GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: buellm2 on May 06, 2019, 12:51:42 PM
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I read with great interest many comments about testing different pellets to find the most accurate with a particular gun. I'm assuming much of this accuracy testing is done with a rifle, optical sights and from a stable rest. All most all of my shooting (including PBs) is done offhand with open sighted pistols at either 30 or 50 feet. I'm oldish and shakey with bad eyes and I'm pretty pleased when I shoot a 2" group. I'm not convinced that any particular pellet will make a big difference so I shoot whatever is cheapest at Walmart. Maybe someday when I'm feeling wealthier I'll buy some fancy target pellets. Maybe I'll be able to shoot a 1" group offhand at 50 feet. LOL, Maybe not.
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I read with great interest many comments about testing different pellets to find the most accurate with a particular gun. I'm assuming much of this accuracy testing is done with a rifle, optical sights and from a stable rest. All most all of my shooting (including PBs) is done offhand with open sighted pistols at either 30 or 50 feet. I'm oldish and shakey with bad eyes and I'm pretty pleased when I shoot a 2" group. I'm not convinced that any particular pellet will make a big difference so I shoot whatever is cheapest at Walmart. Maybe someday when I'm feeling wealthier I'll buy some fancy target pellets. Maybe I'll be able to shoot a 1" group offhand at 50 feet. LOL, Maybe not.
Yip, match the ammo to the task. I can hit a pie plate at 30 yards with about anything. Hitting a gnat in the butt at 30 yards takes a better quality pellet. ;D
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I read with great interest many comments about testing different pellets to find the most accurate with a particular gun. I'm assuming much of this accuracy testing is done with a rifle, optical sights and from a stable rest. All most all of my shooting (including PBs) is done offhand with open sighted pistols at either 30 or 50 feet. I'm oldish and shakey with bad eyes and I'm pretty pleased when I shoot a 2" group. I'm not convinced that any particular pellet will make a big difference so I shoot whatever is cheapest at Walmart. Maybe someday when I'm feeling wealthier I'll buy some fancy target pellets. Maybe I'll be able to shoot a 1" group offhand at 50 feet. LOL, Maybe not.
Well......from my .177 Beeman R9 I shot a few 50 yard groups using a scope while sitting on a bucket resting the gun on cross sticks and here is the result.........
Notice the die lot marked and dated CPL group from the 1250 count box in the upper left hand corner of the target........
(https://i.imgur.com/lRt2vjbl.jpg)
Pellets even make a difference at the shorter 18 yard lane I shoot upstairs using a scope and sitting on a bucket and sticks. The pellets were 1250 count boxed Die "A" CPLs and cheap Crosman Destroyers that only seemed good at destroying the GROUP! ...........
(https://i.imgur.com/IzGChR5l.jpg)
More recently I was testing the 8.4 grain Air Arms domes and a new home tune based on an ARH Hornet spring (again upstairs at 54 feet) while sitting on a bucket resting the gun on cross sticks and shot this 5 shot group using my .177 HW95 break barrel.........
(https://i.imgur.com/6jbM8Jwl.jpg)
Using the same .177 HW95 break barrel and Die "B" CPLs I shot this "bucket and sticks" 5 shot group........
(https://i.imgur.com/Lgs7wrAl.jpg)
Anywhoo....if I WERE shooting offhand I wouldn't have a clue which pellet was most accurate, even at 18 yards (54 feet).
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I've done blind random comparisons. There are two big factors.
First is pellet diameter. The best shooting pellets tend to be ones that are just tight enough to engage the rifling well. Too tight and they seem to suffer from friction issues. Too loose and they don't reliably engage the rifling. Most of the better manufactures make a couple different sizes. RWS that I've measured come in 4.42 or 4.38. My Gamo rifles like the RWS 4.38 such as the Superdome or the Basic Match. The Hobby Match is 4.42, where the Basic Match is 4.38.
Second is pellet consistency. I've measured the crosman pelets in the tin and they are all over the place. That's actually how I did my blind tests. I measured and separated crosmans by size. Very low quality control there. There was a spread from about 4.36-4.44. If you gun likes them loose and every fifth pellet is tight, you're just not going to get consistent results unless you measure them and only use the ones your gun likes.....OR.... just buy higher quality consistently sized pellets (like RWS). I have heard that the Boxed Crosman pellets are consistent but I have not confirmed this. If you're worried about weight, just know that consistency is consistency, if they are consistent on size, they are going to be consistent on weight as well.
