GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: Death_By_Air on May 17, 2019, 08:13:09 PM
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Well im getting frustrated with my Prod. I just cant seem to get a good group at all. I have done all of the fixes that I have read so far short of changing the barrel. I ran patches through the barrel until it wiped clean. Then ran dozens of patches to remove any solvent that may be lingering. Checked the breech oring. Picked the best looking pellets out of the tins. I had a LDC on the gun so naturally I thought I was getting clipping. So I removed the LDC, same issue. Tried stock setup, same issue. Then I removed the stock air stripper thinking maybe that was clipping, same issue. Tried just the bare barrel same issue. Chrony is mid 600's in the .22 14.3 range. A little lower with heavy pellets, high 600s with lighter ones. Filling to 2800 psi shooting down no less than 1500. And get about 32 good shots before I hit the 1500 mark. Here are some of the pellets I have tried and the groups Im getting. This is from only 15 yards(measured) and in a bench rest with a Hawke scope. Just did 4 shot group to make it easy with the 8 round mags for this demo.
(Read like a book across and down in the pics)
H&N Baracuda Hunter Extreme
H&N Crow mags (only pellet that seems to group with not insane fliers)
Benjamin pointed
Benjamin hollow point
Benjamin round nose
Benjamin expanding point
Ruger pointed
CPHP
beeman Kodiaks
HN match green
(Middle) group JSB jumbo heavy(was doing well until the crazy flier-all other groups i try get the same thing)
I feel like this is so off for 15 yards. I have been shooting air guns for a couple years now and dont think im a garbage shot. My other cheap 1322, 1377, 2240 QB's, other PCPs run circles around this Prod :(
any other suggestions? I got this from a family member who put less than 200 rounds through it and put it back in the box for about a year until I got it so I dont know about contacting Crosman or what they would be able to do at this point.
(https://i.ibb.co/V3XvcJh/20190517-182810.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XVmzrjd)
(https://i.ibb.co/ckKKhJ4/20190517-182746.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mbrr5Jf)
(https://i.ibb.co/HNdbWjF/20190517-182757.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jVRQcS6)
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Forgot to add this is in an indoor range. No wind or elements. :(
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Did you check the crown on the barrel? Then I'd check to make sure that the breech end isn't nicking the pellets. Did you try single loading pellets to see if the barrel isn't lining up right and getting damaged loading from the magazine?
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if it didnt print the cphp's within 1" at 20yrds.... :o
send it back if you bought it new, they have a great warranty ;)
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Unfortunately, some Prods came with a "bad" barrel. You may doing everything right, but the barrel is not helping .....
I have no fix to give you short of contacting Crosman with the serial number to your gun and talking to them.
Even if you have to buy a new barrel, it will certainly fix your gun, and it is a great little gun.
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Did you check the crown on the barrel? Then I'd check to make sure that the breech end isn't nicking the pellets. Did you try single loading pellets to see if the barrel isn't lining up right and getting damaged loading from the magazine?
I did think about this. Im going to try that next. I noticed some pellets types were a little difficult to load. Just a bit of friction involved. However, other pellets that seemed to feed like butter still shot awful. Ill hand feed a few and see what happens. One other thing I noticed, when I removed all the parts of the end of the barrel I saw scattered, small metallic fragments around the air stripper. I assume from pellets leaving the barrel? is that normal after say 500 or so round through it?
What am I looking for in the crown? The end of the barrel, correct?
Thanks for you advice!
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if it didnt print the cphp's within 1" at 20yrds.... :o
send it back if you bought it new, they have a great warranty ;)
Lol yeah the CPHP's at 15 yards gave me about the worst group with the H&N match coming in a close second!
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Unfortunately, some Prods came with a "bad" barrel. You may doing everything right, but the barrel is not helping .....
I have no fix to give you short of contacting Crosman with the serial number to your gun and talking to them.
Even if you have to buy a new barrel, it will certainly fix your gun, and it is a great little gun.
Yeah I was super excited to shoot this baby! I was crushed when none of the various grain and shape ~15 tins I had on hand would shoot worth a "dang". I had some RWS pellets I tried (not in these pics) that my 1322 and 2240 absolutely loved that ended up just like the groups here.
