GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Guns And Related Accessories Review Gates => Air Gun Review Gate => Topic started by: abqjoe on October 12, 2019, 01:20:17 PM
-
So 4-6 weeks ago I had made a thread on the HW77 that I tuned and in that thread I was discussing chronograph numbers on said rifle and I was also discussing the negative effects that elevation has on velocity/chronograph numbers. Shortly into the life of that thread Hector Medina came along and made me an offer with an attitude of confidence that I can fully appreciate; which was to send me a Diana 56 TH that he tuned for me to test at my elevation. Two cool things about this offer was; 1. The rifle is tuned by Hector Medina who is widely respected and known and 'THEE' go-to guy for Diana Rifles! 2. The rifle would come with an option to buy! Hector also offered to pay for the shipping to me but that the return shipping would be on my dime if I decided not to purchase the rifle, which I felt was way more than any other tuner who I've talked with or done business with would be willing to do. So I agree to test the rifle out here at 5360' with the option to buy.
It takes about two weeks to actually get the rifle in and when it comes in I'm very excited! In fact, I was watching the tracking number and I actually took off of work early to receive the rifle as I did not want it to just sit outside of my house all day until after work. Now, it's not that I don't trust anyone, but yeah, I don't trust anyone lol! I get home, I open up the rifle, I look it over and admire it for a few minutes, I put it in the safe and proceed to walk towards the front door and go back to work. But then, I changed my mind 8) I decided to call it an early day at work, opened up the safe, pulled out this beautiful Diana 56 TH, went out back with some pellets, and let a few fly! Now, I own a factory stock Diana 54 Air King which is nice because I have something to compare to the rifle that Hector Medina sent me. Right away I notice that the cocking effort on the Diana 56 TH is around 15-20% less than the cocking effort on my 54 Air King which, if you've ever cocked one you know it can be fairly significant compared to other Springers! I squeeze the trigger and I notice that the trigger pull is also much smoother! The rifle fires, and I notice that because of the custom Harmonics Reducer (best "dang" alternative title I've heard to date for a silencer) that the rifle is around 15-20% quieter than my 54 Air King, and even though these rifles are recoiless right out of the box, this 56 that Hector Medina tuned just felt smoother than my stock 54 Air King.
Now it wasn't until a few days later that I actually pulled out the chronograph to get some hard numbers. I tried several different pellets of different weights but I've decided only to post the results of a few here as these represent the rifle at it's best and worst at my elevation. True to form what I've learned thus far is that the yes the rifle lost 50 FPS because of the increase in elevation. Yes the rifle lost a few FPS because of the tune, I expected this because of my background in 2 stroke race engine building, fire arms experience, and even 1/8 scale RC Nitro Racing, everything looses power up here! Now, even though the rifle was not able to produce numbers high enough to accurately use 18gr pellets, it was able to effectively produce near laser like accuracy with pellets 14-15 grains! Now when you look at these numbers realize that at 1500' of elevation you will pick up another 50 FPS (which is what the one and only rifle I sent to Motorhead showed in California and he is at 1500' in elevation) so at sea level it is safe to say that an additional 20 or so FPS will be gained. Now, I mention this because this fine rifle is still for sale, far as I know, and so anyone interested in buying it can use this math to calculate more or less what FPS at a given pellet weight that this rifle will produce. There are only two reasons that I did not purchase this rifle; 1. for me a Diana is for the use of 18gr pellets, I have my Weihrauch's for lesser grains and at my elevation and this tune is just shy of being able to produce the velocity to accurately use 18gr pellets. 2. This rifles ergonmics are more for benchrest shooting and I do a lot of offhand/stand up shooting for pest control. Now again, use the provided numbers and math here and you will find that at a lower elevation this rifle will indeed produce the needed numbers for 18gr pellets! I've found that the Diana really needs to be able to fire an 18gr pellet at 690+ FPS to be accurate with them.
So, right down to it, here are the numbers of a few of the pellets that I tested as well as a couple of pics of groups that I shot with this rifle. And again, this rifle is still available for some lucky person and at the price that Hector is selling it at, IT IS A STEAL! On a side note, as many of you have seen in my previous postings, I pay close attention to peoples character, because that's what's most important to me! With that being said, what I can say about Hector as an individual, as a man, from my personal experience, is that he is a true gentleman who conducts himself with sincerity and integrity and I have no problem whatsoever in recommending him for services or sales of built rifles!
H&N FTT's 14.66gr
Group #1 (from cold bore no warm up)
Shot 1. 758 FPS
Shot 2. 753 FPS
Shot 3. 758 FPS
Shot 4. 753 FPS
Shot 5. 749 FPS
Extreme Spread of 9 FPS. If it wasn't for shot number 5 it would have only been an extreme spread of 5 FPS which is terrific IMO!
Low of 18.46 FPE
High of 18.71 FPE
Group #2
Shot 1. 760 FPS
Shot 2. 757 FPS
Shot 3. 757 FPS
Shot 4. 758 FPS
Shot 5. 759 FPS
Extreme Spread, only 3 FPS!
