GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: rsterne on June 03, 2019, 10:38:50 PM
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Check out this YouTube video....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_ud2M1gGlU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_ud2M1gGlU)
Bob
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Cant beat old Hopes 9 might have to try that on my texan followed by several patches of wax chain lube.
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I’m about to give away a industry secret and that is by far the best lead removal method and it’s also the cheapest but not the easiest. Go to your local Dollar store and buy the cheapest oven cleaner spray you can find then remove the barrel and the orings if it has any then simply plug each end and fill the barrel up threw the transfer port this will absolutely remove ALL lead guaranteed I’ve done it 100s of times. You can also put it on a cotton ball and swab it.
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Sounds like a good way, Travis, if you don't mind the work of removing the barrel and O-rings....
I have always used Hoppe's #9 for all my PBs, it's nice to see a test that shows it is still one of, if not the, best.... I have always wondered what it did to O-rings so I have two 0.070 CS Buna rings, a 70D and 90D, soaking in it right now.... After over an hour there is no noticeable change in diameter or hardness, although it appears that the thickness has increased about 1% (roughly a thou)…. I'll leave them overnight and check them again in the morning.... I have used them on AG's before dried afterwards with a few patches and never had a problem.... but I thought a prolonged soak would settle once and for all if they will stand up to good ol' #9....
Bob
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Definitely not the easiest way but if you have a really fouled barrel it will remove 100% of the lead 100% of the time.
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Bob, thanks for posting that video. I had a bottle of Hoppe's No. 9 on the shelf that I hadn't used in a while so I decided to clean one of my .177 Crosman barrels. Here's a closeup of the first patch...
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=6449)
Granted I had recently run a bunch of Crosman Premier Hollow Points through it but I don't typically see that many lead flakes on the first patch when I use other cleaners like Goo Gone or Kroil. The next couple of patches were pretty dirty looking but no noticeable flakes. Kinda makes me wish I had a particularly stubborn bore that needed to be cleaned but by now I've pretty much done the J-B Bore Paste and Bore Brite treatment to them all. Nonetheless I think I'll continue using it for routine cleaning for a while and see how it goes.
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I wonder how carburetor or break cleaner would do, anyone tried those?
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I wonder how carburetor or break cleaner would do, anyone tried those?
That brake cleaner works amazing on other things I'm sure it would clean barrels very very well.
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After soaking the O-rings in Hoppe's #9 for 20 hours, there was a noticeable change in their characteristics.... The 90D "felt" like a 70D, and the 70D was a lot softer than it started out.... They were both 0.070" CS at the beginning, and the 70D swelled up to about 0.074" and the 90D to about 0.072".... They were 1/2" OD, and the diameter of the 70D increased about 0.030" and the 90D about 0.015".... So, the #9 had about twice the effect on the 70D O-ring that it did on the 90D.... about a 6% increase for the 70D and about 3% for the 90D....
I now have both O-rings dried off and sitting on my bench.... I will check them tomorrow to see if they shrink back to their original size and harden up again as the Hoppe's evaporates.... Other than being "softer", they appear normal, they are not gummy or cracked....
Bob
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Good report, lets see what tomorrow holds.
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I recently found an old Hoppe's shotgun cleaning kit I got for Christmas back in '69. It still had the little bottle of #9 in it. I used it sparingly then, and have been using it sparingly since I found it. Still smells exactly like it did when they made it. Bob I am so glad you posted this. I read a thread somewhere on another forum that was very convincing that #9 should never be used to clean an airgun. Glad they were wrong. It DOES clean lead good, doesn't it!
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It will be interesting to see if the O-rings return to "normal" after a day or two.... It's not like cleaning with a bore snake or rod and patch would be anything like leaving the O-rings soaking in #9 for 20 hours anyways.... and they certainly didn't "fall apart" or go all "gummy" like they would with some solvents.... I can remember what brake cleaner did to the rubber cups in brake cylinders.... not a pretty sight, all gummy, black stuff coming off on your hands, and swollen about 25%....
We'll see what they are like tomorrow.... If they have returned to "normal" or close, I would not be afraid of using Hoppes to clean an airgun….
