GTA
Support Equipment For PCP/HPA/CO2 and springers ,rams => Scopes And Optics Gate => Topic started by: Bayman on October 10, 2019, 04:58:59 PM
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Today I noticed when my scopes are zeroed at 25 yards they shoot low and left in the basement at 10 yards. When i zero at 10 yards in the basement I'm high and right at 25 yards. I'm using Hawke match mounts and sports match dovetail mounts. I use these because they have recoil pins and hang tight to my springers. I expected vertical differences at these ranges, but it's annoying to have to change windage adjustments all the time. I like the idea of the self centering BKL mounts but they don't have recoil pins and don't want the scopes sliding in the dovetails. Is there a solution to this??
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Try swapping your rings around. (front to back, back to front) See if this helps. Also, flip rings around (front side turned around backwards, backside to front side). Make sure your scope is centered over the bore.
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Try swapping your rings around. (front to back, back to front) See if this helps. Also, flip rings around (front side turned around backwards, backside to front side). Make sure your scope is centered over the bore.
Thanks but the dovetail should be centered to the bore. If the rings are not center, flipping them will only change which side they lean to. Turning only one around would miss align the rings and possibly damage the scope. All my scoped air rifles have this issue. It probably wouldn't be noticeable at longer ranges like 25 yards out. Unfortunately i do a lot of testing and sighting in the basement at ten yards then when I shoot them outside at 20 yards plus I have to adjust the windage a fair amount. Vertical adjustments due to range changes are for some reason far easier to make mentally.
I think the root of the problem is these rings are made for multiple dovetails and the scope ends up favoring one side. I'm interested in feedback on the BKLs or any other centering scope ring.
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I've got BKLs on several of my airguns. Great self-centering rings for sure.
My suggestion about swapping rings has worked for others before. Sometimes it works. But if you're dead set on changing ring, more power to ya.
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Go here ...read this All will be revealed ;D https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=72099.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=72099.0)
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Try swapping your rings around. (front to back, back to front) See if this helps. Also, flip rings around (front side turned around backwards, backside to front side). Make sure your scope is centered over the bore.
+1. Has resolved that same issue many times. Some are meant to have the screws on the left and some on the right.
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Go here ...read this All will be revealed ;D https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=72099.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=72099.0)
Thank you. I looked at this briefly and will dig more into it when I have more time and the conditions at the range to verify. In general I think rotating the scope to center the vertical axis over the barrel is brilliant. With mounts that aren't centered to begin with I will end up with gun that is noticeably crooked to the scope. That would give my ocd brain the fits. I think it would be best to mechanically center the scope the best as possible with the mounts and then make slight adjustments with Scott's method. Mine is fairly drastic when zeroed at 10 yards my windage is off nearly an inch to the right at 25 yards. Zero at 25 yards and my 10yd windage is off a quarter inch to the left. That is probably the better zero for me. From a practical standpoint being off a quarter inch to the left at 10 yards is not a giant deal but it's visually distracting when fine tuning a rifle the rifle in my basement shop. Maybe my best course of action is to make a dope sheet for all 5 rifles that would take me back and forth between the two zeros both vertically and horizontal.
Fwiw I'm very anal with leveling my scopes to the guns action and checking for reticle cant within the scope itself. There's a lot of good information on here. Thanks for posting the link to Scott's excellent contribution.
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This is what I use to square up my scopes.
https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/sight-scope-installation-tools/scope-reticle-levelers/vertical-reticle-instrument-prod6097.aspx?psize=96 (https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/sight-scope-installation-tools/scope-reticle-levelers/vertical-reticle-instrument-prod6097.aspx?psize=96)
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This is what I use to square up my scopes.
https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/sight-scope-installation-tools/scope-reticle-levelers/vertical-reticle-instrument-prod6097.aspx?psize=96 (https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/sight-scope-installation-tools/scope-reticle-levelers/vertical-reticle-instrument-prod6097.aspx?psize=96)
This device would simplify centering the scopes vertical axis over the bore. But it would still involve rotating the scope in the mounts. With the mounts offset to one side the gun would still have to held crooked for this to work. That and having the scope mounted crooked to the gun would give me fits. I'll have to zero my rifle at 25 yards for practical use and then make up that DOPE sheet to change it to a ten yard zero
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First, you square up the mounts. Then the scope so that everything is aligned with the bore.