Low of 18.66 FPE
High of 18.81 FPE
Group #3
Shot 1. 752 FPS
Shot 2. 753 FPS
Shot 3. 758 FPS
Shot 4. 752 FPS
Shot 5. 754 FPS
Extreme Spread of 6 FPS.
Low of 18.41 FPE
High of 18.71 FPE
Group #4
Shot 1. 755 FPS
Shot 2. 765 FPS
Shot 3. 749 FPS
Shot 4. 751 FPS
Shot 5. 746 FPS
Extreme Spread of 19 FPS
Low of 18.12 FPE
High of 19.06 FPE
Group #5
Shot 1. 753 FPS
Shot 2. 761 FPS
Shot 3. 755 FPS
Shot 4. 755 FPS
Shot 5. 749 FPS
Extreme Spread of 12 FPS
Low of 18.27 FPE
High of 18.86 FPE
Group #6
Shot 1. 756 FPS
Shot 2. 745 FPS
Shot 3. 752 FPS
Shot 4. 752 FPS
Shot 5. 752 FPS
Extreme Spread of 11 FPS. In this group if it wasn't for shot number 2 the extreme spread would have only been 4 FPS.
Low of 18.41 FPE
High of 18.61 FPE
CROSSMAN PREMIER PIRANHA 14.3 gr
Group #1
Shot 1. 727 FPS
Shot 2. 731 FPS
Shot 3. 727 FPS
Shot 4. 731 FPS
Shot 5. 725 FPS
Extreme Spread of 6 FPS
Low of 16.69 FPE
High of 16.97 FPE
Group #2
Shot 1. 702 FPS
Shot 2. 715 FPS
Shot 3. 722 FPS
Shot 4. 711 FPS
Shot 5. 708 FPS
Extreme Spread of 20 FPS
Low of 15.65 FPE
High of 16.56 FPE
Group #3
Shot 1. 721 FPS
Shot 2. 721 FPS
Shot 3. 721 FPS
Shot 4. 689 FPS
Shot 5. 709 FPS
Extreme Spread of 32 FPS
Low of 15.08 FPE
High of 16.51 FPE
Group #4
Shot 1. 730 FPS
Shot 2. 726 FPS
Shot 3. 709 FPS
Shot 4. 733 FPS
Shot 5. 716 FPS
Extreme Spread of 24 FPS
Low of 15.97 FPE
High of 17.06 FPE
H&N Crow Magnums 18.21 gr. I only shot 3 groups with these.
Group #1
Shot 1. 663 FPS
Shot 2. 665 FPS
Shot 3. 664 FPS
Shot 4. 662 FPS
Shot 5. 658 FPS
Extreme Spread of 6 FPS
Low of 17.51 FPE
High of 17.89 FPE
Group #2
Shot 1. 656 FPS
Shot 2. 662 FPS
Shot 3. 654 FPS
Shot 4. 654 FPS
Shot 5. 654 FPS
Extreme Spread of 8 FPS
Low of 17.3 FPE
High of 17.72 FPE
Group #3
Shot 1. 660 FPS
Shot 2. 650 FPS
Shot 3. 650 FPS
Shot 4. 650 FPS
Shot 5. 650 FPS
Extreme Spread of 10 FPS but, 4 out of 5 shots were identical!
Low of 17.09 FPE
High of 17.62 FPE
Hopefully these numbers will be of use to the community! Happy shooting!
-
Another excellent, thorough and truthful review. Thanks for all the documentation. Some of those groups and extreme spreads are very impressive.
-
That's a pretty rifle. I asked Hector for a build similar to this last year, but it was out of my price range at the time. Glad to see it is working as expected. Hopefully I can get back on that plan after bonus time:). Hope you like the new FX as well!
-
Good read, thank you. Would love to see what it would do @ 3X that distance, 20 yards is childs play for that rifle.
-
Jose we both have 54's but the 56's stock is a beautiful creature
-
Jose we both have 54's but the 56's stock is a beautiful creature
Indeed!
-
José;
Thanks for your kind words and for taking the time to test the gun.
Because of your tests, we now have a good grasp of how caliber affects altitude. We have pretty well characterized the performance of 0.177" cal. guns from our friends in AZ, they shoot at Phoenix, Flagstaff, and Mormon Lake and so, their altitude variations in a month are more than most shooters will ever see in a lifetime.
Now we know what happens to 0.22" cal. GREAT info.
It was a privilege and a pleasure working with you, I hope we find other opportunities to collaborate.
Thanks again for your time and effort!
HM
-
José;
Thanks for your kind words and for taking the time to test the gun.
Because of your tests, we now have a good grasp of how caliber affects altitude. We have pretty well characterized the performance of 0.177" cal. guns from our friends in AZ, they shoot at Phoenix, Flagstaff, and Mormon Lake and so, their altitude variations in a month are more than most shooters will ever see in a lifetime.
Now we know what happens to 0.22" cal. GREAT info.
It was a privilege and a pleasure working with you, I hope we find other opportunities to collaborate.
