GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: YEMX on July 14, 2019, 03:42:30 PM
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Another thread got my brain rolling...
I found this on Aliexpress:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32819121608.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.9.383e2535CCAu7t&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0%2Csearchweb201602_1_10065_10130_10068_10547_319_10546_317_10548_10545_10696_10084_453_454_10083_10618_10307_537_536_10059_10884_10887_321_322_10103%2Csearchweb201603_53%2CppcSwitch_0&algo_expid=6858051f-65bd-4e76-9422-905e22829a56-1&algo_pvid=6858051f-65bd-4e76-9422-905e22829a56&transAbTest=ae803_5 (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32819121608.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.9.383e2535CCAu7t&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0%2Csearchweb201602_1_10065_10130_10068_10547_319_10546_317_10548_10545_10696_10084_453_454_10083_10618_10307_537_536_10059_10884_10887_321_322_10103%2Csearchweb201603_53%2CppcSwitch_0&algo_expid=6858051f-65bd-4e76-9422-905e22829a56-1&algo_pvid=6858051f-65bd-4e76-9422-905e22829a56&transAbTest=ae803_5)
Basically, it's a drop down adapter for an AF gun... The idea is to use it as an adapter to attach a small 350cc tank to the gun, replacing the reservoir. I know there'll be more work to make this adapter work, but would THIS adapter work?
I'm thinking maybe making a short-ish prechamber, throw this on the end of it and make an adapter for the tank side. Thoughts? There's a cheaper one of these as well, $41. They look to be the same.
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sadly NO
The PP700 would require a drop block that had the same receiver mounting pattern of the regulator ( 4 bolts in an off square pattern )
Am surprised with this topic coming up fairly often sense these pistols came out that no one has stepped up and produced such a drop block.
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sadly NO
The PP700 would require a drop block that had the same receiver mounting pattern of the regulator ( 4 bolts in an off square pattern )
Am surprised with this topic coming up fairly often sense these pistols came out that no one has stepped up and produced such a drop block.
Well, the idea would be to reuse the original silver part that threads into the gun, and re-use a section of the factory tube to create a sort of pre-chamber. Then make a coupler that threads into the pre-chamber and this drop adapter... Then the other side of this drop adapter would have another coupler to go between the drop down and either the tank or the tank's reg...
Did That make any sense? I have a hard time properly describing what's in my head... I'll draw a quick pic and post it if you're having trouble picturing what I'm typing...
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Makes sense and also a LONG air bottle configuration. ideally JUNK the OEM reg and use a NINJA type at the bottle connection.
Tho said ... more than 1 way to skin a cat ???
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Makes sense and also a LONG air bottle configuration. ideally JUNK the OEM reg and use a NINJA type at the bottle connection.
Tho said ... more than 1 way to skin a cat ???
Oh absolutely... I'm taking my PP700 apart... I want to see what I'm working with... I know I don't need one, but I think I'm going to re-design the rotating breech block so I can have a bolt handle... I do so love those USFT's... Maybe use something silly, like a 22xx knob or something. ;D
In my original build, I "deleted" the factory reg and I have installed a HuMa- that's why I wanted to to retain the original silver adapter part, and re-use part of the original reservoir. I could retain the HuMa reg and just use a tank... The length of the original reservoir (if I can even use it) would only be as long as needed to house the HuMa reg and the drop down adapter... adapter? End cap? I'm not sure how to word that.
Another idea is... Junk the original silver part as you mentioned, and make a new one that's hogged out as much as possible (not really looking for too much flow, as this is gonna be a .20 or .22, 15 fpe or so). Maybe use a section of Mrod main tube. They LOOK the same. I'll take measurements tomorrow. If I can use/modify a section of Mrod tube, I can use a Brod conversion block for this build... Maybe. Dunno. Just a thought.
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If I do go down the bottle conversion route, I think I'll definitely scrap the factory reg body (silver piece) and just make (or have made) a new one. The Mrod tube and factory PP700 tubes are close- 1.25" vs. 1.26" respectively. Which means I can use a section from the front of a scrapped Mrod tube and use a Brod conversion block to do the bottle conversion...
What am I getting myself into? ;D ;D ;D
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If you really want to wake the gun up and give it some more potential, then enlarge the hole that the air travels into the gun from. The one that sits between the two o-rings on the silver piece is what I'm talking about. That hole is tiny. You can only take it so far with the factory silver piece in place, BUT if you're removing that silver piece(factory reg housing), then you should be able to make a pretty good improvement in air flow to the valve. You could also give the gun an actual plenum to work with too while you're at it! If you're able to do that stuff, then it will be a whole different animal me thinks :D
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If you really want to wake the gun up and give it some more potential, then enlarge the hole that the air travels into the gun from. The one that sits between the two o-rings on the silver piece is what I'm talking about. That hole is tiny. You can only take it so far with the factory silver piece in place, BUT if you're removing that silver piece(factory reg housing), then you should be able to make a pretty good improvement in air flow to the valve. You could also give the gun an actual plenum to work with too while you're at it! If you're able to do that stuff, then it will be a whole different animal me thinks :D
That's the plan! I'm not trying to make this a MONSTER, but I'd like to make improvements where I can and let the whole system breathe better... I WILL be making a new "silver piece", because I'd rather make a coupler that's sized for the Mrod tube, rather than making an adapter to fit the factory stuff... I'm not sure if that made sense... :-\ As soon as I get it disassembled, I'll start posting pictures and such.
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Tom, SUBSCRIBED! ;D
Very interesting, keep us updated. I'd be interested as long as the thing doesn't get any longer..., bulkier is fine, just not longer, rather shorter if anything....!