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First, you square up the mounts. Then the scope so that everything is aligned with the bore.
that would make the most sense. The only rings I know that are self centering are the BKLs and somebody just posted that he had two scopes slide in the clamps at 10 inlbs and kinked the scopes when tightened to15 inlbs. So I'm at a loss for options. No other centering 11mm rings are springer appropriate. At least that I know of.
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According to BKL, base mount screw 35in/lbs. Scope rings torqued to 15in/lbs. It's important to have a properly working torque wrench.
They also make a point to say: "Do not close the gap between the edges of the ring (the flat surfaces where the screws are) as this might crush your scope tube! Please refer to our technical data sheet for more information."
https://www.bkltech.com/articles.asp?id=134 (https://www.bkltech.com/articles.asp?id=134)
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Today I noticed when my scopes are zeroed at 25 yards they shoot low and left in the basement at 10 yards. When i zero at 10 yards in the basement I'm high and right at 25 yards. I'm using Hawke match mounts and sports match dovetail mounts. I use these because they have recoil pins and hang tight to my springers. I expected vertical differences at these ranges, but it's annoying to have to change windage adjustments all the time. I like the idea of the self centering BKL mounts but they don't have recoil pins and don't want the scopes sliding in the dovetails. Is there a solution to this??
I used to have a laterally shifting poi "close to far" till I simply leveled the R9 or HW95 using a "tested good level" on the barrel pivot "flat spot", then rotating the scope in the rings till the vertical crosshair lined up perfectly with a hanging string with weight, the verifying that both the "level bubble" was centered and the reticle was aligned with the hanging string.......
(https://i.imgur.com/aU2yYyQl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/E8E45o7l.jpg)
Anywhoo, I shot this "trajectory target" to get a handle on the trajectory of a certain tune level using the above scope alignment method coupled with optically centering the scope via "mirror method" and then bending the barrel till the poi was 1" (or less) of the poa, then the fine adjustments were done using the scope turrets. As usual, all 165 shots were taken sitting on a bucket resting the gun on cross sticks............
(https://i.imgur.com/5ko3WLgl.jpg)
As you can see......all groups were vertically aligned from 10 yards till the first 45 yard group, however I decided to tighten the barrel pivot bolt a tad since the barrel pivot tension had gotten "sloppier than usual" after thousands of shots. The second 45 yard group and the barrel pivot adjustment shifted the poi about 1" to the right. Readjusted the windage and shot the last two groups at 50 yards.
Anywhoo....for my HW break barrel springers optically centering the scope, bending the barrel till the poi matched the poa, leveling the guns with level on top of barrel pivot block, then rotating the scope in the rings till aligned with hanging string before tightening the mount top straps has worked for me.
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Today I noticed when my scopes are zeroed at 25 yards they shoot low and left in the basement at 10 yards. When i zero at 10 yards in the basement I'm high and right at 25 yards. I'm using Hawke match mounts and sports match dovetail mounts. I use these because they have recoil pins and hang tight to my springers. I expected vertical differences at these ranges, but it's annoying to have to change windage adjustments all the time. I like the idea of the self centering BKL mounts but they don't have recoil pins and don't want the scopes sliding in the dovetails. Is there a solution to this??
I used to have a laterally shifting poi "close to far" till I simply leveled the R9 or HW95 using a "tested good level" on the barrel pivot "flat spot", then rotating the scope in the rings till the vertical crosshair lined up perfectly with a hanging string with weight, the verifying that both the "level bubble" was centered and the reticle was aligned with the hanging string.......
