GTA
Support Equipment For PCP/HPA/CO2 and springers ,rams => Support Equipment For PCP/HPA/CO2 => Topic started by: Sfttailrdr46 on February 28, 2019, 10:17:00 AM
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I purchased this last week 2/22/2019 and received it yesterday. Last night I mounted it to my work bench next to the Freedom 8 compressor and hooked it up. to compressor and SCBA tank then turned on the shop compressor and charged the filter to 3000 psi then opened the tank valve. The filter seems to work because when the F8 shut off at 4500 psi. closed the tank valve then purged the filter the air coming out of the purge valve there was moisture blown off. I also always purge my shop compressor after every use and have set a small fan blowing across the tank.
US 30MPa High Pressure Air Filter, Oil-Water Separator For Air Pump /Air Tank
US 30MPa High Pressure Air Filter, Oil-Water Separator For Air Pump /Air Tank
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Item price: $145.00
Item ID: 113065223448
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That's only a mechanical droplet separator. You still need a desiccant filter! The warm air coming out of the separator is still saturated with moisture, that can condense out on the inside of your guns or tanks.
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I am running in a dehumidified space 20% RH at 70* f worst case. I have a desiccant filter coming in a couple days as a final step. Thus far I have not experienced any indication of moisture in any of my HP tanks or air tubes to date and I have opened and inspected them. I cool the pressure vessel on my shop compressor 1st stage with a fan blowing across the air tank. This is purged after every use and does remove a significant amount of moisture before going to the Freedom 8.
My goal is to make the air as dry as possible before entering the SCBA tanks. I also dry my first stage desiccant filter to 50 microns with an HVAC 2 stage vacuum pump verified with a vacuum gauge.
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Sounds like you have things really well covered!!
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I feel that I need to protect my toys. Even though the basement is unoccupied I keep the dehumidifier running and the heat at 70*f in the summer the dehumidifier runs non stop that way I have no worries about corrosion and moisture deterioration. I have a hygrometer / thermometer right next to my work bench to keep an eye on the humidity. In the summer I have one of those 2 hose 14,500 btu ac units running in the man cave ;D ;D
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Don on my F10 I have the HB small desiccant filter between the Cal compressor and the F10. I recently purchased one of the black hi side filters that was filled with a mixture of charcoal and the white beads but I'll be using only silicon gel beads only in it when I start using it. Heck this winter I haven't even turned on my F10 for about 2 months now because I'm simply using mainly co2 for indoor plinking only. I sure do like that F10 though.
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Don on my F10 I have the HB small desiccant filter between the Cal compressor and the F10. I recently purchased one of the black hi side filters that was filled with a mixture of charcoal and the white beads but I'll be using only silicon gel beads only in it when I start using it. Heck this winter I haven't even turned on my F10 for about 2 months now because I'm simply using mainly co2 for indoor plinking only. I sure do like that F10 though.
Mine is getting used about 1 hr. or a little longer most days except on the Wife's DR appointment days and or too cold and windy to shoot. LOL!!!
I really give a compressor a workout.
I have a hi side filter, but have not installed it. On the compressor low side, I have water/oil separator, water separator, Another reg, with additional water separator, and a large Wilkerson desiccant trap, and finally one more particulate/oil filter. I have seen no water what so ever in the filters since switching to the SB over the Altaros, which sucked water from the compressor as it ran so much and the shop compressor was really hot doing so.
The 60 gal compressor only comes on once if at all in the fill from the SB. So no heat, and no water so far. ;)
Mike
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I am waiting for a new high side desiccant filter to use in line between the tank and the high side water trap. Yesterday I topped off all 3 CF tanks to 4500 psi and there was no signs of moisture from the high side trap when I blew it off after each fill. I think that blowing cool air across the 4 gallon Porter Cable air tank definitely eliminates the majority of the moisture from the air (20% RH @ 70* f) before it hits the low pressure desiccant filter. When I blow down the Porter Cable air tank I am getting a small puddle under the compressor. Right now I am using the old belt and suspenders theory and the high side desiccant filter is just another heavier pair of suspenders (Over Kill ?)
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Don,
While you are trying to do a good job in total with managing water vapor, and will have it fully managed once you get that desiccant in the path, I do want to clear up one thing that is a constant point of misunderstanding for most people: the relative humidity of the ambient air is essentially irrelevant when it comes to making sure that air at 4500 psi is "dry" - it only impacts the amount of water that has to be removed to get there.
