GTA
Support Equipment For PCP/HPA/CO2 and springers ,rams => Support Equipment For PCP/HPA/CO2 => Topic started by: Fethiyebey on April 15, 2019, 08:52:07 PM
-
A company in Turkey is selling MSA SCBA 6.8 litre Carbon Fibre tank which is marked "Unlimited Life" with a First Test Date of 2010.
I thought that all SCBA had a life of 15 years only
-
Likely going off Turkish standards. DOT in the states is much more strict. Carbon fiber deteriorates over time and the bladder inside does as well. If it was truly unlimited, there would be no inspection dates.
-
Looks to me like that is a CE certified tank.... the standard used by most of the World.... and regardless of what you may have read, that doesn't stand for "Chinese Export", but for "Conformité Européenne", the universal safety standards for the EU.... Perhaps they have revised their lifetime rating on CF tanks, just like the DOT has done, allowing them to be recertified at 15 years for another 15.... The 2010 test date is for a Hydrotest.... SCUBA tanks have an unlimited lifespan, as long as they pass visual inspection each year and a hydrotest every 5 years....
Contrary to popular belief, the DOT doesn't know more than the rest of the World.... ::)
Also, what are you calling the "bladder"?.... CF tanks have a aluminum inner shell, wound with CF, and then overwound with glass fibre as impact protection.... certainly not a flexible bladder, which is what that term would imply....
Bob
-
Carbon fiber deteriorates over time
Where did you get that information? In bicycles (a field I know a lot more about than I do about AGs), carbon fiber (CF) lasts indefinitely as long as there aren't manufacturing defects and you don't abuse it. Hard riding, even jumping CF road bikes, does not constitute abuse. People have put well over 100,000 miles on their CF bikes with no change in feel or behavior, which is why I went to CF after breaking steel frames a couple of times in under 20,000 miles. My CF bike now has 45,000 miles, with no effect, even though I've broken an aluminum crank arm, a pedal, and an aluminum handlebar, mashed teeth on aluminum chainrings and steel cassette cogs in sprints, broken an axle, cracked a lot of aluminum rims, done an awful lot of out-of-the-saddle climbing in the hills, and been in a couple of crashes. Our son was also in an accident ten years ago where he was going 25mph and plowed into a car that turned illegally across his path. Many of the metal parts of the bike were destroyed, and even the front axle was bent by the force of the impact (and he flew over the car and broke his collar bone and nose); but we sent the CF frame and fork to Calfee for their inspection and repair, and they found nothing wrong with the CF; so he's still riding the same bike now but with a lot of replacement components on it. The metals fatigue and break. The CF does not. I used to work in a bike shop back when all frames were steel, and I saw a lot of steel frames and forks that were destroyed much much lower-speed impacts.
-
Bicycle frames aren't being filled with thousands of lbs. of air pressure, and released repeatedly. Many hundreds of times. It's called structural fatigue. ;)
Knife
-
They have to support up to a couple hundred times their weight on rough roads though, with millions of impact cycles. SCBA tanks don't get that kind of abuse. My point was that the metal frames fatigue, and the CF ones don't.
-
Looks to me like that is a CE certified tank.... the standard used by most of the World.... and regardless of what you may have read, that doesn't stand for "Chinese Export", but for "Conformité Européenne", the universal safety standards for the EU.... Perhaps they have revised their lifetime rating on CF tanks, just like the DOT has done, allowing them to be recertified at 15 years for another 15.... The 2010 test date is for a Hydrotest.... SCUBA tanks have an unlimited lifespan, as long as they pass visual inspection each year and a hydrotest every 5 years....
Contrary to popular belief, the DOT doesn't know more than the rest of the World.... ::)
Also, what are you calling the "bladder"?.... CF tanks have a aluminum inner shell, wound with CF, and then overwound with glass fibre as impact protection.... certainly not a flexible bladder, which is what that term would imply....