(https://i.imgur.com/aU2yYyQl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/E8E45o7l.jpg)
Anywhoo, I shot this "trajectory target" to get a handle on the trajectory of a certain tune level using the above scope alignment method coupled with optically centering the scope via "mirror method" and then bending the barrel till the poi was 1" (or less) of the poa, then the fine adjustments were done using the scope turrets. As usual, all 165 shots were taken sitting on a bucket resting the gun on cross sticks............
(https://i.imgur.com/5ko3WLgl.jpg)
As you can see......all groups were vertically aligned from 10 yards till the first 45 yard group, however I decided to tighten the barrel pivot bolt a tad since the barrel pivot tension had gotten "sloppier than usual" after thousands of shots. The second 45 yard group and the barrel pivot adjustment shifted the poi about 1" to the right. Readjusted the windage and shot the last two groups at 50 yards.
Anywhoo....for my HW break barrel springers optically centering the scope, bending the barrel till the poi matched the poa, leveling the guns with level on top of barrel pivot block, then rotating the scope in the rings till aligned with hanging string before tightening the mount top straps has worked for me.
Thanks Ed. I did exactly what you described. Bubble levels, plum bob and all. I think my issue comes from the rings and mounts being made to fit both 3/8" and 11mm dovetails. This offsets the scope to the left or right of the bore when both the rifle and scope are level and plum to the earth and each other. I have basically the same situation on all my scoped rifles because most all dovetail rings are made "universal". I was considering the UTG rail adapter you're using but it mounts the scope higher than I like. It works and looks fine on your guns with 50mm objectives. With my 40mm objectives it just won't look right to me. I know this is stupid reasoning but I like simplicity. I was considering the BKLs until I saw your pictures.
Thanks again for your time and patience with my stupidity.
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First, you square up the mounts. Then the scope so that everything is aligned with the bore.
Yes! Absolutly. get the best alignment of the scope to the gun by switching around the mounts as suggested first.
If you really want the least parallax and best definition and field of view from any scope you would optically center the reticle in the scope. The closer the reticle is to the edge of the sight picture the worse everything gets.
To do it you set the scope in a fixed set of rings or two pieces of wood with v notches cut so you can roll the scope in them without moving the base set up. The scope should not move in space, just roll as if on bearings outside the tube. As you rotate the scope you keep adjusting the turrets until the cross hair always points to one spot in the distance.
Now that you have the scope optically centered you can use adjustable height and windage mounts, or to a lesser degree, standard mounts in different location and direction as above, to attach the scope so the gun is sighted as close as possible and absolute minimum turret adjustments away from optical center only fine tune your aim. It takes considerable trial and error. But once you get it you then adjust the reticle to square with the bore and install the scope level as in that link.
I've only done all this including adjustable mounts for my two FX guns, it's pain in the ash, but worth it on great shooters with high mag. scopes, the guns the I shoot everywhere from 10-115 yds. Other guns get different levels of mounting care based on what I expect from them.
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I was considering the UTG rail adapter you're using but it mounts the scope higher than I like. It works and looks fine on your guns with 50mm objectives. With my 40mm objectives it just won't look right to me.
Why not use the UTG adapter with lower mounts? The Weaver Quad lock that Ed and I use are available at Walmart for less than $15.
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According to BKL, base mount screw 35in/lbs. Scope rings torqued to 15in/lbs. It's important to have a properly working torque wrench.
They also make a point to say: "Do not close the gap between the edges of the ring (the flat surfaces where the screws are) as this might crush your scope tube! Please refer to our technical data sheet for more information."
https://www.bkltech.com/articles.asp?id=134 (https://www.bkltech.com/articles.asp?id=134)
"According to BKL, base mount screw 35in/lbs. Scope rings torqued to 15in/lbs."