Bob
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It will be interesting to see if the O-rings return to "normal" after a day or two.... It's not like cleaning with a bore snake or rod and patch would be anything like leaving the O-rings soaking in #9 for 20 hours anyways.... and they certainly didn't "fall apart" or go all "gummy" like they would with some solvents.... I can remember what brake cleaner did to the rubber cups in brake cylinders.... not a pretty sight, all gummy, black stuff coming off on your hands, and swollen about 25%....
We'll see what they are like tomorrow.... If they have returned to "normal" or close, I would not be afraid of using Hoppes to clean an airgun….
Bob
I had a conversation with Dennis Baker about air guns that were regularly cleaned with CLP, #9, remoil or the likes. He said every one had some sort of sealing failure after the rubber broke down and turned into a sludge of sorts.
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A lot depends on what the O-rings are made of. Some are relatively inert; some are not. You figure there's ethyl-pro rubber, silicone, nitrile-rubber (so called BUNA AKA Buna-Nitrile), polyurethane and urethane, fluorocarbon (AKA Viton which isn't really affected by anything!), and of course, neoprene (whch would be pointless in airguns).
The Viton are always my first choice, but that's also cuz of working in a hydraulic shop during my navy years and handling a couple O-rings. Viton is excellent in HPA systems; it is in fact what we used in Vaaco reducers and Marotta actuators. Buna-N was the first choice for hydraulics, but based on some of the mil-spec docs, that was as much because of cost as anything- they're cheaper than fluorocarbon.
My father-in-law told me about oven-cleaner for deep cleaning barrels- I never bought into that but now... especially given how accurate his father's .32 USAF service revolver still is, I think I may give it a go (thanks Travis!). I still prefer the scent of Hoppe's over CLP :o
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Be advised that most oven cleaners are very alkaline (high PH). This will strip anodization from aluminum before it literally dissolves the aluminum away.
I had a kit for making hydrogen balloons when I was a kid that illustrated this process. It contained lye prills which were put in a coke bottle and then water added. Chopped up strips of aluminum foil were added then a balloon was stretched over the mouth off the bottle. The reaction between the aluminum foil and lye liberated a lot of hydrogen which filled the balloon. Once full a string was tied to it to seal the balloon and a message pouch attached. The balloon was then launched into the wild blue yonder!
I shudder to think of a pretty new Raptor and a ruined finish. An Impact and exposure to this solution would be pure TERROR! :'(
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I have no doubt that you can find O-rings that are completely impervious to Hoppe's #9.... However, most of our airguns use plain ol' Buna-N, which is what I typically use, because I can buy them locally.... That is why I'm testing them.... I have seen what "brake cleaner" does to rubber, it does indeed turn it into a "sludge".... I did not see that with the test I performed, which was a 20 hour soak in liquid #9.... YMMV of course....
Bob
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Be advised that most oven cleaners are very alkaline (high PH). This will strip anodization from aluminum before it literally dissolves the aluminum away.
I had a kit for making hydrogen balloons when I was a kid that illustrated this process. It contained lye prills which were put in a coke bottle and then water added. Chopped up strips of aluminum foil were added then a balloon was stretched over the mouth off the bottle. The reaction between the aluminum foil and lye liberated a lot of hydrogen which filled the balloon. Once full a string was tied to it to seal the balloon and a message pouch attached. The balloon was then launched into the wild blue yonder!
I shudder to think of a pretty new Raptor and a ruined finish. An Impact and exposure to this solution would be pure TERROR! :'(
Thats why I said you have to pull the barrel and orings this is only for stubborn deposits that wont come out conventionally
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How about home brew "Ed's Red". Ive got a fifth (750ml) + aging nicely in the basement for PB cleaning.
This site has the formulation aand a bunch of other "home remedies" for cleaning, storage, etc.
https://www.frfrogspad.com/homemade.htm (https://www.frfrogspad.com/homemade.htm)
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A lot depends on what the O-rings are made of. Some are relatively inert; some are not. You figure there's ethyl-pro rubber, silicone, nitrile-rubber (so called BUNA AKA Buna-Nitrile), polyurethane and urethane, fluorocarbon (AKA Viton which isn't really affected by anything!), and of course, neoprene (whch would be pointless in airguns).
