet probe and lever bolt only go forward loading the pellet into the breach. The lever bolt has a sprung loaded catch to stop hammer rebound, hammer rides under the sloped portion of catch and rebounds against the 90° end. Spring length can also be adjusted to maintain a free flight space and keep pressure off valve stem.
So, hammer spring can be adjusted? Externally or only with the stock off?
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So, hammer spring can be adjusted? Externally or only with the stock off?
Yes, stock off, as it ships from the factory.
Drill one hole in the rear stock and enlarge bolt lever rear slot to uncover set screw that locks the grub screw in hammer... then you can adjust spring tension with stock on.
Donny tapped the rear spring retension bolt, added a set screw for some slick 1 wrench adjusting (still needs a hole added to rear of stock).
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So, hammer spring can be adjusted? Externally or only with the stock off?
Yes, stock off, as it ships from the factory.
Drill one hole in the rear stock and enlarge bolt lever rear slot to uncover set screw that locks the grub screw in hammer... then you can adjust spring tension with stock on.
Donny tapped the rear spring retension bolt, added a set screw for some slick 1 wrench adjusting (still needs a hole added to rear of stock).
Neat! Good to know. Thanks. What is your opinion re this design over the AT44, especially regarding ease of maintenance/repair and potential for accuracy? I always felt that the removable cylinder, which turned out (for me, anyway) to be not much of an advantage, might be an impediment to accuracy or consistency due to the lack of rigidity. Goodness knows I had enough trouble in that regard. Maybe Donny will chime in, too, when he can.
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I have 4 AT-44 variants which I have tooled on pretty hard. The huge advantage of the removable air tube for me was easy access to the valve over the extra tube capacities.
Fortunately the AT-44 valve tuning tricks work for the Flashes.
I do not miss the AT-44 wishbone bounce device, anti-double feed parts, extra magazine bolt, 2 part receiver, plastic spring retainer, transfer port tube, dumbell shaped hammer, flex in the receiver due to overcut at magazine.
Gripes on the flash; rough bolt operation, plastic rail risers, Plastic barrel band/trigger assembly, still has a non-standard rail, no lever option (available soon).
I find the flash to be a more elegant solution, fewer moving parts, lighter and more simple to modify. A couple of tear downs and you'll appreciate the turk's efforts.
I know Donny has his own list.
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Thanks, Thane!
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Sorry guys, I'm slow to get on here :D I've modded the heck out of AT44s and Bullboss with great results. I did like the removable cylinder for swapping tunes easily, and they can be great guns. Once I had them dialed in, they were extremely dependable.
I completely agree with Thane on the design aspects. I much prefer the way the Flash is put together over the AT44. It is so much simpler to work on. If someone came to me and said I'll give you an AT44 or a Flash, I would pick the Flash every time. I wouldn't even have to think about it. I like the way the Flash is put together that much ;) It is simple and effective. The way the de-bounce works in the Flash makes it very effective and reliable. Basically, you won't have to think about it in the Flash at all. They can be every bit as efficient as the AT guns for sure(if not more).
The biggest difference you'd have to adjust to over the AT44 is the straight pull bolt vs the side lever of the AT44. I'm used to it, and I never find myself wishing it were a side lever to be honest. This also adds to the simplicity. Some guns do have a bit of a rough cocking action, but it tends to smooth out after going through some pellets. You can also polish things up to remedy it immediately. Then there's the weight, or lack of it in the Flash. As Thane mentioned, the HS is adjustable, but adjusted a little differently. On the pups, you can easily mod them to adjust the HS with the stock on the gun. On the rifle, I haven't figured out an easy way to mod it to adjust the HS with the stock on, so you will have to remove it from the stock to adjust on the rifle for sure.
Power wise, they are capable of about the same power of an AT44. Considering they have a 17.7" barrel, that's an accomplishment. With a longer barrel, they can make more power than an AT44(even the long). Just like Thane said, the Flash will win you over the first time you take it apart. It is simple and it works. None of this is to say the AT44 isn't a good gun, because it is. The Flash just accomplishes the same thing with less parts/weight/complexity and simplicity. Oh, I forgot another benefit of the Flash... The magazine is higher capacity, AND it can hold longer pellets too!
Where you wondering about the pups or the rifle?
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Sorry guys, I'm slow to get on here :D I've modded the heck out of AT44s and Bullboss with great results. I did like the removable cylinder for swapping tunes easily, and they can be great guns. Once I had them dialed in, they were extremely dependable.
I completely agree with Thane on the design aspects. I much prefer the way the Flash is put together over the AT44. It is so much simpler to work on. If someone came to me and said I'll give you an AT44 or a Flash, I would pick the Flash every time. I wouldn't even have to think about it. I like the way the Flash is put together that much ;) It is simple and effective. The way the de-bounce works in the Flash makes it very effective and reliable. Basically, you won't have to think about it in the Flash at all. They can be every bit as efficient as the AT guns for sure(if not more).
The biggest difference you'd have to adjust to over the AT44 is the straight pull bolt vs the side lever of the AT44. I'm used to it, and I never find myself wishing it were a side lever to be honest. This also adds to the simplicity. Some guns do have a bit of a rough cocking action, but it tends to smooth out after going through some pellets. You can also polish things up to remedy it immediately. Then there's the weight, or lack of it in the Flash. As Thane mentioned, the HS is adjustable, but adjusted a little differently. On the pups, you can easily mod them to adjust the HS with the stock on the gun. On the rifle, I haven't figured out an easy way to mod it to adjust the HS with the stock on, so you will have to remove it from the stock to adjust on the rifle for sure.
Power wise, they are capable of about the same power of an AT44. Considering they have a 17.7" barrel, that's an accomplishment. With a longer barrel, they can make more power than an AT44(even the long). Just like Thane said, the Flash will win you over the first time you take it apart. It is simple and it works. None of this is to say the AT44 isn't a good gun, because it is. The Flash just accomplishes the same thing with less parts/weight/complexity and simplicity. Oh, I forgot another benefit of the Flash... The magazine is higher capacity, AND it can hold longer pellets too!
Where you wondering about the pups or the rifle?
Sorry, I should have been more specific. The pups for sure. Thanks for the info.
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Jere, I think you'd adjust well to one, if you took that dive. I actually use my thumb and index finger to cock the pups, and it works pretty well for me. I don't have giant hands either. I do think you'd quickly appreciate the simplicity of these guns, and the weight is a big improvement over the AT series as well.
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Jere, I think you'd adjust well to one, if you took that dive. I actually use my thumb and index finger to cock the pups, and it works pretty well for me. I don't have giant hands either. I do think you'd quickly appreciate the simplicity of these guns, and the weight is a big improvement over the AT series as well.
:D
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Here are some pics of my Flashpup S showing how I improved the ergonomics to suit my cheek and shoulder fit. I used a belt sander to shape the receiver. This allowed me a nice cheek weld with a lower and more rigid optic mounting solution.
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That's interesting! Do have any more close up pics of how the rail is mounted? I'm curious if you have any POI shifts with that set up too. I(and I'm sure others too) want to see more how you did that rail mount.
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That's interesting! Do have any more close up pics of how the rail is mounted? I'm curious if you have any POI shifts with that set up too. I(and I'm sure others too) want to see more how you did that rail mount.
It's an Air Venturi Intermount made for the Benjamin Sheridan.
I also had to sculpt and grind the butt pad to fit my shoulder.
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That's interesting! Do have any more close up pics of how the rail is mounted? I'm curious if you have any POI shifts with that set up too. I(and I'm sure others too) want to see more how you did that rail mount.
It's an Air Venturi Intermount made for the Benjamin Sheridan.
I was looking for an insert inside that front rail mount, and you got it covered ;) Nice job!
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What would it cost for one of those LW barrels?
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That's interesting! Do have any more close up pics of how the rail is mounted? I'm curious if you have any POI shifts with that set up too. I(and I'm sure others too) want to see more how you did that rail mount.
It's an Air Venturi Intermount made for the Benjamin Sheridan.
I also had to sculpt and grind the butt pad to fit my shoulder.
Does the intermount work better on the hatsan than the Crosman air guns?
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That's interesting! Do have any more close up pics of how the rail is mounted? I'm curious if you have any POI shifts with that set up too. I(and I'm sure others too) want to see more how you did that rail mount.
It's an Air Venturi Intermount made for the Benjamin Sheridan.
I also had to sculpt and grind the butt pad to fit my shoulder.
Does the intermount work better on the hatsan than the Crosman air guns?
Fits like a glove.
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nice job
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nice job
Yes, sanded the aluminum with 80 grit on the belt sander. That washer is just a spacer.
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yea i rember on the threads on the flash pup they go back a good ways then there like a thin sholder ends up haveing a gap i used a black on ring on mine to seal it to carbon shroude i cut the sharousd just a hare to short looks good on action you did a good jobe matching in back
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yea i rember on the threads on the flash pup they go back a good ways then there like a thin sholder ends up haveing a gap i used a black on ring on mine to seal it to carbon shroude i cut the sharousd just a hare to short looks good on action you did a good jobe matching in back
how did you get the metal alumnion to match back so good what did you use
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On the cheek rest? Just some black spray paint.
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i may do mine looks good may i ask why did you haft to moce weaver rail so far up the rifle did it make it better for your head i mean where head sets i noticed on my bull pups its like uyou got to place face on top of action dont really fell right
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i may do mine looks good may i ask why did you haft to moce weaver rail so far up the rifle did it make it better for your head i mean where head sets i noticed on my bull pups its like uyou got to place face on top of action dont really fell right
I mounted it in front of the barrel band so I wouldn't change my POI every time I removed the barrel. It's a RDS so it has unlimited eye relief. If you're using a scope you'd need to move the intermount behind the barrel band.
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i may grind down my action yours looks great
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i may grind down my action yours looks great
Thanks, I'm happy with the way it fits me now.
