GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: Madd Hatter on July 10, 2019, 09:39:41 PM
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Just did a 40 shot shot string.
Created Description Notes1 Notes2 Distance Coeff Weight Temp BP
7/10/2019 14:19 lowered reg pressure 2 0.023 14.3 88 °F 1018.00 inHG
# FPS FT-LBS PF
43 989 31.06 14.14
42 1005 32.08 14.37
41 1024 33.3 14.64
40 1027 33.5 14.69
39 1043 34.55 14.91
38 1057 35.48 15.12
37 1061 35.75 15.17
36 1074 36.63 15.36
35 1087 37.52 15.54
34 1082 37.18 15.47
33 1087 37.52 15.54
32 1085 37.39 15.52
31 1080 37.04 15.44
30 1062 35.82 15.19
29 1050 35.01 15.02
28 1030 33.69 14.73
27 1009 32.33 14.43
26 982 30.62 14.04
25 966 29.64 13.81
24 ERROR 3
23 925 27.17 13.23
22 914 26.53 13.07
21 899 25.67 12.86
20 862 23.6 12.33
19 854 23.16 12.21
18 858 23.38 12.27
17 839 22.36 12
16 823 21.51 11.77
15 797 20.17 11.4
14 775 19.07 11.08
13 770 18.83 11.01
12 767 18.68 10.97
11 763 18.49 10.91
10 743 17.53 10.62
9 735 17.16 10.51
8 ERROR 3
7 ERROR 3
6 708 15.92 10.12
5 709 15.96 10.14
4 703 15.7 10.05
3 709 15.96 10.14
2 704 15.74 10.07
1 697 15.43 9.97
AVG StdDev Min Max Spread TrueMV Shots/Sec Group Size
908.85 141.64 697 1087 390 917.86 0.04 0
Only 2 things have been changed, the valve which I know works and the bellevue washers. Either the spring Duy sent didn't get put in place to push the reg closed or the washers are the problem. Going to take the rifle apart and check things out plus remove the extra washer I put behind the hammer spring as once the pressure gets down to around 2000 psi or below all of the pressure just leaks out. I think the stock washers are going back in and we'll see how that works. The above string was with the reg turned 1/4 turn clockwise so the begining vel, were expected but then it hit the sweet spot around 2900 psi and holy moly thought for sure it was going to crack the sound barrier.
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I think I need a stiffer valve spring. I don't think it's putting enough pressure on the reg and I had a heck of a time getting the poppet valve to seal so I could pump it up by hand even with the hammer spring out. May have to reinstall the stock valve and call it good. I removed all of the shims except 1 and I had to leave that 1 in to keep the spring from chewing up the spring holder(?) that's made out of plastic. Yeah I could've used my compressor but wanted to make sure I could pump it up with a floor pump. I did install the original washers so we'll see in the morning what's what.
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Light valve springs can be "fun" to get sealed, especially in a reg'ed gun. With non-reg, you can hit it with a small burst of air to seal it. On reg guns, I've "cooked" some regulator O-rings doing that. ::)
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Yes it looks like the regulator is being bypassed and it’s operating like an unregulated PCP with a bell curve. Possible causes:
1. Bellevilles are configured in a manner that is too stiff, and the stack cannot compress adequately for the regulator spool to move and seal off against the valve seat.
2. Belleville stack is simply too tall and it is getting squished flat on assembly.
3. If the regulator has an adjustable seat, it may be adjusted out so far that the spool can never reach it.
4. The valve seat or the end of the piston is damaged and it can’t seal off when the two parts meet.
Since you had changed the washers, my guess is the two most likely causes are #1 or #2.
BTW, I don’t follow what you mean with “I don’t think [the valve spring] is putting enough pressure on the reg”. The reg does not need pressure applied from the valve spring, does it? Or do you mean the spring isn’t strong enough and that’s why the poppet won’t seal? The latter makes more sense but please note that even a very stiff valve spring is completely dwarfed by the air pressure pushing against the poppet. For example a very strong valve spring might be holding the poppet closed with 10lbs of force. If the poppet is 0.3” diameter, it has another 140lbs of force holding it closed when the plenum is at 2000psi. Just trying to put that into perspective…a stronger spring will not fix the poppet sealing issue. Look instead at how well the poppet and valve seat mate to each other. Burnish them together with a light abrasive. If you color the surfaces with a marker, you will quickly expose the high spots and low spots and you can follow your progress as you lap them together.
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the valve is holding air 100%, i tested this valve 3 days and nights and it was holding air absolute. the Valve stem is sooooo long that when you get to 2000psi. the hammer is of course constantly resting on the stem after each shot...it is pushing the valve open. cock it back and fill to higher pressures. it is working as it should which is pushing heavy pellets.
for low power setting. my suggestion is to lower the reg to stock setting or around 2200psi or just above the pressure which the hammer cannot open after the shot.
for higher power. set the reg to 2900psi. this valve is easier to open as is. it will be easier to open if added hammer weight.
yeah someone tell me more about the valve spring pushing the reg face back. i didn't think the valve spring was designed to do that. it is my understanding that the pressure inside the chamber between valve and reg will push the reg stem and seal it against the brass wheel end.
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yeah someone tell me more about the valve spring pushing the reg face back. i didn't think the valve spring was designed to do that.
I don't think so either. It is just holding the other side of the poppet spring.