Even if you ran and stored that first stage compressor inside a freezer, there would still be more than enough water vapor remaining in the air coming out of that unit to lead to water condensation in your tanks after compression thru the Shoebox (or any other compressor without active water vapor management, for that matter) if you don't take steps to manage it.
It just drives me nuts when people think they are free of any risk of water condensation in their tanks because the "humidity is so low" where they are. At 70 degrees F, even a relative humidity of 1% can lead to enough water vapor in the air to condense out into liquid water when compressed to 4500 psi, after the air charge cools back down to 70F - granted, it is not much water, but it is still there (and what is the lowest RH you have ever seen?).
The details of all this can be found and understood via the information in this link and pdf: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=139845.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=139845.0)
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Alan you are absolutely correct and I agree 100% my goal is to reduce the moisture to the lowest possible level before it reaches the Shoebox which is why I have an in line LP desiccant filter after the Porter Cable in line before the Freedom 8 I also dry the desiccant beads after every fill session. The final piece will be added next week and I will do the Vacuum dry the beads and final element after every use. After my last tank inspection of the Small Guppy tank I feel fairly confident that I have not introduced any moisture to my rifles or tanks. I am just a serious belt and suspenders guy where prevention and safety are concerned.
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Coming to grips that there is moisture that needs to be removed is the first step.
I have seen many people say that since they don't see water there is nothing to worry about. What they don't realize is that when they see water the air is 100% saturated with moisture. What about the air at less than 100% saturation where the moisture isn't visible?
Silica gel on the intake or low pressure side helps and is better than nothing but it's not the best or most effective strategy.
I learned that the best debulking and cost effective removal of the moisture is through condensing out via pressure. It's akin to wringing out a wet sponge. Once the moisture condenses out into liquid it needs to be removed. If you're not removing any moisture before any compression you will have a lot more condensed water to remove. There is a part of Steve Scialli's Daystate compressor review video where he discharges a large amount of condensed moisture from a condensate bleed.
https://youtu.be/vSs0d_nTZNc?t=406 (https://youtu.be/vSs0d_nTZNc?t=406)
and again:
https://youtu.be/vSs0d_nTZNc?t=439 (https://youtu.be/vSs0d_nTZNc?t=439)
This is condensed water squeezed out via pressure. It hasn't gotten to any molecular sieve yet.
The separator Don linked would work in this role. (I am leery of the quality of the components but that's another discussion and has nothing to do with Don) To be most effective the separator would also need a pressure maintaining valve to maintain and limit the hpa to the desired condensing pressure before moving further through the system.
Once the debulking/heavy lifting is done then your molecular sieve filter can remove some of the last remaining moisture. Molecular sieve works better at pressures above 1650 psi but it still has very limited capacity. Once it is saturated it is ineffective. Also molecular sieve is not 100% effective and will not make the output air 100% moisture free. You will still have some remaining moisture at it's output.
Unless your cleaning your hpa cylinders regularly this remaining moisture will accumulate after every fill.
It is this stagnant water that causes corrosion which leads to material failures in our hpa cylinders.
I have removed the dip tubes, water anti siphon tube, from my scba cylinders so that I can invert the tanks and blow out any accumulated water. I don't know how effective that is but it's better than not trying it.
Thanks,
Taso
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I have done that several times and have yet to see any moisture come out of the HP tanks after they have coolled back to room temperature
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Don,
The only way to be absolutely sure is to either send an air sample for testing or get a moisture indicator similar to this:
https://www.augustindustries.com/visual-indicator-ind-mois.asp (https://www.augustindustries.com/visual-indicator-ind-mois.asp)
With this indicating disk:
https://www.augustindustries.com/moisture-indicator-disk-kit-mois.asp?bc=no (https://www.augustindustries.com/moisture-indicator-disk-kit-mois.asp?bc=no)
I have one in my Shoebox setup between my pressure maintaining valve and JB Alpha filter that reads 20% relative humidity for about 5 or 6 30 minute scba cylinder fills that I have done since installation.
Eventually I'd like to add a second moisture indicator after the Alpha filter so that I can see when the molecular sieve has reached capacity and no longer removing moisture so that I can swap in a new molecular sieve cartridge.