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I bet you guys thought I was done doing things to my SFP didn't you? I've been sick, but finally felt well enough today to finish up my latest shenanigans. Well, I decided to just go full nuts, and make a 700mm slug liner barrel for it,lol. I've come up with a name for these FX slug liner barrels I've been making. I'm gonna call them Thug liners,hahaha! I came up with that name, because I'm basically totally misusing those FX liners :D I haven't even put the gun back together or did any target testing. I did shoot a few over the chrony for the fun of it.
I got few little bits I need to fix/change, and I may change out the hammer spring to a shorter stiffer one. I ordered some springs to play with. I made brass inserts/guide pieces to add a little weight to the hammer and keep the spring from bowing when under really heavy compression. I slapped the thug liner in the gun and did a few power tests to see what that 27.5" barrel could do. I'm getting a "pop" at full tilt, and I suspect it is the spring leaning on the valve so hard that the valve isn't fully closed when the pellet leaves the barrel. It may be an o-ring somewhere too. I know it shouldn't be an o-ring, because I checked and double checked them all, but still possible. There could be a tolerance issue causing some blow by somewhere. I should get the answer to that when I try some other springs though. The pop goes away when I lower the power level. I'm pushing the gun as hard as it can take right now, so anything is possible. I'll figure that out one way or the other when I have more time for troubleshooting.
Anywho, you guys ready for some CRAZY numbers?? First, let me say these numbers are in no way a tune or level I intend to actually use. They were only to see what the gun is capable of, and no the gun will not do a decent string at these velocities. Peak power was reached with the 34 grain JSB Beasts. The Beasts topped out at, drum roll.....
1045 fps for 82 FPE :o :o :o I will say, I backed out the HS after that and did 6 shots with all of them over 1000 fps and averaging 1015 fps. That tells me a 10 shot 70 fpe tune is certainly feasible, and really makes me wonder what kind of 20 shot power tune I could get. Next, I turned the HS back up and I stuck an H&N 30 grain slug in it, and it was 1081 fps! These brief numbers will conclude my quest to see what the max power out of a Flashpup can be :D
After I get my new springs in, I will try and give it a usable tune, and continue on to target testing in the 50-70 fpe ranges. That will likely be in a week or so. Everybody say a prayer for my thug liner, and that I did all the machining correctly, and that it will like some heavy slugs!
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82 FPE!
Incredible and without balanced valve assistance.
So where are you sourcing the FX slug liners?
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:D
I've got them from a few different places. Usually from whoever has them in stock. Palm Beach Air Guns, PA, and the last one came from Trenier. Pam Beach is, by far, the fastest shipper, and easy to talk to. I've chatted with those guys on FB a few times.
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Donny, do you think that the pop that you are hearing could be the pellet breaking the sound barrier? The speed of sound is about 1100 FPS but can be faster in thick air, or slower in thin air. The 1045 FPS was after you backed off the hammer spring?
Hunter
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i took off my cheak riser to day i see what you guys mean 2 small bolts to hold it in place after ajusting it rinkey dink i see took off the side of action and grinded away the 22mm and 11mm scope mounts on top of action i going to do mine like yours looks so much nicer i wish hatsan would get some more of the solid rails in stock i used a weaver rail from my bulley on the flash pup its hollow in side i like the solid mounts better
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82fpe! those long barrels do amazing things. Nice work!
Show us some more pics of your FX liners, maybe some step by step?
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i took off my cheak riser to day i see what you guys mean 2 small bolts to hold it in place after ajusting it rinkey dink i see took off the side of action and grinded away the 22mm and 11mm scope mounts on top of action i going to do mine like yours looks so much nicer i wish hatsan would get some more of the solid rails in stock i used a weaver rail from my bulley on the flash pup its hollow in side i like the solid mounts better
Wow, that's some pretty aggressive surgery, looking forward to seeing how you put it back together.
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1045 fps for 82 FPE :o :o :o I will say, I backed out the HS after that and did 6 shots with all of them over 1000 fps and averaging 1015 fps. That tells me a 10 shot 70 fpe tune is certainly feasible, and really makes me wonder what kind of 20 shot power tune I could get. Next, I turned the HS back up and I stuck an H&N 30 grain slug in it, and it was 1081 fps! These brief numbers will conclude my quest to see what the max power out of a Flashpup can be :D
Wow, that puts you close to .22 rimfire territory energy wise. A 40gr .22 at 1000FPS is 89FPE.
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i liked how you did you rifle is this right 82 pounds energy from a 25 cal I MODED THE BULLEUY ALSO ITS HEAVY
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Donny, do you think that the pop that you are hearing could be the pellet breaking the sound barrier? The speed of sound is about 1100 FPS but can be faster in thick air, or slower in thin air. The 1045 FPS was after you backed off the hammer spring?
Hunter
I wish that was the problem, but it isn't. The 1045 fps was with the 34 grain Beasts at full tilt. I still had the pop at 1000 fps, but not quite as bad. I'm pretty sure the valve/HS combo is the culprit. I also took the valve seat to borderline territory, so I had to use way too much pre-load to hit that speed, and it was leaning on the valve pretty hard. I'm gonna make a more sane valve seat and put back in there, and change out the spring to a shorter one. I think that'll take care of the problem. I may lose a little fps on the top end, but I won't be shooting the gun that hot in real life situations anyway. I literally just finished the barrel last night and threw it together for a "fun" test, haha. I'll know for sure what the issue is in a day or two ;)
82fpe! those long barrels do amazing things. Nice work!
Show us some more pics of your FX liners, maybe some step by step?
Thug liners man, thug liners,lol! I'll try and show a little more info on how I do it when I have more time, and can take some good pics. The short version is I make the part that fits into the breech out of brass, and bore it out to the exact diameter of the liner down to within 1/4-3/8" of the barrel port. Then I use a combination of epoxy, and set screws to secure the liner in the brass piece. After that I sleeve/bond carbon fiber onto the remaining part of the liner to bring the OD of the entire barrel up to 16mm(with solid carbon). I leave the last 1.5" of the liner exposed, and machine an aluminum section that is 1/2-20 threaded to fix to the end of the barrel. I use JB Weld and tiny set screws to secure that piece. I make sure all machined bits fit very snug prior to epoxy or JB Weld. They are very sturdy, and don't weigh much at all. I also tension them when mounted with 20mm OD CF tubing. Believe it or not, that 27.5" one probably weighs a little less than the factory 17" barrel.
1045 fps for 82 FPE :o :o :o I will say, I backed out the HS after that and did 6 shots with all of them over 1000 fps and averaging 1015 fps. That tells me a 10 shot 70 fpe tune is certainly feasible, and really makes me wonder what kind of 20 shot power tune I could get. Next, I turned the HS back up and I stuck an H&N 30 grain slug in it, and it was 1081 fps! These brief numbers will conclude my quest to see what the max power out of a Flashpup can be :D
Wow, that puts you close to .22 rimfire territory energy wise. A 40gr .22 at 1000FPS is 89FPE.
Yep, it is getting up there for an airgun :D I honestly didn't expect it to make that much power, so I was pleasantly surprised! I expected it to make it over 75 fpe, but didn't think it was gonna make 80 fpe. Either way, I'll take it!
i liked how you did you rifle is this right 82 pounds energy from a 25 cal I MODED THE BULLEUY ALSO ITS HEAVY
It is a .22, not a .25 ;)
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Did some accessorizing, bipod and an exceptional fit Strike Industries Viper MFS Monopod.
Remove the LDC and pods, and stow it all in a triple racquet tennis bag, keeps the natives calm... ;)
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That's nice Thane. I like that compact setup, and the racquet bag! Grab and go right there ;)
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is that a custom ldc or is that a rocker 1 ldc looks great is it about 2 inch o/d
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is that a custom ldc or is that a rocker 1 ldc looks great is it about 2 inch o/d
I think Thane made that one himself, but I'm not positive.
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82fpe! those long barrels do amazing things. Nice work!
Show us some more pics of your FX liners, maybe some step by step?
Here's a bit more info Mike D ;) I attached a picture of the 500mm liner barrel I made, along with the 20mm carbon sleeve for tensioning the barrel. The barrel itself is 16mm OD. I also attached a "cutaway diagram" showing what I did a bit better. I made all tolerances where everything fits together as small as I could get them, for a tight fit. I also bonded it all together with 4-40 set screws. I used the really small set screws and ground them down to surface level where needed. I used the small set screws to avoid putting too much pressure on the liner. On top of the set screws I bonded it with slow cure 2 ton epoxy with the tightest fitting parts and the carbon fiber. I used JB Weld on the metal to metal bits if I could. Between the set screws and epoxy/JB Weld, it is SOLID. The best part is how light the barrel is. Even the 700mm one I'm working on now probably weighs less than the factory barrel! Let me know if you guys have any questions about the process, or if I didn't explain something well.
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is that a custom ldc or is that a rocker 1 ldc looks great is it about 2 inch o/d
Thanks! Good eye it is 50mm (2") LDC with alum baffles, huge volume for .25 at higher power.
The diagram is great and I'm thinking seriously about copying it. Are the set screws to hold it all in place while the epoxy cures? Did you do the final turning on the breach end brass after bonding, and cutting the 1/2-20 threads?
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is that a custom ldc or is that a rocker 1 ldc looks great is it about 2 inch o/d
Thanks! Good eye it is 50mm (2") LDC with alum baffles, huge volume for .25 at higher power.
The diagram is great and I'm thinking seriously about copying it. Are the set screws to hold it all in place while the epoxy cures? Did you do the final turning on the breach end brass after bonding, and cutting the 1/2-20 threads?
I got the idea from Knife and Hobbyman(Mike/Denis) when they were talking about making barrels with liners from Brownells. I just applied that same thought process to the FX liners. It seems to work quite well, and I've experienced zero issues with rigidity or sturdiness. The set screws are for both holding it in place while the epoxy/jb weld cures, and for reinforcement too. That reinforcement part is especially true for the muzzle end with the 1/2-20 aluminum piece. I used 8 set screws evenly spaced on that piece, since it will get more "abuse" with threading LDCs etc..