When I've gone to a lighter valve spring, it was in conjunction with a much lighter hammer and operating at a reduced pressure, for more efficiency. In my case, was just going from a oem crosman valve spring to a lighter conical spring. Burnishing and spinning the poppet helped, but getting the initial seal was still problematic. Once it had 1kpsi, no issues.
My guess is that the lighter valve spring in this case, is trying to get more power with a longer dwell. While the oem Liberty has zero hammer pre-load, adding enough washers will produce some pre-load, which at some pressure, will keep the poppet open. If you need the pre-load, might try the oem valve spring before going back to oem valve. That is, if it is compatible with the aftermarket valve.
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the valve is holding air 100%, i tested this valve 3 days and nights and it was holding air absolute. the Valve stem is sooooo long that when you get to 2000psi. the hammer is of course constantly resting on the stem after each shot...it is pushing the valve open. cock it back and fill to higher pressures. it is working as it should which is pushing heavy pellets.
for low power setting. my suggestion is to lower the reg to stock setting or around 2200psi or just above the pressure which the hammer cannot open after the shot.
for higher power. set the reg to 2900psi. this valve is easier to open as is. it will be easier to open if added hammer weight.
yeah someone tell me more about the valve spring pushing the reg face back. i didn't think the valve spring was designed to do that. it is my understanding that the pressure inside the chamber between valve and reg will push the reg stem and seal it against the brass wheel end.
I tried it today without the shims on the hammer spring and as expected the velocity never got above 600 fps. I think the problem I'm having is the long stem. Even with all of the shims but 1 there's still pressure against the hammer spring. It did seal and hold pressure and I think it was my fault it didn't seal before. I took it back apart and turned the poppet back and forth a few times and it sealed even using the floor pump. I have the reg adj to original with the original stack patern. Disregard my previous post. When I posted it I was cooked from being in the garage for around 3 hrs and the temperature was between 95 and 100. Then it didn't help matters when hand pumping from 0 up to just under 2000 psi. Needless to say I was dripping wet when I came in.
Duy, the main reason I wanted your valve is the original is going to fail not for the increase in power. I do like the potential of more power but my main concern was reliability.
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Robert, the stem can be shortened to oem length by cutting with either diamond files or cutting wheel then grind to proper length.
the valves throat is .255 and exhaust is .217. so if you cut the stem shorter, you will still get more power compared to OEM.
since i mainly make valves for power i went for maximum dwell, but cutting them short will become "turning" process and is up to end user, unless you want me to do it.
i see a trend of low fps with high fills at 4000psi. try filling to only 3500psi and shoot to 2500psi.
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Robert, the stem can be shortened to oem length by cutting with either diamond files or cutting wheel then grind to proper length.
the valves throat is .255 and exhaust is .217. so if you cut the stem shorter, you will still get more power compared to OEM.
since i mainly make valves for power i went for maximum dwell, but cutting them short will become "turning" process and is up to end user, unless you want me to do it.
i see a trend of low fps with high fills at 4000psi. try filling to only 3500psi and shoot to 2500psi.
That's pretty much what I was figuring I'll have to do then add a bunch of shims. I won't be doing much with it for awhile as it's just to darn hot and my old body can't tolerate it anymore. When I first moved here 15 years ago I was out in the front yard digging a sprinkler trench in 110F heat and it didn't bother me but now.......
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Duy, how much longer is the stem from stock length?
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its almost double in length from back of valve to the end of stem. :o
it doesn't need to be precise. dremel and cutting wheel my friend.
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Thanks
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Robert, the stem can be shortened to oem length by cutting with either diamond files or cutting wheel then grind to proper length.
the valves throat is .255 and exhaust is .217. so if you cut the stem shorter, you will still get more power compared to OEM.
since i mainly make valves for power i went for maximum dwell, but cutting them short will become "turning" process and is up to end user, unless you want me to do it.
i see a trend of low fps with high fills at 4000psi. try filling to only 3500psi and shoot to 2500psi.
That's pretty much what I was figuring I'll have to do then add a bunch of shims. I won't be doing much with it for awhile as it's just to darn hot and my old body can't tolerate it anymore. When I first moved here 15 years ago I was out in the front yard digging a sprinkler trench in 110F heat and it didn't bother me but now.......
My general manager who is about 40 years younger than I am just about passed out today because of the heat,
I went out from one office to another and felt sick as heck.... this heat is no joke !!!!
wll
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i don't get it Robert. who would pass out during 75-77 degrees heat? only the ones that has COPD. in texas we are dealing with 87-93 degrees. and i kayak on a 90 degree the other day. i went from orange to black cow skine to e just like that. 8)
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i don't get it Robert. who would pass out during 75-77 degrees heat? only the ones that has COPD. in texas we are dealing with 87-93 degrees. and i kayak on a 90 degree the other day. i went from orange to black cow skine to e just like that. 8)
Usually not but today was very strange ... folks were freaking out at the heat and it was 105 today ... usually this time of year it is 110-115.... I came out from work and the sun/heat hit me like a freight train ... Wow !!!
wll
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i don't get it Robert. who would pass out during 75-77 degrees heat? only the ones that has COPD. in texas we are dealing with 87-93 degrees. and i kayak on a 90 degree the other day. i went from orange to black cow skine to e just like that. 8)
I wish only 75-77! lol It was still in the 90's at 10pm last night and we'll be seeing the same temps today and tomorrow plus the day after. Then we get a cold front moving in and it'll be down in the 90's. lol
i don't get it Robert. who would pass out during 75-77 degrees heat? only the ones that has COPD. in texas we are dealing with 87-93 degrees. and i kayak on a 90 degree the other day. i went from orange to black cow skine to e just like that. 8)
Usually not but today was very strange ... folks were freaking out at the heat and it was 105 today ... usually this time of year it is 110-115.... I came out from work and the sun/heat hit me like a freight train ... Wow !!!
wll
Yeah, it is strange, it feels so much hotter but really isn't. My wife who normally is the one who loves the heat has been complaining about how hot it is. Of course she's in the house most of the time and doesn't venture out until almost sunset. Just 2 or 3 years ago we were getting 112f everyday for weeks at a time and if it dropped out of the 90's at night I didn't notice.
