GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: Dbez1 on June 17, 2019, 02:42:40 PM
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A recent thread here on GTA discussed the QC of a very high end PCP manufacturer and there were members on each side of the fence. Since I have had no ponies in that game, I couldn’t contribute anything to the discussion but it did make me think about QC in the industry. My question to you is IN YOUR EXPERIENCE, what airguns are the most trouble free and reliable OUT OF THE BOX. This should not include guns that you have modified. This information should be especially helpful to those considering joining the sport.
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I believe what you are looking for is called a Unicorn! LOL! I don't think one actually exists! There are lots of high end air guns out there and for as many as there are, you can also find folks who have some sort of complaint about them. I only own two of what I consider high ends air guns, and there are probably plenty of folks who will argue they are middle of the road air guns, because there certainly are some with price tags 2X to 3X more than what I paid. But, on my budget, they are high end to me... Of the 2, Evanix Air Speed and FX Dreamline, the FX has been the most trouble free air gun I own, and the Evanix has been the most troublesome air gun I own! I know others have had some problems with their FX air rifles, and others have had really good luck with their Evanix air rifles. But for me, I would definitely recommend the FX Dreamline just based on my own experience. I'm sure there are other air guns far superior, but I may never know because they are just too far out of reach for me!
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I'm surprised not to see more votes for the Benjamin Marauder. My Gen II is going past 3 years now and the only issue I've had was replacing the fill probe. If memory serves me correctly that happened within the 1 year warranty time so they sent me one for free.
Holds on to the air after a fill for months on end.
It sill like the same H&N 21 grain pellet with unwavering accuracy at 45 yards. The Hawk Air Max scope rarely needs adjusting.
I seriously contemplated going with the JSAR lighter tube and a few other mods but talked myself out of it for fear of breaking the good luck spell it has.
No other PCP, Chief, DISCO or Liberty has been this trouble free. The Liberty is running a close second, then DISCO and the Chief is the worse.
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Taipans are rock solid guns plain and simple. The only issues you'll ever find on them are cocking in the rear and not "pretty".
The Mrod is also a pretty solid platform. Alittle adjustments here and there for tuning and such and there usually good to go for a very long time.
My WAR guns were also bulletproof.
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I pulled my $220 GAMO Urban out of the box, installed a CDT trigger (because I had one on hand) and have shot it issue free ever since.
Fill, load mags, shoot and repeat.
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I can be mistaken on the subject, but I think the specialized vendor are the way to go talking about trouble free..
They have more RESTRICTED and vigorous QC than the generally off the shelf product..
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The more whistle and bells, the more that can go wrong.
From experience, the Marauders are rock solid. When they do break it's more so the O-rings drying out, which takes years and there are only five on the HPA side. The Marauder O-rings are super cheap and simple to replace. It would be hard to beat the Marauders on reliability and ease of repairs.
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ALL will suffer o-ring fatigue and failures .... nature of being subjected to VERY high pressures.
That said, Greater the number of o-rings in the pneumatic system, GREATER is the chance for failure between services.
Not going to get into the naming game ... just leaving a tidbit of factual reality.
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ALL will suffer o-ring fatigue and failures .... nature of being subjected to VERY high pressures.
That said, fewer the o-rings in the pneumatic system, better are the chances of losing one in between routine reseals.
Not going to get into the naming game ... just leaving a tidbit of factual reality.
Agreed, probably why so many of yesteryear's pumpers are still in service.
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well 5 years in and zero probs with my oldest... a .25 Mrod... have two no probs with the other... .177 Buc is next oldest about 4 years old now zero probs... same with new .22 Buc and Gamo Urban...
Just got a .22 AT long eats fill probe o-rings... The .22 Max well it was a Wally World clearance( prob a return)... it needed work and started leaking about 5 months in...
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Definitely not a matter of 'you get what you pay for'. This old adage has absolutely been shot down in the air gun world.
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Don't have any but from what I hear sounds like Eastern European guns are built like tanks.
I have a bunch of EVANIX Rainstorms some going back to 2012, used them hard but had Zero problems with that platform, not the most sophisticated airgun out there but definitely rugged and durable, great for a mid 600 bucks price range indeed.