Please post where I can find BKL specs for the "top strap screws". I've looked for this spec several times to no avail and all I can find is this.......
https://www.bkltech.com/articles.asp?id=134 (https://www.bkltech.com/articles.asp?id=134)
Ithem #12 from the above link........
"What is the recommended torque applied to the base screws?
Our recommendation is 35 in/lbs. If there is a problem with clamping after this much pressure has been applied then please contact us."
This is #15 from the above link.......
"How do I know when the scope tube is properly clamped?
When the oval shape of the ring becomes a circle around the scope tube and no gap is seen between inside diameter of the ring and the outside diameter of the scope tube. Important: Do not close the gap between the edges of the ring (the flat surfaces where the screws are) as this might crush your scope tube!"
NO MENTION OF SCREW TORQUE
Here is scope slippage in BKL rings with 10in/lbs of torque with BKL "double strappers".........
(https://i.imgur.com/8u7bshQl.jpg)
Here is scope tube damage using 15in/lbs torque with BKL "double strappers"....
(https://i.imgur.com/vk6Vlyxl.jpg)
Scope slippage using one piece BKL mounts with the wider top straps.........
(https://i.imgur.com/5wBaWVCl.jpg)
There was no scope tube damage using 15in/lbs of torque with the wider top straps of the one piece mount but the scope slipped in the rings with 15in/lbs screw torque..........
(https://i.imgur.com/k6N36xQl.jpg)
I solved the "scope slipping in the rings" issue by lining the saddle and top strap with pieces of cloth electrical friction tape, however I never could solve the scope slipping in on the receiver dovetails even using 40in/lbs base screw torque (5in/lbs above the BKL recommended max torque).......
(https://i.imgur.com/eQu97U8l.jpg)
Anywhoo....I gave up on my one and two piece BKLs and started using mounts with stop pins..........
(https://i.imgur.com/lXo9HDBl.jpg)
LOL.....I guess there is a reason BKL came out with these "gems"..........
(https://i.imgur.com/K5zq8jil.jpg)
If used in pairs that would be EIGHT base clamp screws and TWELVE top strap screws which I THINK may hold both the scope and receiver dovetails without slipping! :o
The above reasons are why I was pleased to find the UTG adapter that is one piece like the BKL, however they also come with stop pins.
(https://i.imgur.com/eQu97U8l.jpg)
The UTG adapter geometry.......
(https://i.imgur.com/Kzc3el7l.png)(https://i.imgur.com/A2uZhgnl.png)(https://i.imgur.com/d1qT29Al.png)
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Now THAT is a springer proof rail!
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I believe what you are dealing with is scope cant ...
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=129954.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=129954.0)
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Ed (nced), I have an email into BKL about their technical data sheet & where to find it. Stay tuned.
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I believe what you are dealing with is scope cant ...
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=129954.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=129954.0)
yes I know. Thanks for posting this link though. There's a great diagram on that thread that explains my situation perfectly. I'm just reluctant to deliberately mount the scope crooked to the gun and then hold the gun crooked to correct the cant. As suggested here I will try flipping the rings on the guns the can be. This however would only make an improvement if the barrel is bent to one side. Other than that flipping the will only shift the cant error bias to the other side. So far nced UTG rails and weaver mounts may be the best way to center the scope over the bore on a dovetailed rifle.
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Ed (nced), I have an email into BKL about their technical data sheet & where to find it. Stay tuned.
IF there are actual torque specs for the top straps that would be great. Going by this "copy and paste" from their web site I really doubt it and the warning "do not close the gap between the edges (etc)" does seem to indicate that it's possible to over torque the top strap screws if the "allen wrench twister" wasn't careful.
"How do I know when the scope tube is properly clamped?
When the oval shape of the ring becomes a circle around the scope tube and no gap is seen between inside diameter of the ring and the outside diameter of the scope tube. Important: Do not close the gap between the edges of the ring (the flat surfaces where the screws are) as this might crush your scope tube! Please refer to our technical data sheet for more information."