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Robert,
Did you get your regulator to start to work , I hope so !
I gave mine a twist (1/8-1/4 turn) counter clockwise when I first got the gun, but I have an idea my regulator is still set around 1900 to 2000 psi range, but with mine I have a good hunch it is my hammer spring.
I'm getting to that *(&^ or high water tomorrow !!!
wll
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Not yet. Spent most of yesterday up on the roof trying to find a little tick that is driving my wife crazy (a very short drive!). Today I'm making a mister string for the back yard to try and cool it of a little for the dogs and me seeings how I seem to be in the dog house ALL of the time! lol
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Well, I did get to do about 4 or 5 hours work on the Liberty. I had a very hard time getting the hammer out. Not the part of taking parts off to access it but actually getting it out of the receiver. Finally got it out after much much much cussing and ..... Can't figure out what the heck is the problem. When it gets back to where the sear engages the hammer it gets real tight. I've polished the heck out of the hammer and it looks pretty but is still not sliding freely in the last 1/16 inch. I took Duy's valve out and burnished with some polishing compound. Even pulled out the bolt and polished it up to make it cock real slick. Need to get some 3/8 alu dowel so I can chuck the hammer up in my drill press and do some more polishing and maybe get the hammer to move real smooth. Have no idea why it's giving me so many problems except it's be real hot in the garage and maybe the alu receiver has expanded. Naw, that would make it looser. ???????????????? I took the reg apart again and double checked the washer stack to make sure it's stock. Cleaned out the vent hole to make sure pressure wasn't building up where the washers are. The stack is )))((()))((()))((()))(((. Each stack of 3 measured .072 to .073 thick. Checked where the reg stem seals against the nylon in the reg adj body and both are smooth. Almost to the point of putting the original valve back in and install a .100 HS shim stack and call it quits.
Would be real nice if I had a gauge on the reservoir to know what the heck the reg was doing. Without one it's just guess work.
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The trigger assembly is removed correct.. Look underneath for a hex and remove it .. I'm just guessing.. Maybe the hammer spring got hung up on the guide and messed that part of the receiver up...
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Well, the hammer is moving as smooth as a babies behind. Installed of the bolt parts and installed the trigger assy. and went to install the bolt that holds it down and wouldn't ya know it, with my shacking hands I dropped the screw!! Spent about 2 hours looking for the darn thing and, NOPE, no joy!! Did a really dumb thing before I got to this point. I decided to see if it would hold pressure so I screwed on the reg/res. and took it over to the floor pump and started to pump. Start hearing a hissing sound and cuss up a storm. Took it back over to the bench and took it apart and changed the poppet valve t the stock one, put all back together to the point where I could check for leaks and then there's the hiss again. MORE CUSSING!!!!. Take the res/reg section off and then I noticed, I never screwed the plenum in! LOL I screwed the plenum in guess what, it hold air!!! I knew at that point the 100 degree heat was getting to me so went into the house .
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Take the res/reg section off and then I noticed, I never screwed the plenum in! LOL I screwed the plenum in guess what, it hold air!!! I knew at that point the 100 degree heat was getting to me so went into the house .
At least ya leaving it all on a positive note knowing you found why it wasn't holding air.
Hats off to you for being able to work under those harsh conditions.
I don't know which would be worse......extreme heat, like your experiencing, or extreme cold.
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Take the res/reg section off and then I noticed, I never screwed the plenum in! LOL I screwed the plenum in guess what, it hold air!!! I knew at that point the 100 degree heat was getting to me so went into the house .
At least ya leaving it all on a positive note knowing you found why it wasn't holding air.
Hats off to you for being able to work under those harsh conditions.
I don't know which would be worse......extreme heat, like your experiencing, or extreme cold.
I’ll take the extreme heat over extreme cold any day. Btw extreme cold to me is like 45-50f ;D ;D.
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We get where it never gets above the 40's in the winter and I have seen it at 6 degrees with 2.5 feet of snow. Lows in the 20's were common but it's been warmer in the winter the last threw years.
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did you grind the long stem down yet?
i went from lustered green in Texas to orange grass and rocky patches in Arizona and from 115 degrees in Riverside to 81 degrees in Garden Grove. such sudden changes. i miss Texas already. LoL.
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No, not yet. I have the original valve in it right now. Need to find a replacement screw for the trigger and then do some testing then go from there. Probably be way disappointed in the stock valve after shooting yours so we'll see. Was thinking of cutting the stem down to compensate for a cap screw head in the hammer. Don't want any pressure on the stem with the screw head in there.
My first house was in Garbage Gulch back in 1976. Paid 37,000 for it and sold 9 months later for 51,900 and my wife lived with her parents there when I met her. Packed up and moved to Augsburg Germany.