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I'm going to throw out the Daystate Regal XL. This rifle appears to have a very high build quality, coupled with simplicity (even I can work on it :P ). I haven't had mine that long, but I haven't had any issues with it so far. It's maintained the POI and has always worked when called upon.
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ALL will suffer o-ring fatigue and failures .... nature of being subjected to VERY high pressures.
That said, fewer the o-rings in the pneumatic system, better are the chances of losing one in between routine reseals.
Not going to get into the naming game ... just leaving a tidbit of factual reality.
Agreed, probably why so many of yesteryear's pumpers are still in service.
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I have my Air Arms .177 S510 about 5 years and it was a Pyramyd Air refurbished PCP I also have an Evanix RS II in .22 neither has had any issues with either accuracy, performance or leaks. My BSA MK II was also trouble free for the 2 1/2 years that I owned it. I think that most PCP AG's manufactured today are relatively trouble free but there are always going to be the stinkers that ship no matter the price
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I pulled my $220 GAMO Urban out of the box, installed a CDT trigger (because I had one on hand) and have shot it issue free ever since.
Fill, load mags, shoot and repeat.
Bill does your urban have the barrel band still on as original or have you loosened or removed it. That seems to be the only complaint i see often.
mine's still on
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I pulled my $220 GAMO Urban out of the box, installed a CDT trigger (because I had one on hand) and have shot it issue free ever since.
Fill, load mags, shoot and repeat.
Bill does your urban have the barrel band still on as original or have you loosened or removed it. That seems to be the only complaint i see often.
mine's still on
Yessir.... completely stock aside from the trigger. I've never even touched the power adjustment.
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I pulled my $220 GAMO Urban out of the box, installed a CDT trigger (because I had one on hand) and have shot it issue free ever since.
Fill, load mags, shoot and repeat.
Bill does your urban have the barrel band still on as original or have you loosened or removed it. That seems to be the only complaint i see often.
mine's still on
Yessir.... completely stock aside from the trigger. I've never even touched the power adjustment.
Awesome. Shot mine a little today when the neighbors weren't around lol.Since it's favorite to this point was JSB 15.89's I tried the Hades and they grouped very nicely at 25 yards. I have to try further when I'm not in the backyard. Took out an aspirin at 25 on the first shot sfter sighting in those pellets too so it's shooting well enough for head shots with those hades pellets.
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If you don't want to buy/sell airgun after airgun... and just want ONE to last a while... It's hard to beat a proven, reliable and COMMON platform that has already been scienced out, with all sorts of replacement/repair parts available. The gun that fits this mold the best is arguably the Benjamin Marauder. Parts are cheap, plentiful... and since the guns are so common, there's a very good chance there will be repair support for them for YEARS to come.
If you buy some foreign specialty gun... good luck. Repair and replacement parts could be a challenge in coming years.
For hunting, it's really hard to beat a .25 Marauder. A completely stock gun with a tiny bit of tuning can shoot 3 mags (24 shots) at 800 fps... which is plenty for about any small game out to around 50 yards.
As for PCP's in general... There are a lot of parts in one. If you're used to Powder Burners... especially a bolt action... these are a whole nother level! A lot more finicky, as there's a lot more going on inside.
Good Luck!
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I'm going to throw out the Daystate Regal XL. This rifle appears to have a very high build quality, coupled with simplicity (even I can work on it :P ). I haven't had mine that long, but I haven't had any issues with it so far. It's maintained the POI and has always worked when called upon.
Another vote for the Huntsman. 4 years and just sets in the corner and needle never moves on the air gage. Always hits where you aim after sitting for months.
My wildcat seemed a little on the dainty side for me. Just didn't seem as sturdy as built. But, i will pick me up a Royal one day. The ones ive handled seemed sturdy and well built.
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Taipans are rock solid guns plain and simple. The only issues you'll ever find on them are cocking in the rear and not "pretty".
i agree with this ^^^... my son has had a .25 long for about 2 years and i've had a .22 standard for a little over a year. zero problems with reliability, function and accuracy. the taipan guns are just common sense ;D
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I just feel lucky any PCP I paid $300 or more for has been flawless, with the exception of the bull boss that I caused issues with leaks while modding, and 2 Maximus Hunters that had the new gun release o ring leaks, but they were under $200. :-\
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I’ll third on the Daystate HRXL .22 that I’ve had almost 3 years now and have done nothing but shoot it 3-5 days a week, built like a vault, laser accurate, easy to get on point, and other worldly trigger.