The Viton are always my first choice, but that's also cuz of working in a hydraulic shop during my navy years and handling a couple O-rings. Viton is excellent in HPA systems; it is in fact what we used in Vaaco reducers and Marotta actuators. Buna-N was the first choice for hydraulics, but based on some of the mil-spec docs, that was as much because of cost as anything- they're cheaper than fluorocarbon.
My father-in-law told me about oven-cleaner for deep cleaning barrels- I never bought into that but now... especially given how accurate his father's .32 USAF service revolver still is, I think I may give it a go (thanks Travis!). I still prefer the scent of Hoppe's over CLP :o
Viton is good for almost all petroleum applications, however, Viton and Buna-A CANNOT handle Co2. The ONLY material that works with Co2 are POLYURETHANE O-rings and seals!
Just thought I'd throw that one in! Dave
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True about Viton being incompatible with CO2. It is permeable to CO2. Actually there is a type of Viton that is compatible but the common kind we typically encounter is not compatible. It also swells in the presence of high pressure air but it does not seem to lose pressure so it works fine for static seals but the swelling can pose problems for dynamic (moving) seals.
Buna-N on the other hand is just fine for CO2. Technically most common seal materials are permeable to CO2 to some degree. I don’t have the numbers in front of me but it is low for Buna-N. A recent anecdote, my SPA 600 has Buna-N seals and was put away last fall with a partial 12gr Powerlet. When I pulled it back out 5 months later, it still had pressure. That’s good enough for me to consider it negligible.
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Kroil also works for lead.
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just a PSA on cleaning:
Through some poor experiences with the o-rings on valves and TPs failing way too early and some recommendations from other experienced airgunners I learned - it is not good to let the cleaning fluids go down the barrel port into the valve. After some problems I found the right way is to either clean the guns upside down in a cradle or at least shoot the excess bore solvents out of the valve after cleaning the barrel.
Of course, that's with regular composition o-rings, try researching what compounds are available and switch and some are practically indestructible.
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I've always used Hoppes #9 for my airguns 8)
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OK, so 20 hours after I removed them from the Hoppe's #9, the 90D Buna-N O-ring has returned to its original state.... I can't measure any difference in dimensions, and the using "squeeze test" (distorting the O-ring to an oval) I use to sort 70D from 90D it feels just like an unmolested 90D.... The 70D O-ring has returned nearly to its before test state.... It is still about 0.001" thicker and about 0.005" larger in diameter, and feels "slightly" softer than a new one.... It might have lost about 10D at this point, but I would think will eventually return to its pre-soaked condition.... I could still smell the #9 on the 70D O-ring, so that tells me it is still evaporating from it....
I haven't seen anything that would make me afraid of using Hoppe's #9 to clean my barrel without removing it from my PCP, however as stated by others, I would clean the gun "upside down" so that no liquid Hoppe's ran into the valve.... Normal cleaning uses dry patches until they come out clean, and at that point I think so little #9 would be left on the breech seal O-ring I doubt it would soften it significantly.... By comparison my 20 hour soak test was pretty drastic....
I can't guarantee that you won't have any problems with seals if you use Hoppe's #9 to clean your barrel.... but I personally plan to use it whenever dry patches or a bore snake won't remove visible leading.... I will do it with the gun upside down (valve up), and leave it muzzle down to drain out any excess if I leave it a few minutes to soften the leading.... and then I will use dry patches until they come out clean.... Likewise, if using a bore-snake I would not hesitate to put some on the leading part of the snake, because the back part will nearly immediately dry the bore anyways.... Dry firing a few shots (air but no pellet) is also a good idea, and will become part of my cleaning regimin....
I was soooooooo impressed with the video comparing the 10 different products at the beginning of this thead…. and I have always liked Hoppe's #9 for PB use.... I felt it was necessary to do this test on Buna-N O-rings to see if it turned them to mush.... which it did not, even after a 20 hour soak, submerged in liquid #9....
Bob
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Does nylon could be more resistant to this type of chemical??? If I could use nylon or hdpe oring everywhere I would..
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True about Viton being incompatible with CO2. It is permeable to CO2. Actually there is a type of Viton that is compatible but the common kind we typically encounter is not compatible. It also swells in the presence of high pressure air but it does not seem to lose pressure so it works fine for static seals but the swelling can pose problems for dynamic (moving) seals.
