GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Crosman Airguns => Topic started by: mikeyb on July 20, 2019, 08:56:37 AM
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The Crosman style trigger group can be made pretty nice, but it is important to understand how it works.
The trigger really isn't a 2-stage trigger.
The first stage is just trigger blade movement against a spring. The blade eventually touches the sear lever and begins to move it.
If the trigger blade spring is light enough, you should feel a light (fake) first stage that comes up against a second stage wall.
Once you hit that wall, a little extra trigger pressure should result in a clean snap release.
If you can't feel the transition, then the trigger blade spring is too stiff. It will feel like one long creepy trigger pull to an uncertain release point. That's how all mine feel fresh out of the box. You will need to lighten the trigger blade spring. This should also lighten the second stage force (a little) so making this mod correctly is a win-win.
Once you can feel a nice clean second stage wall you can attempt to shorten the second stage if it has too much travel or creep.
Assuming all the sear points are well formed (smooth) and lubed, a long second stage is typically due to a large sear overlap (reduces lawsuits). The rear screw is supposed to "pre-load" the sear lever to reduce sear overlap and shorten the second stage to release point. In practice, almost all manufacturers of this simple trigger style provide a screw that when all the way "in" BARELY TOUCHES the sear lever and does almost nothing to shorten the second stage (reduces lawsuits again).
I install a slightly longer adjustment screw that pre-loads (moves) the first sear lever so that there is about 0.030" sear overlap. In most cases this gives me a short crisp second stage with no creep.
To summarize, a lighter trigger blade spring and a longer adjustment screw carefully positioned to pre-load the first sear lever for a .030" overlap makes my Crosman triggers pretty sweet.
I get a long, but very light, fake first stage take-up to well defined second stage wall. Then it's just a nice crisp snap to fire. Have not had any bump-test failures with a 0.030" sear overlap, but I urge all trigger modders to be safe and thoroughly test their changes.
Note:
The Crosman trigger ball bearing fix is another option, but every time I use it I get NO first stage travel and a super short hair trigger. The trigger blade is also too far forward in the trigger guard for my grip and is very uncomfortable.
I've given up on the bearing fix because it just doesn't work for me, but feel free to try it on your Crosman. MANY people rave about the bearing fix so it must work some of the time.
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Two VERY different trigger groups are used on Crosman break barrel rifles. Mike doesn't appear to specify which type he's covering in his post but it appears he's dealing with the NP2 trigger pack. I find it a far nicer package than the trigger group used in the earlier (and still produced) NP series of guns. In fact it can be retrofitted to those older guns as a direct replacement. If you substitute a too light spring in the NP2 trigger pack the sear may fail to engage the piston resulting in a gun which will not cock. Use much caution when dealing with triggers.
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Two VERY different trigger groups are used on Crosman break barrel rifles. Mike doesn't appear to specify which type he's covering in his post but it appears he's dealing with the NP2 trigger pack. I find it a far nicer package than the trigger group used in the earlier (and still produced) NP series of guns. In fact it can be retrofitted to those older guns as a direct replacement. If you substitute a too light spring in the NP2 trigger pack the sear may fail to engage the piston resulting in a gun which will not cock. Use much caution when dealing with triggers.
Sorry about that. I am referring to older style Crosman trigger which is similar(same?) as most B19 style springers. It is also similar to the Hatsan Edge triggers and lighter spring with longer screw works with that particular trigger also.
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Thomas... I just picked up an NP2 Elite. It has a very long second stage. What would you suggest to lighten and shorten that second stage?
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Bill, give this a look.
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Yep Ken, I actually printed that one out. I was checking to see if Thomas may have a different approach.
If I decided to keep this gun.. which CDT trigger works in it? I hear CBR and then I hear not.
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BTW.... I hope the OP don't feel like I'm hijacking. I think this info goes along with his post.
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Yep, the CBR. This is the same trigger as the NPSS from several years ago.
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Does it eliminate the long second stage or just make a lighter trigger pull? I've used CDT trigger on Gamo... just not Crosman/Benjamin.
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You can adjust it to put the second stage pretty much where you want it. I have a long first with a short and light second.
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And that's the CBR in a NP2?
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No CBR, just the OEM blade.
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I fiddled with the screw a bit, didn't seem to do anything. Like I said in another thread... I'll take it apart and have a look. Tomorrow is Betty Lou's Birthday... might not get a chance to get to it.
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BTW.... I hope the OP don't feel like I'm hijacking. I think this info goes along with his post.
Thanks to all for the comments and contributions. All good!