Bob
European Standards have had the provision for Unlimited Life(or non-limited life as they call them) composite cylinders since at least 2002. These cylinders DO have an unlimited life just like SCUBA tanks.
The cylinder in photo was manufactured 15 years ago (note the 10/05)
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=2ahUKEwiH4syoz9ThAhUPPq0KHU37BlMQFjABegQIABAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gastec.de%2FDownload%2FEN_12245_2002_02.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2rzCwpRdgvEWXi3-xIYY3s (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=2ahUKEwiH4syoz9ThAhUPPq0KHU37BlMQFjABegQIABAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gastec.de%2FDownload%2FEN_12245_2002_02.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2rzCwpRdgvEWXi3-xIYY3s)
-
Looks to me like that is a CE certified tank.... the standard used by most of the World.... and regardless of what you may have read, that doesn't stand for "Chinese Export", but for "Conformité Européenne", the universal safety standards for the EU.... Perhaps they have revised their lifetime rating on CF tanks, just like the DOT has done, allowing them to be recertified at 15 years for another 15.... The 2010 test date is for a Hydrotest.... SCUBA tanks have an unlimited lifespan, as long as they pass visual inspection each year and a hydrotest every 5 years....
Contrary to popular belief, the DOT doesn't know more than the rest of the World.... ::)
Also, what are you calling the "bladder"?.... CF tanks have a aluminum inner shell, wound with CF, and then overwound with glass fibre as impact protection.... certainly not a flexible bladder, which is what that term would imply....
Bob
European Standards have had the provision for Unlimited Life(or non-limited life as they call them) composite cylinders since at least 2002. These cylinders DO have an unlimited life just like SCUBA tanks.
The cylinder in photo was manufactured 15 years ago (note the 10/05)
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=2ahUKEwiH4syoz9ThAhUPPq0KHU37BlMQFjABegQIABAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gastec.de%2FDownload%2FEN_12245_2002_02.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2rzCwpRdgvEWXi3-xIYY3s (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=2ahUKEwiH4syoz9ThAhUPPq0KHU37BlMQFjABegQIABAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gastec.de%2FDownload%2FEN_12245_2002_02.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2rzCwpRdgvEWXi3-xIYY3s)
Thanks Bob and Rich. I had never come across "unlimited life" before. All the ones I have seen before have been 15 years, similar to what you have in the States. Most refill shops here state that they will not fill a tank over 15 years old so might have to be careful if I purchase this.
-
Rich, thanks for that standard, good information I have bookmarked that webpage....
According to that CE standard, a 15 year cylinder is cycled 3,750 times and a 30 year is cycled 7,500 times.... which is exactly what a Luxfer cylinder test cycle is.... That equals 250 cycles per year without leak or burst.... Then they double that number of cycles, and the cylinder is allowed to leak but not burst at the end of that second test.... For the "non-limited" life they are cycled 12,000 times (the equivalent of 48 years at 250 per year)…. The cycles are from the rated pressure (eg. 300 bar) down to less than 10% of that (eg. below 30 bar)…. Since we typically don't allow our cylinders to drop to such low pressure, but refill them from 60% of their rated pressure of more (eg. 180-200 bar) the fatigue life we can expect is MUCH longer.... The more safety margin designed into a tank, the more cycles it can stand, of course....
In addition to the Test pressure to be used for Hydrotesting being marked on the tank, the Burst pressure is specified in the regs. as a mimimum of twice that.... For the cylinder in question, the test pressure is 506 bar, so the burst pressure will be at least 1012 bar (14,674 psi)…. which is over 3 times the fill pressure.... I would have no reservations using a tank made to these regulations, subject to a 5 year Hydrotest regimen.... Whether or not you can get it filled in North America, or even legally transport it, is another question....
The DOT regulations are very much out of date, and certainly out of touch with what the rest of the world is doing.... This makes it more difficult for US companies to compete in the world markets.... but it does insure that items non DOT rated have less access to the US markets.... It is much more about Protectionism than safety, IMO....