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Well the typical way to check crown is to swirl a Q tip around the crown to see if it snags or inspect by eye. If you need to polish what I do is push a pellet in from muzzle backwards. The skirt acts as a plug. Then chuck up a brass round head screw in drill. Using some compound like rouge or even gritty toothpaste, polish away. (Can’t remember for sure but iirc a 8 screw works.) Light pressure rotating it around to get an even crown. Oh and I usually drewl some spit in there to make a nice slurry eww. Then shoot the q tip out to clean it. You can further clean if you want but I’m lazy and call it done. Recheck to see if crown is good. Repeat if necessary.
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BTW I shoot offhand and at 15 yards a magazine leaves a big ragged hole with the cheap cphp.
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Did you shoot a shot string and have erratic fps readings? The other quick thing to do is remove the shroud & air stripper, shoot a group with CPHP pellets and see if the grouping gets better.
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(https://i.ibb.co/3CWw7D7/Hand-load.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6Wb2m3m)
Ok just did a hand load single pellet group with the pellets I have been getting the "best" groups with. Seemed like it didnt make a real improvement. MAYBE the Crow mags got slightly better?
Red is the Crow mags.
Im so baffled how these are the ONLY pellet that can even come close to a quarter size hole at 15 yards, clamped on a bench rest.
Blue is the JSB's.. 3 in the top and two in the lower group. still quite a bit of spread.
Black is the CPHP...lol still awful. Ironic because this is one of the most uniform skirt-ed tins I have received in a while.
Green is the Beeman Kodiaks. I shot more of these because I thought I was on to something hand loading these. However then began to spread out and had a crazy flier at 2200 psi so it didnt drop off.
Yellow was the Benjamin HP...two in the same hole with the mark, others spread out.
silver is the H&N green light weights...still a good spread.
So still not where I think they should be clamped in a bench rest at a measly 15 yards. Im still baffled byt the HN crow mags being the only thing that even comes close to a group I would expect from a Prod.
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appears you have a poor made barrel, if your crown and your breech oring is ok.
the prods usually are not pellet picky...at least the 3 i had were not. ???
crony your shots to see if there at least consistant speeds.
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Did you shoot a shot string and have erratic fps readings? The other quick thing to do is remove the shroud & air stripper, shoot a group with CPHP pellets and see if the grouping gets better.
Yeah I did shoot them in the stock shroud setup and stripper both on and both removed and got the same results as I mentioned in the first post. That was my first thought was something was clipping or air was being disturbed with them on. No luck :(
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Remove the barrel and push a CPHP pellet through it, inspect head for damage, could be the transfer port was modded for more fps causing all of the problems.
My first Prod was used and the guy I got it from said it shot great.. NOT. I disassembled the gun and found the rear trigger to end cap screw was loose. fixed that and my groups looked a lot better.
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appears you have a poor made barrel, if your crown and your breech oring is ok.
the prods usually are not pellet picky...at least the 3 i had were not. ???
crony your shots to see if there at least consistant speeds.
I know that is what I had read and have seen on many post here in this forum and elsewhere. :)
I just tried the Q-tip in the front of the barrel. Didnt seem as if it snagged to much. Tried 3 different Qtips to maybe get a better snag rate! hahaha 8). Im having fun with it now as im not having too much fun shooting. I will try and chrony a full 2-3 mags of the same pellet from a full fill tomorrow and see if I am getting any insane spikes and go from there :)
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Remove the barrel and push a CPHP pellet through it, inspect head for damage, could be the transfer port was modded for more fps causing all of the problems.
My first Prod was used and the guy I got it from said it shot great.. NOT. I disassembled the gun and found the rear trigger to end cap screw was loose. fixed that and my groups looked a lot better.
Ok I will try that. I do know that nothing like that was modded with the gun. My father just bought it (new) to plink around with (his first airgun) and barely finished a 250 round tin. then put it back in the box. So I picked it up in near new condition. He is more of a .223 / 7.62 guy so I offered to take it off his hands :).
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Last year I ordered another crosman .22 barrel for my marauder, it grouped a lot worse than yours is, they exchanged it for another at no charge, now I have a good one.
Crosman has been known to have .22 barrel issues for a long time now, you can lurk old threads on various forums and read about it going way back to when the marauder first came out. I wonder what exactly is going wrong with some of them. I know that with that really bad barrel I briefly had in my possession felt too loose pushing a pellet through, and then way too rough and snug at the very last .75" or something, it was all kinds of messed up compared to the barrel my marauder came with and the third one I got.