Thanks,
Taso
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I have done that several times and have yet to see any moisture come out of the HP tanks after they have coolled back to room temperature
How did you tested that ?
most scuba tanks / valves got a nice safety feature included:
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&biw=1920&bih=940&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=Pbt_XPOhAc_f6QS8s7WACg&q=scuba+tank+valve&oq=scuba+tank+valve&gs_l=img.3..0i19l3j0i8i30i19.107354.108077..108207...0.0..0.84.374.5......0....1..gws-wiz-img.KKrG_3QZ_ms (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&biw=1920&bih=940&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=Pbt_XPOhAc_f6QS8s7WACg&q=scuba+tank+valve&oq=scuba+tank+valve&gs_l=img.3..0i19l3j0i8i30i19.107354.108077..108207...0.0..0.84.374.5......0....1..gws-wiz-img.KKrG_3QZ_ms)
this small pipe prevents water/oil to flow out.
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I have done that several times and have yet to see any moisture come out of the HP tanks after they have coolled back to room temperature
How did you tested that ?
most scuba tanks / valves got a nice safety feature included:
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&biw=1920&bih=940&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=Pbt_XPOhAc_f6QS8s7WACg&q=scuba+tank+valve&oq=scuba+tank+valve&gs_l=img.3..0i19l3j0i8i30i19.107354.108077..108207...0.0..0.84.374.5......0....1..gws-wiz-img.KKrG_3QZ_ms (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&biw=1920&bih=940&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=Pbt_XPOhAc_f6QS8s7WACg&q=scuba+tank+valve&oq=scuba+tank+valve&gs_l=img.3..0i19l3j0i8i30i19.107354.108077..108207...0.0..0.84.374.5......0....1..gws-wiz-img.KKrG_3QZ_ms)
this small pipe prevents water/oil to flow out.
I have Joe B. valve set fill station on all 3 tanks and there is no dip tube since the tanks are not intended for breathable air. So by inverting the tank any moisture would go to the valve assembly then just crack the valves . This would purge any moisture from the tank and indicate a problem
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Sorry, the way I see it, nothing lasts forever. I use the gold filter from China and the black filter from MRodAir on my MKII Extreme. Then I use the smaller tampon filter between my tanks and guns when filling.
Periodic maintenance of my guns is the only way to monitor moisture getting to them. Yearly visual testing will reveal any moisture getting in the tanks.
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Sorry, the way I see it, nothing lasts forever. I use the gold filter from China and the black filter from MRodAir on my MKII Extreme. Then I use the smaller tampon filter between my tanks and guns when filling.
Periodic maintenance of my guns is the only way to monitor moisture getting to them. Yearly visual testing will reveal any moisture getting in the tanks.
Bill I agree 100% and I just did visuals on all three of my tanks back in November. Whenever I take my PCP's apart I inspect the Air Tubes for signs of corrosion and thus far they are all still in good shape with no signs of corrosion inside the pressure tubes. I also did the burnish with silicone grease that has been recommended by several other members here in the forum.
I understand that nothing lasts forever which is why I added a HP mechanical moisture separator after the Freedom 8 and will be adding a final desiccant filter before the tanks . I am really a belt and suspenders guy where safety and protection are concerned.
On my 37 ft Silverton I have four bilge pumps mounted and a last resort set of Y gate set up on both engines to with use the engine water pumps as emergency backup if the bilge pumps cannot keep up.
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Guys
Question for you,
What about having the tanks above the compressor when filling?
All the setups I have seen have the tanks below the compressor,
which would have gravity help more any moisture towards the tanks etc.
I also removed the dip tube, and I store my tanks pointed down hill,
before using, I tip the tank upside down and crack the valve, no moisture ever comes out.
All the air is run from the main supply compressor thru 100' coiled air line, then thru 3 desiccant filters,
then to the SB and to the tanks.
I can see these filters change color, when the #2 inline filter starts to show a color change,
all 3 are resupplied with new blue beads etc.
When I made these filters, the main air supplied from the compressor is piped into the bottom of the filter bowl,
then the air travels up thru the beads in all 3 of the filters, then to the SB compressor.
I also have the other type of desiccant (clay type), but don't know if it is needed, but can be added anywhere needed.
The average air moisture content around here is 10/15 % year around, except when we have wet weather.
Tia,
Don
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Don,
Silica gel is good at removing moisture at high humidity levels and then is less effective at lower humidity levels. I've attached a pic of the performance of the common desiccants. CaO looks like it works best down to 15% relative humidity.
So lets say silica gel reduces moisture to a relative humidity level of 60%. That will still get compressed by the Shoebox.
Molecular sieve dries to about 20% relative humidity but the media has a lower capacity to hold the moisture before it is saturated and relegated ineffective.