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Well, HD had a replacement screw for the trigger housing so I proceeded to assemble the rifle, getting good at that now, and setup to do some short 5 shot shot strings with all of the pellet wts. I have. First was the Rabbit mags at 25.31 gr
1 753 pres. 2950
2 749
3 755
4 760
5 766 2750
Next up was the Barracuda 21.14
1 868 2750
2 868
3 866
4 857
5 872 2600
Then the Sniper mags at 17.9 gr
1 927 2600
2 935
3 934
4 936
5 933 2500
Then the old cheap stand by CPHP 14.3
1 1012 2500
2 1000
3 997
4 988
5 986 2400
So my reg problems are over and I unshot myself in the foot!! All of these strings were with the reg 1/4 CCW .100 shimmed HS and a stock tp. Next up is do a shot string with the .187 tp and the bore polished with JB paste and the tp deburred. The lead polished? to remove the sharp edges so until next time. lol
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Nice looking groups Robert!
Glad ya finally made some much need progress with regulator problem.
Well deserved day off now ?
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Nice looking groups Robert!
Glad ya finally made some much need progress with regulator problem.
Well deserved day off now ?
Hah hah ha, it is to laugh!! Now I need to do a bunch of raking as the pine needles are starting to fall and I've got a dumpster to fill. Still have branches to trim.... I have 5 acres of property with 80 plus trees on it. No grass thank goodness but still need to keep the weeds cleared so any rattle snakes are visible but most of that I do with my IH tractor.
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Good news, I had to read those strings twice!
(Christmas tree farm or nursery?)
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Nice looking groups Robert!
Glad ya finally made some much need progress with regulator problem.
Well deserved day off now ?
Hah hah ha, it is to laugh!! Now I need to do a bunch of raking as the pine needles are starting to fall and I've got a dumpster to fill. Still have branches to trim.... I have 5 acres of property with 80 plus trees on it. No grass thank goodness but still need to keep the weeds cleared so any rattle snakes are visible but most of that I do with my IH tractor.
Robert, good going, looks like she is up and running ;- )
I'm going out in the am for a Starling search before work. I tried to gently move my regulator wheel about 1/8 turn but no luck, to much pressure in the gun. I want to boost my velocity up to about 850+ using JSB 18.13 gr'rs. from the 825 ish I'm getting now. want about 29-30 fpe at the muzzle, no more ... don't want to tax the gun or the poppet valve, yet give me close to 21fpe at 45 yards and over 18 at 65 yards. ... More than enough for anything I go after ;- )
Again, glad your gun is working ;- )
wll
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Good news, I had to read those strings twice!
(Christmas tree farm or nursery?)
Neither! When we bought the place 15 years ago it had 77 trees on the property and we've added a few. At least 4 were born here as in they started growing and I transplanted them to a new area.
Just did a single shot with H&Ns 21.14 and 25.31 with the drilled TP to 3/16. I got 873 and 755. Those rabbits just don't like the freedom/Liberty barrels.
Nice looking groups Robert!
Glad ya finally made some much need progress with regulator problem.
Well deserved day off now ?
Hah hah ha, it is to laugh!! Now I need to do a bunch of raking as the pine needles are starting to fall and I've got a dumpster to fill. Still have branches to trim.... I have 5 acres of property with 80 plus trees on it. No grass thank goodness but still need to keep the weeds cleared so any rattle snakes are visible but most of that I do with my IH tractor.
Robert, good going, looks like she is up and running ;- )
I'm going out in the am for a Starling search before work. I tried to gently move my regulator wheel about 1/8 turn but no luck, to much pressure in the gun. I want to boost my velocity up to about 850+ using JSB 18.13 gr'rs. from the 825 ish I'm getting now. want about 29-30 fpe at the muzzle, no more ... don't want to tax the gun or the poppet valve, yet give me close to 21fpe at 45 yards and over 18 at 65 yards. ... More than enough for anything I go after ;- )
Again, glad your gun is working ;- )
wll
When not if the poppet starts leaking just buy one of Duys poppet valves. The poppet is made from peak which is very hard and will never wear out. The poppet is the only thing that running high pressure is going to affect IMHO. It is kind of a PITA to change the valves at first but after doing it a few times it's no more complicated then taking the rest of the rifle apart. You will not be able to adj the reg down, lower pressure and I've never been able to adj it at all with pressure in the rifle.
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The one I'm not looking forward to dealing with is the freedom aka Aspen. It's probably easy as heck but it's that unknown factor and I believe you have to disassemble the pump to get to where you remove the pressure cylinder. Need to remove the pressure cylinder to get to the poppet. It's such a vicious circle I tell ya.
Well, looking at the assy instructions it looks like I can get to the poppet just by removing the barrel and then the pin holding the air cylinder to the receiver. Of course this is after depressurizing the pre chamber which I'm so glad I bought one of the probs from Soupyy to refill it again.
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i want to take the pump out to preserve its life and put a bottle on the freedom...to save weight and increase shot count. then if i go camping i can attach the pump back. :o
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i want to take the pump out to preserve its life and put a bottle on the freedom...to save weight and increase shot count. then if i go camping i can attach the pump back. :o
So you want to make it a Liberty. lol
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Pull the stock off AGAIN! Took the hammer spring guild out and measured height, width and thickness and I am going to make a Stephen HS adj. I found some alu block that will fit one of the dimensions so it shouldn't be to hard to hack saw it down to an over sized block then I'll use my 90 degree grinder to shape it to size. Actually thinking about using a 3/8 NF thread instead of the NC thread. I have both taps so all I need to do is find the bolt I need which should be a no brainier which is perfect for me. I have a drill press and no not a drill in a vice drill press. Sorry Stephen. lol and using the very same 90 degree grinder grind the bold down for the spring guide. I really want to be able to adj for different wt pellets and slugs and not have to mess with the reg adj at all.