Anywhoo....I do know that when using 10in/lbs of top strap screw torque the relatively light 4-12x40 Vortex Diamondback shifted in the rings after only a couple hundred shots, then the scope tube was damaged using 15in/lbs torque.
(https://i.imgur.com/8u7bshQl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/vk6Vlyxl.jpg)
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Received a response from BKL.
Hi Dave,
The Torque recommendation for the cap screws is simply to hand tighten with no more torque than 15 inlbs.
Thanks!
Leah
Leah Chesser
Auto-Numatic Corp. Retail Products Division
AirForce Airguns|BKL Technology| AirForce International|Rapid Air Weapons
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Received a response from BKL.
Hi Dave,
The Torque recommendation for the cap screws is simply to hand tighten with no more torque than 15 inlbs.
Thanks!
Leah
Leah Chesser
Auto-Numatic Corp. Retail Products Division
AirForce Airguns|BKL Technology| AirForce International|Rapid Air Weapons
Hummm.....I do dispute the BKL torque claims because I have a couple 1" scope tubes that were damaged using 15in/lbs torque with the two piece BKL "double strappers".
There was no scope tube damage using 15in/lbs top strap screw torque with the one piece BKL mount since the single top straps are wider but the wider BKL top straps did allow my scope to shift in the one piece mount unless I lined the rings with cloth electrical tape. I never did solve the one piece BKL mount/scope shifting on my Beeman R9 OR HW95 scope dovetails even though the base screws were torqued to 40in/lbs (5in/lbs above BKL max recommended torque) ..............
(https://i.imgur.com/XF3r4Csl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/NW0Tyk6l.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/lXo9HDBl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/vk6Vlyxl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/LamRSe1l.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/k6N36xQl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/eQu97U8l.jpg)
Anywhoo.......when using 15in/lbs top strap screw torque with a 1" tube scope it seems that scope tube damage depends which BKL mount is used.......damage for two scope tubes with the "double strappers" and no scope tube damage using the one piece BKL with th ewider top straps. If scope slippage or scope tube damage wasn't an issue using the NORMAL 15in/lbs of torque then why does BKL offer this gem.........
(https://i.imgur.com/K5zq8jil.jpg)
When I used the UTG Universal Adapter plus a set of Weaver Quad Lock mounts there is no 1" scope tube damage using 15in/lbs, plus the scope was held firmly in the rings using only 10in/lbs top strap screw torque (narrow tops straps like the BKLs). The universal adapter costs about $13.............
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/utg-universal-dovetail-to-picatinny-weaver-adapter?a=7311 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/utg-universal-dovetail-to-picatinny-weaver-adapter?a=7311)
The Weaver Quad Lock rings for a 1" tube scope only costs about $10 at "WallyMart" ($23 for both). For my new Hawke compact scope with 30mm tube I bought this set of Sniper rings (about $9) to mount on the adapter. Total cost for adapter and rings ($22).............
https://www.amazon.com/Sniper-PT-30L4-Profile-Picatinny-Security/dp/B00X5NTIKM/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=sniper+scope+rings&qid=1571077298&sr=8-2 (https://www.amazon.com/Sniper-PT-30L4-Profile-Picatinny-Security/dp/B00X5NTIKM/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=sniper+scope+rings&qid=1571077298&sr=8-2)
(https://i.imgur.com/Ito5HrNl.jpg)
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In this thread I finally figured out how BKL's mounts are self-centering.
When messing around with peep sights the past couple months, I realized that not all dovetails are the same width; before hand, I had never bothered to measure and compare them between rifles. If the mounts you are using aren't made for the exact width of your dovetails, your scope will not be in-line with your barrel no matter what you try to do. Really frustrating. Now, I'm cringing from the thought of how many of my rifles have mounts that aren't appropriate for the rifles they are on.