Matthias
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If you really want to wake the gun up and give it some more potential, then enlarge the hole that the air travels into the gun from. The one that sits between the two o-rings on the silver piece is what I'm talking about. That hole is tiny. You can only take it so far with the factory silver piece in place, BUT if you're removing that silver piece(factory reg housing), then you should be able to make a pretty good improvement in air flow to the valve. You could also give the gun an actual plenum to work with too while you're at it! If you're able to do that stuff, then it will be a whole different animal me thinks :D
How much larger do you think we can go?
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Tom, SUBSCRIBED! ;D
Very interesting, keep us updated. I'd be interested as long as the thing doesn't get any longer..., bulkier is fine, just not longer, rather shorter if anything....!
Matthias
I'm not trying to go longer unless I have to. But even if I have to go longer, it will only be as long as is necessary to put the LDC threads past the tank.
Okay, this is what's in my head so far for the overall build:
- New "silver piece" with a larger port and made to fit a Mrod tube
- Mrod tube length is to be determined
- Brod bottle adapter
- 200 cc bottle (because I already have one)
- Breech will have both those pellet loading tabs (JSAR breech) and also more material so I can add a bolt handle (yeah, I don't NEED it, but so what?)
- Folding stock similar to KRG Whiskey 3 chassis. Probably the same kind of grips, since I have a set here to play with
Other than that, I'd like to re-use the rest of the factory parts. I'll figure it all out as we go along. I'm really hoping to be able to re-use that HuMa reg w/the Mrod tube, so I can just thread the bottle into the Brod adapter and keep the OAL as short as possible.
What I'm really hoping, with regard to the bottle stuff:
- 200 cc tank w/just the adapter to direct thread into the Brod conversion block (to keep OAL short)
- Able to reuse the HuMa reg
- The 200 cc tank/Brod adapter is short enough so that I can have a decent sized pre-chamber in front of the HuMa reg... Not sure what's an appropriate size. I'd like to keep this pistol around 15-20 fpe... Or maybe 30 fpe if the new "silver piece" with larger through port works out. For now, I'm going to keep the energy conservatively at 15-20 fpe... Again, this is all hopes and speculation right now!!
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I can't wait to see how this turns out! You are definitely going to need to come up with some plenum one way or another to reach the higher end of the numbers regulated I think. I completely bored out the factory reg housing on mine, and was able to reach 25fpe in .177 unregulated, but 20fpe is the upper limit on regulated power with mine. Back before the FB group for these was shut down, one of the guys did a bottle with drop block on his. I think he was able to get it close to 30fpe in .22., but I can't remember what kind of drop block he used. I know he installed a pressure gauge on the side of the breech to show regulated pressure.
I think you'll end up with a cool little beast either way :D
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It'll be a fun build for sure! I'm definitely going to keep this build more modest, I don't want to even attempt to go above and beyond what is realistically capable for this platform... So 15-20 fpe is still the main focus... Once I get the gun apart, I can do some real preliminary mock ups...
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If you really want to wake the gun up and give it some more potential, then enlarge the hole that the air travels into the gun from. The one that sits between the two o-rings on the silver piece is what I'm talking about. That hole is tiny. You can only take it so far with the factory silver piece in place, BUT if you're removing that silver piece(factory reg housing), then you should be able to make a pretty good improvement in air flow to the valve. You could also give the gun an actual plenum to work with too while you're at it! If you're able to do that stuff, then it will be a whole different animal me thinks :D
How much larger do you think we can go?
I missed this part earlier. If you are able to push the rear facing o-ring as far as possible to the rear of the new silver piece you are going to make, I think you can probably open up that hole at least close to bore size, but it may need to be a bit oval shaped. The factory hole is probably less than .100 if I remember correctly. I would have to look at it again to be sure on that though. You shouldn't have any problem figuring out how much you can open it once you get it apart I don't think. If not for that tiny hole, I think I could have gotten my .177 over 30fpe. I wasn't able to open it very much at all with the factory reg housing.
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Well... I got the pistol apart and did a mock-up... Good news and bad news folks. Bad news first:
We're gonna have to make the gun longer. Even with no plenum, the barrel won't clear the tank. This is a 200 cc tank too, a 350 cc will be even longer. Now, how much longer depends on a few things- how long to make the plenum, whether or not the Huma can be re-used in the Mrod tube or if I have to go with a Ninja clone reg... The good news is that the Brod bottle drop adapter will work!!
Just barely, but it really looks like it'll work. That's with the barrel shroud on. I plan on re-using the LDC adapter. Anyhoo, real basic mock-up here:
(https://i.imgur.com/dhyGUXo.jpg)
Rallyshark, which hole are you talking about enlarging?
This one:
(https://i.imgur.com/oP5ZX1A.jpg)
Or this one:
(https://i.imgur.com/IqooPYk.jpg)
After doing some measuring, I came to the conclusion that I CAN re-use the Huma reg in a Mrod tube, so we're good. Also, some more "bad" news. The factory tube length is basically what I'll need to have 30 cc's+ of air after subtracting the space needed for the Huma and the bottle conversion block. ::) Which is fine, but I'll need to have a 17-18" OAL barrel so I can mount an LDC... I'll have to figure out what I'm going to do about the barrel... If I can go bigger on the O.D. of the barrel, I will. I don't think I have the room for it though. It's probably why they went with such a thin barrel- to have more material up front to clear the air ways to the valve...
EDIT:
Man, that barrel really IS thin... At the rear, where the o-rings are, the sleeve is .472" O.D. The barrel itself is about .392"... There MIGHT be enough room to make the barrel bore .472" all the way through... I guess I could secure the barrel with a grub screws in the dovetail- that way they can be hidden when I put on a scope...
