GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Big Bore AirGun Gate => Topic started by: Kinetic45^ on February 18, 2019, 08:53:10 PM
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I want to combine our knowledge on what bullets shoot great, which just OK and those that do poorly in the .357 Slayer. {And of course, the info might also be of interest to owners of other .357 rifles}
I've sent bullets to several Slayer owners and asked them to test shoot and report back to us.
So I thought it was time to start the thread where they can.
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This one is a good lightweight https://leeprecision.com/mold-dc-358-105-swc.html
Not sure how it would shoot from the Slayer but performs great out to 80 yards in a 1:16” twist .348”/.357” TJ’s barrel at 900 fps .
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Great topic. It would be good to include the speeds and diameters, too.
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Agree, good job on starting up the conversation about Slayers and slugs. If possible have 50 & 100 groups, I think you see more about the group size at 100 yards then 50 yards. If it not worthy at 50 I don’t even stretch it out to 100 yards.
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The lee 140 swc has done great in my Badger 357 and Recluse!So has the NOE 163 gr /146 gr hp Bulldog round
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The lee 140 swc has done great in my Badger 357 and Recluse!So has the NOE 163 gr /146 gr hp Bulldog round
I tried the Lee 358-140-SWC 144gr (.358) in my Slayer. They were the worst of all groups I have shot. I did have a lot of trouble seating them though. Maybe if I sized them to .357 they may cooperate a little better at 100 yards.
This was my final and best group with them shot at 850 FPS. I had to fight to get them seated so I didn't shoot a full group.
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Note that bullets from the same batch as TriggerTreat just posted shoot 1" at 100 out of my .357 Texan but give 3" groups out of my Pitbull at 50 yards. I sent them to him to test just for this, because Slayer owners need to identify what works in their rifles specifically.
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Keith, I sized the Lee slugs to 357 and they still don't shoot out of the Slayer . The Lee in 160 do not group either.
Ray
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Yea the lee 140 swc drops fat,,,,about .359-.360 but id Ray sized them and didnt get a good group then Id chalk um as a dud.Gotta be too low of a twist rate then.I have a 1-20 in my Recluse and a 1-22 in my badger.Anyone tryed the 124 gr NOE TC hp??They shoot well in my guns aswell and a little lighter.
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On my side, I talked to Al at NOE and he's still backed up so hasn't gotten to the revised Accurate cherry n mold yet so that's still 5 or 6 weeks away.
Jeremy1982, wait a few days and I'll bet a few interesting reviews come in.
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Carl, Got to the range today with my Slayer at Hastings MI. 38 degrees with 6 to 8 mph crosswinds. All shooting at 50 yards. All but last group are 5 shot groups with 3400 fill and about 2600 remaining . Velocity was 870 to 890 for the Accurate bullets .
The groups are marked on the target with bullet shot. Last group was 5 shots but each shot was refilled to 3300. The one outside was my fault otherwise I am sure would have been in the same hole.
I must get that mold , simply WOW.
Molds listed are as follows
Accurate 36-168J 156.9 grains
NOE 359-174-FN 151 grains
NOE TL-357-135-RF 128 grains
NOE 359-115-RF 117.9 grains
The 3 heaviest bullets are hollow pointed.
Carl please check if I have these correct . Also I really appreciate the opportunity to test these . Ray
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Good shooting!
Expanding on an earlier post: I'm trying to arrange for other people to get one like it, I'm going to pay the $300 to NOE to grind the cherry for my 36-168J bullet, Al's got the drawing I sent him and after he gets it ground he can make a batch of molds. But it will be 8 to 10 weeks before they show up on his website. I used 40 years of experience to design that bullet. Glad you like it
Basically, you have the other mold model numbers right although those are without the codes for mold material and cavity number. Here's the full molds they were cast from:
359-174-FN-CE2-RG2 Cavity BT
TL357-135-RF-AU5-RG2 Cavity GC
359-115-RF-R2 2Cav PB
The TL bullet also comes as a plain base but it's biggest problem is it's too small diameter which hurts it's accuracy. In my other .357 rifles is still plenty accurate but I sent the mold off to be modified by adding a .359 rear driving band like the BBT's have that can be sized and will fill/grip the bore better. I've put a PDF file here so you could see what I mean but I'm not sure it will show right???
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Did you send the Accurate mold to Erik to get it hollow pointed?
Will the same mold from NOE be available with hollow point?