Does crosman do a 10 yard group with the prod at the factory like the marauder? That test ought to catch really bad barrels and stop guns shipping with them.
I suspect the barrel lottery issue is not fixable for some reason and it's why they started selling them with lothar walther barrels, right now it's just an option but maybe it'll be standard eventually.
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A pellet not on your list that is very accurate out of my p-rod and accurate for many others also is the H&N FTT 14.66. Give them a try.
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Also h/n copper, don’t forget polymag shorts hole in hole @35y
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I think he should just call crosman and get a barrel. It shouldn't be shooting any pellets that bad, something is wrong. That's just 15 yards, it's bb gun accuracy. The barrels aren't expensive, and if it's anything like the marauder, easy to install.
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Last year I ordered another crosman .22 barrel for my marauder, it grouped a lot worse than yours is, they exchanged it for another at no charge, now I have a good one.
Crosman has been known to have .22 barrel issues for a long time now, you can lurk old threads on various forums and read about it going way back to when the marauder first came out. I wonder what exactly is going wrong with some of them. I know that with that really bad barrel I briefly had in my possession felt too loose pushing a pellet through, and then way too rough and snug at the very last .75" or something, it was all kinds of messed up compared to the barrel my marauder came with and the third one I got.
Does crosman do a 10 yard group with the prod at the factory like the marauder? That test ought to catch really bad barrels and stop guns shipping with them.
I suspect the barrel lottery issue is not fixable for some reason and it's why they started selling them with lothar walther barrels, right now it's just an option but maybe it'll be standard eventually.
Nah... they have moved barrel production in house now and doing a better job of it... they now ream the DOM tube to final dimension pre buttoning...but... they still do not know what a leade is... I suggested to Crosman Engineer that they change tooling a touch to fix that... he said he would bring it up with the tooling guys...They are listening and acknowledging us... makes me hopeful...
one of the main problems with the old barrels was that some were oversize and on some the crown cutter would wipe out rifling...
they are now making Barrels in house... not perfect but getting much better... I picked up a Maximus it had a slightly mis-cut chamber... but once I fixed that it stacks CPHP and it is very common for them to like them... they are much tighter than the old Disco barrels...
so yeah in the mean time check your chamber and leade also.. ;)
your barrel may be pre in house and I do not know if they have also moved to in house barrels for the Prods yet...
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Last year I ordered another crosman .22 barrel for my marauder, it grouped a lot worse than yours is, they exchanged it for another at no charge, now I have a good one.
Crosman has been known to have .22 barrel issues for a long time now, you can lurk old threads on various forums and read about it going way back to when the marauder first came out. I wonder what exactly is going wrong with some of them. I know that with that really bad barrel I briefly had in my possession felt too loose pushing a pellet through, and then way too rough and snug at the very last .75" or something, it was all kinds of messed up compared to the barrel my marauder came with and the third one I got.
Does crosman do a 10 yard group with the prod at the factory like the marauder? That test ought to catch really bad barrels and stop guns shipping with them.
I suspect the barrel lottery issue is not fixable for some reason and it's why they started selling them with lothar walther barrels, right now it's just an option but maybe it'll be standard eventually.
Nah... they have moved barrel production in house now and doing a better job of it... they now ream the DOM tube to final dimension pre buttoning...but... they still do not know what a leade is... I suggested to Crosman Engineer that they change tooling a touch to fix that... he said he would bring it up with the tooling guys...They are listening and acknowledging us... makes me hopeful...
one of the main problems with the old barrels was that some were oversize and on some the crown cutter would wipe out rifling...
they are now making Barrels in house... not perfect but getting much better... I picked up a Maximus it had a slightly mis-cut chamber... but once I fixed that it stacks CPHP and it is very common for them to like them... they are much tighter than the old Disco barrels...
so yeah in the mean time check your chamber and leade also.. ;)
your barrel may be pre in house and I do not know if they have also moved to in house barrels for the Prods yet...
Good to hear. You sure it's all barrels and not just lothar walther barrels?