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The most problem-free air gun is a buddies airgun, they give to you full of pellets and full tank of air and if it has problems, low air, out of pellets, etc. Just give it back to your buddy to fix it up.
I'm just joking of course, well kinda. Good luck on your search for the perfect, problem-free airgun.
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...I'm just joking of course, well kinda. Good luck on your search for the perfect, problem-free airgun.
We all know there is no such thing as a perfect airgun. We are just trying to get a feel for the ones that have the least problems.
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Given enough time, most everyone's guns will be listed and will have your head spinning, if not already. That's just the nature of such a question on a forum They all have O-rings that will one day fail, at least on the HPA side. ;)
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the most problem free pcp has to be the airforce Talon ss, or similar rifle.
I use as a daily pest control rifle a Gunpower stealth, made in 1998.
It only recently developed a leak in the tank valve, I took it apart, cleaned everything and put it back together again and its still holding air again.
There is a reason it is called a "utility airgun"
And why many government agencies use them for pest control for their simplicity, reliability, and accuracy.
the valve is dead simple, and holds air for decades.
its a straight through design.
the air tank is removeable in the non spinlock models so it fits in a small case.
The interchangeable barrel system is dead simple, and easy to change calibers.
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My opinion, most trouble free PCP is any my wife doesn’t know about. Keeps me trouble free, anyway.
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...I'm just joking of course, well kinda. Good luck on your search for the perfect, problem-free airgun.
We all know there is no such thing as a perfect airgun. We are just trying to get a feel for the ones that have the least problems.
By the guns in your signature your a big step above me.. Nice guns by the way and great shooters.
Nowadays with all of the videos of how to disassemble and rebuild your airguns, it takes a lot out of the questioning how to break down an airgun and doing it safely, fixing the gun when it has a problem. Plus you have the support of a lot of good folks here on GTA that will answer questions and give you the best advise.
I think the best gun is the one that fits your needs, your style of shooting, budget, whether your a hunting or paper shooter and being able to tune, service and repair it if needed.
Now the question is what are you looking for in an airgun, bullpup, carbine/rifle, regged, unregged, high shot count, full of power with low shot count and whats your budget?
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Another happy Urban user.
Had it for 2 trouble free years,close to 5k pelets with only mod being the longer trigger screw.
Haven't had to re adjust the scope since installed,it always hits where i aim.
Had the Gauntlet about a year and a half now,no problems with it so far.
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I have a career 707 had to reseal it after 20 years.
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Another Urban vote here!
Stock out the box the only adjustment was the hammer spring.
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5 years with my Gen 1 .177 Marauder have been pretty much trouble free. It is reliable, accurate and the only problem I have had in the time I have owned it is a pressure guage leak that occurred about 3 years ago. About a year ago, I put it up and had no more time for shooting. It sat on the wall for a year with 2800PSI in the tube. I took it out for a shooting session a couple of days ago. Still had 2800PSI in there and was shooting exactly they way I left it.
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I own 2 Daystates, 3 Fx and one Brocock. The only rifles I have not had problems with are the FX, all 3 have been totally trouble free since day one.
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The most trouble free gun I have owned has been my Gen1 Marauder, other than making hard mounts for the shroud to lock it in with the barrel and barrel band I have done nothing to it and have owned it now for about 7 years. My other guns have had to have various seals and other parts replaced but the Marauder has not let me down yet, no leaks, no malfunctions, always been reliable and has always held air. Other guns may be as reliable but this gun is the only one I have retained for more than 5 years. Sometimes simple designs work better and are more reliable than expensive intricate designs. The Marauder gets my vote, Neil.
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Takes time to figure out what's the most trouble free...so I kind of look on PCP'sthat have been in service for less than a few years (lets say 3-4) with doubts.