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yes i wanna make a liberty freedom duel purpose rifle. the freedom block already has a pressure gauge and it is readily able to adapt another plenum linear to the valve. ah...if only time isnt against me
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Yeah, it is strange, it feels so much hotter but really isn't.
Humidity perhaps? The global temperature is up about 1.1°C since pre-industrial times, and with each 1°C the air moisture goes up 7%. So we have about 8% more water in the air than say in the 1950s-ish (after which most of the heating occurred due to emissions taking off), making it seem hotter at the same temperatures.
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yes i wanna make a liberty freedom duel purpose rifle. the freedom block already has a pressure gauge and it is readily able to adapt another plenum linear to the valve. ah...if only time isnt against me
Ah, but that's the thing we can never get more of.
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Does anybody know what size the Oring on the fill probe is??? I think mine is starting to leak a little and right now I'm filling with a floor pump so don't need no leaks! ain't nobody got time for dat!!
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I love how everyone wants to change what they have, like make a freedom into a liberty, for example. And I am NO different.
I was wondering how I could purchase a Liberty, but then pump it up from my FREEDOM, heh.
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Robert, i know the .177 oring size, i dont know the .22. i ordered 4 wrong orings for the .177 but the right one i had in hand long time ago from amazon.
there is a crowd of people who opposed the idea of making a freedom into liberty. not i, i intent to further abuse the word "freedom" for my use
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Thank you Duy !! A couple questions for you.. With your hammer weight spring guide is there enough play for a spring adjuster ? Or is it maxed... What are the .177 probe size for future reference..
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Is that for the fill probe? The pellet probe is fine so far and I have spares but the fill probe has been loose ever since I got the rifle.
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Robert, i know the .177 oring size, i dont know the .22. i ordered 4 wrong orings for the .177 but the right one i had in hand long time ago from amazon.
there is a crowd of people who opposed the idea of making a freedom into liberty. not i, i intent to further abuse the word "freedom" for my use
Actually thinking about it it would be great to have a bottle fed freedom. You could reg the bottle and get even more shots than the Liberty. I'll keep my Aspen the way it is for right now. Maybe in the future when I can finally afford a Shoe box. I'll just stick with the Liberty for now. I've got a real good quality oilless air compressor right now (had it since around 1994) and if I put a water seperator on the output of the compressor I'll not have to worry about any water getting into my rifles. My vevor works fine for now but I don't want to have to rely on it for my compressed air and I'm buying a swamp cooler for the garage which means the humidity with will be a lot higher in there. Yeah, I know just take it outside and you'll plenty of dry air but it's really HOT outside. Not like back east right now and it's been great this year but still the vevor heats up really fast even with the new water pump.
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Yeah, it is strange, it feels so much hotter but really isn't.
Humidity perhaps? The global temperature is up about 1.1°C since pre-industrial times, and with each 1°C the air moisture goes up 7%. So we have about 8% more water in the air than say in the 1950s-ish (after which most of the heating occurred due to emissions taking off), making it seem hotter at the same temperatures.
1.1C is what, 2F. Think about it. How much heat is given off by our vehicles and industries that weren't there a 100 years ago. There is so much more asphalt that absorbs the sun's heat then radiators it at night when it should be cooling where before the ground cover such as grasses and TREES use to absorb a lot of that energy to grow that have been stripped away for cities and neighborhoods. I ride a street bike and I can tell ya, at night when I go from the city which isn't a big city out into the countryside where I live the temps drop a lot.
Oh, and forgot to say the humidity is single dig to low teens.
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Here's a picture of my lady Liberty in all her glory!
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Thank you Duy !! A couple questions for you.. With your hammer weight spring guide is there enough play for a spring adjuster ? Or is it maxed... What are the .177 probe size for future reference..
with the weight, it maxed out the adjustability, remove it. btw, your hammer is polished because it was binding in there. lower the reg down if you dont have the weight.
oring is 1.5mm thick by 1.85mm ID for .177
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Is that for the fill probe? The pellet probe is fine so far and I have spares but the fill probe has been loose ever since I got the rifle.
I found 2 fill probe Orings believe it or not in a Oring kit from Harbor Freight.The probe fits much better now and I doubt it will leak though I haven't tried it yet as I just pumped the Lib up to 3600 psi and wow am I proud of myself. lol
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Is that for the fill probe? The pellet probe is fine so far and I have spares but the fill probe has been loose ever since I got the rifle.
I found 2 fill probe Orings believe it or not in a Oring kit from Harbor Freight.The probe fits much better now and I doubt it will leak though I haven't tried it yet as I just pumped the Lib up to 3600 psi and wow am I proud of myself. lol
Happy Days Are Here Again!
Many Thanks for some news that takes the anxiety of probe oring failure.
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I do know the probe fits much tighter than with the original Orings it's just too hot to go out and try pumping more. Still 96 here.
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Well I can say without a doubt that the new Orings work much better. I tried pumping up the Liberte with the hand pump and was able to get it up to between 3800 and 3900 psi. That's the most I ever been able to pump by hand.