I think my still boxed Crosman Summit Ranger might be the newer style trigger. If so, that linked pdf will be an excellent starting point when I go in for trigger mods. Hoping to find an easy/safe way to reduce the sear overlap which should shorten the second stage length for the new style trigger also. Will post back on this thread if I get any positive results not already posted.
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That is exactly what I was going to look at. Baby steps.... if you take it off you can't put it back on.
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Thomas... I just picked up an NP2 Elite. It has a very long second stage. What would you suggest to lighten and shorten that second stage?
Hi Bill.
Try turning the adjustment screw out. That helped me get a nice two stage feel out of my NP2. Out of the box, the screw was way too far in and precluded the 1st stage.
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I think my still boxed Crosman Summit Ranger might be the newer style trigger.
The gun I'm talking about is a $75 Summit Ranger. :)
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Hi Dan...
Is that not backwards of what the instructions from the manual says?
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Hi Dan...
Is that not backwards of what the instructions from the manual says?
With no frame of reference, all 1st stage feels the same as all 2nd stage.
I initially thought my problem was all 1st stage with no second stage, but a longer screw did not help (unless you want a single stage hair trigger. )
My actual problem was a long, all creep, 2nd stage. Turning the screw out allows the 1st stage to do some of the work before the 2nd stage screw engages. If the screw is in too far, you get an all 2nd stage creepy unpredictable pull. When I turned the screw out, I got a smooth 1st stage, then hit a second stage wall and get a clean break.
*this is for NP2.* Mike described the old NP/B19 trigger perfectly in his first post.
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NP2 triggers seem to vary quite a bit from unit to unit. Pay attention to Ken (Mobilehomer) he seems to be the NP2 trigger guru. My experience was difficulty finding just "the" right spring. This sets difficulty of pull. On my particular trigger the factory adjustment screw bottomed out was just about perfect. It had a short first stage before it hit the "wall", then "bang"!! I am NOT a trigger guru. I just followed Ken's instructions with fantastic results. Communicating with "DOKF" I learned the CBR trigger blade doesn't make nearly as much difference as finding the correct spring to start with. Since the CBR blade also comes with a spring that problem is solved for you painlessly. Even if I went with the CBR package I'd think real hard about adding the two number eight nylon washers on each side of the secondary sear.
'
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Comments on Crosman Summit Ranger purchased new from Midway and received July 18 2019.
Approximately $80 including shipping and taxes.
First impressions...
I like the look & feel of the rifle. Cocking action is as smooth as warm butter. Shot cycle is a quick solid thump right out of the box. No need to open up the power plant. I like the clean and thin open sights. No big fat plastic chunks, hoods, or cheap fiber optic light pipes to block my view of the TARGET!
Tried a few shots standing freehand at 25' using CPHP 14.3 grain pellets. Shotgun pattern mostly due to the trigger, but I also needed to adjust my artillery hold positions and follow through.
Trigger... This is the new improved Crosman CBT trigger? I guess I'm becoming a real trigger snob because I think this trigger is a really SAD STEP BACKWARDS.
Rear screw is part of the trigger blade instead of the trigger frame and was all the way in as received. Basically it came as a single stage trigger with a long hard creepy travel to fire. I tried shooting it with the adjustment screw backed out all the way hoping to get some form of first stage feel, even if it was just "fake" first stage blade slack take-up. Didn't work that way on my rifle. Trigger actually got much worse. That gave me an even longer creepy trigger travel to... no fire! Lowered and inverted rifle to inspect trigger, but kept it pointed towards a safe target... BANG! It fired!?
Tried that 3 times and got similar random long delayed fires. My rifle was VERY SCARY & DANGEROUS with that screw backed all the way out!
I was VERY impressed with everything else on this rifle and the price was too good to pass up, so I decided it was a keeper and worth voiding the warranty.
I opened up the trigger group for a full inspection. Cleaned and deburred sear levers, polished the rough sear faces, added some washers as suggested in that linked pdf, lubed all moving parts, AND I installed a slightly longer adjustment screw with a well rounded and polished tip. NO spring change for now.
The sear overlap with the factory screw full-in looked to be over 0.060". This much overlap usually results in a long creep to fire. I carefully watched the sear overlap as I turned in the NEW screw because in this trigger design it begins to reduce sear overlap immediately. Got the sear overlap down to ~0.030" and put the action back into the stock.
The trigger is still single stage and firm (IMHO good for hunting), but length of travel and creep are greatly reduced and it passes my bump test.
I was able to get 1/2" five shot groups at 25' standing freehand. That is VERY GOOD for me since I don't normally do that well freehand.