I did all the final turning on the aluminum adapter prior to assembly. It is such a snug fit, that it has no choice but to be square, and I didn't want to add stress to it after assembly by turning it then. I haven't had any clipping issues or anything like that. On the brass piece, I did all the work to it prior to assembly, except for the final leade in work. Same case there with fitment. I just make sure all the tolerances are as close as I can get them so it is square. I did wait until final assembly and cure to do the final leade in part, because I wanted to take that up to just inside the lead edge of the liner to make sure there was a smooth transition from brass to the liner. I didn't want to do all the turning after final assembly, because you'd be hard pressed to get carbon tubing that will be "barrel blank" straight/round.
If you do a .25 liner, you may want to change from a brass thimble to a steel one, since the walls of the thimble will have to be thinner with a .25 liner. The part that goes into the breech is 12mm. The .22 liner is a hair over 8mm, whereas the .25 liners are a little over 9mm OD. Those brass walls will be getting kinda thin with a .25 liner, even though I doubt it would make a whole lot of difference in the scheme of things. Having a longer and lighter barrel sure isn't a bad deal though :D I made another diagram to show some variations on how I did the sleeving/brass piece between the liner barrels I've done so far. The diagram I posted earlier is how I did the 500mm liner. This diagram shows the 600 and 700mm liners. I basically did variations of interlocking the sleeving, or using the breech fitment to further strengthen the transition from the brass to carbon sections at the breech area. I hope that makes sense?
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I think I got my HS and the barrel where I want it. I already have the bushings for the shroud made. Now, all I gotta do is get my shroud cut and put some slugs on a target :D I'm using 17mm ID x 20mm OD CF tubing for the shroud.
I ended up taking a couple of coils off the hammer spring, and now the gun is much happier. My pop turned out to be the barrel o-ring, a 2mm cross section o-ring fixed that. I adjusted the HS to where the hammer is just barely touching the valve with zero pre-load, and ran a string over the chrony to see where she was running. That yielded 16 shots just under 3% averaging 950 fps with the 30 grain slugs. At this particular tune, the efficiency is pretty dang good for a .22 at 60fpe(1.43) :o If I wanted to stretch my spread to 4%, it would be very near 20 shots at 59-60fpe, and a two magazine 24 shot tune in the 55fpe range wouldn't be that much of a stretch I don't think. All of that out of a 165cc cylinder! The power level would be a bit higher with the 34 grain Beasts I'm sure, since they will seal better than the slugs(and are heavier). The gun is surprisingly quiet at these levels too!
By the numbers, this baby is humming. All that won't matter if it isn't accurate, so I'm not counting my chickens until I get some lead on target...
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Thanks for the sketches, and that is an incredible yield and no regulator, solid!
Seeing less of a reason to bottle, and looking toward the FX barrel liner.
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Thanks for the sketches, and that is an incredible yield and no regulator, solid!
Seeing less of a reason to bottle, and looking toward the FX barrel liner.
Glad to help, and I'd love to see you do one of these on your gun! I shudder to think what it would do in .25 :o I still think a regulated bottle would be pretty awesome, but in all honesty, the shot count ain't bad. The longer barrels give you a lot more wiggle room in that department. Best of all, it doesn't add weight, so the gun doesn't lose it's easy hunting character.
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Small update... I got the shroud finished and everything cinched down. It is solid with zero movement. Without the pickle on the end, the gun comes in around 36". The Huma with an extra section puts over all length with the pickle around 45"(over 9" long LDC). With that 27.5" barrel t is still very manageable, with virtually no weight gain. The center of gravity is just behind the trigger guard and shouldering is very stable. I just screw the LDC off at the first section and leave that base section attached, and it still fits easily in my tactical gun case :) Also, no clipping, even with the Huma LDC at full length. I'll try and get some pictures and target time in tomorrow with it.
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that 2 inch ldc looks great and the barrle he built with liner looks killer you guys shure know how to mod these guns anf so far ever thing looks good
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82fpe! those long barrels do amazing things. Nice work!
Show us some more pics of your FX liners, maybe some step by step?
Here's a bit more info Mike D ;) I attached a picture of the 500mm liner barrel I made, along with the 20mm carbon sleeve for tensioning the barrel. The barrel itself is 16mm OD. I also attached a "cutaway diagram" showing what I did a bit better. I made all tolerances where everything fits together as small as I could get them, for a tight fit. I also bonded it all together with 4-40 set screws. I used the really small set screws and ground them down to surface level where needed. I used the small set screws to avoid putting too much pressure on the liner. On top of the set screws I bonded it with slow cure 2 ton epoxy with the tightest fitting parts and the carbon fiber. I used JB Weld on the metal to metal bits if I could. Between the set screws and epoxy/JB Weld, it is SOLID. The best part is how light the barrel is. Even the 700mm one I'm working on now probably weighs less than the factory barrel! Let me know if you guys have any questions about the process, or if I didn't explain something well.
Very cool stuff, thank you for sharing. I really appreciate the time you put into illustrating your methods. The only thing I'll add is a recommendation to try some Loctite 638 for applications such as bonding the thimble to the liner, bonding the liner to the CF. it is some amazing stuff---very forgiving until you put a little heat on it, then it is rock solid, will never move again without tearing things up. Flows pretty good and cleans up easily with acetone.
Awesome work!
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I've never used the 638 before, I'll have to look into that! I bet it would work well on metal to metal for sure. I use the epoxy on the CF, because it bonds extremely well to epoxy(given it is essentially carbon fibers held together with epoxy). I've had really good luck with the newer formula of JB Weld too(5200psi strength). I've cranked on these barrels pretty hard, and haven't had any issues.
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I got to do a little testing today, and it looks like the NSA 28.5 grain is the slug this barrel LOVES at the current state of tune(970 fps). I didn't have time to test a bunch of slugs or to really play with the speed much. I just tried a few the way the tune was. I definitely got this barrel right I think. Pretty much every slug I tried was under an inch at 30 yards, and a few were under 1/2", but the NSA 28.5 was same hole. That tells me, the barrel could probably do well with a number of the slugs if I find the speed they like! Just from my quick testing, it would seem .218 is what the barrel prefers. Below are a few picks of the Flash Monster with it's crazy long barrel :D That LDC is over 9" long, and I took one with all but the base section removed to show the length I put it in the case at. It is still plenty portable, and I can take sections out of that Huma LDC, if I'm not trying to be super back yard friendly. I also included a 5 shot group with the NSA 28.5 grain shooting around 970 fps, .218 size. Time to place a slug order!
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Did some accessorizing, bipod and an exceptional fit Strike Industries Viper MFS Monopod.
Remove the LDC and pods, and stow it all in a triple racquet tennis bag, keeps the natives calm... ;)
Did you have to modify the Monopod? Also, what bipod are you using?
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I think I'm going to be watching for a good sale on these. How easy is it to remove the Flash barrel for cleaning? Also, do the barrels have the removable breech caps, like the AT-44, to make it easy to get to the breech o-ring?
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Did you have to modify the Monopod? Also, what bipod are you using?
This is the sale:
Bipod is an ACCU-TAC Chinese clone by GBO (Green Blob Outdoor-confidence inspiring) $40 vs. $286. No modifying beyond screw tightening and some lock-tite.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01JW60K1G/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01JW60K1G/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Original Strike Industries Viper MFS Monopod $18.95, added some adhesive backed felt to tighten grip and reduce poly scarring, some Vibra-tite VC-3 to provide thread friction:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0775XJMDY/?coliid=IA4LU8QO35NOO&colid=31U5PXXRJKNSH&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0775XJMDY/?coliid=IA4LU8QO35NOO&colid=31U5PXXRJKNSH&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it)
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I think I'm going to be watching for a good sale on these. How easy is it to remove the Flash barrel for cleaning? Also, do the barrels have the removable breech caps, like the AT-44, to make it easy to get to the breech o-ring?
No breech cap for the o-ring.
2 set screws and one 14mm socket to remove QE shroud. Take a close look at the crown, most could use a touch-up or cut-back. If your grouping good don't bother.
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No breech cap for the o-ring.
Ooooo...major bummer!
I don't suppose the AT barrels would fit?
Thanks for the info.
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I do not miss the breech cap, some of my AT-44 barrel have siezed caps and none of my other rifles have the cap.
Just replaced an oring while cleaning barrel in breech block, replacement took all of 1 minute. Helps to back oring with cleaning swab and press in with dental pic.
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I do not miss the breech cap, some of my AT-44 barrel have siezed caps and none of my other rifles have the cap.
Just replaced an oring while cleaning barrel in breech block, replacement took all of 1 minute. Helps to back oring with cleaning swab and press in with dental pic.
I like to remove the o-ring when cleaning, so as to clean the grove at the same time, and I find it hard to do that without damaging the o-ring in the process. Also, I don't like digging around the o-ring groove with a metal probe. I guess the best answer is to get a bunch of o-rings and just replace it every time. Not like they are expensive. Then, reinstalling as you suggest should be no problem.
Thanks.
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I like to remove the o-ring when cleaning, so as to clean the grove at the same time, and I find it hard to do that without damaging the o-ring in the process. Also, I don't like digging around the o-ring groove with a metal probe. I guess the best answer is to get a bunch of o-rings and just replace it every time. Not like they are expensive. Then, reinstalling as you suggest should be no problem.
Thanks.
That is my routine. If I am spending the time to clean the barrel, the o-ring gets replaced. I don't wait for it to leak.
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I seem to be considering this rifle way more than I should. :)
How hard would it be to change calibers btw .177, .22, and .25, from one to another?
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I seem to be considering this rifle way more than I should. :)
How hard would it be to change calibers btw .177, .22, and .25, from one to another?
Hatsan Barrel $90
Magazine 2 @ $20 $40
Pellet probe $20 (guessing)
Probe Grommet $10 (guess)
shipping $10
$170 plus retuning effort, springs, poppet seats.
VS.
Refurbed Synthetic $250 plus $10 shipping $260
For $90 more you get all the parts... and no retune on caliber swap.
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I seem to be considering this rifle way more than I should. :)
How hard would it be to change calibers btw .177, .22, and .25, from one to another?