For those that have messed with the pistol- do you think there's enough room to up the barrel bore to .472" all the way through, or will I hit an air way?
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what about simply doing an Mrod tube with an offset ( eccentric non centered ) adapter to fit the inlet of the gun .. in other words.. it would just be a pp700 with a regged and shortened marauder tube , same front end fill assembly.. same everything but shortened with a read adapter ( which would be the hard part to make
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What would be the point of that be? That's just a PP700 with extra steps, and a foster fill instead of a probe... Also, there's no need for an offset adapter if using an Mrod tube, since an Mrod tube and a factory PP700 tube is nearly identical. At least in my case- as I measured my examples of both the PP700 tube and Mrod tube here at the house, with my (not extremely accurate but good enough) instruments...
I'm trying to add a bottle to my PP700 and keep it as short as possible so that I can have a compact foldable carbine with more air...
Although, you do bring up a viable option if I decide to possibly go with a longer barrel... That is, if I can open up the receiver's barrel bore w/no issues... That's a touch less than 17.25" of a longer tube. Hmmmm... I might have to buy a 2nd PP700 and see what this contraption would look like!
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What would be the point of that be? That's just a PP700 with extra steps, and a foster fill instead of a probe... Also, there's no need for an offset adapter if using an Mrod tube, since an Mrod tube and a factory PP700 tube is nearly identical. At least in my case- as I measured my examples of both the PP700 tube and Mrod tube here at the house, with my (not extremely accurate but good enough) instruments...
I'm trying to add a bottle to my PP700 and keep it as short as possible so that I can have a compact foldable carbine with more air...
Although, you do bring up a viable option if I decide to possibly go with a longer barrel... That is, if I can open up the receiver's barrel bore w/no issues... That's a touch less than 17.25" of a longer tube. Hmmmm...
ok i forgot the PP700 actually had a pretty fat tube .. something along the lines of 32 mm o.d..
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ok i forgot the PP700 actually had a pretty fat tube .. something along the lines of 32 mm o.d..
No worries! ;D Yeah- it's 1.26" O.D. Or, "close enough to an Mrod to work"
Considering my goal is realistically a max of 20 fpe, I should be able to drop an inch or two off the factory tube, re-thread it for the Brod adapter, and re-make that rear end cap. Or possibly just open up the through hole a touch, since there won't be any guts in there. Throw in a plug for the back of the silver piece and I should be able to call it a day... What are y'all's thoughts on this? Again, realistically I'm looking for a max of 20 fpe. I'd probably tune it for around 12-15 fpe.
I started farting around w/the KRG grips to see what I can do with them... It's looking very promising!
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ok i forgot the PP700 actually had a pretty fat tube .. something along the lines of 32 mm o.d..
No worries! ;D Yeah- it's 1.26" O.D. Or, "close enough to an Mrod to work"
Considering my goal is realistically a max of 20 fpe, I should be able to drop an inch or two off the factory tube, re-thread it for the Brod adapter, and re-make that rear end cap. Or possibly just open up the through hole a touch, since there won't be any guts in there. Throw in a plug for the back of the silver piece and I should be able to call it a day... What are y'all's thoughts on this? Again, realistically I'm looking for a max of 20 fpe. I'd probably tune it for around 12-15 fpe.
I started farting around w/the KRG grips to see what I can do with them... It's looking very promising!
a guy named mike built a 30 cal and 25 cal version a few years ago. he did bypass the reg but as for porting the potential is surely there
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I made some quick and sloppy paint diagrams to explain. Picture 1 shows the passage I was talking about opening up. Picture 2 shows how I modified the factory parts on my gun. On the actual reg housing, I drilled multiple holes around it as opposed to the single small hole that it has is stock form. Drilling those angled holes is tough on small drill bits, so good ones are needed for that. In your case, if you were making a new piece to replace that reg housing, you should be able to do it a bit differently(without the odd angled holes to drill) if you space the o-rings farther apart. I hope this makes sense :-[
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I made some quick and sloppy paint diagrams to explain. Picture 1 shows the passage I was talking about opening up. Picture 2 shows how I modified the factory parts on my gun. On the actual reg housing, I drilled multiple holes around it as opposed to the single small hole that it has is stock form. Drilling those angled holes is tough on small drill bits, so good ones are needed for that. In your case, if you were making a new piece to replace that reg housing, you should be able to do it a bit differently(without the odd angled holes to drill) if you space the o-rings farther apart. I hope this makes sense :-[
Once I really started looking at the receiver and associated parts, it made total sense! Lets see how this goes!
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I have a Huma reg in my PP700. So why couldn't you remove all the stock guts in the silver part something like Rallyshark did but seal the end of the silver part with the constant valve nut #24. Maybe epoxy it in place so no leaks. Then you could drill big holes in-between the O-rings. Would that work? If so you would be able to open everything up.
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I have a Huma reg in my PP700. So why couldn't you remove all the stock guts in the silver part something like Rallyshark did but seal the end of the silver part with the constant valve nut #24. Maybe epoxy it in place so no leaks. Then you could drill big holes in-between the O-rings. Would that work? If so you would be able to open everything up.
That's actually the plan. The only issue is opening up the hole that connects the reservoir and the valve. That hole is tiny and drilled at an angle. I'll have to be extremely careful when drilling that out, and not go too big.
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I know I'm not explaining it well enough but I'm talking about completely gutting the valve of #25, 26 and 27 then sealing the end of the of the sliver valve then you could drill straight down into the valve. You wouldn't have to worry about drilling on a angle.
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I know I'm not explaining it well enough but I'm talking about completely gutting the valve of #25, 26 and 27 then sealing the end of the of the sliver valve then you could drill straight down into the valve. You wouldn't have to worry about drilling on a angle.