Buna-N on the other hand is just fine for CO2. Technically most common seal materials are permeable to CO2 to some degree. I don’t have the numbers in front of me but it is low for Buna-N. A recent anecdote, my SPA 600 has Buna-N seals and was put away last fall with a partial 12gr Powerlet. When I pulled it back out 5 months later, it still had pressure. That’s good enough for me to consider it negligible.
I tried some Viton seals in the MP-40 piecing plug which I rigged for 1/8" NPT to 3/16" compression tubing set up tethered to a 20 oz bottle. Turned on the juice and it sealed just fine. Gave it a good work out, but when I went to disassemble everything......the O ring was twice its size and came apart in pieces! So much for that!
BTW, reading some of these posts on "Sanitizing Bores" with oven cleaner and Brake fluid etc..etc.. "cracks me up!" :( Run an oil patch down the barrel and be done with it! Airgun seals DON'T like or react well to harsh foriegn chemicals....Most airgun seals like PTFE or Silicone Lubricants. Unarex wants a drop of mineral oil on their Co2 piercing Polyurethane gland seals 3-in-1 oil? No problems yet! As always... JMHO! Dave
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Dave, while pellets may not foul barrels, it seems pretty clear from the evidence that bullets in powerful PCPs are a different matter, even with ultra-smooth bores.... The manufacturer of the Thomas BR rifles (at $5K not for everyone) cleans his barrels after every card (25 shots) IIRC, and that is with pellets at 850 fps.... It seems if your barrel doesn't like cleaning, then don't.... but some do.... I have heard the arguments against using "harsh chemicals" in airguns with rubber seals.... and believed them until I ran my own test.... I'm sure some chemicals will destroy seals in short order.... others, not so much....
Bob
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Used hopes9 on my texan. This was after cleaning with bright bore and 5 or 6 pulls of wax lube. I then ran 10 dry patches.. It was still grey lead strips on the patches. 1 pull 1 patch of Hopes 9 and it was filthy with metal flakes. I let it soak 5-10min pulled another patch. Just a little dirty. 3rd patch was pretty much clean as it entered. 4-8 was with wax lube then 3 dry. Im good with it!
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Sounds like a good way, Travis, if you don't mind the work of removing the barrel and O-rings....
I have always used Hoppe's #9 for all my PBs, it's nice to see a test that shows it is still one of, if not the, best.... I have always wondered what it did to O-rings so I have two 0.070 CS Buna rings, a 70D and 90D, soaking in it right now.... After over an hour there is no noticeable change in diameter or hardness, although it appears that the thickness has increased about 1% (roughly a thou)…. I'll leave them overnight and check them again in the morning.... I have used them on AG's before dried afterwards with a few patches and never had a problem.... but I thought a prolonged soak would settle once and for all if they will stand up to good ol' #9....
Bob
Years ago I tested out Hoppes #9 on HW breech seals and the Viton orings I use for my oring sealed piston caps. Here is the result..........
(https://i.imgur.com/Ky3sj4vl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/psMqdNzl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/RQqb1NXl.jpg)
I soaked my HW breech seals and Viton orings in straight Hoppes #9 for several days and could detect no difference in hardness or pliability. I'm assuming that it's PROBABLY ok to use Hoppes #9 for a minute or two occasionally when "bore fouling removal" if absolutely necessary.
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Thanks for adding that nced…. much appreciated....
Bob
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I sometimes tend to cheat. I leave a bullet in the breach to seal the barrel, with the action de-cocked. this prevent any chemical from entering the actin or transfer port.
This is when I am lazy and don't want to pull the barrel. I do use a muzzle guide and high quality rod from bore tech. ;D
Mike/Knife
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Bronze wool is best for lead. Of course you can't drag it over o-rings.
But if you've really got a leaded bore, the wool will clean it out in just a few strokes.
I've cleaned my 9mm carbine enough times to know that it really works. Undersize and over hard bullets would leave SHEETS of leading! But I was finally able to get a .358 mold, a big enough expander and the alloy soft enough to tackle that problem. No magic lubes needed either! But I digress....
I myself will keep my nitro powder solvents exclusively for powder burners. If I ever get a leading problem in an airgun, I'll figure out a way to prevent it from happening in the first place.