So if your relative humidity is 10 - 15% you are already too dry for the desiccants to have any effect.
Thanks,
Taso
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;) ;D Thanks all I'm trying to do is get the air going into the tanks and my AG's as dry as possible without spending $$$$$$ big money on a refrigerated dryer. So far it seems to be working and my final stage before the tanks will be the molecular sieve that is being delivered this Thursday. That will be dried by pulling it down to 50 microns of vacuum with my 7 cfm 2 stage HVAC vacuum pump and micron gauge
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Don,
I'm doing my low pressure moisture debulking with a membrane drier. It will bring the dew point down to -4°F.
A refrigerated drier will reduce down to dew points of approximately 37°F plus use electricity. A membrane dryer doesn't (use electricity) and is cheaper. Do I have your interest yet? ;D
Compression to about 4000 psi will do the next debulking in my system. After that, molecular sieve will remove what it can. That's as dry as I understand how to do lol.
Thanks,
Taso
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Taso
I don't completely understand all this stuff, and attempting to wrap my head around it all,
I have used these desiccant filter since I got my SB, over 18+ months ago and filling my 3 SCBA tanks about twice a month,
the first filter is just starting to show a color change, (just checked), and when not in use, the ends are connected by air line fittings,
so no outside air is available.
I would like to add another filter, from the SB, before the SCBA tanks, which are only filled to 3000/3200 psi,
each time, but not sure which one, I have a concern about any desiccant abrasive getting into the SB and air rifle etc.
Tia,
Don H
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Don,
I have been buying SMC brand filters and have had good luck with them.
https://www.smcpneumatics.com/pdfs/AM_AFF.pdf (https://www.smcpneumatics.com/pdfs/AM_AFF.pdf)
I am not sure what size silica gel particles are. SMC has particle filters that filter to 3 micron, .3 micron and .01 micron.
You can get a new AMD150C from ebay for $69.99. It filters to .01 micron and flows 7 cfm @ 101 psi. The Shoebox compressor only needs .2 cfm to work.
You could add a prefilter but with such low flow needs of the Shoebox the filter element should last forever, unless you're feeding really dusty air to your shop compressor. There are also oil mist filters if your shop compressor isn't oil free.
Thanks,
Taso
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Don,
I have been buying SMC brand filters and have had good luck with them.
https://www.smcpneumatics.com/pdfs/AM_AFF.pdf (https://www.smcpneumatics.com/pdfs/AM_AFF.pdf)
I am not sure what size silica gel particles are. SMC has particle filters that filter to 3 micron, .3 micron and .01 micron.
You can get a new AMD150C from ebay for $69.99. It filters to .01 micron and flows 7 cfm @ 101 psi. The Shoebox compressor only needs .2 cfm to work.
You could add a prefilter but with such low flow needs of the Shoebox the filter element should last forever, unless you're feeding really dusty air to your shop compressor. There are also oil mist filters if your shop compressor isn't oil free.
Thanks,
Taso
I was looking at the membrane filter earlier this morning as a low pressure pre filter aftel my Porter Cable compressor just was not sure how well they would work.
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Don,
I forgot to mention, I do use gravity like you to get rid of accumulated water. I have a couple traps and bleed valves to do so. If you don't remove the accumulated water it will eventually make it to your bottles or guns. Also you don't want liquid water coming in contact with molecular sieve because it will cause an exothermic reaction (creates a lot of heat) and will make your compressed air expand and go over pressure.
Back to what we were talking about:
This is the membrane drier I am using:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-SMC-IDG1-N02-Membrane-Air-Dryer-1-4-NPT-10-LPM-Air-Flow-20-C-D-P/123450891654?hash=item1cbe3f1d86%3Ag%3AY4AAAOSwRIFb0ooU&LH_ItemCondition=3 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-SMC-IDG1-N02-Membrane-Air-Dryer-1-4-NPT-10-LPM-Air-Flow-20-C-D-P/123450891654?hash=item1cbe3f1d86%3Ag%3AY4AAAOSwRIFb0ooU&LH_ItemCondition=3)
I think I paid around $90 for mine. More information about them can be found here:
https://www.smcpneumatics.com/pdfs/IDG.pdf (https://www.smcpneumatics.com/pdfs/IDG.pdf)
They do need oil and particulate pre filtration so they don't become contaminated and stop working.
Here is the thread I created via trial and error for my Shoebox setup and for my learning about pressure maintaining valves:
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=120744.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=120744.0)
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=142737.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=142737.0)
Thanks,
Taso