The angled hole is in the receiver, connecting the air reservoir (via PN 26) and the valve. PN 26 isn't the valve, it's the regulator housing.
(https://i.imgur.com/M8LjSrc.jpg)
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Interesting! My part #'s are different than yours.
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Interesting! My part #'s are different than yours.
?
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Mine is in English.
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My PN 26 is 23 on yours?
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My PN 26 is 23 on yours?
They moved the numbers around on the parts diagrams when they made one for the SA, but the actual parts are mostly the same between the W and SA. The biggest difference is the grips, barrel length, and shroud. The SA has a slightly longer barrel, but a less effective shroud.
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Donny did you understand what I was describing on opening the holes on the silver valve?
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I believe I understand, but the problem is that the nut goes pretty far into the regulator housing(so it isn't hitting the trigger guard), so you would still have to drill the hole at an angle. There isn't enough room in there to drill a larger hole at an angle while still having enough space for the o-rings to seal the silver piece(reg housing) to the frame of the gun. The parts you're referring to as the valve are actually the regulator guts. Constant valve is Chinese for regulator,lol. The thought of what you're talking about is good, but there just isn't enough space on the parts to do it like that I don't think.
Chances are, you'd still have to put an o-ring/plug in there to get it to seal, even with the epoxy. Epoxy doesn't do as well at those kinds of pressures when it come to making a complete seal. I believe Tom is going to make a new silver piece(reg housing- part#29 in your diagram) anyway, so he can make it to have more flexibility with the holes being drilled. A new reg housing will make a lot of things easier, but there is still going to be that choke point in the frame of the gun where that tiny hole is.
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This is what I was talking about. 3mm hole all the way thru. 3mm oblong hole between the O-rings. Seal the end with the factory threaded nut. For added sealing installed a rubber washer inside the breech.
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For the record there's plenty of room inside once you remove everything. 8)
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For the record there's plenty of room inside once you remove everything. 8)
Yep, I knew what you were talking about. My concern was/is sealing where the where the nut is in the end. That's why I made a plug with an o-ring on mine. I didn't trust that large hole in the nut being sealed and staying sealed with the pressure behind it. It is also hard to get a good seal on a threaded surface too. I did testing on mine unregulated as well, so pressure was of even more concern then. If what you did works, then that's awesome! Optimally, making a new piece without the threaded nut/hole in the end would be best. Now, if you can address that tiny hole going to the actual valve, you will have something then ;)
I look forward to seeing how your gun does after you get it all back together for sure.
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That's my concern also with the factory threaded nut. What I did was epoxied a metal washer inside then filled the rest of the void with epoxy. Then epoxy the threads and screwed it in flush with the regulator. When I took some measurements I found there was .71mm space between the regulator and breech. I put a 1mm rubber washer in between them so when tightened it made a nice seal. Also with the regulator being flush now against the breech there no chance of the plug blowing out. I think it will work. I'm going to open up that little hole in the breech to 3mm also. Everything else has been done. Should be a hand held cannon. ;)
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I forgot to mention mine isn't unregulated know. It has a Huma in the tube.
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Little hole not so little no more. ;D
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speaking of that regulator nut, anyone know the thread size? It's not a M10. Too small for M12. Stores don't even show M11 (is there one?) on the thread testers. I'd like to get a solid grub screw as a replacement. Or is the lack of a solid replacement the reason why everyone is using rubber washers, or o-rings and a PEEK disc?
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I think it is a m10. It measure out at 9.91 but the threads are super fine. I think 0.5mm pitch. The adjusting nut on the hammer spring is the same size but different threads.
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You're right- it seems like an M10, but the threads are finer than anything I can find locally... I don't mind buying from McMaster Carr, I just need to know the pitch and such. Thanks for the help!
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threads are threads, dia doesn't matter, find the right thread pitch that matches your threaded part at Lowes and order the 10mm x X.X pitch screw from Mc Master.
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threads are threads, dia doesn't matter, find the right thread pitch that matches your threaded part at Lowes and order the 10mm x X.X pitch screw from Mc Master.
That... That makes NO sense. Of course diameter/size matters... a M6 and M10 screw can have the same thread pitch, but are obviously different sizes.
Lowes, Homer and McMaster don't have a fine enough thread anyway, even if this screw IS an M10. The finest any of them have is 1.0mm. I think Backyard Shootr may be correct in thinking this is a .5mm. The funny part is, I tried to do a search for a M10-0.5 x "..." screw and came up with nothing. The finest threads I could find was always 1.0mm. I just don't know at this point. Maybe this is just another reason to just make my own silver piece... ;D I was really considering not making a new silver piece to save some time, effort and money... But I just keep finding reasons to just make a new one... LOL
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Rallyshark, to be absolutely sure of what you're talking about, which hole are you talking about enlarging:
This one:
(https://i.imgur.com/9tG7acG.jpg)
Or this one:
(https://i.imgur.com/oP5ZX1A.jpg)
Or both? Also- is the through-bore of the silver piece large enough, or should that be enlarged as well? I don't want to go too big and have a failure...
Also I read that you (or others?) filled in some of the holes in the valve, except for the one that lines up (or closely lines up) with the rotating breech... Does that really help, or did it end up not doing much?
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threads are threads, dia doesn't matter, find the right thread pitch that matches your threaded part at Lowes and order the 10mm x X.X pitch screw from Mc Master.
Perhaps, Randy was saying to find a screw that the threads matched on, just so you would know the pitch? Either way, I haven't seen any grub type screws or plugs with a pitch that fine at my local Ace, and they have A LOT of selection.