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an o-ring material to consider is HNBR (Hydrogenated Nitrile Butadiene Rubber) which has more strength and resists pressure better and is more chemically inert to solvents/oils
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrile_rubber#Hydrogenated_nitrile_butadiene_rubber_(HNBR) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrile_rubber#Hydrogenated_nitrile_butadiene_rubber_(HNBR))
In the video the test for Hoppe's Elite did well but not as well as the Hoppe's #9... but I have found that the Elite and a brush does very well (and I've been using #9 for 50 years as my go to cleaning product before Elite) and it has never damaged a finish FOR ME but I don't rub it all over my guns, just on patches and brushes that contact the bore.
I have also used Tompson-Center T-17 Foaming Bore Cleaner and it has worked on some nasty bores to lift the lead after a couple hours soak.
BUT, my #1 lead remover is the KleenBore Lead Wipe-away cloth which WILL pull the lead out of a barrel great.
https://www.amazon.com/Kleenbore-Gun-Care-Lead-Cloth/dp/B002IEIDG4 (https://www.amazon.com/Kleenbore-Gun-Care-Lead-Cloth/dp/B002IEIDG4)
Yes, it says a lot about cleaning up burn marks on stainless steel revolver cylinders BUT wrapped on a jag (not a slotted patch tip) and run back and forth through a barrel a few times (flip the patch to the reverse side and repeat) the lead just comes out in slivers! 100 sq inches and a package has lasted me years a patch at a time per the occasional cleaning when needed {prevention is best but sometimes the lead sneaks in, haha}
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I have a box of assorted HNBR from Harbor Freight. These are the WORST o-ring material I have ever used. They compress easily creep, deform and flow under high pressure. I use them when I want an o-ring that will conform to a shape and then stay in that shape even after pressure is removed. Certainly no good for anything airgun related in my book.
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At least part of that poor performance is likely due to the material being too soft. Many of the common O-ring kits are stocked with 50 durometer because it works well for 98% of the stuff around the home and workshop that is in the 20 - 150psi range (e.g. residential water pressure, a shop compressor, etc.). Of course they almost never have the durometer labeled so there's no way to select for it.
In the proper durometer, HNBR is a pretty good material for airgun seals. Overkill in most places, actually. It has better tear resistance and extrusion resistance than plain Buna-N. For example, it is the preferred material that Hill uses on the high pressure piston of their hand pumps.
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I have a box of assorted HNBR from Harbor Freight. These are the WORST o-ring material I have ever used. They compress easily creep, deform and flow under high pressure. I use them when I want an o-ring that will conform to a shape and then stay in that shape even after pressure is removed. Certainly no good for anything airgun related in my book.
You get what you pay for, agree with Nervoustrigger on the usual o-ring kits Durometer, too many unknowns / lies about what stuff really is.
I don't buy from discount stores or auto parts stores on items like o-rings for HPA, I spend the extra $.20 ea and get a known material and known standard qualities.
Please try some of the 'good stuff' and you might change your mind. Good o-rings are not THAT expensive.
Cheap is good sometimes, sometimes not so much.
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I have a box of assorted HNBR from Harbor Freight. These are the WORST o-ring material I have ever used. They compress easily creep, deform and flow under high pressure. I use them when I want an o-ring that will conform to a shape and then stay in that shape even after pressure is removed. Certainly no good for anything airgun related in my book.
You get what you pay for, agree with Nervoustrigger on the usual o-ring kits Durometer, too many unknowns / lies about what stuff really is.
I don't buy from discount stores or auto parts stores on items like o-rings for HPA, I spend the extra $.20 ea and get a known material and known standard qualities.
Please try some of the 'good stuff' and you might change your mind. Good o-rings are not THAT expensive.
Cheap is good sometimes, sometimes not so much.
I pay about $2.00 apiece for 90 Durometer .097" cross section (Crosman) Urethane O-rings. Nothing else really works like Urethane in a prolonged CO2 environment.
I just got off the phone with Tim at Mac 1. He uses nothing but Urethane in all his HPA reg rebuilds ( He replaces the cheap Buna-A seals) in ALL of his Co2 HPA, and PCP Guns. He uses all 90 Durometer Mil spec Urethane rings on almost everything. Reason, he said," I don't want my customers coming back after 2 years." Bottom line, the higher the Durometer....the longer the life of the O-ring.