The position of the trigger blade is little far forward in the trigger guard for my hand position, but I can still shoot with good accuracy. If I could get the trigger blade to move back about 1/4"- 3/8" taking up a first stage slack/travel, the trigger blade position would be IDEAL for hitting a second stage wall to fire.
IMO this new CBT is NOT a better design than the old B19 style... yet. A lighter (but not too light) trigger blade spring will reduce trigger force. It may also allow me to feel if there really is 2 points of contact (2 stages) with the sear lever. As it is now, it looks and feels like a single stage only trigger. Blade position and travel can't be adjusted independently without more serious mods. I have a couple ideas, but need to test them for performance and safety before I post results here.
Uncertain if it will fit, but I may also try to install a spare older Crosman trigger group in this rifle. I KNOW I can adjust that trigger group to get just the right travel and force I prefer.
Overall I really LIKE this rifle, I'm just disappointed in the performance of the supposedly improved Clean Break Trigger.
CBT... Less parts, simpler to manufacture, easier to factory assemble, improved profit margin, all YES!
Better trigger performance? IMO NO!
Due to manufacturing tolerances and minor differences between specific rifle models, you may get/have a CBT trigger that performs better than mine.
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... A lighter (but not too light) trigger blade spring will reduce trigger force. It may also allow me to feel if there really is 2 points of contact (2 stages) with the sear lever....
I think you'll find that's the case. Unlike the B19 trigger, the CBT has a true two stage geometry hidden under that heavy spring.
Good luck with yours!
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My Crosman Summit Ranger arrived July 15 from Midway, great deal.
The trigger adjustment screw was all the way in making it a single stage action using only the second stage contact point, the screw.
Adjusting the screw out 3 turns resulted in a single stage action using only the first stage contact point, the ridge in the channel that the sear rides in.
Adjusted the screw in 1 turn to get the two stage trigger action. Trigger pull measured 6 lb 10 ounces.
This morning I installed the SLT Trigger Kit from eBay but did not polish or add any lube. Trigger pull measured 3 lb 11 ounces with a clearly defined second stage.
I have fired a total of 5 pellets thru this rifle. Some break-in plus polish and lube of the trigger assembly should make it even lighter and smoother.
My other rifles with the Kit installed, polished and moly lubed measure 1 lb 14 ounces to 2 lb 2 ounces.
The CBT has the potential to be a very nice two stage trigger.
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I had a little time this morning to look a bit closer at the Crosman CBT in my Summit Ranger.
Also received a trigger scale last week so I can now quantify what trigger force feels good (or not).
With my longer screw mod to shorten the long trigger travel and NO spring change, the trigger scale averaged just under 6 lbs. I think this is still too heavy.
I measured the factory coil spring wire at 0.035" thick. Spring has 0.25" outer diameter and 0.525" free length.
I have some 0.026" "full hard temper steel spring wire". Wound a spring that measures 0.25" outer diameter and 0.550" long from the 0.026" wire. It was obviously lower force, but I was uncertain exactly how it would work (or not) in the CBT.
Reassembled the trigger with the custom spring and installed action into the stock. Rifle cocked just fine and trigger seemed to be stable. Trigger scale now averages 2.5 lbs. MUCH BETTER!
DanD was correct that this really IS a 2-stage trigger. I can now feel the 2 contact points and watch how they interact with the sear lever. I reinstalled the factory adjustment screw since my longer screw mod is no longer needed and could be dangerous if over adjusted. I now have the trigger adjustment screw set for a moderate first stage followed by a short crisp second stage.
Sub-dime 10 shot groups (30' w/open sights) are now EASIER because trigger force is lighter.
There is one WARNING I should mention for anyone attempting this type of modification. I suspect the factory spring is STIFF so that when the trigger is partially set and then released, the sear levers will return to FULL ENGAGEMENT. I can tell that my lighter spring does NOT do this reliably every time. If I partially set the trigger and release it, the sears move and may STAY at a reduced engagement until the trigger is pulled through full release. This is usable, but I'd prefer a fully resetting sear engagement.
I plan to make another spring using 0.029" spring wire. My goal is to have the sears fully reset after a partial trigger pull and release. I'm hoping the 0.029" spring will result in a trigger force around 3.5 pounds max. Will update with new results when available.
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There is one WARNING I should mention for anyone attempting this type of modification. I suspect the factory spring is STIFF so that when the trigger is partially set and then released, the sear levers will return to FULL ENGAGEMENT. I can tell that my lighter spring does NOT do this reliably every time. If I partially set the trigger and release it, the sears move and may STAY at a reduced engagement until the trigger is pulled through full release. This is usable, but I'd prefer a fully resetting sear engagement.
This is BALK FIRING and not a function of the spring, Read this article -
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=18419.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=18419.0)