I'm sure it would be tedious to make another silver piece, but it would give you a lot more flexibility with things. The problem with making the plug like I did, is that it has to go in there pretty far to get to the smooth non threaded part for the o-ring to seal. That means, I still had to utilize holes drilled at an angle, which IS tedious :( The good news is that the gun can easily make your power requirements with that method, so you know it can be done :)
I edited your photos to show, so hopefully it makes more sense. I did open up the through hole on both silver pieces as shown in my "modified layout" in the diagram I posted earlier. I did modify the holes in the valve as well where the rotating block fits on the valve too. I referred to it as "hatsaning" the valve, since that is a common mod with the Hatsan valves. I don't know that it is entirely necessary, but I do know 1 large hole that is lined up with the transfer port in the rotating block will flow better than 4 smaller holes not lined up. Also, it eliminates any dead space that must be pressurised before the air makes it to the pellet. Take that for what its worth. I don't think that has to be done though.
I also opened up the hole in the nut that holds the valve spring in place as far as I could with it still holding that spring. I hope all this makes sense :D
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I also had to do some sanding on the muzzle end of the valve to get the alignment I needed with one of the holes, while also having a good seal of the rotating breech block against the seal at the barrel. You may not have to do that. You could also not mod that part of the valve and leave it as is with the multiple holes, and just wait and see if you need to later. You can always do that later on if you decide to try it, or if you're just looking for a little more improvement after everything else is done.
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threads are threads, dia doesn't matter, find the right thread pitch that matches your threaded part at Lowes and order the 10mm x X.X pitch screw from Mc Master.
Perhaps, Randy was saying to find a screw that the threads matched on, just so you would know the pitch?
This is what I was trying to say, (find a screw that the threads matched) and the diameter is whatever your screw size is. Sorry for the confusion.
If you can find a fine pitch in say 5mm * .5 pitch threaded screws you could see if that matched your thread size.
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threads are threads, dia doesn't matter, find the right thread pitch that matches your threaded part at Lowes and order the 10mm x X.X pitch screw from Mc Master.
Perhaps, Randy was saying to find a screw that the threads matched on, just so you would know the pitch?
This is what I was trying to say...
All good man, that's what I figured you meant, but I wanted to be sure!
Rallyshark- excellent, I was 90% sure of what you were trying to say, I just needed to clarify on which holes to enlarge exactly. I'd hate to go to all the effort, just to do it incorrectly. Trust me, that IS my luck!
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I could find a Tap & Die for M10 .50 pitch on ebay but cannot find any .50 pitch screws, bolts or anything with that fine of threads. That's why I did what I did. You can buy the Die and make your own plug. If I had access to a lathe I would make a new reg. ;)
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I'm just going to do up a new "reg body". It seems to be the best solution. Although, the new version won't really be a reg body so much as a coupler for the reservoir...
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I look forward to seeing what you come up with Tom!
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Any news about this tank adapter?
Do you know where we can but it?
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Any news about this tank adapter?
Do you know where we can but it?
I'm going to be using some old Marauder reservoir tube, and use a tank block for a Marauder. You can get the blocks at New England Airgun. Not sure what shipping to you would be...
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I've always thought it would make for 8) fine little carbine!
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I've always thought it would make for 8) fine little carbine!
I totally got the idea from someone else- but I want to do my own take on it... I definitely want to do a folding stock, and though it'll be a touch longer, it'll have a larger plenum, and will use a HW barrel in .22. I'll keep the front shroud mount the same, but have a new shroud made, as it'll need to be longer.
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No updates- gun is still in parts. I haven't forgotten about this project. I'm currently considering a .20 swap along with a bottle conversion- I MIGHT be able to get a .20 barrel to use. Hopefully it's still available. If I don't do a bottle conversion, I'm definitely doing a longer reservoir to match the .20 barrel... Been wanting a .20 for a bit, this seems like the perfect platform in which to do it.
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I've got my hands on a .20 barrel!
I'm going to be re-using the Huma reg... which makes me wonder- Do I really need a lot of tube in front of the regulator? I obviously would need to have some space between the front of the reg and the rear of the tank block... But since the tank won't have a reg, the space in front of the reg isn't a plenum per se... So theoretically, I could go shorter on the tube length, just making sure that there is space between the reg and the rear of the conversion block... Right?
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I've got my hands on a .20 barrel!
I'm going to be re-using the Huma reg... which makes me wonder- Do I really need a lot of tube in front of the regulator? I obviously would need to have some space between the front of the reg and the rear of the tank block... But since the tank won't have a reg, the space in front of the reg isn't a plenum per se... So theoretically, I could go shorter on the tube length, just making sure that there is space between the reg and the rear of the conversion block... Right?
I think you are right ;)
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Nice! Depending on how long the barrel will end up being, I could go shorter on the tube if I need to, to put the tank where I need to for balance (and looks)...
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I've started to send feelers out for some machine work. I'll be needing to modify the barrel, have a new chamber thimble made, a new reservoir adapter made (silver piece, where the reg used to be), and cut down a Mrod tube. I'm going to have to "glue" the chamber thimble to the receiver, as I'm not going to reduce the OD of the barrel the entire length of it, just what goes into the receiver block. Will also thread the muzzle end for an LDC. I have an idea I've been wanting to try for the grip as well... I hope it works out. we'll see.
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I look forward to seeing what you come up with!
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I look forward to seeing what you come up with!
Same!! My brain is a jumbled mess of ideas right now!
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Well I'm thoroughly embarrassed! I forgot that the PP700 has a tensioned barrel, and I forgot about the #1 mod that 99% of owners do to the pistol once they disassemble it for the first time do: drill and tap for a grub screw for that anchor nut in the receiver. ::) Here I am, wracking my brain thinking about how I'm going to get that nut on there w/o machining down the entire OD of the barrel... Getting old is fun, eh? ::) ;D Anyhoo, still waiting on the barrel to come in so I can do some preliminary measurements.