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Ray...Were you a sniper at some point.lol 8)
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Jeremy, Just a shaky old man who gets lucky once in a while
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Great shooting Ray...Thanks for the input!
I have been analyzing the groups with the OnTarget Precision software. All are well under 1" c-t-c. The famous Accurate mold comes in at .6". I hope Carl has success in getting that mold to market.
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Did you send the Accurate mold to Erik to get it hollow pointed?
Will the same mold from NOE be available with hollow point?
Yes, I designed it to be a DRT on hogs and deer for the low speeds of air rifles and then had Accurate make the mold. He sent it direct to Eric who did several pins.to find the right size.
The NOE version will have a couple of changes, shorten the base shank .010, add .004 more width to each groove and shorten the bore ride at the base of the nose .020 - trying to get the weight down closer to 150gr but still keep the accuracy. Going to make the lips on the HP .025 instead of .020 to stiffen them up so less possible handling damage but not change the CG too much.
With a slightly lower weight the FPS will go up a small amount.
Al and I discussed changing the first band diameter down to .351 too for more bore ride, less bore friction plus easier engraving/ chambering but he thought regular centerfire shooters might be interested in the bullet but would want all bands the same diameter so I agreed to do that instead as it would make the mold more popular.
And yes, it will be available as an RG style mold with the HP, cup point and flat point pins.
As a side note, Al told me the .25 mold I asked rsterne/Bob to draw up and have the poll on is being drawn up (machining print) too so he can send that to the tool makers and have the cherry made so I'm looking forward to that mold too 😃
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Thanks Carl. This helps.
And Keith, where did you get the app for group sizing?
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Thanks Carl. This helps.
And Keith, where did you get the app for group sizing?
https://ontargetshooting.com/
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Thanks Keith
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Forgot to mention that the slugs were lubed with 10 weight shock oil. About 50 rounds shot and very little signs of leading.
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I ran some test and turned up the Slayer a bit more for these heavier slugs I've cast (NOE 359-174-FN-CE2 RG4 BT).
It looks like, between the sorted weights and different diameters, that there is a ~ 10 FPE difference between them all. The spreadsheet is showing the data for 5 shots each along with the results for each test with shots 2,3 and 4. I'm liking the 152gr .358 diameter results the best. We'll see if those group the best at the range.
Due to all the rain I haven't been able to get to the range with them yet. I really need to know what to size the slugs to before I can go any further.
Anyhoo, here is some data we can chew on until then.
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Have had very good results with the LEE 150 and 125 grain molds at .358. both give sub 1", 5 shot groups at 50 yards from a bulldog. I suspect a slayer would definitely do superb with them.
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Ray I noticed you spoke of the 10w lube...hsve any of you tryed the hi tek coating?Its a coating but supp to be lube aswell.I just started using it and I do think its helping accuracy.I lose about 10 fps but groups have shrunk and strings have been better
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I can say that early reports using HiTek were not good BUT they have reformulated it and users now know to use 10 parts solvent instead of 7 and do at least two coats. I'm testing it now but have a LOT of coating tests andvshooting to do before I would post anything on it.
I have also had good accuracy with Rooster Jacket Waterproof Bullet Film and Paper Patch Lube coating which leaves a dry waxy coat on the bullets but did have to play around with it to find the best procedure.
Lee Liquid Alox did not work for me nor did most of the traditional pellet lubes.
Powder coating works to prevent fouling but I got uneven thickness coatings and did not get match accuracy, just 'hunting' accuracy. Another methoid that may work but needs people to figure out the right technique for airgun use.
A tip that everytime I switch between lubes I either have to clean the barrel thoroughly or shoot a lot of conditioning shots.
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Has anyone tried the Speer or Hornady swaged bullets?
https://www.speer-ammo.com/products/bullets/handgun-bullets/lead-handgun-bullets/4628 (https://www.speer-ammo.com/products/bullets/handgun-bullets/lead-handgun-bullets/4628)
https://www.hornady.com/bullets/handgun/38-cal-358-158-gr-swc-hp#!/ (https://www.hornady.com/bullets/handgun/38-cal-358-158-gr-swc-hp#!/)
I've got some coming but even though they are pure lead and soft I'm not sure on how hard they will be to chamber
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I think that even the 10 part is too thick.my first few batches were not good at all.hard shell and flaky!IThey said 3.5 oz Acetone to 20 gram of hi tek but I started doing 3.5 to 14 gram and its a LOT better!I have to do 3 coats but its silky smooth now with no flake!Ive ran a few done the barrel with a push rod and they glide down compaired to before.I cant say that they 100% were the reason my groups shrunk but it seems they tighted up some.And fps spread was better for sure.chroned both bare and coated
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OK, I'll try it at that dilution my next batch...