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Absolutely it matters, you can shoot a good pellet poorly but you can't shoot a bad pellet well. Meaning one that is matched to your gun.
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I read with great interest many comments about testing different pellets to find the most accurate with a particular gun. I'm assuming much of this accuracy testing is done with a rifle, optical sights and from a stable rest. All most all of my shooting (including PBs) is done offhand with open sighted pistols at either 30 or 50 feet. I'm oldish and shakey with bad eyes and I'm pretty pleased when I shoot a 2" group. I'm not convinced that any particular pellet will make a big difference so I shoot whatever is cheapest at Walmart. Maybe someday when I'm feeling wealthier I'll buy some fancy target pellets. Maybe I'll be able to shoot a 1" group offhand at 50 feet. LOL, Maybe not.
You're right. For you, it doesn't matter. You could be throwing rocks down range. For those us us with higher standards, pellets do matter.
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I read with great interest many comments about testing different pellets to find the most accurate with a particular gun. I'm assuming much of this accuracy testing is done with a rifle, optical sights and from a stable rest. All most all of my shooting (including PBs) is done offhand with open sighted pistols at either 30 or 50 feet. I'm oldish and shakey with bad eyes and I'm pretty pleased when I shoot a 2" group. I'm not convinced that any particular pellet will make a big difference so I shoot whatever is cheapest at Walmart. Maybe someday when I'm feeling wealthier I'll buy some fancy target pellets. Maybe I'll be able to shoot a 1" group offhand at 50 feet. LOL, Maybe not.
My P-17, a $30 pellet pistol on a pricey day, still prefers good pellets. Same goes for my PP700 PCP pistol. both guns shoot most pellets well, but when I want precision, I feed them the best pellets. Not the most-expensive, mind you. My P-17 loves Crosman Premiere domes. the PP700 usually dictates something heavier, but CP Domes in the brown box are the 4th best pellet and the different from #2 to #4 could just be my cross-eye dominant shaky hands self.
I also spend time to find the most accurate pellet in each airgun for 2 reasons: chrony testing (to establish a baseline and track if performance drops off indicating impending failure) and... If ima shoot a critter, it deserves the most accurate shot I can make. IE: if I am killing something I intend to take only one shot.
Now for plinking and chasing cans, I got some pellets that are stinker in every gun. Crosman Destroyers are the perfect example. I can shoot them more accurately in my flatband slingshot than I can with my P-17.
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I've done blind random comparisons. There are two big factors.
First is pellet diameter. The best shooting pellets tend to be ones that are just tight enough to engage the rifling well. Too tight and they seem to suffer from friction issues. Too loose and they don't reliably engage the rifling. Most of the better manufactures make a couple different sizes. RWS that I've measured come in 4.42 or 4.38. My Gamo rifles like the RWS 4.38 such as the Superdome or the Basic Match. The Hobby Match is 4.42, where the Basic Match is 4.38.
Second is pellet consistency. I've measured the crosman pelets in the tin and they are all over the place. That's actually how I did my blind tests. I measured and separated crosmans by size. Very low quality control there. There was a spread from about 4.36-4.44. If you gun likes them loose and every fifth pellet is tight, you're just not going to get consistent results unless you measure them and only use the ones your gun likes.....OR.... just buy higher quality consistently sized pellets (like RWS). I have heard that the Boxed Crosman pellets are consistent but I have not confirmed this. If you're worried about weight, just know that consistency is consistency, if they are consistent on size, they are going to be consistent on weight as well.
A few "personal opinion" comments..........
"First is pellet diameter."
LOL...therein is the rub since I've found that pellet head diameters vary greatly, even in the same tin be they JSB Exacts or H&N FTTs. Matter of fact, I don't know why JSB or H&N even mark the pellet tins because I've found pellet heads from a tin labeled 4.50mm that were larger than pellet heads from tins marked 4.52mm (and visa versa).........
JSB Exacts before and after sorting...........
(https://i.imgur.com/5vGMBDxl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/udeSRarl.jpg)
H&N FTTs before and after sorting........