Concerning the main subject on "Bore Cleaning" Tim uses nothing but WD-40 down the Barrels with 3 or 4 passes to achieve a "Grey Patch" He explained that WD-40 is the best,
safest, and most effective method to liberate lead from steel....and will NOT mess with O-rings. He explained that stripping, sanitizing barrels is really unnecessary, that, if the Barrel is really tight, you will initially loose a notable amount of velocity due to pressure decrease through the stripped rifling. He told me that Pushing 1900 FPS He'll run a patch through every 100 shots BTW, He also said, "Lead IS a natural lubricant!"
The use of Hoppe's No9, Oven cleaner...whatever...is totally unnecessary because the only contaminate is Lead! I'll take it from "The Master" Use WD-40! ;) Dave
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I have a box of assorted HNBR from Harbor Freight. These are the WORST o-ring material I have ever used. They compress easily creep, deform and flow under high pressure. I use them when I want an o-ring that will conform to a shape and then stay in that shape even after pressure is removed. Certainly no good for anything airgun related in my book.
You get what you pay for, agree with Nervoustrigger on the usual o-ring kits Durometer, too many unknowns / lies about what stuff really is.
I don't buy from discount stores or auto parts stores on items like o-rings for HPA, I spend the extra $.20 ea and get a known material and known standard qualities.
Please try some of the 'good stuff' and you might change your mind. Good o-rings are not THAT expensive.
Cheap is good sometimes, sometimes not so much.
I pay about $2.00 apiece for 90 Durometer .097" cross section (Crosman) Urethane O-rings. Nothing else really works like Urethane in a prolonged CO2 environment.
I just got off the phone with Tim at Mac 1. He uses nothing but Urethane in all his HPA reg rebuilds ( He replaces the cheap Buna-A seals) in ALL of his Co2 HPA, and PCP Guns. He uses all 90 Durometer Mil spec Urethane rings on almost everything. Reason, he said," I don't want my customers coming back after 2 years." Bottom line, the higher the Durometer....the longer the life of the O-ring.
Concerning the main subject on "Bore Cleaning" Tim uses nothing but WD-40 down the Barrels with 3 or 4 passes to achieve a "Grey Patch" He explained that WD-40 is the best,
safest, and most effective method to liberate lead from steel....and will NOT mess with O-rings. He explained that stripping, sanitizing barrels is really unnecessary, that, if the Barrel is really tight, you will initially loose a notable amount of velocity due to pressure decrease through the stripped rifling. He told me that Pushing 1900 FPS He'll run a patch through every 100 shots BTW, He also said, "Lead IS a natural lubricant!"
The use of Hoppe's No9, Oven cleaner...whatever...is totally unnecessary because the only contaminate is Lead! I'll take it from "The Master" Use WD-40! ;) Dave
"the only contaminate is Lead!"
Not necessarily true! Decades ago when my brother was shooting unlubed 10.5 grain boxed Crosman Premier "heavies" from his .177 Beeman R9 his accuracy went from groups to patterns at 30 yards and no amount of pulled patches restored the accuracy. Then he used his bore scope and found that the rifling just in front of the choke was completely burried under shiny lead that was polished with pulled patches. That is why he used a Hoppes #9 soaking plus a bronze brush to clean the bore of fouling. After the "Hoppes soak and brushing" the rifling in front of the choke was again visible with the bore scope and his accuracy returned to normal...........
(https://i.imgur.com/QDfRViZl.jpg)
That was in Feb 2001 and at that time we both did a search for a pellet lube to keep the lead alloy from "soldering" itself in the rifling. Forst we tried FP10 as a lube and it worked, however the combination of FP10, Crosman heavies, and leather pellet pouch caused the stored pellets to "corode" in the sense that the lubed pellets had a grey greasy coating that seemed to foul our bores rather quickly. The next lube tested was aerosol Slick 50 OneLube (not the auto engine stuff) and it worked perfectly keeping the bores of "soldered on lead", plus cleaning the bore when needed was/is (I still use OneLube) a simple matter of pulling through a patch moistened with RemOil followed by a couple dry patches.
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I had saw that video or one like it a few years ago. It gave me a boost of confidence in #9 and that’s what I soak my barrels in, whether it be for my initial deep cleaning I do with a drill chuck and brush, or afterwards where I usually just have to run patches thru or do a light brushing thru forever after.