Hatsan Barrel $90
Magazine 2 @ $20 $40
Pellet probe $20 (guessing)
Probe Grommet $10 (guess)
shipping $10
$170 plus retuning effort, springs, poppet seats.
VS.
Refurbed Synthetic $250 plus $10 shipping $260
For $90 more you get all the parts... and no retune on caliber swap.
Makes sense. Where would you get a refurb that you would trust?
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Hatsan
You can leave your email for notification of caliber when they become available. They seem to do it once every couple of weeks.
https://hatsanairgunsusa.com/product/_refurbished-flashpup-synthetic-qe/ (https://hatsanairgunsusa.com/product/_refurbished-flashpup-synthetic-qe/)
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Thanks. I like the synthetic stock, but the wood version with the aluminum cylinder is a pound lighter, according to Pyramyd. The Hatsan pages show just a .1 lb difference. I wonder which is correct?
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Sorry, Donny. Got a bit carried away. Didn't mean to hijack your thread.
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Hijack away man! I don't care, as long as we're talking about Flashpups of some sort,lol! I have a wood and a Synthetic, but the wood version got turned into the "Turkenstein"... Oddly enough, I kinda prefer how the wood version shoulders to the synthetic, even though the synthetic as more adjustment in the butt bad. I like them both though. If you wait a bit, the synthetic is going to be coming out with a side lever. I actually don't mind the bolt as it is, since I got used to it. If you are determined to be switching calibers, the Hydra may be worth considering too, but it isn't a pup.
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No, not determined. Just curious. And Thane made an excellent point.
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No, not determined. Just curious. And Thane made an excellent point.
He usually does make good ones ;)
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Hijack away man! I don't care, as long as we're talking about Flashpups of some sort,lol! I have a wood and a Synthetic, but the wood version got turned into the "Turkenstein"... Oddly enough, I kinda prefer how the wood version shoulders to the synthetic, even though the synthetic as more adjustment in the butt bad. I like them both though. If you wait a bit, the synthetic is going to be coming out with a side lever. I actually don't mind the bolt as it is, since I got used to it. If you are determined to be switching calibers, the Hydra may be worth considering too, but it isn't a pup.
What do you think about the weight difference btw the synthetic and wood models? Hatsan says .1 lb difference, and Pyramyd says 1 lb. And what do you think about the aluminum air cylinder vs. steel?
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I honestly don't think the weight difference is enough to matter. They'll both feel like feather weights compared to the AT44s. I like both versions, and the weight difference isn't even something I think about fwiw.
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I got some more NSA 28.5 grain slugs in today, so I decided to go ahead and see what kind of higher shot count power tunes I could squeeze out of it. Below are the results, all shot indoors at 72 degrees:
-24 shots averaging 916 fps, or 53 fpe with 28.5 grain NSA
High of 935 fps and low of 899 fps for an ES of 36(4%)
Efficiency 1.40
-20 shots averaging 936 fps, or 55 fpe with 28.5 grain NSA
High of 954 fps and low of 925 fps for an ES of 29(3%)
Efficiency 1.47
I'm quite surprised by the shout count at those power levels out of that little 165cc air cylinder. Obviously, we can owe a lot of that to the 700mm barrel hanging out there, but I'll take it! Obviously, this gun and porting/seat combo are much happier in the higher power range. The lower the speed the bigger the ES. I think a slightly smaller valve seat/porting would tighten up the spread a bit in the lower power range. Now, if one were to do the same mods/barrel to a Wood Flashpup and fit the BT65 air cylinder(won't fit SFP)... That would be one heck of a power house with a very respectable shot count! I think it would easily make over 50 fpe regulated with that cylinder too. A 3 magazine 36 shot 50+ fpe tune is certainly in the realm of possibility. Somebody needs to build it!
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I got to do some more testing today, and I found out my gun likes the 28.5 NSA in .218 best when shooting in the 960+fps range. When tuned below that speed, I was getting inconsistent grouping. I did some testing with the 24.8 in .218 and was pleasantly surprised. I tested them shooting around 1000 fps, and they are capable of sub MOA at 100 yards, if I do my part. I was shooting from a chair with the gun rested on my leg, so I didn't do my part and the group was around 1.5". I knew when I pulled shots, and every shot hit where it should. I'm quite confident the gun could do much better from the bench(or with a better marksmen).
Anywho, that's all the updates I think I'm gonna have with this thread for a while. Long story short, I love this SFP and the myriad of tuning that can be done with them :D
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Thanks RallyShark, Thane and others for compiling all this valuable information in one thread! I have been looking for a short, light PCP with enough power to bring to a real range so that my wife would have something to shoot alongside my Bulldog and reading through this thread and others sold me on a Flashpup in .22. I'm hoping to get it shooting slugs eventually, so it's nice to know it has such a wide range of adjustment in power depending on tune and modifications. I've never disassembled an airgun let alone modified it, but I'm looking forward to working on the Flashpup after hearing how simple the assembly is.
The SFP should be here Saturday, but since the ranges are closed at the moment and I live in a very cramped suburb I may not to get to put the SFP through its paces right away. So after testing to make sure it works should I strip the gun down and polish all of the rough edges, and is there anything else that should be done immediately?
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The first thing I usually do is run a chrony string as it is out of the box. That way, I have a solid baseline on which to base my tubing/progress. There isn't really a whole lot of polishing that's necessary, but there is usually a little cleanup involved. These guns can be a little rough from the factory, so there are some cases where some tweaking may be needed. A lot of that really depends on the guns intended use. You definitely want to clean the barrel real good prior to any target work.
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Hi guys, Manny here from El Salvador.
I've been enjoying this thread for 3 days! I got a .22 WFP but I'm selling it to get a SFP and do a pretty good mod with everything I've learned here...except for the PEEK valve seat, you can't find than material here. I guess I could try some delrin or similar.
I've seen a fair amount of comments regarding a replacement for the qe shroud...
What if you bought an extra qe shroud and cut it at the muzzle end, keeping the tread to keep the barrel fixed and snug? And you can still attach an LDC of your choice!
...I'd do it if could manage to get one sent all the way here, but there's no Hatsan dealer in my country.
...just my 2cts!
- Manny
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Hi guys, Manny here from El Salvador.
I've been enjoying this thread for 3 days! I got a .22 WFP but I'm selling it to get a SFP and do a pretty good mod with everything I've learned here...except for the PEEK valve seat, you can't find than material here. I guess I could try some delrin or similar.
I've seen a fair amount of comments regarding a replacement for the qe shroud...
What if you bought an extra qe shroud and cut it at the muzzle end, keeping the tread to keep the barrel fixed and snug? And you can still attach an LDC of your choice!
...I'd do it if could manage to get one sent all the way here, but there's no Hatsan dealer in my country.
...just my 2cts!
- Manny
It would be far easier to just drop the QE shroud, and make a bushing(or tight fitting o-rings) for the barrel to fit snug though the rail support. Of course, you could also do the 20mm carbon with bushings on each end to fit the barrel snug too. I know Amazon sells PEEK rod, if that helps. You can open up the factory valve seat a bit as well.
Everything I did to the SFP can be done to the Wood as well. Also, another benefit of the WFP is the aluminum cylinder. That's significant, because that means a BT65 air cylinder will fit the WFP valve. In other words you could turn that 165cc into 255cc! The down side of that is it won't work without a barrel that's at least 22.5" long, because it won't clear the cylinder with the factory barrel. The benefit of the SFP is that a shorter barrel can be fitted due to the shorter length of the steel cylinder. I like both versions equally, and both can be made to do the same thing. The only difference between the two is the SFP has a steel cylinder/valve with different threading, and the WFP has an aluminum cylinder. I don't know if you've seen the thread I did with my WFP, so here it is. It may save the trouble of selling your WFP and buying a SFP, unless you just like the look of it better.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=166895.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=166895.0)
As a matter of fact, I will be updating this thread in a few days with my SFP wearing a WFP valve and BT65 cylinder just like my WFP is. That is, if everything goes as planned. It will require some modifications of the stock on the muzzle end, so I'm not sure how that's going to turn out.
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Hi guys, Manny here from El Salvador.
I've been enjoying this thread for 3 days! I got a .22 WFP but I'm selling it to get a SFP and do a pretty good mod with everything I've learned here...except for the PEEK valve seat, you can't find than material here. I guess I could try some delrin or similar.
I've seen a fair amount of comments regarding a replacement for the qe shroud...
What if you bought an extra qe shroud and cut it at the muzzle end, keeping the tread to keep the barrel fixed and snug? And you can still attach an LDC of your choice!
...I'd do it if could manage to get one sent all the way here, but there's no Hatsan dealer in my country.
...just my 2cts!
- Manny
It would be far easier to just drop the QE shroud, and make a bushing(or tight fitting o-rings) for the barrel to fit snug though the rail support. Of course, you could also do the 20mm carbon with bushings on each end to fit the barrel snug too. I know Amazon sells PEEK rod, if that helps. You can open up the factory valve seat a bit as well.
Everything I did to the SFP can be done to the Wood as well. Also, another benefit of the WFP is the aluminum cylinder. That's significant, because that means a BT65 air cylinder will fit the WFP valve. In other words you could turn that 165cc into 255cc! The down side of that is it won't work without a barrel that's at least 22.5" long, because it won't clear the cylinder with the factory barrel. The benefit of the SFP is that a shorter barrel can be fitted due to the shorter length of the steel cylinder. I like both versions equally, and both can be made to do the same thing. The only difference between the two is the SFP has a steel cylinder/valve with different threading, and the WFP has an aluminum cylinder. I don't know if you've seen the thread I did with my WFP, so here it is. It may save the trouble of selling your WFP and buying a SFP, unless you just like the look of it better.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=166895.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=166895.0)
As a matter of fact, I will be updating this thread in a few days with my SFP wearing a WFP valve and BT65 cylinder just like my WFP is. That is, if everything goes as planned. It will require some modifications of the stock on the muzzle end, so I'm not sure how that's going to turn out.
Thanks for your reply!