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Well I screwed up!! I lost the hammer spring for my Liberty. I put it in my pocket to try and match it up at the hardware store and I think when I stooped at the PO to pickup the mail when I pulled my keys out of my pocket it must have snagged on the key ring and whoop that be it! Guess I'm have to go to Home depot or lowes and purus their spring supply.
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Well I screwed up!! I lost the hammer spring for my Liberty. I put it in my pocket to try and match it up at the hardware store and I think when I stooped at the PO to pickup the mail when I pulled my keys out of my pocket it must have snagged on the key ring and whoop that be it! Guess I'm have to go to Home depot or lowes and purus their spring supply.
Whew! Got lucky and found it!! WO HOO!!! Of course I already ordered a replacement from McMaster Carr. lol Never left the proporty.
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Robert......stop the press and go buy a lottery ticket for being able to find the spring!
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Ya never know when a ziplock with a magnet in it will be yer FRIEND!! (glad you found it)
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Get a magnetic sign like for the side of a car.. Cover with cloth and no missing stuff.. (Usually )
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Robert......stop the press and go buy a lottery ticket for being able to find the spring!
LOL!!!!
Ya never know when a ziplock with a magnet in it will be yer FRIEND!! (glad you found it)
Get a magnetic sign like for the side of a car.. Cover with cloth and no missing stuff.. (Usually )
I have one of those magnetic bowel things that HF sells. This was because it was in my pocket and when I pulled the keys out to unlock the side gate it pulled it out. Ya, I do feel very lucky to find it actually. But one thing it did do for me is I think I've found the spring I need to make this rifle work with some weight in the hammer. Will know when ever it gets here from McMaster Carr.
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Well I screwed up!! I lost the hammer spring for my Liberty. I put it in my pocket to try and match it up at the hardware store and I think when I stooped at the PO to pickup the mail when I pulled my keys out of my pocket it must have snagged on the key ring and whoop that be it! Guess I'm have to go to Home depot or lowes and purus their spring supply.
Whew! Got lucky and found it!! WO HOO!!! Of course I already ordered a replacement from McMaster Carr. lol Never left the proporty.
Robert, You are INCREDIBLY FORTUNATE to find that spring as I have been through McMaster-Carr's catalog and a spring like that I can't find .... not even close !!! You said you ordered a replacement ? PLEASE give me the item # ........ I'll order a few of them ;- )
Thanks Robert,
wll
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They are 1 half of an inch shorter than the original and a little stronger than stock. I'll look and post the part number here.
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This is the closest spring I have found if it will fit ?
https://www.mcmaster.com/9620k11 (https://www.mcmaster.com/9620k11)
wll
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No, that one is to large of a diameter. Here's the one I ordered https://www.mcmaster.com/9657K119 (https://www.mcmaster.com/9657K119) as you can see it's a little shorter than the stock spring but is stronger as far as I can tell. I wanted the aprox .5 inch shorter to make up for the weight which is .5 thick to get the same stack height. The spring being stronger (?) should eliminate the need for shims but who knows it's a c**p shoot.
If you want to hold off if they work I'll send you a couple.
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No, that one is to large of a diameter. Here's the one I ordered https://www.mcmaster.com/9657K119 (https://www.mcmaster.com/9657K119) as you can see it's a little shorter than the stock spring but is stronger as far as I can tell. I wanted the aprox .5 inch shorter to make up for the weight which is .5 thick to get the same stack height. The spring being stronger (?) should eliminate the need for shims but who knows it's a c**p shoot.
If you want to hold off if they work I'll send you a couple.
Thanks Robert, you may be on to something, I'll be watching to see how this spring does and how it feels on cocking ;- )
wll
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I'm thinking HS adj with the spring captured to the adj so less chance of hammer bounce. Maybe I got that wrong but don't think it will hurt either.
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Well, I received the new hammer springs and instead of being .375 they're .379. Not huge difference but .375 is tight as in put a little silicone oil on something .375 and it becomes a air spring. I have however found that by screwing it in the hammer CCW it will go in and bottom like the original would. After I get my receiver back from Duy (need to make sure it goes out today) I'm going to try putting the allen head bolt in the hammer and then screw the spring down into it and try that. Backwards to what I wanted to do to begin with I know but..... One advantage is the hammer weight will be a lot heavier than with just the bolt head in it. Will see if the spring will stay put and if being captured on the outside of the spring will affect it as springs grow in dia. when compressed. I love to try and figure these things out as it's exercising my brain and getting it working more like it did when I was working. I've been retarded er retired for around 5 years and can't believe how much my thinking processes have degraded.
Thinking about it a little more I could just ream out the hammer the additional .005 which would only remove about .0025" from the wall thickness.
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i like the latter idea. ream it out so the spring will bind free. add a hammer weight will wake that rifle up. :o
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Yeah, I was just thinking about that. I think I'll try and use a 1/4 dowel with a strip of 180 sand paper and see what i can do. Get it out to size then polish the bore with some 1200 and 2000 grit paper. I really think using it the other way will coil bind due to the spring not compressing into the hammer. I looked into getting a reamer in .382 but it's darn near $50 and for one or two rifles that to much. Would have been a lot easier if McMaster Carr would've actually supplied what they said it was.
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try 0.380 reamers, the polish to .382 if needed. amazon has 0.380 for $17. try 9.6mm reamers too. cheaper than $50
or just polish it to dimensions
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Duy, I looked and looked but could never find the reamer you're talking about.