Here's the plan:
Make a new "reg body", the silver part- since there's not going to be an internally adjustable reg, and it'll be the new tube mount. I really didn't like the way the factory tube mounted to the gun- so I'm going to direct thread the tube to the PP700. There may also be some mods done here for flow and such...
Add a 200 cc tank by using an Mrod tube and conversion block. This pistol will have over 3x the original air capacity. Since the tank is metal, I also feel comfortable using it as a bipod anchor point using a Dr. Bob tank bipod mount.
Convert to .20 using a HW barrel.
Make a "take down" carbine, similar to a Air Arms TDR...
(https://i.imgur.com/HJr4Cb6.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/iMWg5JC.jpg)
A take down rifle configuration would be infinitely easier to make than trying to figure out a folding stock.
Anyhoo, I've ranted enough. This project will proceed somewhat slowly, as I still have much to consider before sending anything off to be modified/made.
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NOTE: The parts diagram I'm using is for a Gen2 PP700. I'm not sure if the part numbers (PN) changed between Gen1 and Gen2. Just so we're on the same page, I'm going to refer to components via their PN's in the Gen2 diagram.
Okay- I'm going to start discussing this project with a machinist, and need some input. My main areas of concern is pretty much with connecting the new air tube. Here's the parts I'm talking about:
L to R, PN: 29, 33, 41 on my schematic:
(https://i.imgur.com/ODy4kPL.jpg)
I'm using a HuMa reg inside the air tube to regulate this build, so I'm not concerned about the factory reg guts at all. I'll only be pushing this build to about 12 fpe, maybe a little higher. No more than 15 fpe though. The main parts I'm concerned with are #'s 29 and 33. I'm pretty much just going to have #41 copied.
An idea that I had is to essentially combine #'s 29 and 33 into one big piece. Like this:
(https://i.imgur.com/qcqGjDw.jpg)
This way, I can enlarge this hole slightly and center it:
(https://i.imgur.com/c80Rczz.jpg)
I'd have the machinist drill the hole deep enough for this port to be drilled, plus a little more (about to the rear o-ring) but no deeper:
(https://i.imgur.com/Xx4rYkJ.jpg)
Thus I can eliminate the need for PN: 24 (not pictured).
Again, thoughts? I really like the idea of #29 and 33 being one solid piece. That would eliminate a few problems:
- What to do about the empty reg chamber
- No need to make a new #24 w/no hole or a spacer for the empty reg chamber
- Ensuring the seal between #29 and #24 is good
- Sealing between #'s 29 and 33 which is a known issue
- Potentially improving flow from reservoir
Seems like a win-win by making #'s 29 and 33 a single piece...
I think it's been mentioned but that port in #29, couldn't I center it in that depression and maybe make it a touch bigger? Again, this isn't going to be a powerhouse. I'm keeping it around 12-15 fpe
TIA for y'alls input!
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That is what I did to mine.
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Ah!! Backyard Shootr, thank you!! Is that just a single HUGE port?
I'm going to have to peruse the "PP700 Adventure" thread... I'm looking forward to seeing the info in the thread, not looking forward to combing through 79 pages of posts... :'( ;D
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Ah!! Backyard Shootr, thank you!! Is that just a single HUGE port?
I'm going to have to peruse the "PP700 Adventure" thread... I'm looking forward to seeing the info in the thread, not looking forward to combing through 79 pages of posts... :'( ;D
Yes its 3mm wide by 6mm long. With a 3mm hole thru the middle of the valve.
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EXCELLENT!!! Thank you much!!
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You can not eliminate part #24 you have to seal that end up or it will leak air out the back. I drilled and tapped the center of #24 for a 6mm set screw then used red Loctite to secure the 6mm set screw and #24 to #29. Then once it was dry I filled in the voids with J-B WELD. Then for extra security I made a titanium washer and rubber washer to fit inside the breech.
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You can not eliminate part #24 you have to seal that end up or it will leak air out the back. I drilled and tapped the center of #24 for a 6mm set screw then used red Loctite to secure the 6mm set screw and #24 to #29. Then once it was dry I filled in the voids with J-B WELD. Then for extra security I made a titanium washer and rubber washer to fit inside the breech.
I want to make a completely new one-piece part that is a combination of #29 and #33. If the center bore isn't drilled all the way through, there is no need for a #24...
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You can not eliminate part #24 you have to seal that end up or it will leak air out the back. I drilled and tapped the center of #24 for a 6mm set screw then used red Loctite to secure the 6mm set screw and #24 to #29. Then once it was dry I filled in the voids with J-B WELD. Then for extra security I made a titanium washer and rubber washer to fit inside the breech.
I want to make a completely new one-piece part that is a combination of #29 and #33. If the center bore isn't drilled all the way through, there is no need for a #24...
Oh! Even better.
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...Oh! Even better.
;D ;D Yessir!!
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How much clearance do y'all think would be appropriate, between the front of the reg and the rear of the bottle block? Since the tank and block is just a reservoir, the tube between the reg and tank block wouldn't really be acting as a plenum... I'm using an in-tube HuMa reg. I'm thinking .25" should suffice? I'd like to keep this as short as possible... Though, I'm not yet sure how much space I'll have to work with until at least monday- that's when the barrel is supposed to get here.
Another idea I had: If there's enough space between the barrel shroud and tank, I'll get a Clague reflex LDC- and have it go very near to the conversion block... If I have the room for it, this build will be silly quiet!! We'll see what I have room for.