I want to go Synth for 2 main reasons: I'd like to try a shorter barrel too, and I just like the looks of it!
I mentioned the spare qe shroud bc I don't like the look of the naked barrel, and the shroud serves 2 purposes: hold the barrel tight and make the rifle look good!
Maybe I'll sell my WFP without the shroud, lol! and Just add a silencer I have laying around, which gets the exact same results as the oem qe.
Have a safe weekend!
- Manny
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Let us know how it turns out!
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the only thing you and i haven't thought about is fitting a balanced valve. wait...i just thought about it. lol.
yes regulator and bottle for more consistent shot counts are old news. the plenum if tube is cut forward of the barrel band should yield closer to 50-70cc. thats plenty!
i am way off on my estimated plenum size. the ID of the steel tube is 1.19" and going by that, 7 inch will give over 125cc of plenum space. and guess what. bottle it will be.
the only think i dont like about the valve is the ID around the poppet is only .435...thats tiny! I am thinking about enlarging it to .460 or .499".
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the only thing you and i haven't thought about is fitting a balanced valve. wait...i just thought about it. lol.
yes regulator and bottle for more consistent shot counts are old news. the plenum if tube is cut forward of the barrel band should yield closer to 50-70cc. thats plenty!
i am way off on my estimated plenum size. the ID of the steel tube is 1.19" and going by that, 7 inch will give over 125cc of plenum space. and guess what. bottle it will be.
the only think i dont like about the valve is the ID around the poppet is only .435...thats tiny! I am thinking about enlarging it to .460 or .499".
Now we're talking!! I've been waiting for this :D :D That should be awesome Duy! What kind of tune are you going for with it, and are you going to keep the factory barrel? I can see the fun in keeping it a shorty, but a little extra barrel will wake it up a lot too. It just depends on your intended use.
I don't know if enlarging the base of the valve is really going to gain you much. All that air still has to make through a valve seat that can only be .210-ish at the largest with a PEEK seat. With the factory derlin seat, I wouldn't take it over .190-ish. If you wanted to open the valve up to handle a larger seat and valve pin, then it may be worth it. The problem there will be having enough hammer spring to crack that sucker. FWIW, I was able to get over 80 fpe at 200 bar with the 34 grain Beasts in .22(1045 fps), and I only opened up the holes in the valve spring retainer with a 1/8" bit. I did put a stiffer HS in there too.
Granted, that 700mm barrel didn't hurt either,lol. With that straight pull bolt, I don't know that anymore HS would be very fun to cock on a Flashpup.
I'm in the process of going a little different direction at the moment. I got my hands on a WFP valve, so I can put a BT65 cylinder on it, and I'm going to put a reg for a Carnivore in it. I'll be tuning it to shoot the 24.8 grain slugs at 1000fps, because that is their magic speed in that barrel. I stuck the parts together(still waiting on the reg), just to see what it will look like. Ignore the blue tape on the valve in the pick below. I have it taped off to open it up, but I stuck it in the cylinder temporarily to see how it all looked. I removed the valve and started on it tonight. Oh, on a side note, check the alignment of the valve exit with the transfer by rotating it 180 degrees without the gauge in it, before you get too crazy. I found the hole in the valve isn't aligned very well. If yours is like mine, you'll find the hole in the valve is too far toward the muzzle end and 2-3 degrees off center as well! I'm glad I checked this one prior to opening it up... Anywho, below is a rough idea of what it will look like.
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I am trying to see if 80 FPE is attainable with the 17 inch barrel. If not, I will swap out for a longer one. Tune for max power.
I have a hunch that enlarging the base will give more power, I will document before and after to see if that's indeed the case. however much i can get even 10fps gain will do.
Having a larger base forces me to make a larger peek seat, so might as well enlarger all ports. exhaust will be .217 minimum with .23 or .25 throat, keeping poppet 7mm maximum. 7mm poppet and 3000psi will not be that bad to knock open.
I actually like your new configuration, it looks really good.
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I am trying to see if 80 FPE is attainable with the 17 inch barrel. If not, I will swap out for a longer one. Tune for max power.
I have a hunch that enlarging the base will give more power, I will document before and after to see if that's indeed the case. however much i can get even 10fps gain will do.
Having a larger base forces me to make a larger peek seat, so might as well enlarger all ports. exhaust will be .217 minimum with .23 or .25 throat, keeping poppet 7mm maximum. 7mm poppet and 3000psi will not be that bad to knock open.
I actually like your new configuration, it looks really good.
What caliber is yours, .25? With the larger valve pin(poppet), and a larger seat opened up to maybe .240-ish, along with larger porting... I feel pretty sure you'll be able to break 70fpe in .25 with the factory barrel with that stuff, but I think 80 will be tough with that short barrel. Some tungsten in the hammer wouldn't hurt either. I drilled out the valve face on an AT44, but I don't know what it'll do with the flash valve. It will be interesting to see. You'll have to re-tap the hole where the 3mm grub screw is between the two 2.5mm ones that hold the valve in, if you want to go with porting that large(transfer). Otherwise, .190(maybe slightly more) is about as large as you can go without damaging those threads I think. I think you could certainly hit 80 fpe with a bit longer barrel though. You'll also have a higher fill pressure to play with.
I can't wait to see what you come up with numbers wise, because you'll be the first person I've seen make a larger valve pin/seat in one of these guns! I toyed with the idea, but decided against it, with my limited tooling/ability. I'm sure you can make it happen ;)
My new configuration looks better than that broom stick and tiny cylinder at least,lol. The real question will be if I can make a better shot count regulated vs unregulated. That's going to be the big unknown for me. The gun can make the 1000 fps with the 24.8 grain slugs pretty easily, and the plenum will be big enough, but it will be a balancing act on the tune.
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I played with Bobs lofty formula. which is as below for .25 cal.
port X caliber X pi/4 X psi=fpe
.217x.250x3.14159/4x3000psi=127fpe
then take that and calculate with the barrel length. divided by the foot
127x17.7/12/2=94fpe.
and throw in some 20% loss.
94-18.8=75fpe.
I am thinking it will be close to 75fpe with .218 exhaust port and bridging 80fpe with .250 port. we will see.
I am not too worried about the screws. ill find a workaround.
If you have a mininlathe you can do it. I am thinking a stainless steel seat and peek poppet with 2mm stem or less. should even be easier to do vs making a metal poppet and peek seat.
i am sure you can tune it for efficiency, given if you have a big plenum. thats why i am going with 125cc from the tube. i can swap for 22/25/30 caliber later on. if the HS cant open it. balance it will be. there is enough room...
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That is about where I was figuring you'd be on power. Just think what it would be capable of with a 700mm barrel! The steel poppet is one of the main reasons I didn't attempt it myself. It never even occurred to me switch it around with a steel seat and PEEK poppet :-[ Plus, the gun is making enough power for most any lead I'll be shooting, since I won't be going larger than .22 anyway.
I have a larger than average plenum, but I don't have 125cc of plenum, but it sure would be nice :D I made a plenum extension real quick, in case I need a larger one though. I actually just got done "resizing" the reg, since it is for a pre 2018 BT cylinder, and I was only able to get a 2019 cylinder(slightly smaller ID of the cylinder). I have a PEEK seat with a .214 opening ready for the valve too. I don't think I'll get it finished tonight, but I should be able to get some shots over the chrony tomorrow, barring any surprises...
I look forward to finding out what that little monster of yours is capable of!
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Well, it looks like the reg is going to be a no go for this situation... I went ahead and put the gun back together with a reg set point of 155 bar, and 992 is the best it could do with the 24.8 grain slugs. I could turn the reg up a little and make that 1000 fps, but being limited by a 200-ish bar fill and remaining space in the cylinder, the math isn't there for it to work. I know that, now that I have the reg and plenum in hand to measure the space it is taking up. Due to the size of the plenum and the reg, I have to take up 55cc to get 27cc of plenum. If I added 10 more cc of usable plenum, I'd be taking up around 70cc, so I'd have to get an efficiency of 1.6 if I'm being generous. I've never gotten much over 1.5 out of one of these guns on a lower powered tune, so I don't see a reg happening with this setup and power level.
I think it is time to go back to unregulated, and gain a few shots that way. I should still be able to make 25-30 shots with a pretty decent ES that way. On the bright side, I can change to a full beast 70+ fpe power tune with just the turn of an allen screw without the regulator. Oh well, I gave it a go at least ::)
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I had to wait a while for some parts to come in for work this morning, so I went ahead and pulled the reg and set about re-tuning the gun without it. I also decided to stick a big chunk of rubber tubing in the cylinder to de-ping it. That takes away from the volume a little, but not too much. I decided to tune for 24 shots, since that is two magazines.
Starting at 200 bar and ending around 140 bar(going by little crappy gauge on gun) I got an average of 1019 fps with an ES of 36. I was using JSB Monsters 25.39 grain to tune it, since they run pretty close in speed to the 24.8 grain slugs. That comes out to around 3.5% at 58 fpe. I can live with that tune I think. I may back it down a hair, but it is pretty close to where I want it for the slugs. The ES would be under 3%, if not for the first and last shots being right at 1000, and may be closer if I dropped the power slightly. If I was a stickler for super tight ES, I could put a little smaller valve seat in it and tighten the string up some more. I doubt I will though, since I can shoot around a 3.5% ES pretty easily. Besides, a 24 shot 58 fpe tune on a 200 bar non bottled .22 ain't exactly bad ;) I do know, there's no way I could have gotten that tune regulated.
The gun is probably capable of bit more power on the top end with the new valve. I found some minor things with the alignment vs the other valve. It showed on my hammer spring adjustments, but I didn't see the point in finding out if it makes 3 more fpe, haha. I'll try and post a picture of the finished gun in a day or two after I get it all put back together.
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That is a great string for unregulated gun. If I can pull a string under 3.5-4.0 ES without a regulator it is a done deal, no creep guaranteed.
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That is a great string for unregulated gun. If I can pull a string under 3.5-4.0 ES without a regulator it is a done deal, no creep guaranteed.