Red Copper or Zombie Green
So wicked looking, Hahahaha
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Another thing I started doing is using a med. dropper!I use 1ml for every 100 bullets if they are .357 and under.I use 1.25 on the .457 rounds.I use the same amount every time I coat.1st coat will look thin and spotty...2nd will be 10xs better
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Those Speer bullets are Pug-Ugly, IMO.... ::)
Bob
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Yup, those Speer put the ugh in ugly.
I think they tumble them to do the powder lube they use.
But if they shoot accurately I don't care. They do OK in PB revolvers at low n medium velocities I'm told.
I really think the swaged Hornady might be much better though.
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I decided to order this to test:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/419842/hornady-bullets-lead-semi-wadcutter-hollow-point (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/419842/hornady-bullets-lead-semi-wadcutter-hollow-point)
And I finally found some of the "Polycase ARX Inceptor Preferred Defense Bullet .38 Cal/.357 Magnum" at:
https://www.laymansgunshop.com/manufacturers/polycase-ammunition?caliber=59&page=1 (https://www.laymansgunshop.com/manufacturers/polycase-ammunition?caliber=59&page=1)
I bought 7 boxes of the 86gr and 6 boxes of the 77gr... their entire inventory at that location. I had been able to get one box of the 86gr from Midway before they discontinued them and they shot well on a hog hunting trip last year in the Pitbull so I have high hopes for them in the Slayer. {When they finish this batch of rifles and ship them to us I'll be ready! ! !}
FYI - Sunday I was filling my air tanks and my Davv SCU50 cratered - the HP side cylinder cracked completely around just above the attachment flange! I had bought it last August and had done about 36 fills on a 60min SCBU tank since then. At the local paintball field that would have cost $540 but I got the SCU50 for $460 and free shipping so I did not lose money but I'm not real happy.
I guess a 'real' compressor is in my future since I'm not going to go Chinese again (note this is the same compressor but in a different frame that Air Ventura sells for $1400, I wonder how many warrantys they have had? Note I always used Royal Purple compressor oil and changed it every 5 hours of operation so it was well maintained. And I never let it overheat either, it got 40 degree chilled water for cooling from an external system!)
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Those Hornaday look almost as rough as the Speer. I'd be curious as to how they perform out of the Slayer.
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Those Hornaday look almost as rough as the Speer. I'd be curious as to how they perform out of the Slayer.
Yah, the knurled surface looks rough but smooths down when it goes into the rifling, at least it did back when I shot PB and these same bullets in reduced loads in a 358 Winchester @ 1000 FPS. A lot of the 'crud' you see in that picture is a lube on the bullet.
Never really thought of them for air rifles but another PCP guy here in Texas told me he was having good luck so I will try them. Thought about buying a box of 50 to test but with the shipping, buying the 300 was not much more and a better deal now than buying more later and paying shipping again if they do as well as he says. Like I say MGTOW [Men Going Their Own Way - is a statement of self-ownership, where the modern man preserves and protects his own sovereignty above all else.] and if I want it I buy it.
Until I get my Slayer, I'll shoot these in my Pitbull: I'll try them as they are, with oil lube and even try to size some to .357 and see how they shoot.
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I have to ask, is it that most .35 rifle owners don't try many different slugs to see what they can get to shoot best...
Or that other owners are experimenting but just not posting?
I really hoped this would be a Clearinghouse or University to share the knowledge but there's only a few of us participating. Hopefully there will be more eventually
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Just waiting for the snow to melt off
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I'll have better info after another trip or two to the range. I'd rather be real sure of my findings.
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Those Hornaday look almost as rough as the Speer. I'd be curious as to how they perform out of the Slayer.
I'll send you some (50?) to test when they get here like the other ones. Shamu25 too if he wants.
More shooters, more reliable data.
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Those Hornaday look almost as rough as the Speer. I'd be curious as to how they perform out of the Slayer.
I'll send you some (50?) to test when they get here like the other ones. Shamu25 too if he wants.
More shooters, more reliable data.