I got my .22 marauder last summer after it was said crosman improved their barrels, maybe this is what you're talking about. Initial barrel the gun came with grouped JSB 18.13's very well, but showed so much promise with the 14.3 domes which I'd prefer to shoot due to price, same POI as the really cheap walmart CPHPs, and the durability (JSBs get bent easily in shipping). It would throw fliers with the domes on a semi regular basis, so I ordered a second barrel, and it was the horrible one. 2" and bigger at 25 yards, massive horizontal stringing. They exchanged the bad one for the one I currently have in my marauder. It shoots premier domes quite well which is what I wanted. I've gotten some .5" groups at 50 yards but I want it to do that really reliably, I feel like I may be close.
Maybe that second barrel was part of their old batch? Not sure. Pellets pushed through that barrel would actually be damaged, you'd get lead shavings. Both the first and third barrel feel pretty loose pushing a pellet through until you get to the choke and show uneven rifling grooves on the head of the pellet even though they are both capable of good accuracy.
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well I used 2260 and disco barrel for my small fleet of 13xx and 13xx Hybrid pumpers...one had the rifling damage and I could have sent it back... But I had planned on cutting it down to 22 " any ways... there have been other flaws like burrs at the transfer port... a weird bore that looked like the button had been pulled thru twice... shallow seam/deep scratch in bore parallel to direction of travel...
well to shorten the story all needed a leade some worse than others... but worked on em and each of my pumpers can do .75" at 30 yards some .5"... and that is still with a plastic barrel band... they do have steel breech tho...
The L.W. Barrel have and always will be made by L.W. ... I suspect that L.W. also machines to spec/application for Crosman rather than just selling Blanks..
The .25 Mrod Barrels are made by Green Mountain I hope they continue to do so... they are good to very good barrels... But guess what no leade and that is both of mine... both did not need the work to send the 25.4 grain pretty much moa @ 50 yards in good conditions... cudas an H&N FTT did well also
one Did not like the Benji domes at all Cudas were sub 1.5 moa... gave it about a 1* leade for the cast 40g BBT and the 27g Benji are almost as good as the JSB...
the other I am keeping pellet oriented and it almost tolerated the Benji pellets... this barrel got about a 45* leade using tapered dowel and wet dry... mostly .75 ish at 50 with them now...
I think the Chinese springer/rams will continue to have Chinese barrels... oh I made a 1325 pumper using a XL 725 Barrel and 2100 b pump... the two 725 barrels I have had very rough bores grabbed on a pellet all the way thru but no tight spots... Fire lapped one have not used the other... before fire lapping was pretty accurate with H&N 19g at ~650 fps the 25.4 kings were accurate also...
So point is most barrels do respond to some tuning but some will not but I have been lucky so far...most have been turned good and a few very good... and not super pellet picky...
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Death_By_Air
I had a similar problem about a year and a half ago. Did every home fix that didn't require a lathe, because I bought it used. NO HELP. Took the barrel off and inspected it after a re-crown and lapping. Put a strong light at the bottom end of the loose barrel and looked into it with a magnifling glass from the crowned end. Slow rotation at a slight angle allowed me to see deep chatter marks (from the tooling) in the grooves about 3 inches from the end. No way to change that!
Ordered a new barrel from Crosman, on my dime. Did the same work to it as the first one, clean & polish leade, open & smooth transfer port, re-crown and lapped. Shoots one hole groups at 25 yards. I love the gun, its tuned to shoot in the mid 850 fps range.
Don't give up. Pull your barrel off and inspect it very closely with magnification if possible. Shine light in from the bottom, not the top. Might get a sympathetic person at Crosman that will send you a new barrel. If not, just buy one. Makes all the difference in the world. Good luck.
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Tear it down, look for obvious stuff, order a new LW or crosman barrel, put it back together it's pretty easy to work on. Lots of stuff on utube, and lots of help here. ( maybe too much help). Lol
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A pellet not on your list that is very accurate out of my p-rod and accurate for many others also is the H&N FTT 14.66. Give them a try.
Haha thats actually the first tin I shot through it! The copper ones right? It grouped "ok" which is why I bought all the other tins I listed above as a place to start testing thinking it was just those it didnt like. But I put the whole tin through hit already lol.
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Thanks for the info K.O.
Interesting stuff.