I completely agree. If you can get the string you want without a reg, then it usually works better in the long run. I use this gun for long range stuff, which is why I wanted to give it a try, but a reg just wasn't the best move with the current setup.
I may revisit the reg idea, when I see what Duy comes up with on his bottle configuration though! A bottle with that much plenum should be able to handle most any power level.
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I played with Bobs lofty formula. which is as below for .25 cal.
port X caliber X pi/4 X psi=fpe
.217x.250x3.14159/4x3000psi=127fpe
then take that and calculate with the barrel length. divided by the foot
127x17.7/12/2=94fpe.
and throw in some 20% loss.
94-18.8=75fpe.
I am thinking it will be close to 75fpe with .218 exhaust port and bridging 80fpe with .250 port. we will see.
I am not too worried about the screws. ill find a workaround.
If you have a mininlathe you can do it. I am thinking a stainless steel seat and peek poppet with 2mm stem or less. should even be easier to do vs making a metal poppet and peek seat.
i am sure you can tune it for efficiency, given if you have a big plenum. thats why i am going with 125cc from the tube. i can swap for 22/25/30 caliber later on. if the HS cant open it. balance it will be. there is enough room...
I look forward to seeing how this one does, for some reason there seems to be a much bigger difference than "just 1.5 inches" when going down from 18.5 to 17", for example. for mid power and lower tunes, not a big deal. But when pushing high power tunes for the caliber a 17" barrel becomes a big constraint. Air consumption gets a little gnarly when swinging for the fences with short barrels.
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I measured the plenum with fluid. its actually 140cc not counting the valve area. i only cut 3/4 past the threaded area and have 9.5" tube length.
the valve exhaust indeed doesnt line up with the breech ports like you mentioned... and the max barrel port i can do without hitting the oring grooves is .217...for the oem barrel anyway. the ID behind the throat is .220, i can fit a .217 reamer loosely in there. sooo...restrictive.
Ahhh.. creeping regulators...
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yah Mike, need to find out how close i can get to that fomula.
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I measured the plenum with fluid. its actually 140cc not counting the valve area. i only cut 3/4 past the threaded area and have 9.5" tube length.
the valve exhaust indeed doesnt line up with the breech ports like you mentioned... and the max barrel port i can do without hitting the oring grooves is .217...for the oem barrel anyway. the ID behind the throat is .220, i can fit a .217 reamer loosely in there. sooo...restrictive.
Ahhh.. creeping regulators...
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yah Mike, need to find out how close i can get to that fomula.
That misaligned valve exit makes me wonder what I left on the table with my .177 slug gun... I knew the hole was a bit too far towards the muzzle, but just assumed it was on center otherwise. Fortunately, it still has the juice to send the 21 grain NSA .177 slugs darn near supersonic, and it doesn't like any of the heavier slugs out there. I just happened to notice it when I was doing this WFP valve for my .22. Now that I'm thinking about it, I'm temped to go see what the top end of power is. I may do it at some point.
With that kind of plenum available, you won't have to worry about it limiting your power I don't think. It should be capable of some pretty crazy numbers if you go with .217 porting and the larger valve poppet/seat arrangement! Hurry up and finish that thing Duy,lol!
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got the block done. just need to mod the valve, do the ports and machine a pic rail for bipod mount. the bottle sticks out so definitely get an ldc, cut the tube a bit shorter, get a longer barrel, or smaller tank, lots of options. cut the stock 1/4 inch too short.
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Nice job on the block! I wish I had the tools/skills to make a block. If you made a liner barrel, it would save you a little weight and get some more barrel length. A 600mm would be a solid length(without being too long), and get you that power you're after for sure.
Don't feel bad about cutting the stock a little short. I opened up the front side of the stock thinking I would need to open it all the way up for the longer cylinder, but I didn't consider the fact that the cylinder doesn't sit all the way down in the stock. In other words, I wasted a lot of effort opening it up more than was necessary. I'm considering "bedding" the cylinder forward of the front rail mount. It is pretty darn solid without doing that though.
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I think the mini lathe should be able to hold a block with it's 3 chucks. I have a bigger lathe and just used the 3 chucks to hold it in and machine away. it's not that complicated, drill, bore, tap then flip and repeat.
Looks like I can't test the before and after boring the ID of the valve. I tapped a peek seat in too hard and nicked the surface, hard to get out so i drilled and bore it out. ehhh. its in the plans. hopefully get it done today and tune later.
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I like the tank block.
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Looks great!
Forward weight will definitely help balance at higher powers.
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got the block done. just need to mod the valve, do the ports and machine a pic rail for bipod mount. the bottle sticks out so definitely get an ldc, cut the tube a bit shorter, get a longer barrel, or smaller tank, lots of options. cut the stock 1/4 inch too short.
Duy, a quick question if you don't mind? I have a similar block (aluminum, made for CO2 by a late buddy from long ago), do you think it would accept a HPA bottle with in-line regulator set to CO2 pressure (~1000psi)? Then I could shoot it through my bulkfilled CO2 QB78 for which the block was originally set up.
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I think the mini lathe should be able to hold a block with it's 3 chucks. I have a bigger lathe and just used the 3 chucks to hold it in and machine away. it's not that complicated, drill, bore, tap then flip and repeat.
Looks like I can't test the before and after boring the ID of the valve. I tapped a peek seat in too hard and nicked the surface, hard to get out so i drilled and bore it out. ehhh. its in the plans. hopefully get it done today and tune later.
I don't know if I'd have the clearance to spin the block, and I don't have the tooling for sure. I'd have to cut the threads, and the mini lathe isn't exactly the most rigid piece of equipment,lol. Also, the bed isn't long enough for me to chuck up the tube and cut threads on it either. Maybe, I'll upgrade the lathe and tooling some day. Until then, I'll have to live vicariously though others' magic :D
Please post pictures of the valve seat/poppet when you get done too. I'm really curious to see how that turns out!
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Okay, here's a couple of pictures of the finished product. I put a Yankee Hill 6" rail extension it to move the bipod farther out, and to avoid resting the cylinder on a bag. I really like that extension, because it is sleek and low profile. It is a very solid piece, but they ain't exactly cheap. Also added a BT65 barrel band at the front of the cylinder. It has two smooth faced allen screws in it to firmly secure the setup(that's what the little hole in it is), and I removed the nut section from the bottom of it. Needless to say, that barrel setup is RIGID. I can pick the gun up by the barrel, and it doesn't move! Weight gain was very minimal, since the BT cylinder is aluminum, and the factory one is steel.
I'm pretty happy with the finished product, even if the reg was a bust on it. She's a hammer, and her only job is slugs ;)
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looks good Donny, it certainly is faster doing that compared to mine. but i am almost ready.
i cant mod the probe because the bolt to unscrew the handle is screwed up. havent mod the hammer spring tension yet. ill slap together and do some initial strings then mod those later.
is your minilathe 7-14? you should try it. stick a 2.5"x1.25"x1.25" block and see. i dont thread tubes if i can get away with it, takes a whole day to set up and cut threads. so i used 4 screws to plug the block end.
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Mrbulk, if your friend made it for co2. as long as you stay under 1200psi, you should be good. make sure you take some measurements of thicknesses and rxactly what type of material being used. you can calculate it. 6061 is less strong than 7075 that i am using.
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That valve should flow quite a bit better! I like the way you did that. What opening is the seat now? I can't wait to see how it works out.
I hear ya on the threading. Mine is a 7 x10 mini lathe, and changing out the gears just to change threads is not any fun :( Mine pretty much stays on 1/2-20, haha. I usually do the turning manually, rather than using the auto feed(unless threading a barrel). I feel like I have more control on the feed that way.
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seat is .225. poppet .257. ports are .2175.
max hammer 33.95=984fps at 3000psi. Not bad for a 17.7" barrel. i guess i can either tune to keep a 60fpe short barrel or ho with a longer barrel and max it out later. i happen to have a bullboss barrel...
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seat is .225. poppet .257. ports are .2175.
max hammer 33.95=984fps at 3000psi. Not bad for a 17.7" barrel. i guess i can either tune to keep a 60fpe short barrel or ho with a longer barrel and max it out later. i happen to have a bullboss barrel...
Good job..not going to get much more than that out of less than 18" of barrrel....
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That's really good for the factory barrel! A longer barrel will certainly bring it up a few notches. I can't remember which, but I think the Bullboss barrel is smaller in diameter on the section that goes into the breech. If that is the case, it won't gain you a whole lot, since you'll have to chop it. If weight isn't a concern, you could order a 24" blank and have at it. I've had really good luck making barrels with the FX slug liners. I made one with the 500, 600, and 700mm. The 700mm is what lives on the gun though. All of the slug liners I've made shoot pellets very well too. There's also the Brownells liners you could play with without too much cost.
You have so many options for this gun. The sky is the limit for ya :D
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I can get more fpe but its not worth the trouble. i would have to open up the ports to bore size. like you said, maybe 75 fpe max with the 17.7" barrel. ill provably detune for 60fpe and be a woods gun.
this number is a few fpe off from Bobs lofty calculation. i got 73fpe instead of 75 previously stated. so from there we can calculate the fpe proportion to a barrel length.
so .217x.250x3.13159/4x3000=127(fpe)x24/12/2=127x.22%=99fpe. or somewhere around 90-95fpe based on the .217 port.
I have a .172/257/308 and alot of 22/25 cal fx liners and those brownell liners too. i have to see which one gets left behind if not going into an impact or crown.
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Interesting..the previous testing was done unregulated.
This time i lower the reg down to 150 bars. i got 899fps with 34 grains. That big plenum really does wonders.
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Interesting..the previous testing was done unregulated.
This time i lower the reg down to 150 bars. i got 899fps with 34 grains. That big plenum really does wonders.
Nothing at all wrong with that. I'm sure the shot count will be decent as well. 60 fpe in that little gun makes for a good compact hammer :D
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well, it is not exactly compact compared to other bullpups. But this will be a "do all" gun. bench, bush, free hand.
center of balance is under the triggger and really close to the grip. I will be adding a longer barrel for power and bench work, may even add .30 cal or .172.