Thanks again for your time and effort!
HM
Thank you for sending it to me, it was a pleasure to shoot!
-
Answering a few questions received through the PM system:
Some friends have asked me to do a straight up comparison of numbers, because there are a lot of them! And I made it difficult for everyone when I posted the Sea Level numbers in a separate place, so my apologies! For reference's sake they are here:
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=162405.msg155824957#msg155824957 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=162405.msg155824957#msg155824957)
So, I will try to do a reasonable comparison using averages. Yes I know averages are not so good, because if you put half your body in 32° water and the other half in 108° water, it does NOT mean that you are comfy at a balmy 70°, ROFL!
What happens here is that all data is reasonably uniform, so I hope averages will be meaningful. Here we go:
With 14,3 grs. pellets.- At sea level =>19.7 ft-lbs, at 5,000 FASL => 16.31 ft-lbs (though with a completely different pellet) loss of 4%/1,000 FASL
With 16 grs. pellets.- At sea level => 20.1 ft-lbs, at 5,000 FASL =>
With 18 grs. pellets.- At sea level => 22.8 ft-lbs, at 5,000 FASL => 17.5 ft-lbs (Again different pellets) loss of 5%/1,000 FASL
Loss of Muzzle Energy is more than expected but not completely, as the larger bore and the reduced air density means that the compression stroke "runs out of gas" sooner than in a smaller caliber; for comparison, a 0.177" will loose barely 2% when going from Phoenix to Mormon Lake (7,200 FASL).
The gun was originally tuned down to AAFTA limits. That implied going from 22.4 ft-lbs with CP's (14.3 grs.) to under 20 ft-lbs with the lighter quality pellet (JSB Jumbo Express @ 14.3 grs), so there is SOME room there to increase the power output by about 10%, even if it becomes "a little rough" when brought down to Sea Level, that will not be a common occurrence.
So, there it is, a simple comparison showing how hard high elevations are on spring-piston air rifles. It also shows that a "best case" HW77 will still shoot about 50 fps slower with 14,x grs. pellets, than a "reined in" 54/56 at 5,000 FASL.
The second question is about the muzzle piece; it is not an LDC, it will NOT reduce the noise signature of the airgun, it is a pure harmonics reducer and the muzzle that you see is the direct muzzle of the gun. The reduced bark/muzzle blast/noise comes from an increased efficiency (less cocking effort for the same energy yield in most cases) and a more efficient TP.
I still maintain that the best way to have a "backyard friendly" piston gun is to make sure it is efficient and that it does not shoot too fast.
Third question was about price.
A "fine gun" (as a friend put it), like this will cost around $1,000 with hard case, Accurized ZR mounts, and Scope. Not cheap, yes I know, but at some point in our life we all come to the conclusion that since we only shoot one gun at a time, it is better to have a few good ones, than a bunch of so-so; and that at some point in time, we owe it to ourselves to get ONE good gun, whatever that means to each of us.
JMHO's
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
-
Outstanding thread!
I have a 1988 M52 in .177 I am debating having updated or just sell. Great to know there are quality experts out there for these.
-
I really like my D56 .22 cal. Most of the shooting I do is bench rest. So this rifle suits me fine. Besides, its too heavy for me to shoot off hand.
However, I do have more than just one good rifle. I couldn't settle.
I wish had more range to shoot further than 50m though. Even at 50m, shooting from a bench is just too easy with this rifle.
The only tuning I've done to mine is put a Vortek PG2 HO kit in and that is a nice upgrade making the shot cycle smoother, less buzzy, and a bit more fps if I remember right.
Otherwise, a break in period was all the rifle needed. It has smoothed out and gotten more accurate since I've had it.
BTW: I love the stock! I wasn't sure about it when I ordered it. However, after getting it in hand, I like it. It fits my shooting style and the way I like to handle my guns between shots. I prefer thumbhole target stocks with big, hand grip sized, thumb holes exactly like the D56 has. I don't care for sporter stocks; they just don't fit my trigger pull style.
-
Breaking the thread for a moment (apologies tendered)...
Am I correct to believe the 56th stock is a straight swap on the 54 action or are modifications required?
Which of the two stocks better suit bench shooting?
-
Breaking the thread for a moment (apologies tendered)...
Am I correct to believe the 56th stock is a straight swap on the 54 action or are modifications required?
Which of the two stocks better suit bench shooting?
IDK the answer to your first question but as far as your 2nd question goes I would say that the thumbhole stock is better for bench shooting! Don't get me wrong, I love the stock on my 54 as well but that 56 stock just felt better for bench shooting.....
-
Breaking the thread for a moment (apologies tendered)...
Am I correct to believe the 56th stock is a straight swap on the 54 action or are modifications required?
Which of the two stocks better suit bench shooting?
Yes it is a straight swap.
Changeover the metal hardware and that's it.
56 stocks for sale at Pyramyd Air.
HTH
HM
-
Thanks for the info Hector, much appreciated. I do admire the aesthetic quality in the 56th.