Bob
-
This is really good information for backing up and argument which i seem to get into many times with the less informed. I appreciate the time you all take to post the links and information.
-
Carbon fiber deteriorates over time
Where did you get that information? In bicycles (a field I know a lot more about than I do about AGs), carbon fiber (CF) lasts indefinitely as long as there aren't manufacturing defects and you don't abuse it. Hard riding, even jumping CF road bikes, does not constitute abuse. People have put well over 100,000 miles on their CF bikes with no change in feel or behavior, which is why I went to CF after breaking steel frames a couple of times in under 20,000 miles. My CF bike now has 45,000 miles, with no effect, even though I've broken an aluminum crank arm, a pedal, and an aluminum handlebar, mashed teeth on aluminum chainrings and steel cassette cogs in sprints, broken an axle, cracked a lot of aluminum rims, done an awful lot of out-of-the-saddle climbing in the hills, and been in a couple of crashes. Our son was also in an accident ten years ago where he was going 25mph and plowed into a car that turned illegally across his path. Many of the metal parts of the bike were destroyed, and even the front axle was bent by the force of the impact (and he flew over the car and broke his collar bone and nose); but we sent the CF frame and fork to Calfee for their inspection and repair, and they found nothing wrong with the CF; so he's still riding the same bike now but with a lot of replacement components on it. The metals fatigue and break. The CF does not. I used to work in a bike shop back when all frames were steel, and I saw a lot of steel frames and forks that were destroyed much much lower-speed impacts.
The CF used on tanks will indeed deteriorate when exposed to sunlight and high temps. Not all CF is the same with every product out there. I have seen many a CF tank that has gone brittle and cracks at the touch. Most Carbon fiber used for bikes, cars, etc, are metal infused.
-
Looks to me like that is a CE certified tank.... the standard used by most of the World.... and regardless of what you may have read, that doesn't stand for "Chinese Export", but for "Conformité Européenne", the universal safety standards for the EU.... Perhaps they have revised their lifetime rating on CF tanks, just like the DOT has done, allowing them to be recertified at 15 years for another 15.... The 2010 test date is for a Hydrotest.... SCUBA tanks have an unlimited lifespan, as long as they pass visual inspection each year and a hydrotest every 5 years....
Contrary to popular belief, the DOT doesn't know more than the rest of the World.... ::)
Also, what are you calling the "bladder"?.... CF tanks have a aluminum inner shell, wound with CF, and then overwound with glass fibre as impact protection.... certainly not a flexible bladder, which is what that term would imply....
Yes, an AL bladder.
Bob
-
The CF on our tanks is covered in a thick layer of glass fibre…. You will never even SEE the CF layer, if you do, somebody has dropped the tank and caused a huge delamination, or taken an axe to it.... and you should not be using it, regardless of age.... Besides, it is not the CF that deteriorates, but the resin.... Again, the outer protective layer of glass and resin prevents the CF from damage.... There is lots of information about visual inspection of CF wrapped bottles, including that from Luxfer, telling you what conditions are acceptable, what aren't, and even how to repair some of the minor cosmetic problems....
http://static.revgroup.hu/1000/c0b1fc9e1522828963.pdf (http://static.revgroup.hu/1000/c0b1fc9e1522828963.pdf)
I get really tired of all the "Go USA" Fear-Mongering amongst poorly informed airgunners bent on criticizing anything non-US made.... ::) …. Sorry, but you DON'T know everything, there are other smart people in the world too....
Bob
-
The CF on our tanks is covered in a thick layer of glass fibre…. You will never even SEE the CF layer, if you do, somebody has dropped the tank and caused a huge delamination, or taken an axe to it.... and you should not be using it, regardless of age.... Besides, it is not the CF that deteriorates, but the resin.... Again, the outer protective layer of glass and resin prevents the CF from damage.... There is lots of information about visual inspection of CF wrapped bottles, including that from Luxfer, telling you what conditions are acceptable, what aren't, and even how to repair some of the minor cosmetic problems....
http://static.revgroup.hu/1000/c0b1fc9e1522828963.pdf (http://static.revgroup.hu/1000/c0b1fc9e1522828963.pdf)
I get really tired of all the "Go USA" Fear-Mongering amongst poorly informed airgunners bent on criticizing anything non-US made.... ::) …. Sorry, but you DON'T know everything, there are other smart people in the world too....