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Duy, I looked and looked but could never find the reamer you're talking about.
this is what i found
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I can't believe how hard it was to find it even knowing that they had it!!! One search came up with tee shirts!! another came up with plastic dodads that you would find at a dollar store!
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I can't believe how hard it was to find it even knowing that they had it!!! One search came up with tee shirts!! another came up with plastic dodads that you would find at a dollar store!
you sure you typed in ".380 reamer" ?
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So many times I lost count. It kept coming up with foo foo items. I did find it and ordered it.
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Well,reamer showed up today so I reamed out the hammer to .380 and then sanded out the last half of a thou. Spring fits good and as a side benefit was able to finish polishing the outside the hammer with some 2000 grit sandpaper. She's all ready to go back in the gun with the hammer weight I'm going to use which came in at 78 grams but will probably end up lighter. Might see if I can find another bolt that will fit it and keep the weight at 78 - 80 grams.
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you mean 78 grains? i am using 80 grains currently and i wanted to go heavier. i think the max it will house is probably 110 grains give or take
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Can't remember if it was measuring grams or grains.
Just checked and it is 78.6 grains
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Can't remember if it was measuring grams or grains.
Just checked and it is 78.6 grains
I'm very interested to know how the new springs work out, would be interesting if they have more poop than the originals. Are you using shims on the back end to make up for the extra 1/4 shortness or are you adding shims in the front end adding more length to the front weight you already installed, that might add more effective weight ?
wll
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I'm going to use a allen head bolt inside the hammer that will take up a lot of the space and I believe that the new spring is stiffer. There is a little bit of space left but either I'm going to make a HS adjuster or Duy will.
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I'm going to use a allen head bolt inside the hammer that will take up a lot of the space and I believe that the new spring is stiffer. There is a little bit of space left but either I'm going to make a HS adjuster or Duy will.
I can hardly wait for the results.
wll
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Me either but I'm not going to hurry Duy as he's very busy plus I ask him if he could make me a hs adj as I tried yesterday and while I made the block somewhat ok when I went to drill it in my drill press it ended up off center. If Duy is to busy I'll give it a try again.
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Well, I just finished making a hammer weight out of either a 3/8 carbide drill bit or a 3/8 HSS drill bit. With the weight of the short jobber drill bit I'm thinking carbide. Hack saw wouldn't even scratch it. I got the length is with only one washer it will end up being the same stack height as the original spring. With the HS adj I'm getting from Duy I should be able to tune my bad boy Liberty right in. The weight came in at 82.5 grains which I believe is the same weight Duy is using. I chucked the drill bit in my drill press up side down and used a dremel cut off wheel. Well actually, about 5 or 6 cut off wheels. That thing was hard, it wore those disks right down.
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a stainless bolt from hardware store would have been easier?
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And your point is?????? lol I also could've used the spend 9mm bullet I've got sitting here and it would be 110 gr. Hum, :D I may just do that! The cylindrical part of the slug is almost the same length as the weight I made which would be and the pointed part of the slug would fit inside of the HS.
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LOL my point is exactly what you are doing with the 9mm bullet. utilization of the shortest route to your goal? and i k ow you dont like the 100 degree heat. was it lower this time when you grind that hammer weight? lol
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It was in the high 80's to very low 90's. My wife found it when she was out with my son and grand daughter. I found that with that in the hammer the over all length is exactly the same as with the stock spring and no weight.
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Well, I thought the stack height was the same as stock but had to take a .100 off of the slug. Ended up with 505 grains total hammer weight without the spring.
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I did a check of what the regulator is doing now after increasing the vent hole size and polishing the reg bore. First shot after sitting all night at 3200 psi with jsb 18 g was 957. Second shot was 946. Don't think a 11 fps change is very much at all. Still need to do a shot string to see what the rest of a string looks like.
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Here's a 10 shot string I did. It ended up being a 14 fps spread.
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Just did some slug testing with my Liberty using Stephen's 26 gr slugs and some 26 gr Griffin slugs. Reg turned up 1/4 turn CCW hammer spring adj adj as high as it would go before coil bind.
Created Description Notes1 Notes2 Distance Coeff Weight Temp BP Altitude
11/23/2019 17:40 26 grain AVS slugs 4000 3600 1 1 26.1 N/A N/A 3000
# FPS FT-LBS PF
5 947 51.98 24.72
4 950 52.31 24.8
3 953 52.64 24.87
2 954 52.75 24.9
1 959 53.31 25.03
AVG StdDev Min Max Spread TrueMV Shots/Sec Group Size
952.6 4.51 947 959 12 952.71 0.08 0
Created Description Notes1 Notes2 Distance Coeff Weight Temp BP Altitude
11/23/2019 17:34 26 grain Griffin slugs 3800 3150 1 1 26 54 °F 1019.91 inHG 3000
# FPS FT-LBS PF
5 925 49.41 24.05
4 930 49.94 24.18
3 930 49.94 24.18
2 940 51.02 24.44
1 938 50.8 24.39
AVG StdDev Min Max Spread TrueMV Shots/Sec Group Size
932.6 6.23 925 940 15 932.71 0.07 0
I don't think the reg is doing anything.
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Why do you think that?
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Vel. keeps dropping.