I have used brake cleaner after removing orings and the barrel. I don’t see where its does something for me Kroil doesn’t as far as being something that knocks out the last bit of gunk that’s been previously loosened. I find that its far more useful for cleaning dirty brushes.
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Interesting discussion. thanks for sharing. I never have considered my pellets leading. I have cast bullets for years, the best lead remover I have used back when having using the wrong bullet diameter for a gun was the "Lewis" type lead remover. the little copper wire screens.
hoppes ingredients #9 MSDS.
http://www.hoppes.com/Hoppes/files/9d/9dc3db35-232c-4353-bc5c-9b3e79cfc834.pdf (http://www.hoppes.com/Hoppes/files/9d/9dc3db35-232c-4353-bc5c-9b3e79cfc834.pdf)
o-ring compatibility.
https://www.sterlitech.com/oring-compatibility-chart (https://www.sterlitech.com/oring-compatibility-chart)
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Using the information in those two links together, the only material listed with "satisfactory" resistance to all four products in Hoppe's #9 is PTFE (Telfon)….
The ingredients are:
Ethyl Alcohol 15-40%
Kerosene 15-40%
Amyl Acetate (Banana Oil) 5-10%
Ammonium Hydroxide 1-5%
Ammonium Hydroxide in the compatability list is "concentrated", not the less than 5% as in the Hoppe's....
Buna-N rates "satisfactory" for the first two (the major ingredients), but "unsatisfactory" for the latter two....
Ethylene-Propylene (EP) rates "satisfactory" for three of the components, but "unsatisfactory" for kerosene (a major ingredient)….
Fluor-Elastomer (Viton) has one rating each of "satisfactory" (kerosene), "fair", "severe effects" and "unsatisfactory"
IMO, for it's resistance to Hoppe's #9, from that chart, Buna-N is a better choice than EP or Viton.... Teflon O-rings would be too hard, no?.... I have never heard of them being used for a breech seal....
Bob
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I use to use the Hoppe's #9, but have switched over to the Shooter's Choice Lead remover. I find it works better and faster for me.
I've also switched my pellet lube from FP-10 to Modern Spartan Accuracy oil. It's more of a Nano-tech barrel treatment, but works quite well for both. Like many others, I have tried all of the popular lubes and techniques as well.
As far as the breech O-rings, I don't sweat them as they are cheap and easy to replace. When I do decide it's time to clean the barrels, they get a good scrubbing with a brush and rod along with a fresh O-ring afterwards.
I do use a pull through or a Bore Snake routinely for light barrel maintenance, and with that and using the lube, barrel cleanings are far and few between.
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Bob, here's a good reference I saved a while back. Warco's chemical resistance guide. It characterizes the compatibility of 14 different seal materials to some 600+ chemicals. FWIW, I don't see anything that is ideally suited to Hoppe's No 9. As you stated, PTFE would be too hard to be useful for a breech/bolt O-ring.
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"Ideal" may not be required unless you are soaking the O-ring in it for a prolonged time.... IMO the Buna-N seem to be "OK" for relatively short exposure during cleaning.... which is fortunate, because they are the most common (and what I use all the time) for breech seals....
Bob
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Yeah I get that...I was just pointing out that unlike the Sterlitech reference which includes just 4 seal materials, the Warco reference has 14 and none of them is ideally suited either.
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I did switch to all polyurethane o-rings for my Marauder rebuilds. They seem to resist scrapes and abrasion of assembly much better. I have not had a Marauder leak since I switched.
The Harbor Freight HNBR I had "around" were from some I purchased as replacements in some automotive refrigeration seals. Just thought I would try them one day on an airgun when I did not have the correct seal and was very dissapointed.
I get most of my seals from The O-Ring Store now.
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Thurmond, I switched to the same o rings. I already had some here fro the o ring store that I purchased for the Shoebox of old. They were not high enough quality for the rigors fo the SB, however, they are very suited to breech duties. ;)
This is particularly important as I made a new bolt/probe for the RS II, and incorporated the o ring in the probe rather than the breech. As it has to pass thru the mag it seemed like a good idea at the time.