Bob
Excuse me Bob? A bit uncalled for don’t you think? I have not claimed to know everything, nor will I. If you want to blast me, do it in PM next time. Then we can have an attitude.
-
If I have taken your posts as typical of what I have seen here in the past, and done so mistakenly.... then I apologize....
The classic is the bozos that state that "CE" means "Chinese Export", so was effectively no standard at all.... I've seen that attitude wayyyyyyyyy too much, and that was the reason for my vent.... If a regulatory authority as respected at the EU makes a law allowing unlimited life, providing the tank is built and tested per the law, and that the prescribed visual inspections are done, and a Hydro every 5 years.... why should we dispute that, just because the DOT hasn't got with the times?.... Sorry, I just don't get it, and view that as Protectionism.... JMO, and I won't say any more on the subject in this thread....
BTW, the USA isn't the only country that has antiquated laws.... Bet you guys didn't know that a DOT rating is no good in Canada.... Here it must bear a TC (Transport Canada) approval.... Fortunately, however, CE rated tanks are legal for the same class of use, even though DOT aren't.... Yeah, makes NO sense to me either.... ::)
Bob
-
I get that Bob, I do, and I agree. I am normally very short in my replies and at times, many times, I have to go back and get up to date on things. I think we both have said enough on this subject as well and shall digress.
-
The Carbon Fiber tanks take a BEATING in their original tasks... such as being used in a fire fighter breathing apparatus and underwater diving. They get BEAT around, filled and FULLY emptied over and over again, etc. When out of date, or nearly out of date ones come up for sale on the internet, many look like they have been through a war zone... yet were still working just fine when pulled for being too old.
My tank is babied. A fill can last for months, and it never gets emptied all the way. Very little stretching/contracting going on to wear it out. Am I going to voluntarily cut it in half on it's 15th birthday? H*LL NO. I fill it myself, and am more than comfortable with taking my chances. It was brand new when purchased, and still looks the same with pretty much zero wear.
-
Talk about bashing, If interested, one day take a look at our FDA, and what it does to curtail just about any advancement in medicine and may other products from Eu. Shameful to say the least.
Sadly, our FDA has become an organization more interested in arranged recept of legal, (sorda) bribes from producers than protecting the public.
Making their living by bashing and under the table dealing. GRRRRR!!!
I can't help but wonder if DOT has gone the same way.
-
Soooo....after reading all these responses, I have a couple questions about these SCBAs:
1) to get them shipped out here, they need to be fully empty. This will probably be the only time that they will be empty, so will they be ok for me to use after that initial fill? Or will I need to be concerned about fatigue?
2) I saw some used firefighter SCBAs on ebay. They have anywhere from 2-3 years left on them, so will it be ok to have them drained and then filled when they get here so I can use them?
3) I also came across some SCBA tanks from China. Will these be ok to use? Or are there quality control issues that I should take into consideration/be aware of? Should I steer clear of them or are they acceptable?
4) AoA has great deals on their CF SCBA tanks, and they are willing to ship out here. Should I just stick with them?
-
Fatigue is a cumulative thing.... One cycle from empty to full makes virtually no difference in the strength/life of the tank....
If you are going to need the tank filled commercially, and want to transport it legally, and you live in the USA, get a DOT rated tank.... CE rated tanks are at least as good, just not "legal" in the USA.... Don't buy a tank that isn't either DOT, TC or CE rated....
Bob
-
Got it...thanks! I'm trying to convince myself that a new SCBA, while being the price of another PCP, it will make shooting much less sweaty for the next 15 years.