Thanks! It should be interesting to see how they do out of a Slayer.
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I agree with Bob about the beauty of that Hornady swaged slug. lol
2 concerns. I have not had success with hard lead in airguns. Wonder about the hardness with these slugs.
Also my Slayer hates slugs with a sharp shoulder. They are a bugger to chamber.
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I am pretty sure these are soft lead as if you drive them past 1000 in a PB revolver they will lead.
As per the chambering, wonder if being sized to .357 would help?
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Why would Hornady put such a crude picture on the website for these bullets??
Here's a pic of what I got today...
These bullets don't look bad.
Note that because of the small picture size required for this site the fine details don't show but I have gotten great accuracy from just as good bullets. {My phone has a 14Mp camera and NONE of the choices I have on the phone or in Windows software will size down to 580KB which is the max I have ever ACTUALLY gotten to upload to GTA. I resized over 20 times (resizing resized pics) and finally gave up and used the one you see}
And I fired five through my Pitbull into my backstop and all five chambered easily.
They have a dry powder lube on them. Can you see that they are actually a cup base, not flat (Hint, look at the ones in the box)?
[Man, I wish they made these in a 130gr! The Slayer is powerful enough to shoot a 158gr but regular unmodified air rifles would struggle to get any decent FPS.]
I'll ship 100 ea to TT n Shamu25 Sat morning.
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No, those don't look bad at all, and much better than the Hornaday pic.
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I will be testing these (NOE 359-174-FN-CE2 RG4 cavity BT) cast slugs next. They have been sized to .359, .358, and .357 and sorted down to within .50gr, .60gr, and .64gr of each other, respectably. I polished the tips and bases removing any burs with my own unique technique, so basically I have done all I know to do to them. They do look and feel really good to my untrained eye.
I am wanting to know which size works best out of the three, and is why I have sorted them and pampered them. My hope is that these shoot terrific out of my .357 Slayer, since I have a lot invested in this new casting venture. They will be shot at 893 FPS on average.
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;D ;D ;D 8)
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;D ;D ;D 8)
8) NICE!!! Are we suppose to assume 100% lead on these?
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I'm sorry, you don't get 100 ea...
because I lost count I was having so much fun and shot all of 'mine' and a couple of yours this morning ::)
So only 98 ea packed.
300 count box is now empty minus you guys share
I shot some as is but most I lubed with 10wt, no leading.
Avg 820 FPS out of the Pitbull with the SS valve, three shots and refill.
I was ringing a 12" gong at 300yards (and got a bunch of comments on my new paint job, haha) {Not every shot obviously, I was shooting with an 204" drop!! but I was hitting all around it and HIT it about 7 or 8 times!!!!!!!!! If it had been a 24" I would have hit it 75% of the time} but this scope was the wrong one for long range as I had to hold over so much I was not even close to any horizontal lines - the Optisan I just took off would have been perfect. Narrow, vertically strung 'group' 6 inches wide and 2 feet tall. Here's a pic of the recticle, the 3x9 is the same as the 4x12... see how hard it would be to shoot 300 yards with a 100 yard zero? But the challenge overcame me and I forgot to do the target shooting till I was out except for those I had set aside for ya'll, haha.
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Sounds like fun to me! Thanks Carl.
I sized my Keith 160 grain slugs to 357 and they do chamber a bit better in the Slayer. At 358 they are a pain
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Have you guys ever tried 0.356" in the Slayer?.... A lot of PCPs shoot best with bullets 0.001" under the groove diameter, with no loss of velocity (most of mine even gain a few fps at 0.001" under)…. and boy, do they load a lot easier....
Bob
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Shot off two USPS Flat Rate boxes this morning.
Time to target is calculated to be Monday... what would be the FPS on that? 😁
Bob, of course I will be trying your suggestion but I think most Slayer owners are going with Tom's recommendation. I will note that in my big bores I have found best accuracy in bore size bullets or a small bit under, not .001 over, too.
I plan to slug the bore (when I get the rifle, the 6th will be two months since ordering, but it says there will be a wait, sigh) and measure exactly, then polish a NOE sizing die to match that.
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Thanks Carl for shipping me some of those new test slugs!
I decided to wait until next weekend to go to the range to test my NOE cast, so that makes it so I can test these new slugs, too. I am waiting on a .359 bushing from NOE. My cast .359s need to be sized to .359. I wished I had ordered the .356 bushing also.