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I think a one piece combo of the parts listed would be a solid solution, and I really like what Bob did with his!
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I think a one piece combo of the parts listed would be a solid solution, and I really like what Bob did with his!
Yessir, that's the exact plan I'm sticking with! Part #'s 29 and 33 (with Bob's mods done to them) combined into a single piece, with a new #41. I don't want to re-use my #41 due to a groove I made for the regulator... It didn't leak, but I didn't even have to make the groove. I was re-reading the HuMa install instructions, and they only say to thread the reservoir all the way in, then back it off a certain amount to vent. Nothing about cutting a groove in the threads. So I'd like a new one. Or maybe I'll just save the cash and re-use it since it didn't leak before... Poop, now I'm torn... ::)
Now there's a question- can spares be easily bought? I figure buying a replacement #41 would be cheaper than making it... Thoughts?
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If there was away to seal the adjustment hole that goes thru the trigger area then you would be able to cut #29 off right after the first O-ring. That would give more plenum. Not sure if it would make that much of a difference. I thought about tapping it for a set screw but not sure it wouldn't leak air. It would give you roughly a 10mm x 15.5mm of more plenum.
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Eh... Even bone stock, this pistol is capable of 15 fpe or more? I'm regulating it to 12 or so... I think the plenum, such as it is, will be okay for this build...
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Man, that barrel really IS thin... At the rear, where the o-rings are, the sleeve is .472" O.D. The barrel itself is about .392"... There MIGHT be enough room to make the barrel bore .472" all the way through... I guess I could secure the barrel with a grub screws in the dovetail- that way they can be hidden when I put on a scope...
For those that have messed with the pistol- do you think there's enough room to up the barrel bore to .472" all the way through, or will I hit an air way?
I put a Prod barrel in mine when it broke at the threads due to being so thin. It's been a long time, but I think they're 7/16 OD?
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Man, that barrel really IS thin... At the rear, where the o-rings are, the sleeve is .472" O.D. The barrel itself is about .392"... There MIGHT be enough room to make the barrel bore .472" all the way through... I guess I could secure the barrel with a grub screws in the dovetail- that way they can be hidden when I put on a scope...
For those that have messed with the pistol- do you think there's enough room to up the barrel bore to .472" all the way through, or will I hit an air way?
I put a Prod barrel in mine when it broke at the threads due to being so thin. It's been a long time, but I think they're 7/16 OD?
Where did you pull that quote from? I went through this thread and didn't see it... Also, did you re-bore your receiver to fit the prod barrel, or machine down the prod barrel? Was yours a .22 or .177?
Also, those measurements are pretty good- more like .394" for the O.D. of the barrel though... It looks like the MAX I could go is .470", but from the back, that looks awful thin... Or would it only be that thin for the length of the valve? Y'all think it would be a good idea to bore out the receiver to .470" to increase the thickness of the barrel? I would lose the tensioning feature of the pistol, and I'd have to drill/tap for grub screws and I'd have to match the breech end of the barrel to the original barrel nut, which probably wouldn't be too hard. THOUGHTS? Here's a shot from the breech end... I dunno, looks real thin...
(https://i.imgur.com/jdOhyua.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/flPySxB.jpg)
EDIT: I'd like to go larger on the on the barrel bore and have a thicker barrel inside the receiver, but it really looks like that eccentric valve bore goes practically through the entire receiver... I don't think it's a good idea to re-bore the barrel hole larger... I'll just have to run the risk of potentially breaking the rear threads. I can definitely have the new barrel machined to make the fit tighter, as the factory barrel fits kinda sloppy in the receiver. The HW barrel steel should be better than chinese steel, so that should also help. Since this is a .20 instead of a .22, there will be a touch more material between the bore and the threads. Might make for a slightly stronger rear thread section? Probably not. That's really not much of a difference.
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Bottom of reply #14. Mine was a .22, so it had like .015 between the bore and threads in the breech. I'm pretty sure I bored the breech out to fit the barrel, and I use set screws on both sides of the barrel to retain the tension system without the breech nut. I turned the barrel down at the very end for the o-ring.
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Bottom of reply #14...
How did I miss that?!
Hmmm... bore the receiver out to .4375"... That might actually work... I'd still have to figure out a filler piece for the rear though, but that shouldn't be very hard. I could probably use Delrin or something... Hmmm... SilentMatt, did you have any issues pop up from boring out the receiver for a larger barrel? Did you do any other mods? Better yet, do you have a thread of your build, or are your mods in that huge PP700 thread?
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No issues, it's been my most reliable gun. I copied Donny's valve and machined a Delrin stock for it, but that's it. Not sure I posted anything on the barrel swap, they'd be in the huge thread if I did.
I might have time to pull it apart, have to replace the fill port o-ring anyway.
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No issues, it's been my most reliable gun. I copied Donny's valve and machined a Delrin stock for it, but that's it. Not sure I posted anything on the barrel swap, they'd be in the huge thread if I did.
I might have time to pull it apart, have to replace the fill port o-ring anyway.
Well, if you haven't had any problems with it so far, I think I'll do the same. .4375" isn't quite the full OD of #7. So there will still be a lip, which is fine by me... It'll give me more surface to glue in a spacer... Nice...
Finally starting to finalize all the mods and such. One step closer to sending this stuff off to the machinist. Here's to hoping I get my barrel on Monday or Tuesday. UPS is playing games ::) >:(
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Just pulled it apart and saw that I did bore the breech. I installed two set screws on the top as well. If you use a 12mm OD x 1.5mm thick o-ring, you can just turn a small step in the end of the barrel and you don't need a nut or spacer for the rear. The bore where the factory nut went stays untouched.