(https://i.imgur.com/znWeJ5Bl.png)(https://i.imgur.com/f1F71oPl.jpg)
While the Crosman Premier pellet heads "from the tin and mixed dies" tend to be undersized and really variable, I found the .177 Crosman Premiers from the 1250 count die lot marked and dated boxes to be very consistent. Here are a few CPLs taken directly from the box at random showing that they were very consistent........
(https://i.imgur.com/0i1r7Fyl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/qbrnYqjl.jpg)
The issue with the boxed CPLs is that they have rather large pellet heads which can give "sore loading finger" with my tight leade HW95 after a couple hundred shots.
"Too tight and they seem to suffer from friction issues."
Regardless of the "sore finger tight fit" in the HW95, they were just as accurate when they were shot from my .177 R9 which has a looser leade. My personal theory is that as long as the pellet head is large enough to be sized when pressing into the leade it really doesn't matter very much what the head size is "pellet to pellet" because every pellet shot will be the identical size.
"Too loose and they don't reliably engage the rifling."
Yep, for sure! The main reason I stopped shooting the JSB Exacts and H&N FTTs from my "looser leade" R9 was the fact that a "loose fitter" will probably be a flier out of the group.
"you're just not going to get consistent results unless you measure them and only use the ones your gun likes"
As mentioned, as long as all the pellets being shot have heads large enough to be "sized" when pressing into the leade, all pellets shot will be the same size when they start down the tube.
"just buy higher quality consistently sized pellets (like RWS)"
I've never measured the head sizes of RWS pellets, however the SuperDomes I tested tended to have a "3 or4 in and 1 or 2 out" of the group so I stopped using them. As mentioned previously, buying "high quality" (and pricey compared to Crosman from the tins) doesn't guarantee consistent pellets, even from the same tin.
"I measured and separated crosmans by size. Very low quality control there. There was a spread from about 4.36-4.44."
Not so much a matter of "quality control" but the fact that the "cheap CPs from the tin" are packaged as the come from an assortment of dies. I don't know this to be true but I do wonder if the "tinned CPs" are swaged with old dies that "wore out of spec".
"if they are consistent on size, they are going to be consistent on weight as well."
I don't know if that is true or not because pellet swaging usually starts with "precision weighed slugs" (or balls). If the die is inconsistent the weight of the "slug or ball" isn't affected. Here are a few supposedly 4.52mm JSB Exacts that were "all over the place" in both head size and weight..........
(https://i.imgur.com/qYM2I1il.jpg)
Still, for a weight variation of 8.22gr to 8.66gr which is a .44gr variation (less that 1/2 grain) I doubt that I'd notice a difference on paper with my "sitting on a bucket resting the gun of cross sticks" shooting style.
I also weighed (3) 1250 count boxes of die "B" CPLs and the variation was mentioned above the boxed 7.9 grain CPLs was from 7.80gr to 8.16 grain for a variation of only .36 grain over 3700ish pellets. If I didn't include the 34pellets that were "under 7.90 grain and over 8.14 grain" (plus the 3 with squished skirts) the variation would be .24 grain for the remaining 3713ish pellets.
(https://i.imgur.com/6B1YvwZl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/bJk6B8Vl.jpg)
Even with the few cheap Winchester pellets from Tractor Supply I weighed the variation was was less than 1/8 grain......
(https://i.imgur.com/J04yV2Ml.jpg)
LOL.....concerning pellet weight, I decided that sorting pellets by weight to be a waste of time with my shooting skills!
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cool. we might argue, but I like your work and we seem to mostly agree.
also think I wrote my numbers wrong. It's gotta be 4.48 and 4.52, been a long time.
I suffer from CRS.
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I don't question the importance of matching pellet to gun when shooting rifles with optical sights from a rest. I've seen lots of pictures of groups shot with different pellets showing different levels of accuracy using scoped rifles from a rest. I haven't seen lots of pictures of groups shot off hand with pistols that show different levels of accuracy with different pellets. I'm sure the accuracy difference is there but how significant do shooters here find it compared to all the other variables when shooting pistols off hand?
I'm quite new to the world of air pistols and I have found it to be way more enjoyable than I imagined. So relaxing and peaceful compared to PBs. When I gather up a little ambition maybe I'll do some focused testing with different pellets. From a rest position.
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I listen to the rifle when it fires and watch downrange for the landing. I don't have any rifles that are picky about what pellets I use, but the CPs @10.5 grains works well in all my .177s.