I'm more or less on board with that...but my mind is also reminding me about how if I can just tough it out, I can use that $600+ towards a .25 Sumatra. Or a big bore. :-[
-
In a recent e-mail conversation with Ray over at Ninja I learned that the outer coating on these tanks is a gel coat similar to a boat. It can crack and craze but this does NOT cause a tank to fail inspection and it CAN be reworked with a new gel coat for a fee to make it look good again and to protect the underlying fiber wrapping.
-
Just as a reminder, Pyramyd Air sells life extended cylinders too.
https://www.pyramydair.com/life-extended-carbon-fiber-tanks (https://www.pyramydair.com/life-extended-carbon-fiber-tanks)
Thanks,
Taso
-
In a recent e-mail conversation with Ray over at Ninja I learned that the outer coating on these tanks is a gel coat similar to a boat. It can crack and craze but this does NOT cause a tank to fail inspection and it CAN be reworked with a new gel coat for a fee to make it look good again and to protect the underlying fiber wrapping.
Ray is a great guy. I stopped by and he gave me a tour of Ninja. He told me the same about the gel coat.
-
Just as a reminder, Pyramyd Air sells life extended cylinders too.
https://www.pyramydair.com/life-extended-carbon-fiber-tanks (https://www.pyramydair.com/life-extended-carbon-fiber-tanks)
Thanks,
Taso
Thanks, Taso. Unfortunately, the shipping PA charges out to me is heartbreaking. For one tin of pellets, they want 65 bucks for shipping. I did ask if they can use USPS to ship out to me, but they told me they only use UPS or FedEx...I can't remember which one.
Shipping a tank? I wouldn't even want to think about the shipping cost. :-\
AoA, however, is much more flexible, bless their hearts. They might just be my primary source for my airgun needs.
-
That's crazy Paul. I know when I was unemployed and selling off my toys USPS shipping was much cheaper to Hawaii, Alaska and U.S. territories versus UPS. I didn't check FedEx back then.
Maybe you can have PA ship to a friend or family member in the continental U. S. and they can forward the item to you. Even that way shipping should still be cheaper via USPS.
Thanks,
Taso
-
It's nuts, I know. UPS and FedEx are roughly the same in terms of shipping. I checked AGD and the shipping for one tin of pellets was something like 68 bucks. :o
I don't have a lot of folks in the states, so I just try to work with what I got. There were several members here who stepped up beautifully, though. They didn't know me from Adam but they offered to send stuff out to me. I am so grateful to each one of them, bless their hearts.
paul
-
You definitely got family on here that would forward stuff on to you. :)
Taso
-
Yes, I have been blessed with having people here help me. 8) 8)
Although a tank is quite the large order. ??? :o ;D
-
In my experience Carbon fiber doesn't fatigue. We had some MT bike handle bars cycle tested on the MTS servo hyd machine in flex mode like it would see while riding. It went a million cycles and never showed any problem which can't be said for the test machine which did break. The amount of flexing was way more than a bike rider could ever do. As has been said, the biggest problem composites have is the resin system being exposed to sun light and heat and the heat I'm talking about is near the boiling point for more than an hour. Heck, I've tested some BMI test coupons at 550f after letting them soak at that temp for 30 min. but CF tank mfg are not going to use BMI as it would be way to expensive. The F-22 is made with the stuff. I know because I'm one of the people who did the material qualification for Lockheed. I guess the gel coat would protect the epoxy resin from UV exposure along with making it look pretty.
-
It's nuts, I know. UPS and FedEx are roughly the same in terms of shipping. I checked AGD and the shipping for one tin of pellets was something like 68 bucks. :o
I don't have a lot of folks in the states, so I just try to work with what I got. There were several members here who stepped up beautifully, though. They didn't know me from Adam but they offered to send stuff out to me. I am so grateful to each one of them, bless their hearts.
paul
Hmm Strange as when I shipped to you the standard rates applied, just had to fill out a declaration form :-\