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Tear it down, look for obvious stuff, order a new LW or crosman barrel, put it back together it's pretty easy to work on. Lots of stuff on utube, and lots of help here. ( maybe too much help). Lol
I dont have any equipment to do any modifications to it, recrown, etc. :(
A LW barrel would be sweet! Any sights you guys know of that sell one fitted for the Prod? I see they sell some on the crosman site but they are for the 13xx or marauder rifle. Are they interchangeable? seems like I remember the Prod having some indentions near the real or am I wrong?
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DBA a recrown costs like less than a dollar. It’s literally one round head brass screw chucked in a drill. If you don’t have access to any polishing compound gritty toothpaste can work. It’s worth a try and if it doesn’t work at least you can practice and it won’t make it worse or ruin a good barrel.
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DBA
Go here and read the info, so easy a caveman can do it, LoL
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=130555 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=130555)
Hth's,
Tia,
Don
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Make sure all your barrel to receiver fasteners are snug and remove the barrel band. Just something that worked for me once or twice on rifles.
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If you can’t find any of the flaws listed in Nervoustriggers thread, just order another barrel from Crosman. They are so cheap that even a caveman can afford one.
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A pellet not on your list that is very accurate out of my p-rod and accurate for many others also is the H&N FTT 14.66. Give them a try.
Haha thats actually the first tin I shot through it! The copper ones right? It grouped "ok" which is why I bought all the other tins I listed above as a place to start testing thinking it was just those it didnt like. But I put the whole tin through hit already lol.
No. not the copper ones.
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Jim @ wicked air rifles has barrels for the Prod & they are accurate. :D
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Jim @ wicked air rifles has barrels for the Prod & they are accurate. :D
I am not sure he is doing them any more. I would get a new Crosman barrel. I had to cut mine back before I could crown it. Mine much preferrs the 5.54 head size, but strangely likes the CPHP's, but not the domes?? I "need" to order some stuff from Crosman and a Prod barrel will be on the list. I have a CS 2240 with 14.5lw barrel, so I should be able to order another LW barrel. That would be ideal. I bought the cutter for the Oring groove and the rest is fairly straight forward.
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Whate is (leade)?
well I used 2260 and disco barrel for my small fleet of 13xx and 13xx Hybrid pumpers...one had the rifling damage and I could have sent it back... But I had planned on cutting it down to 22 " any ways... there have been other flaws like burrs at the transfer port... a weird bore that looked like the button had been pulled thru twice... shallow seam/deep scratch in bore parallel to direction of travel...
well to shorten the story all needed a leade some worse than others... but worked on em and each of my pumpers can do .75" at 30 yards some .5"... and that is still with a plastic barrel band... they do have steel breech tho...
The L.W. Barrel have and always will be made by L.W. ... I suspect that L.W. also machines to spec/application for Crosman rather than just selling Blanks..
The .25 Mrod Barrels are made by Green Mountain I hope they continue to do so... they are good to very good barrels... But guess what no leade and that is both of mine... both did not need the work to send the 25.4 grain pretty much moa @ 50 yards in good conditions... cudas an H&N FTT did well also
one Did not like the Benji domes at all Cudas were sub 1.5 moa... gave it about a 1* leade for the cast 40g BBT and the 27g Benji are almost as good as the JSB...
the other I am keeping pellet oriented and it almost tolerated the Benji pellets... this barrel got about a 45* leade using tapered dowel and wet dry... mostly .75 ish at 50 with them now...
I think the Chinese springer/rams will continue to have Chinese barrels... oh I made a 1325 pumper using a XL 725 Barrel and 2100 b pump... the two 725 barrels I have had very rough bores grabbed on a pellet all the way thru but no tight spots... Fire lapped one have not used the other... before fire lapping was pretty accurate with H&N 19g at ~650 fps the 25.4 kings were accurate also...
So point is most barrels do respond to some tuning but some will not but I have been lucky so far...most have been turned good and a few very good... and not super pellet picky...
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Had hoped they got a handle on the barrels....have been fewer complaints like yours in the last years.Was a common complaint when they first came out (somthing like middle 2011?).
Have one of those early P-Rods. BArrel was roughand over choked (seemed to be the common problem 7-8 years ago). Actually world shoot a couple of pellets quite well for 30-35 shots...groups getting a bit larger and larger groups as the rough barrel collected lead.
MIght be other issues causing the poor showing...and I'd check all the usual suspects (leaks,loose barrel-breech attachement, odd side pressures on the shroud, any sight of clipping, and some chronograph readings to be sure it's consitent in launch speeds.