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Start pressure? I understand not wasting slugs. But 10 shots would tell more of a story. It may have leveled off. If start pressure was 3500psi or so... I dont think you could have cracked the valve hard enough to get those speeds with slugs
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Just did some slug testing with my Liberty using Stephen's 26 gr slugs and some 26 gr Griffin slugs. Reg turned up 1/4 turn CCW hammer spring adj adj as high as it would go before coil bind.
Created Description Notes1 Notes2 Distance Coeff Weight Temp BP Altitude
11/23/2019 17:40 26 grain AVS slugs 4000 3600 1 1 26.1 N/A N/A 3000
# FPS FT-LBS PF
5 947 51.98 24.72
4 950 52.31 24.8
3 953 52.64 24.87
2 954 52.75 24.9
1 959 53.31 25.03
AVG StdDev Min Max Spread TrueMV Shots/Sec Group Size
952.6 4.51 947 959 12 952.71 0.08 0
Created Description Notes1 Notes2 Distance Coeff Weight Temp BP Altitude
11/23/2019 17:34 26 grain Griffin slugs 3800 3150 1 1 26 54 °F 1019.91 inHG 3000
# FPS FT-LBS PF
5 925 49.41 24.05
4 930 49.94 24.18
3 930 49.94 24.18
2 940 51.02 24.44
1 938 50.8 24.39
AVG StdDev Min Max Spread TrueMV Shots/Sec Group Size
932.6 6.23 925 940 15 932.71 0.07 0
I don't think the reg is doing anything.
The % of variation is minuscule in both cases. Based on the StdDev/AVG
0.0047344110854503 for the top shot string
and
0.0066802487668883 for the bottom.
Both right around 1/2 of 1 percent variation! Looks pretty good to me!
Of course, I was never really good at math...
If based on the spread divided by the min/max velocity, you still come out looking REALLY good!
For the top it is from 0.0125130344108446 to 0.0126715945089757 or between 1.25% and 1.27% variation.
For the bottom it is from 0.0159574468085106 to 0.0162162162162162 or between 1.60% and 1.62% variation.
Again... looks REALLY good to me.
Shoot a really long string and see how those percentages hold up.
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Start pressure? I understand not wasting slugs. But 10 shots would tell more of a story. It may have leveled off. If start pressure was 3500psi or so... I dont think you could have cracked the valve hard enough to get those speeds with slugs
I used to think that my .177 Freedom's sweet spot started at 3000 to 3100. I retested recently and found it to be closer to 2800/2700. Above that, the fps was closer to 700fps on low power and from 2800/2700 down to about ~2200/2100 it was pretty consistent at ~730fps.
Still, that is over 4% variation. I like to have it as much under under 5% as I can manage!
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I started at 4000 psi and ended at 3600 psi with the avs slugs which is 1.6 efficiency. That part I like. I used the stock but ported by me valve with Duy's Delrin poppet.
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Its working then. Just not optimal. No way you could have cracked the valve at 4000 if the reg wasn't working.
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I have a HS adj and it is adj to the max before coil bind. I'm going to do a shot string using JSB 18.13 gr pellets because I have 2000 of them just to see.
Created Description Notes1 Notes2 Distance Coeff Weight Temp BP Altitude
11/24/2019 11:10 18 jsb shoot down to 2000 psi start 3600 psi end 2500. 1/4 turn ccw hs adj maxed 1 1 18.13 56 °F 1020.91 inHG 3000
# FPS FT-LBS PF
20 957 36.88 17.35
19 968 37.73 17.55
18 972 38.04 17.62
17 978 38.51 17.73
16 985 39.06 17.86
15 996 39.94 18.06
14 997 40.02 18.08
13 1001 40.34 18.15
12 1013 41.32 18.37
11 1014 41.4 18.38
10 1016 41.56 18.42
9 1025 42.3 18.58
8 1030 42.72 18.67
7 1035 43.13 18.76
6 1044 43.88 18.93
5 1050 44.39 19.04
4 1052 44.56 19.07
3 1056 44.9 19.15
2 1067 45.84 19.34
1 1065 45.67 19.31
AVG StdDev Min Max Spread TrueMV Shots/Sec Group Size
1016.05 33.72 957 1067 110 1016.17 0.08 0
Turned reg down to 1/8 turn ccw started at 4000psi using griffin slugs
Created Description Notes1 Notes2 Distance Coeff Weight Temp BP Altitude
11/24/2019 11:25 26 griffin slugs start 4000 psi 3550 psi end 1 1 26 57 °F 1020.91 inHG 3000
# FPS FT-LBS PF
9 818 38.64 21.27
8 817 38.54 21.24
7 817 38.54 21.24
6 817 38.54 21.24
5 819 38.73 21.29
4 820 38.83 21.32
3 820 38.83 21.32
2 821 38.92 21.35
1 835 40.26 21.71
AVG StdDev Min Max Spread TrueMV Shots/Sec Group Size
820.44 5.66 817 835 18 820.54 0.08 0
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ya need a gauge installed in the plenum to tell what the reg is doing
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I know I do but haven't heard anything about the new plenums being available. That's what I'm waiting for.
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Did a little shooting with the Liberty. 40 yards off of a bipod prone on the garage floor. Obviously it's not zeroed but couldn't shoot any longer as my neck hurt real bad. This was a 10 shot string with maybe 2 mph wind gusts from the east. I was shooting at the center target.
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I know I do but haven't heard anything about the new plenums being available. That's what I'm waiting for.
Who is your supplier for the new plenums?
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I thought Billy Rohm was going to have them available?
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billy is probably too busy with building his shop. I am too busy with kids on my days off