Usually, if there is amechanical issue, the big factories fix it (remember the change in M-Rod triggers early on in production? ...it's not the only rifle that used the first customers as test-dummies).
Some things just take time to figure out are problem areas.Took awhile to figure out that BAM50.51'swould eat their valves (besides being tuned tomega air use), that SPA/Diana Stormriders would break bot handles, CrosmanDiscos/Maxi/P-Rods/1701/1720's are prone to leaks at the gauge port, (and a few more I could name with specific problems that need to be checked).
Airgun makers are not o-ring makers, they out sourse those needs (and others)....and every o-ring is sooner or later going to give up. Might be the airgun maker's fault if he skimped on the specifications...might be the o-ring supplier's fault for cheating on the specifications..,..but usually it's just that every o-ring will eventally just die.
In another way, "trouble free" could mean it shoots about as advertized out-the-box.
A gray area....does it really count if you turn the supplied adjusting screws to get it's trigger in line (no mods) or it's striker spring tesnion?...seems like they put the screws in to be used, so just twiddling the screws shouldn't count as a "mod"...but it does count agains "out the box".
Which brings up a whole bunch of really good riflesthat have that last fault (folks tend to adjust the supplied screws..esp. trigger screws).
IF you count litterally not touched/ no screws adjusted/ never seen a tool or adjustment made...I got "nuthing".
Haver some that COULD have made it,and been in service for several years...but I twiddles a trigger adjustment or somehting else minor...so I don't count it as "out the box"...but are nearly so.
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Daystate Huntsman Regal XL .22 - Laser accurate, holds air forever, superb trigger and a joy to shoot. Zero problems or tinkering out of the box perfection going on three years. No safe queen and has put up with my casual negligence. I am surprised I haven't broken it yet.
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Airgun makers are not o-ring makers, they out sourse those needs (and others)....and every o-ring is sooner or later going to give up. Might be the airgun maker's fault if he skimped on the specifications...might be the o-ring supplier's fault for cheating on the specifications..,..but usually it's just that every o-ring will eventally just die.
Funny you should mention this. I just completed changing out every O-ring on my Hatsan Carnivore .35.
The majority of them had bad nicks from assembly, burrs on parts where the rings sat or had to be passed over to get to where they sat. Gun is 3 years old and I’m surprised it went that long without major leaking. Other fixes where needed as well... deburr/polish hammer (would jam up on occasion), grease everything (whatever grease, if you can call it that, Hatsan uses serves the one purpose of catching metal shavings).
And for the record, the Hatsan Carnivore should be nowhere near this list. I do have 2 AT-44s that have exceeded my expectations and have been relatively problem free.
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Out the box, other than the trigger, have had no reason to change the Urban....part of that might be expectations/use relatedas it pretty well came out the box shooting theway I expected it to. On the other hand, haven't had it for very long.
Really not going to let price by the guide here...pleanty of expensive rifles have had problems out the box. I'd say they aremore likely to be trouble free, but haven't found it to be a tremendus difference.
Oldest PCP in service (AA s200) has had me go in in fix something 3 times. Twice it was the old style nipple (the one that looks like an industrail air hose connection) and once becasue a screw broke. It also came providing the perfomance expected,and was quite shootable out the box.
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Up to now in this very unscientific thread, it seems like the Marauder and the Urban are both pretty strong in reliability out of the box. The Marauder has been around a very long time and the Urban has a few years under it’s belt. This is a pretty good start information wise for novices. For those who adhere to the adage “buy once, cry once” I’ll throw my vote in for the Taipan Veteran. Daystate also has been mentioned several times among upper end guns.
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I’ll throw my vote in for the Taipan Veteran.
8)
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Takes time to figure out what's the most trouble free...so I kind of look on PCP'sthat have been in service for less than a few years (lets say 3-4) with doubts.
As fast as new PCP are coming out in today's market, "Golden Age of Air Rifles" as it's been constantly referred, this is old. Doubt me? Why are airgun addicts.....you know whom you are ::) keep looking at a new fling every 3-6 months ;D ;)
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I think one of the keys here that has not been discussed much is this: I think the key to getting an outstanding gun "out of the box" is knowing what you want, and getting a PCP that delivers as close to that as possible right away with no fiddling or changes required all by following simple instructions. In other words - no chrony required . . . ;)
I have several Marauders and while I agree that they are a rock solid platform with minimal problems, it seems you never know what they are going to do out the box - we are always guessing at the fill range, among other things. I never felt comfortable with any of them until I had run them over the Chrony, and that always led to some tuning as the results clearly were not optimal.