It would be neat if scope mount manufacturers would make their mounts so that the end consumer had to file the dovetail claw on the mount to customize it to the rifle that it will be installed on. Of course, a way to do that simply and easily would have to be devised for the end consumer- center marks on the mounts, something.
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In this thread I finally figured out how BKL's mounts are self-centering.
When messing around with peep sights the past couple months, I realized that not all dovetails are the same width; before hand, I had never bothered to measure and compare them between rifles. If the mounts you are using aren't made for the exact width of your dovetails, your scope will not be in-line with your barrel no matter what you try to do. Really frustrating. Now, I'm cringing from the thought of how many of my rifles have mounts that aren't appropriate for the rifles they are on.
It would be neat if scope mount manufacturers would make their mounts so that the end consumer had to file the dovetail claw on the mount to customize it to the rifle that it will be installed on. Of course, a way to do that simply and easily would have to be devised for the end consumer- center marks on the mounts, something.
Or just use a picatinny rail and ditch dovetails all together! :D
-Y
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I'm wondering, ha
In this thread I finally figured out how BKL's mounts are self-centering.
When messing around with peep sights the past couple months, I realized that not all dovetails are the same width; before hand, I had never bothered to measure and compare them between rifles. If the mounts you are using aren't made for the exact width of your dovetails, your scope will not be in-line with your barrel no matter what you try to do. Really frustrating. Now, I'm cringing from the thought of how many of my rifles have mounts that aren't appropriate for the rifles they are on.
It would be neat if scope mount manufacturers would make their mounts so that the end consumer had to file the dovetail claw on the mount to customize it to the rifle that it will be installed on. Of course, a way to do that simply and easily would have to be devised for the end consumer- center marks on the mounts, something.
Have you noticed any ACCURACY issues with slightly canted scope mounts?
Years ago both my brother and I used two piece mounts with separate clamp plates and neither of us had "accuracy issues", only mount slippage and stop pin hole damage. Here are a few groups shot decades ago by my brother and I using "canted mounts". All my groups were shot sitting on a bucket resting the R9 on cross sticks but my brother's groups were shot "bench rested". First two of my brothers "3 shot powder burner groups" shot back to back..........
(https://i.imgur.com/QDfRViZl.jpg)
Here are a few of my "bucket and sticks" groups from "way back when" using two piece "canted mounts"...........
(https://i.imgur.com/daG1cT8l.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/cTkKs8Ll.jpg)
As mentioned previously, I started using this adapter with Picatinny rings not long ago and it solved my mount/scope slippage issues with this $13 one piece design plus a set of $9 Weaver Quad Lock rings from "WallyMart".........
(https://i.imgur.com/APgWhdNl.png)(https://i.imgur.com/d1qT29Al.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/LunRxjVl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/XmYulwll.jpg)
Anywhoo......except for "non slipping of mount and scope", I haven't found that the "one piece design" to make my break barrel springers more accurate than the "slightly canted mounts" I used a few years back.......
(https://i.imgur.com/03OUPaBl.jpg)
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I'm only experiencing cant issues because I test and zero at ten yards in my basement. Being that close brings cant errors to light when I target shoot outdoors at 25 and 50 yards. The shots run high and to the right outdoors. When I zero at 25 yards my 50 yard groups are close enough laterally. When I return home the guns zeroed at 25 yards print low and left. I obviously expect vertical changes and can use the mildots for correction, but having to readjust the windage all the time gets old. It's pretty much a non issue if you zero rifle at 25 or 30 yards and normally shoot outdoors but it is if you have to shoot at close ranges most of the time.
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The easy solution is to zero at 25 yards. Then when testing indoors, don't worry about WHERE the pellets hit, you are looking for GROUPS! This also lets you shoot the same POA without messing it up with holes. Looking for groups, not location, should help with the OCD.