I would think the heaviest pellet to launch is the easiest on the springer.
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I listen to the rifle when it fires and watch downrange for the landing. I don't have any rifles that are picky about what pellets I use, but the CPs @10.5 grains works well in all my .177s.
I would think the heaviest pellet to launch is the easiest on the springer.
"heaviest pellet to launch is the easiest on the springer."
If you're speaking of pellet weight vs spring life then my experience is quite the opposite.
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Absolutely it matters, you can shoot a good pellet poorly but you can't shoot a bad pellet well. Meaning one that is matched to your gun.
This sums it all up with 1 more recommendation; How will you know which pellet shoots best unless testing is off a bench/rest under controlled conditions & shooting techniques are as they should be? All of my shots are off hand in the field which I am terrible at, but the bench sessions give you the added confidence needed to make the shot.
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I read with great interest many comments about testing different pellets to find the most accurate with a particular gun. I'm assuming much of this accuracy testing is done with a rifle, optical sights and from a stable rest. All most all of my shooting (including PBs) is done offhand with open sighted pistols at either 30 or 50 feet. I'm oldish and shakey with bad eyes and I'm pretty pleased when I shoot a 2" group. I'm not convinced that any particular pellet will make a big difference so I shoot whatever is cheapest at Walmart. Maybe someday when I'm feeling wealthier I'll buy some fancy target pellets. Maybe I'll be able to shoot a 1" group offhand at 50 feet. LOL, Maybe not.
On those distances and target size, offhand - iron sight, only thing you would notice with premium match grade pellets is less flyers. Unless you are skilled competition shooter using competition rifle/pistol.
Difference will become more notable as distance is increasing (long range shooting) and target size get smaller (field target).
When reaching extremes, trying to shoot 1 MOA target at >50% max range, everything play major role: shape, diameter, weight, lenght, cleanless and surface smothness, balance... all.
And groups are not the only parameter that metter: but ballistics too: MV and ES, BC, stability... You can get excellent results with one pellet at certain weather conditions, but as soon as conditions are changed, you get the shotgun.
For 30-50 feet offhand - iron sight shooting, target size 6 - 12 MOA, use whatever you like.
Up to 50yd, I am using pellets directly from tin too. Yes, sorted pellets have less flyers and smaller groups, but with those from tin I already shoot any target placed on range.
Competition shooting change things.
Field target, one shot on small target change things.
Long range change things dramatically.
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This past winter I really got into buying the old vintage Crosman 150's and really had a lot of fun throughout the winter (and still on rainy days) shooting them. Last year my latest pellet mold purchase was my
NOE 217-20-RF mold and I had cast a bunch of them but hadn't tried them in any rifles yet but the 19.6 grain pellets that I'm casting from it were a steady diet for my 150's throughout the winter. Finally after that long drawn out winter I was able to do some woods walking with my latest two purchases which are the ATI Liberty and ATI Freedom and both guns seem to love the same pellets. It ended up being a win win situation
the way I look at it. Unfortunately NOE is now out of these molds and I don't know when they'll be making more
I don't sell pellets because I'm busy enough casting my own, besides I think that would take all the fun out of casting if I was doing it all the time.
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=153088.0;attach=270127;image)
NOE does have a forum and if you'd like to try one of their molds I recommend you post there leaving a message as a guest in this part of the NOE Forums : http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/board,17.0.html (http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/board,17.0.html)
NOE is out of the 22 cal pellet molds right now, another super great mold is the 217-24-RF mold for a longer pellet that's extremely accurate from my Airmax Dominator.
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You can get excellent results with one pellet at certain weather conditions, but as soon as conditions are changed, you get the shotgun.
That's the only explanation I have for my .25 cal Dominator shooting nice groups with Jsb exact 25.39gr and then, the next day, I'm lucky if the pellets hit the pellet trap. Yesterday, I got so fed up with the shotgun. I grabbed a tin of GTOs and suddenly I'm shooting nice neat groups again. Rifle ruled out, shooter ruled out, pellets found guilty!
"heaviest pellet to launch is the easiest on the springer."
If you're speaking of pellet weight vs spring life then my experience is quite the opposite.