Norman o rings were destroyed in a few hundred shots. The first Poly o ring has been in use for a few thousand now, and shows no wear what so ever. ;)
Mike
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Bob, the older Hoppe's 9 had Benzene in it. As I recall Benzene and Buna-n are not compatible. So, did the Hoppe's 9 you tested list Benzene as an ingredient?
Take care, Mike
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The next lube tested was aerosol Slick 50 OneLube (not the auto engine stuff) and it worked perfectly keeping the bores of "soldered on lead", plus cleaning the bore when needed was/is (I still use OneLube) a simple matter of pulling through a patch moistened with RemOil followed by a couple dry patches.
What's your procedure for applying the Slick 50? Ace Hardware supposedly has it in a 12oz can for $4.99 so think I'll give it a shot. ;)
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Put 50 or so in a Ziploc bag and squirt one or maybe two pumps in then kneed around until the bullets are all coated.
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Using the information in those two links together, the only material listed with "satisfactory" resistance to all four products in Hoppe's #9 is PTFE (Telfon)….
The ingredients are:
Ethyl Alcohol 15-40%
Kerosene 15-40%
Amyl Acetate (Banana Oil) 5-10%
Ammonium Hydroxide 1-5%
Ammonium Hydroxide in the compatability list is "concentrated", not the less than 5% as in the Hoppe's....
Buna-N rates "satisfactory" for the first two (the major ingredients), but "unsatisfactory" for the latter two....
Ethylene-Propylene (EP) rates "satisfactory" for three of the components, but "unsatisfactory" for kerosene (a major ingredient)….
Fluor-Elastomer (Viton) has one rating each of "satisfactory" (kerosene), "fair", "severe effects" and "unsatisfactory"
IMO, for it's resistance to Hoppe's #9, from that chart, Buna-N is a better choice than EP or Viton.... Teflon O-rings would be too hard, no?.... I have never heard of them being used for a breech seal....
Bob
"Buna-N is a better choice than EP or Viton..."
The Viton orings were used with my home made oring sealed piston caps (not breech seals) so contact with Hoppes #9 wouldn't be an issue. The reason I use mil spec Viton orings for piston cap sealing is because the shelf life of Viton is practically un-limited (Buna-N only has a 10 year shelf life). Another issue is that Viton has a much greater resistance to heat than Buna-N. Buna N has a temperature resistance up to about 120 °C. and Viton has a temperature resistance up to about 300 °C so Viton is more resistant to high compression temperatures in my piston guns. LOL, I've had Viton orings in my R9 outlast a couple good aftermarket main springs so it's not a big deal to replace a 10 cent oring when needed. My brother had the same Viton oring in his .177 R9 for 4 seasons shooting roughly 10,000 shots per season (a 1250 count box of CPLs per month for about 10 months during a season). Here are a couple oring sealed piston caps with Viton orings........
(https://i.imgur.com/YWDOeD8l.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/GyTMWD7l.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/qRSjZd3l.jpg)
LOL......the tests were done over a few days so I figured that less than an hour removing pellet fouling really isn't a big deal! Anywhoo.......after my brother used Hoppes #9 to clear out the CPL fouling in his bore and had no adverse with his factory HW breech seal for years afterward. The only issue with using #9 for bore clearing would be a factory HW95 breech seal which is why it was deliberately soaked in straight #9 for a few days as a test. Later, just for grins I tossed in a Viton oring to see if it would be affected, not that it's used as a breech seal. This pic shows both the HW factory breech seal and a Viton oring after the 5 day test. Also there is a new Viton oring shown next to the soaked oring only to show that the soaked oring didn't swell relative to a new ring from the package..........
(https://i.imgur.com/RQqb1NXl.jpg)
Anywhoo.....the only purpose of the #9 test was to determine if using the bore solvent in a HW break barrel for less than an hour would degrade the breech seal. My brothers' R9 had it's accuracy restored after "CPL fouling removal via Hoppes #9" and he had no breech seal issues with the gun for the several years I still lived in West Virginia and would squirrel hunt with him.
There are some PTFE clad silicone orings available for chemical processing where the PTFE resists the chemicals but the core gives the oring some resistance to set but since the cheap Viton orings were adequate for my purposes I never tried the PTFE coated orings........
https://www.allorings.com/teflon-encapsulated-o-rings (https://www.allorings.com/teflon-encapsulated-o-rings)