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Hey guys, just wanted to jump in here with my syn .22 pup. Just shot the best group I've ever shot with any gun ;) 50yards shooting Air Arms 18gr at 825fps. The whole 5 shot group is 1/4" and center to center about 3/16" ;D you gotta love these things!!!
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well, it is not exactly compact compared to other bullpups. But this will be a "do all" gun. bench, bush, free hand.
center of balance is under the triggger and really close to the grip. I will be adding a longer barrel for power and bench work, may even add .30 cal or .172.
Duy, what gun is that below the FlashPup? The "Priest"?
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well, it is not exactly compact compared to other bullpups. But this will be a "do all" gun. bench, bush, free hand.
center of balance is under the triggger and really close to the grip. I will be adding a longer barrel for power and bench work, may even add .30 cal or .172.
I'm sure it could handle either one of those calibers too. You could slap a 350cc bottle on it too, if you wanted. If you want to go .177 instead of .172, I've had really good results from the unchoked LW poly barrel. It would save you from making the ammo, unless you like to do that... It is sub MOA with all of the NSA slugs, your gun has the juice to push them easily. I don't always recommend that to everyone, since the slugs work best around 1000+ fps, and it takes a good breathing gun to move them, especially the 18-21 grain ones.
I think it could handle .30 to with a longer barrel for sure. I guess the limiting factor may be the breech and probe? That bottle block happens to be in the perfect spot for an added barrel band. That would really close up the "box" on all the mounts and make it very rigid. It may take a little stress off the factory barrel band. Like I said before though, the sky is the limit almost with whatever you want that gun to do now. Great job!
Hey guys, just wanted to jump in here with my syn .22 pup. Just shot the best group I've ever shot with any gun ;) 50yards shooting Air Arms 18gr at 825fps. The whole 5 shot group is 1/4" and center to center about 3/16" ;D you gotta love these things!!!
That's a great group!
well, it is not exactly compact compared to other bullpups. But this will be a "do all" gun. bench, bush, free hand.
center of balance is under the triggger and really close to the grip. I will be adding a longer barrel for power and bench work, may even add .30 cal or .172.
Duy, what gun is that below the FlashPup? The "Priest"?
Yep, that's a Priest I believe.
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I think NSA just released the new bulk version of .177. i wonder if they will shoot out of your unchoked Lw poly barrel?
if they do moa groups still, ill grab one poly barrel for sure. i will probably play with FX liners in the .25 and .30 cal while waiting for more data on the nee .177
i plan on using liners and thimbles to mount barrels, so the breech should be fine i think.
its getting heavier...4400kg with that tiny scope. almost bullboss territory
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I just ordered a box of each weight, so I should be able to let you know soon!
Wow, that little gun is gaining weight. I guess that bottle and block are heavier than I thought?
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Looking forward to that.
i pretty much cut off only 20cc worth of tubing and add a bottle and a block probably +1lbs. that scope with the scope cam is probably +1.5lbs. thats why i pulled out the Priest, unscoped+carbon bottle, it weights 2991grams vs the FX Impact unscoped at 3100grams vs the flashpup loaded 4400grams. weight does matter! looks like adding longer barrels will make it a good looking bench gun. which i dont mind...
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I didn't even think about the fact that you were starting with almost as much weight, prior to adding the bottle. That makes sense. The good news is making a barrel out of a slug liner won't really gain much if any weight, if you're using carbon to sleeve it. Actually, I think both the 500 and 600 mm ones I did were lighter than the factory barrel. I used 6061 for the threaded piece on the end to also keep the weight down. I think the 700mm one I did was only slightly, if any heavier than the factory barrel.
On the .177 poly barrel, I made it the same way starting with a .47 blank, because I didn't want to put a .63 chunk of steel on the gun. The only options for that blank from LW are .47 or .63. They have the .55 listed, but apparently that diameter isn't available here. I turned down the breech end of the blank and made a thimble(like the liners), and also turned down the muzzle end just a little for the aluminum threaded section. I did everything I could to keep the weight manageable, since I had a Bullboss once, and I didn't want to turn the Flash into another one, haha.
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I think NSA just released the new bulk version of .177. i wonder if they will shoot out of your unchoked Lw poly barrel?
if they do moa groups still, ill grab one poly barrel for sure. i will probably play with FX liners in the .25 and .30 cal while waiting for more data on the nee .177
i plan on using liners and thimbles to mount barrels, so the breech should be fine i think.
its getting heavier...4400kg with that tiny scope. almost bullboss territory
Duy, I just did some quick testing with the new NSA slugs, and I say go ahead do that unchoked polygon barrel :D I imagine the unchoked standerd rifled barrel would do very well too. They are just as accurate as the old 15.5 grain were. Even the 12.5 grain are accurate. Also, I told a lie about how I did my polygon barrel :-[ I did not do a thimble on the breech end. I only had to take wee bit off for it to fit the breech, since I used the .47 OD barrel. The hole in the breech on the flash is just a hair under .47. I had a brain skip there. I did turn down the muzzle end a little for the aluminum 1/2-20 piece on the end though. I hope that helps.
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whats the group like at 50 and 100 yards? under 2 inches at 100?
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whats the group like at 50 and 100 yards? under 2 inches at 100?
I was only able to do a quick test after work today at 30 yards, so I'll have to get back to you on 50-100. I have little doubt they'd be under 2" at 100 yards. They behave pretty much just like the 15.5 do, and it would do 1" at 100 with those. I'm kind of excited about how well the 12.5 grain did too. I probably shot one of my best groups with slugs at 30 yards with those at 1035 fps. Every group I shot today with both weights was under a dime, regardless of speed. That was with a barrel I haven't cleaned in a while too. This barrel has always done a little better at 50 than at 30 yards, I guess because the slugs haven't completely settled down at 30? I'll put it like this, I've never had them de-stabilize at long range like some pellets do.
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Duy, I just did some testing at 45 yards, which is the longest I can shoot at my house. The 12.5 and 15 grain NSAs are still holding up just fine. All groups can be covered by a dime. No pics, because I was shooting other stuff and a lot of it. You know, when you start using holes as targets over and over... I still think an unchoked polygon or standard unchoked LW will work great with the .177 slugs and your SFP :)
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thanks for all the testings. i got some slugs ordered. ill dig into the barrels bin once it gets here.
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I'm sure you'll come up with something that makes those little slugs work for ya ;D
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So, it looks like COVID has also affected air rifles supply. It looks like there's not any Flashpup Synth available at any store any time soon. Not even refurbs at Hatsan's website.
Any of you fellas has gotten bored of yours? I'll be happy to take that weight of your shoulders...
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Mine ain't going anywhere,lol! It is shooting too good, and I've put too much work into it. Fwiw, I wouldn't sell my Wood Flashpup either for the same reasons ;)
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I rarely sell my guns, i collect and pile them up. I think all the airguns i decide to buy will almost become a "don't sell" gun.
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Mine ain't going anywhere,lol! It is shooting too good, and I've put too much work into it. Fwiw, I wouldn't sell my Wood Flashpup either for the same reasons ;)
I was shopping hard for one at one time but couldn't find any, then I bought a bunch of other stuff and that was it for me for awhile...and now buying all these suppressors... ::)
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So, it looks like COVID has also affected air rifles supply. It looks like there's not any Flashpup Synth available at any store any time soon. Not even refurbs at Hatsan's website.
Any of you fellas has gotten bored of yours? I'll be happy to take that weight of your shoulders...
.177 and .22 cal are in stock at pyramyd air
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/hatsan-flash-qe-pcp-air-rifle?m=4581 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/hatsan-flash-qe-pcp-air-rifle?m=4581)
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So, it looks like COVID has also affected air rifles supply. It looks like there's not any Flashpup Synth available at any store any time soon. Not even refurbs at Hatsan's website.
Any of you fellas has gotten bored of yours? I'll be happy to take that weight of your shoulders...
.177 and .22 cal are in stock at pyramyd air
Thanks screwwork, but that's the Flash, I'm looking (craving?) for the Flashpup Synth...
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So, it looks like COVID has also affected air rifles supply. It looks like there's not any Flashpup Synth available at any store any time soon. Not even refurbs at Hatsan's website.
Any of you fellas has gotten bored of yours? I'll be happy to take that weight of your shoulders...
.177 and .22 cal are in stock at pyramyd air
Thanks screwwork, but that's the Flash, I'm looking (craving?) for the Flashpup Synth...
I know you want the SFP, but I still say you can do anything with the WFP that the synthetic can do ;)
I got to shoot the re-cylindered SFP some yesterday at longer ranges, and I think it is actually shooting a little better than it was before! I don't know if the additional barrel band changed the harmonics or if the slugs are just happier shooting that extra 10-20 fps faster now, but she's a laser!! It was pretty dang accurate prior to the BT cylinder, but yesterday, it just felt a little more consistent. I did change how I was resting the gun on bags too, so that could also be part of it. Many innocent cans and smaller targets met their death from 150-215 yards in the wind :D
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So, it looks like COVID has also affected air rifles supply. It looks like there's not any Flashpup Synth available at any store any time soon. Not even refurbs at Hatsan's website.
Any of you fellas has gotten bored of yours? I'll be happy to take that weight of your shoulders...
.177 and .22 cal are in stock at pyramyd air
Thanks screwwork, but that's the Flash, I'm looking (craving?) for the Flashpup Synth...
I know you want the SFP, but I still say you can do anything with the WFP that the synthetic can do ;)
I got to shoot the re-cylindered SFP some yesterday at longer ranges, and I think it is actually shooting a little better than it was before! I don't know if the additional barrel band changed the harmonics or if the slugs are just happier shooting that extra 10-20 fps faster now, but she's a laser!! It was pretty dang accurate prior to the BT cylinder, but yesterday, it just felt a little more consistent. I did change how I was resting the gun on bags too, so that could also be part of it. Many innocent cans and smaller targets met their death from 150-215 yards in the wind :D
that sounds awesome!