I have a .22 Daystate Air Ranger, and that thing did exactly what it was supposed to do right out the box. It shot all pellets well with only one exception out of about 20 that I tested in it (the original JSB Monster was the bad one; the redesigned one is great). I tweaked the trigger to my liking of course - a simple procedure - but that was it for a long time. No problems at all. I did eventually tune it differently, but that was a conscious choice to use it differently than how it was set up from the factory.
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it seems like the Marauder and the Urban are both pretty strong in reliability out of the box
Given the cost considerations, specs and entry level I'd say these are very good contenders for the title.
They both can be had at a bargain new or used if one shops around.
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I don't think tuning a gun to meet your specific need constitutes "a problem".. nor is tweaking a trigger to your liking.
A problem gun to me is one that leaks or don't hold air at all, shotguns pellets all over the place or comes out of the box just plain broken. The other side of a problem gun is customer service.
If I paid upwards of $1000 and above for a gun and had the issues that I've seen some members here experience, I would get in my truck, drive to whoever sold it to me and stick it where the sun don't shine.
BTW... by tuning I mean making adjustment with the provided adjusters... not spending another $500 to tune it.
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A problem gun to me is one that leaks or don't hold air at all, shotguns pellets all over the place or comes out of the box just plain broken. The other side of a problem gun is customer service.
Bill - Why are you talk about my Chief like that ;D.
Remind me not to sell my Chief to you even though we are about 1500 miles apart ;)
I want to see the SUN SHINE but not from that direction.
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Other than trading two for one I've never paid more than $275 for an airgun anyways... and don't plan on it.
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I think we are making various assumptions as to the OP: Most Problem Free PCP?
Do we automatically assume a high end (>$1k AG) should be totally problem free for, say, 10+ years?
I have no doubt the fine gents at JSAR put a lot of time into each and every AG they build. And it shows!
But what about a mass production mid $ hundreds range (e.g. MRod), for 5+ years?
As others have mentioned, customer service, parts availability, aftermarket parts or even end user tuning/modding/adjusting friendly without sending to the factory for service or to someone else to mod/tune?
I did not have any real issues with my Gen I MRod (the air leak required new plumbers tape, and the bolt screw was my own dang fault).
But then I went whole hog replaced the internals, got a new stock, and after much help from the fine folks here at GTA, I polished the barrel.
And I fell IN LOVE with my MRod all over again.
But none of those were "problems," per say.
I think Problem free depends on one's expectations from their AG.
Regardless, good discussion and good to see others experiences with their AG.
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I have a
Benjamin Marauder,
AirForce Condor SS,
Crosman 2240,
Umarex Colt Peacemaker.
I have had no problems with any of them.
I will keep them all.
I have a Savage A22 lr that I can't hit anything with, and the magazine is not wonderful.
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Takes time to figure out what's the most trouble free...so I kind of look on PCP'sthat have been in service for less than a few years (lets say 3-4) with doubts.
As fast as new PCP are coming out in today's market, "Golden Age of Air Rifles" as it's been constantly referred, this is old. Doubt me? Why are airgun addicts.....you know whom you are ::) keep looking at a new fling every 3-6 months ;D ;)
I don't know if I would call it the 'Golden Age'... It's kind of like computers in the 1990's... New ones were coming out every year, and they were advancing so much, they rendered what they replaced pretty much obsolete! Our PCP's are getting better and better at a fantastic rate... If you're buying Airguns for fun, that's awesome... But, if you're looking at any kind of investment like you might have with a powder burner, FORGET IT! lol
I say, buy a nice, proven mid range air gun that has a lot going for it, and simply ENJOY it. Don't spend stupid money, as it will NOT hold it's value. Simply buy a SHOOTER that puts a smile on your face, and get some trigger time! WHAT you want will depend upon your needs. Is it hunting? Is it target shooting? Is it a little bit of both? If so, how much of both? Lots of good choices... Just need to know your needs and budget! :)
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Yep, I'm good on .22 cal with my modified Marauder. I'm good on big bore with my Slayer. Now my modified .25 Marauder is great, but limited to 56 FPE in accuracy, and it won't shoot slugs well. I wanna fix that, plus an upgrade would be nice, so I have started on my hunt for options.