That is very interesting. I also have a notion that lighter pellets leave the barrel sooner and thereby are less disturbed by recoil than heavier pellets. So, lighter pellets stay on poa better. At least that is what my novice experience is leading me to think and yesterday's shooting results certainly supported the notion. So, if lighter pellets are easier on the spring and are more accurate, then I'm really liking Predator GTOs in my .25cal Dominator.
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… I'm sure the accuracy difference is there but how significant do shooters here find it compared to all the other variables when shooting pistols off hand?
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I find it the most important part. I used my PP700 for pesting, hunting, plinking, and hornet-splatting. Despite having a bunch of pellets shoot very well, I still gravitate toward the most-accurate pellets when I have living targets. Besides, all my pistols (a 10" barrel 2240, the PP700, and the P-17) all deserve the best pellets because they all shoot worthy of them.
Note about my P-17 when splatting hornets- the wadcutters don't go through my shed :) It helps they're the cheapest, too.
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How long does an HW50 and R7 last shooting light v heavy pellets?
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How long does an HW50 and R7 last shooting light v heavy pellets?
Don't know about the "HW50 vs R7".
When my brother was shooting .177 10.5 grain Crosman Premiers from his Beeman R9 I would replace a good aftermarket spring every other season. He shot the "heavies" because they were exceptionally accurate for him and exhibited more resistance to wind drift than the 7.9 grain CPL. He could angle a CPH "long ways" through a tree squirrel to put the pellet through the vitals, however he had to be more careful with shot placement because the 7.9 grain pellet wouldn't penetrate through a squirrel "long ways". Here is a target he shot at 50 yards using CPHs........
(https://i.imgur.com/QDfRViZl.jpg)
After shooting the CPHs for several years he found that the flatter trajectory of the lighter 7.9 grain CPL trumped the greater penetration and wind resistance of the CPH because it was a lot easier to "guestimate" the proper holdover past the zero distance of a flatter shooting pellet. After he switched to the 7.9 grain pellet I replaced one aftermarket spring, however that spring spent half it's "life" shooting "heavies. The replacement spring was never replaced before I moved to North Carolina a few years later so it appears that shooting 10.5ers cut the spring life in half.
I really don't know how "heavies vs lights" affect the weaker HW50 and R7 but I can't imagine that there wouldn't be a similar difference.
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buellm2, a comment from an airgun shooter called my attention .. He would be "happy as a dog with two tails" if he could accomplish "x/y" (accuracy/distance). Then, maybe my most important landmark in the learning curve was when, according to my gear.., I established 'my needs' to stay - enjoying - the game.
So, I would be very careful with a potential trap .. "When I gather up a little ambition maybe I'll do some focused testing.. ".
Maybe you should stay with the great actual value "..I'm pretty pleased..", "..to be way more enjoyable than I imagined. So relaxing and peaceful.."
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If you don't test to see which pellet shoot the best with which airgun....you would never know what went wrong with that bad shooting session....bad pellets, bad day, bad airgun?
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If you don't test to see which pellet shoot the best with which airgun....you would never know what went wrong with that bad shooting session....bad pellets, bad day, bad airgun?
Funny thing is that I've had poor accuracy due to "equipment issues", but somehow the scope/gun/pellet fixed itself simply by setting the gun aside for a couple days. LOL.....I simply KNOW that the problems were "equipment related" because my accuracy problems CAN'T be shooter related! :o
For example, I shot a few 5 shot groups a while back at distances from 10 yards to 50 yards while sitting on a bucket resting the gun on cross sticks. I even found that 5 "bad pellets" opened up the 40 yard group because the issue CAN'T be the shooter ::)..........
(https://i.imgur.com/VKezwEZl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/eIKiookl.jpg)
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Everyone has bad days. I'm just back from the range, shot 15-20 pellets and gave up. Not my day today. Clean the barrel, check bolts, and lubricate brake barrel mechanism instead.
Chrono rifle, and go back home.
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All most all of my shooting (including PBs) is done offhand with open sighted pistols at either 30 or 50 feet. I'm oldish and shakey with bad eyes and I'm pretty pleased when I shoot a 2" group.
If that's the case, then it probably doesn't really matter that much. It matters to me because I shoot starlings and sparrows at 25 yards, I need a gun and a pellet that will maximize my chances of good clean kill shots.
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Thank you for these honest statements about having bad shooting days. It helps newbies like me realize how normal we are.
Archie