UPDATE: Just got to purchase a refub SFP in 22 cal...and I was in such a hurry that I used the wrong shipping address (duh...) I've emailed and called them but no reply so far...no one picks up the phone no matter what extention I chose...
Do you have another way to contact them? maybe a different phone number? Is anyone from Hatsan in this forum so I can reach out to them??
Thanks in advance...
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So, it looks like COVID has also affected air rifles supply. It looks like there's not any Flashpup Synth available at any store any time soon. Not even refurbs at Hatsan's website.
Any of you fellas has gotten bored of yours? I'll be happy to take that weight of your shoulders...
.177 and .22 cal are in stock at pyramyd air
Thanks screwwork, but that's the Flash, I'm looking (craving?) for the Flashpup Synth...
I know you want the SFP, but I still say you can do anything with the WFP that the synthetic can do ;)
I got to shoot the re-cylindered SFP some yesterday at longer ranges, and I think it is actually shooting a little better than it was before! I don't know if the additional barrel band changed the harmonics or if the slugs are just happier shooting that extra 10-20 fps faster now, but she's a laser!! It was pretty dang accurate prior to the BT cylinder, but yesterday, it just felt a little more consistent. I did change how I was resting the gun on bags too, so that could also be part of it. Many innocent cans and smaller targets met their death from 150-215 yards in the wind :D
that sounds awesome!
UPDATE: Just got to purchase a refub SFP in 22 cal...and I was in such a hurry that I used the wrong shipping address (duh...) I've emailed and called them but no reply so far...no one picks up the phone no matter what extention I chose...
Do you have another way to contact them? maybe a different phone number? Is anyone from Hatsan in this forum so I can reach out to them??
Thanks in advance...
YIKES! Sorry, I have no juice with Hatsan but just wanted to share your anxiety (and type YIKES in caps), I sure hope you get it sorted...
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Or cancel the order and order the Wood version instead, they have a refurbished unit in 25 for $20 more.
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UPDATE: Just got to purchase a refub SFP in 22 cal...and I was in such a hurry that I used the wrong shipping address (duh...) I've emailed and called them but no reply so far...no one picks up the phone no matter what extention I chose...
Do you have another way to contact them? maybe a different phone number? Is anyone from Hatsan in this forum so I can reach out to them??
Thanks in advance...
Someone's getting an early Christmas in San Salvador...
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They've fixed it! They've updated the right address... ;D
(is there a "jumping out of happiness" icon? lol)
Can't wait to get my hands on that baby and start tuning it before adding a regulator...
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Or cancel the order and order the Wood version instead, they have a refurbished unit in 25 for $20 more.
Now I'm itching to get that one too...
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UPDATE: Just got to purchase a refub SFP in 22 cal...and I was in such a hurry that I used the wrong shipping address (duh...) I've emailed and called them but no reply so far...no one picks up the phone no matter what extention I chose...
Do you have another way to contact them? maybe a different phone number? Is anyone from Hatsan in this forum so I can reach out to them??
Thanks in advance...
Someone's getting an early Christmas in San Salvador...
Good one Thane ;D ;D ;D
(sorry 503Manny couldn't resist; at least I waited until you got your mailing address fixed up) ;)
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UPDATE: Just got to purchase a refub SFP in 22 cal...and I was in such a hurry that I used the wrong shipping address (duh...) I've emailed and called them but no reply so far...no one picks up the phone no matter what extention I chose...
Do you have another way to contact them? maybe a different phone number? Is anyone from Hatsan in this forum so I can reach out to them??
Thanks in advance...
Someone's getting an early Christmas in San Salvador...
Good one Thane ;D ;D ;D
(sorry 503Manny couldn't resist; at least I waited until you got your mailing address fixed up) ;)
That's ok Charlie! we're all in this together, lol. the struggle is real! :D
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Congrats on ordering the refurbished SPF!
Love the tag line, "You don't need a shrink...you just need to shoot some pellets"
My shrink suggests me going camping, hunting & shooting stuff to find peace & releasing my frustration. lol
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Congrats on ordering the refurbished SPF!
Love the tag line, "You don't need a shrink...you just need to shoot some pellets"
My shrink suggests me going camping, hunting & shooting stuff to find peace & releasing my frustration. lol
Thanks! I've been also waiting for a new one in PA or AD but they keep pushing the expected date...then I got the text alarm I set up for when the availability email from Hatsan hits my inbox...last time I saw the email 2 hrs after and the rifle was already gone!
...then you should take him hunting with you Randy!
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Now that's a good one, (she) may not be up for that or her husband may not approve of it. lol
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Now that I'll be getting my SFP...
Has anyone found the perfect slug for their .22 cal Pup? I'd like to buy some samplers but there are too many options: .217, .218 and about 5 different weights for each.
I already tried JSB Knockouts (.216) and they were horrible in my WFP.
Any suggestions?
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I have been shooting .217 23gr H&N slugs at about 1000 FPS and I love them in a tuned WFP. My search is over!
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I have been shooting .217 23gr H&N slugs at about 1000 FPS and I love them in a tuned WFP. My search is over!
Nice! How is it grouping at 50+ yds?
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These slugs are doing worlds better than any pellet I've tried. This is especially true out past 50 yards. If I do my part, at 50 the rifle will put them all well under an inch. But at 100 yards it can do MOA. Once again that's up to me. What's really nice is that with a 35 yard sight in it's only dropping about 2 inches at 100 yards. Pellets of similar weight were more like 6 to 8 inches, and they never grouped like these at 100.
They are reasonably priced too compared to most other slugs. I'm not sure how well they'll shoot at lower velocities but it's not hard to get them there. I still have 5 turns left on my hammer spring so I could probably push them faster or even go up a few grains. But I'm really pleased with it now and they do a number on skunks.
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These slugs are doing worlds better than any pellet I've tried. This is especially true out past 50 yards. If I do my part, at 50 the rifle will put them all well under an inch. But at 100 yards it can do MOA. Once again that's up to me. What's really nice is that with a 35 yard sight in it's only dropping about 2 inches at 100 yards. Pellets of similar weight were more like 6 to 8 inches, and they never grouped like these at 100.
They are reasonably priced too compared to most other slugs. I'm not sure how well they'll shoot at lower velocities but it's not hard to get them there. I still have 5 turns left on my hammer spring so I could probably push them faster or even go up a few grains. But I'm really pleased with it now and they do a number on skunks.
Sounds like you don't need to touch it anymore! yeah, slugs have a flatter trajectory due to their higher BC. I'll def try those!
Thanks
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Yes I extremely pleased with these inexpensive, highly modifiable, accurate and powerful airguns.
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Yes I extremely pleased with these inexpensive, highly modifiable, accurate and powerful airguns.
Nice setup, what did you cover the barrel with? and what suppressor are you using?
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The shroud is 20mm x 17mm CF tubing. The moderator is home brewed made from a Maglight flashlight with a stack of 8 air strippers inside.
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Here's a picture. Works much better than the factory unit.
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Here's a picture. Works much better than the factory unit.
Cool!
Are those baffles the ones for sale on Ebay?
It's a great idea., I have one I bought from China, very well made, monoblock. Looks kinda like yours.
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Yes they are the same ones from Ebay. I just fitted it into the Maglight body and they work better than in the factory shroud which really doesn't allow it to breathe very well with onlt one little air escape hole back near the plastic mount for the optics rail.
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Very stiff tube and the tensioned barrel on the WFP is marginally better than the bonded SFP due to tension. When you pinch the joint at the breach block and torque on the barrel the tensioned barrel has no shifting you can feel with finger tips. The bonded barrel has very slight motions at the barrel insertion to breach block since there is only the set screws and carbon sitting adjacent with no tension . I'll be slipping a 20x19 tube over it, tensioning and loose the shim. I would try tensioning the largest diameter tube I could fit on the Turkenstein, functions like a truss.
Hey, Thane.
As you know, (and have posted there) there is now a new thread devoted solely to CF sleeves:
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=193535.msg156247159#msg156247159 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=193535.msg156247159#msg156247159)
Donny, it would be great if you could also comment there, if you have any new thoughts or ideas.
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Regarding the pint Thane makes in the quote, above: This is very good to know. I will be adding a very tight sleeve to my wood Flashpup, so I'm thinking of gluing a few washers to the breech-end. I figure that will help stiffen the joint in the same way that the wider diameter tube does.
Maybe I can get one of you guys to make me a couple of derlin washers? :D
- Of course this will only works if the tube will be loose enough to slide over the barrel. I did manage to find a likely contender (referenced in that other thread) which is a tad wider ID than 14mm, at 0.555, so we'll see.
Also note: One thing no one seems to have mentioned is that there are several different types of CF tube construction, and some are stiff than others. I'm no expert, but I know that pultruded is one of the stiffest, and high modulus is probably the ultimate. - SadlyI couldn't find either with the perfect ID, so I went with "uni roll" construction, which is still said to be fairly stiff. It's not very thick, though, but I figure that doesn't matter if it's going flush against the barrel. For a wider tube (basically a shroud replacement) it would probably be best to find one of the stiffer types.
There is also a type that is NOT stiff at all, and it kind of looks like the type Thane used. ( ! ) - but the high modulus looks very similar, so maybe he got the good stuff. (It's very expensive, though.)
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Here's a picture. Works much better than the factory unit.
Yep. That's the monocore type, sold by GEOFF and others. They work amazingly well.
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Also note: One thing no one seems to have mentioned is that there are several different types of CF tube construction, and some are stiff than others. I'm no expert, but I know that pultruded is one of the stiffest, and high modulus is probably the ultimate. - SadlyI couldn't find either with the perfect ID, so I went with "uni roll" construction, which is still said to be fairly stiff. It's not very thick, though, but I figure that doesn't matter if it's going flush against the barrel. For a wider tube (basically a shroud replacement) it would probably be best to find one of the stiffer types.
There is also a type that is NOT stiff at all, and it kind of looks like the type Thane used. ( ! ) - but the high modulus looks very similar, so maybe he got the good stuff. (It's very expensive, though.)
I used rolled construction.
the larger OD fits better in the rail risers and the thick 3mm side walls are very stiff.