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OP asked a simple question, so I'll try to give a simple answer.
There's no such thing as a problem free PCP, any PCP can and will eventually fail, and that failure may be due to a minor issue or a major problem. Yhere are some makes and models that have proven themselves as durable and reliable over the decades. Mrod, AF, AT44, these are the ones that spring to my mind as being reasonably priced but durable and reliable and capable of taking a pounding.
If I were looking for the least problematic PCP, I'd start by looking at guns available over the last decade, and the popularity of those from the perspective of how widely distributed they are and how many units were sold during production. If there's a problem with a particular make and model, it will be made known sooner or later.
Then I'd start looking at the mechanics of them, exploded view diagrams are the things best for this if you can't get your hands on an actual torn down ag, opting for the ones with as few moving parts and seals as possible. More moving parts and seals equals more potential things to go wrong or fail. Sometimes even the ways some parts may be designed can be a source of problems. Simplest is best.
Just my take on it, ymmv
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::) ::) All toys break and at some point need fixing or replacing. I have a good friend in Connecticut who owns a repair shop for high end Euro cars He has owned and driven many fine cars and his attitude is no matter the cost or how well they perform all are junk WHEN not if they break. My experience is if it is mechanical IT will eventually break and require TLC. The term is MTTF (Mean Time To Failure). First thing is most of us on the forum love to tinker and very few just shoot our toys. At this point the only rifle that I own that has not been fiddled with except for cleaning is my FX Crown. ;D ;D
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Up to now in this very unscientific thread, it seems like the Marauder and the Urban are both pretty strong in reliability out of the box. The Marauder has been around a very long time and the Urban has a few years under it’s belt. This is a pretty good start information wise for novices. For those who adhere to the adage “buy once, cry once” I’ll throw my vote in for the Taipan Veteran. Daystate also has been mentioned several times among upper end guns.
Just to add some context, the Urban is based on the BSA Techstar/MMC platform which has been around a long time. I had a BSA Sportsman HV and an Ultra for about 5 years and they were problem free tact drivers. I still have a Scorpion SE and a Gamo Dynamax/Sportman HV and the only issue Ive had was replacing the probe Oring. The BSA platfrom is pretty solid with the one exception being the R-10s but those issues were due to the regulator. You can get parts for the Urban from the UK if anything goes wrong. Not sure if AoA is selling BSA parts again at this time.
If I had to go with a troublefree/ easily servicable airgun I'd go with Disco. Orings and parts are easy to find and they're easy to work on. Marauder isn't a bad choice either.
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I don't have as many pellets downrange as some but the rifle with most pellets through it is my Air Arms 200T. I've never had any problems with it.
Next would be my resealed and resprung B51's. Not much to go wrong due to their simple designs.
I have two HW100 with the least amount of pellets. Zero issues. They work great straight out of the box.
I haven't shot my BSA's or Sentry's enough to comment on.
Thanks,
Taso
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Most trouble free PCP? Gotta be the Umarex Hammer. No malfunctions anywhere to anyone! :) 😂
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Out of the three rifles I have experience with which are, M-Rod, Disco, BSA Scorpion SE, I would say the BSA is the most trouble free.
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I don't think tuning a gun to meet your specific need constitutes "a problem".. nor is tweaking a trigger to your liking.
A problem gun to me is one that leaks or don't hold air at all, shotguns pellets all over the place or comes out of the box just plain broken. The other side of a problem gun is customer service.
If I paid upwards of $1000 and above for a gun and had the issues that I've seen some members here experience, I would get in my truck, drive to whoever sold it to me and stick it where the sun don't shine.
BTW... by tuning I mean making adjustment with the provided adjusters... not spending another $500 to tune it.
This is my thinking exactly!