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Just pulled it apart and saw that I did bore the breech. I installed two set screws on the top as well. If you use a 12mm OD x 1.5mm thick o-ring, you can just turn a small step in the end of the barrel and you don't need a nut or spacer for the rear. The bore where the factory nut went stays untouched.
Are you the same erstwhile Mr. Matt employee of JSAR, Mr. Matt?
;D
If you are, it is good to see you have not left the airgun world yet, sir ;D
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Just pulled it apart and saw that I did bore the breech. I installed two set screws on the top as well. If you use a 12mm OD x 1.5mm thick o-ring, you can just turn a small step in the end of the barrel and you don't need a nut or spacer for the rear. The bore where the factory nut went stays untouched.
Hmmmm... Interesting! Thank you!
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Hmmmm... Interesting! Thank you!
No problem!
Are you the same erstwhile Mr. Matt employee of JSAR, Mr. Matt?
;D
If you are, it is good to see you have not left the airgun world yet, sir ;D
Thanks Richard. Even though I left JSAR, I'll always at least be shooting airguns.
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No real updates... I received my used .20 barrel and promptly went to work prepping it to send to the machinist. I was able to salvage nearly 19" of barrel! With some cursory "measurements" (read: I sorta assembled the receiver, old reg housing, Huma reg, and bottle adapter/bottle), it looks like everything will clear perfectly! I'll take a pic of the "sorta assembled" gun tomorrow. Barrel will for sure need to be cleaned up due to my ham hands ::) but I'll let the machinist handle that.
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Again, no real update. Just wanted to share a pic of the overall shape/feel of the build thus far. Tomorrow I'll sit down and really do some measurements so I can FINALLY get these parts off to the machinist. I've also got some CF tube on the way for a new shroud. The new shroud will obviously need to be longer, but I'll be able to re-use the front end cap from the JSAR CF shroud kit. It'll need a new rear end cap due to the larger OD barrel.
(https://i.imgur.com/teSX2PF.jpg?1)
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Just pulled it apart and saw that I did bore the breech. I installed two set screws on the top as well. If you use a 12mm OD x 1.5mm thick o-ring, you can just turn a small step in the end of the barrel and you don't need a nut or spacer for the rear. The bore where the factory nut went stays untouched.
Just to make sure- Could/Should I just copy the step from the original nut (PN 7)?
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That's going to be sweet compact takedown gun. 5mm is a caliber I've never owned, always was infatuated with it, thanks to being exposed to Sheridan's old cylindrical pellets as a kid.
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Same. I keep reading about stories of .20 caliber accuracy and have been envious. I have an old Racine .20 'Dan that I will eventually send to Mac1, as soon as I figure out how to mount a front globe sight... I'll probably make a brass dovetail base for Tim to solder on while he does the Steroid build...
I'm still thinking on the take-down part, though I'm leaning very strongly towards that Air Arms TDR design...
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Following! ;) 8)
Knife
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Not really an update- this is the Dr. Bob tank bipod mount. It's just a strap with a bipod stud. I'm using a clone Harris on this build.
(https://i.imgur.com/sHgWlr2.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3lG5WXz.jpg)
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Okay- I've narrowed down some stuff:
4.25" OAL main tube.
14" OAL barrel
This main tube length is as short as I feel comfortable, as it gives some room to adjust the reg down the road, and gives ample clearance between the front of the reg and the end of the bottle conversion block.
A 14" barrel is darn near flush with the end of the bottle, and will be a touch longer, due to the LDC mount/tension nut. Which is fine- this way, the LDC will clear the bottle with no issue.
I'm going to finalize some other measurements today, and take some more pictures for the machinist and hopefully get these parts off for modification. I'll definitely have to get in touch to see if he's even accepting work right now, with everything going on.
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Sir,
Are you still working on this project?
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Sir,
Are you still working on this project?
I am, but I'm going down a slightly different path- Instead of the bottle, I'm just doing a slightly longer tube and it's going to be a normal carbine. The tube will use an Mrod-type fill plug and dust cap. Everything else will be the same.
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cool..looking forward to your finished build. Bigger reservoir with more plenum along with longer barrel should give a nice bump in power.
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I'm still keeping the power relatively low- 12-15 fpe... Not sure how long the reservoir is going to be yet either... But I think it'll still turn out to be a sweet shooter!
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I have NOT forgotten about this build- but I definitely put it on the back burner, as I need more than a few custom parts for it. I've made one change, and sat down and did some more measuring...
I'm still converting this PP700 to .20. But I've decided to build it as a dedicated carbine. Though the stock will be more akin to a bullpup stock. I'm taking some inspiration from the Lelya. Should be a nice, compact little gun. The Lelya is 23.5" OAL w/o an additional moderator. I'll try to stick to that OAL (w/no moderator), but seeing as how the the pistol is already 13.125" OAL already w/the LDC adapter, I'm not sure how comfortable a 10"+ stock is going to be, but we'll see.
I'm going to re-purpose a AF barrel. I'll have to create a "filler piece", to take up the breech section of the AF barrel, as the straight section of the barrel isn't long enough. It's fine, since the O.D. of the barrel needs to be reduced slightly anyway. I noticed a lot of play when I inserted the factory PP700 barrel, so I'm going to simply match the O.D. of the barrel to the bore of the receiver. That way, there's no more play. Other than that, I'm going to copy a factory barrel. This way, I can re-use my barrel shroud and LDC adapter.
I played with the idea of using a .22L CF tank, but the metal tanks are cheaper and shorter than the CF tanks. There's a weight penalty, but it's fine. I can finally use my Dr. Bob tank mounted bipod mount! ;D ;D
The .22 breech block I have (has feed tabs) will be too big for .20, but I suspect it'll be just fine.