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I'm only experiencing cant issues because I test and zero at ten yards in my basement. Being that close brings cant errors to light when I target shoot outdoors at 25 and 50 yards. The shots run high and to the right outdoors. When I zero at 25 yards my 50 yard groups are close enough laterally. When I return home the guns zeroed at 25 yards print low and left. I obviously expect vertical changes and can use the mildots for correction, but having to readjust the windage all the time gets old. It's pretty much a non issue if you zero rifle at 25 or 30 yards and normally shoot outdoors but it is if you have to shoot at close ranges most of the time.
I have a suspicion that the "mount cant" isn't the issue but a matter of the scope reticle not being lined up with the bore. I used to have the same issue but I started leveling my R9 barrel pivot block, then lining up my scope verticle crosshair with a hanging plumb bob............
(https://i.imgur.com/aU2yYyQl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/E8E45o7l.jpg)
After using this method the "poi alignment issue" went away even though I was using mounts with a separate clamp plate at that time.
Here is a target I shot sitting on a bucket resting the gun on cross sticks using my .177 R9. I was checking out the pellet trajectory after a new tune to see if it came close to the ChairGun computer software output ( LOL....not even close). This target shows the poi of 165 consecutive shots from "bucket and sticks" at ranges from 10 yards to 50 yards and all groups are lined vertically even though the mounts had a separate clamp plate...........
(https://i.imgur.com/5ko3WLgl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/fgMZ7WVl.jpg)
Anywhoo....whatever works for you is best. If using a "one piece mount like the BKL" solves you "poi issues" that's good, however my poi "windage issues" at different distances was due to my scope reticle alignment, not the mount clamping method.
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I'm only experiencing cant issues because I test and zero at ten yards in my basement. Being that close brings cant errors to light when I target shoot outdoors at 25 and 50 yards. The shots run high and to the right outdoors. When I zero at 25 yards my 50 yard groups are close enough laterally. When I return home the guns zeroed at 25 yards print low and left. I obviously expect vertical changes and can use the mildots for correction, but having to readjust the windage all the time gets old. It's pretty much a non issue if you zero rifle at 25 or 30 yards and normally shoot outdoors but it is if you have to shoot at close ranges most of the time.
I have a suspicion that the "mount cant" isn't the issue but a matter of the scope reticle not being lined up with the bore. I used to have the same issue but I started leveling my R9 barrel pivot block, then lining up my scope verticle crosshair with a hanging plumb bob............
(https://i.imgur.com/aU2yYyQl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/E8E45o7l.jpg)
After using this method the "poi alignment issue" went away even though I was using mounts with a separate clamp plate at that time.
Here is a target I shot sitting on a bucket resting the gun on cross sticks using my .177 R9. I was checking out the pellet trajectory after a new tune to see if it came close to the ChairGun computer software output ( LOL....not even close). This target shows the poi of 165 consecutive shots from "bucket and sticks" at ranges from 10 yards to 50 yards and all groups are lined vertically even though the mounts had a separate clamp plate...........
(https://i.imgur.com/5ko3WLgl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/fgMZ7WVl.jpg)
Anywhoo....whatever works for you is best. If using a "one piece mount like the BKL" solves you "poi issues" that's good, however my poi "windage issues" at different distances was due to my scope reticle alignment, not the mount clamping method.
Thanks Ed. I use levels on the scope and the rifle and then check the reticle true with a plumb bob like you do. I'm terribly ocd and I can't tell you how many times I found scopes with reticles canted to the turrets. Thank you for taking the time to post your reply. I greatly appreciate your input.
Ps I'm not using the BKLs ever after the information you posted. Thanks for that too.
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<B>"I'm not using the BKLs ever after the information you posted"</B>
BKL mounts are indeed high quality mounts that are used successfully by many airgunners. The ONLY issue I have with them is the fact that the narrow top straps of the two piece mounts can damage scope tubes using 15 in/lbs of "top strap screw torque" and the scope slipped using 10 in/lbs of torque. The issues I've had with both the one piece and two piece BKLs is the fact that they slipped on the dovetails of both my .177 Beeman R9 and .177 HW95 which are tuned to no more than 14fpe (usually 12.5fpe). I did stop the scope slipping in the BKL one piece mount by lining the two rings with cloth electrical friction tape, however I never solved the mount slipping in the receiver dovetails, even when torqued to "excessive base screw torque" that deformed the metal inside the "clamp"..........
(https://i.imgur.com/lXo9HDBl.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/gUh6khCl.jpg)
LOL.....with the BKL mounts the excess base screw torque I used even stripped out the mount threads so I retapped the mount for larger screws. The larger screws did stop the thread stripping but still didn't stop "mount slipping" even when using 40 in/lbs of torque (5 in/lbs more than the BKL recommended max).........
(https://i.imgur.com/O3URm2Ll.jpg)
Anywhoo.........if the BKLs hold your scope and on your receiver dovetails they are certainly a good mount to use!
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<B>"I'm not using the BKLs ever after the information you posted"</B>
BKL mounts are indeed high quality mounts that are used successfully by many airgunners. The ONLY issue I have with them is the fact that the narrow top straps of the two piece mounts can damage scope tubes using 15 in/lbs of "top strap screw torque" and the scope slipped using 10 in/lbs of torque. The issues I've had with both the one piece and two piece BKLs is the fact that they slipped on the dovetails of both my .177 Beeman R9 and .177 HW95 which are tuned to no more than 14fpe (usually 12.5fpe). I did stop the scope slipping in the BKL one piece mount by lining the two rings with cloth electrical friction tape, however I never solved the mount slipping in the receiver dovetails, even when torqued to "excessive base screw torque" that deformed the metal inside the "clamp"..........
(https://i.imgur.com/lXo9HDBl.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/gUh6khCl.jpg)
LOL.....with the BKL mounts the excess base screw torque I used even stripped out the mount threads so I retapped the mount for larger screws. The larger screws did stop the thread stripping but still didn't stop "mount slipping" even when using 40 in/lbs of torque (5 in/lbs more than the BKL recommended max).........
(https://i.imgur.com/O3URm2Ll.jpg)
Anywhoo.........if the BKLs hold your scope and on your receiver dovetails they are certainly a good mount to use!
Still way to much work for me Ed. I like mounts/rings with arrestor pins and wide 4 screw clamps. Chasing scope shift and damaging scope tubes doesn't appeal to me. I'd rather re-zero my rifles.
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"I like mounts/rings with arrestor pins and wide 4 screw clamps"
I tend to agree and prefer mounts with stop pins. For some reason I found that the $9ish Weaver Quad Lock rings from "WallyMart" also have narrow top straps but will hold scopes in the rings of my Beeman R9 and HW95 using 10in/lbs top strap screw torque, yet the scope tube wasn't damaged using 15in/lbs top strap screw torque...........
(https://i.imgur.com/LunRxjVl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/XmYulwll.jpg)
"Me thinks" the reason is that the Quad Lock ring top straps wrap more than 1/2 way around the scope tube and the screws are at an angle........
(https://i.imgur.com/FMZ9XSXl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/U5JRaBdl.jpg)
I'm currently using an inexpensive "Sniper brand" Picatinny mount for my new Hawke Compact scope which has a 30mm tube and the Weaver Quad Locks only come in 1" tube size. LOL, my 4-16x44 Hawke Compact scope is a real short scope after mounting to the UTG dovetail to Picatinny adapter to my HW95........
(https://i.imgur.com/pfqvOtKl.jpg)
I got the notion to add a 4 1/2" long sunshade to the Hawke Compact scope and now the scope looks "almost normal size" mounted to my Beeman R9. The sunshade was made from 2" PVC pipe and fitting machined for a snug fit over the end of the scope bell. Then it was painted black (inside and out) and secured with a wrap of black PVC electrical tape. :o
(https://i.imgur.com/9F1cddsl.jpg)