With my current tune, the 153gr (.359) NOE cast peaked at 905 FPS, but they were not sized and mic a little oversized. The 154gr (.359) peaked at 887 FPS, but again oversized. Those 158gr .358s should push out about the same or just slightly less than that??? The 152gr sized to .358 peaked at 911 FPS.
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Have you guys ever tried 0.356" in the Slayer?.... A lot of PCPs shoot best with bullets 0.001" under the groove diameter, with no loss of velocity (most of mine even gain a few fps at 0.001" under)…. and boy, do they load a lot easier....
Bob
I shoot mine .001 under bore size
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0.356" bushing ordered.
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I received the Hornaday's from Carl, well packaged as usual. I weighed them, and there's only a difference of .64 grains between all 98 of them (158.12 to 158.76). With the coating, they can be hard to measure, but 0.3565" seems to be the most repeatable diameter, so that's what I'm calling them. They do look good, and much better than pictured. Just hope they shoot well. Thanks again Carl!
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We all have to wait for the weather to clear then there will be some shoot'n going on!
Looking forward to your report on chambering in the Slayer (but at .356 they should chamber easily) and I sent 98 instead of 50 so you could do a good workout, trying different pressures for the best FPS/FPE and accuracy testing.
Just like pellets are more mass produced than our cast, maybe these could be an additional 'relatively' cheap option for people who don't cast and want a SWCHP.
That being said, Nick's NSA stuff is the Gold standard to buy, but you only get one nose style.
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Shot the 158 grain Hornady swaged bullets that Carl sent. My mic showed them at
357
They do not group well in the Slayer. About 1 1/2 " at 50 yards . Wish they came in 358.
That may make a difference.
They do chamber like butter though. Thanks Carl for sending.
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Ray, I also was able to shoot the Hornady's today. I was able to get a group under an inch c-t-c at 50 yards.
(https://i.ibb.co/3CCH6FD/06-Hornaday-3565-50-Yds-3-10-19.png)
I got mixed results at 100 yards. One group showed promise while the other spread out more. It could have been a dirty barrel or fill pressure issue?
(https://i.ibb.co/Y8nCyVC/07-Hornaday-3565-100-Yds-3-10-19.png)
Thanks again Carl!
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Your welcome.
I'll try them too when my Slayer comes.
Ordered another box so I have some again, haha.
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Just a hunch Keith but I bet if those Hornadys were 358 they would shoot a ragged hole at 50. The only 357 sized bullets that shoot in my Slayer are the 142 NSAs. Everything else has to be 358
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Just a hunch Keith but I bet if those Hornadys were 358 they would shoot a ragged hole at 50. The only 357 sized bullets that shoot in my Slayer are the 142 NSAs. Everything else has to be 358
I shot a bunch of other groups today with my new NOE mould sized from .356 to .359 diameter. I do believe .358 is what I'll focus on going forward. I'll post the other groups at a later date.
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I've got a couple of containers of Harbor Freight red powder coat left over, might be an interesting experiment to wash the Hornadys in solvent (to remove the lube that's on them) then set them on their bases on a metal plate and use the electrogun to spray coat them which done right can add an even thousandths to the diameter.
The Hi-tek coating is much thinner and would not work that way.
I had some good results with the NSA 140gr coated with the HiTek, no targets I'm going to post pics of yet but several very thin coats (like three) is looking like the right path.
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Here are the results of my new and first NOE (359-174-FN-CE2 RG4) mould cast. Mostly at 50 yards, but some at 100 yards. Look closely at the descriptions because some pages have different slug groups on a couple of them. Also, many different head sizes.
I was quite happy with seeing my first cast slugs group fairly well and wasn't a complete disaster. I'll be tweaking the cast more going forward.
50 yards:
(https://i.ibb.co/NYK49hW/01-356-50-Yd-3-10-19.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/bBFhLk3/02-NOE-357-50-Yds-3-10-19.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/tmWQJrM/03-NOE-358-50-Yds-3-10-19.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/mBHM7WR/04-NOE-358-359-50-Yds-3-10-19.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/DYrL2Sz/05-NOE-359-amp-Carl-50-Yds-3-10-19.png)
100 yards:
(https://i.ibb.co/hy8j7Yx/08-NOE-358-100-Yds-3-10-19.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/NKBWwsy/09-NOE-359-100-Yds-3-10-19.png)
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Here are the 50 yard average group sizes broken down by diameters:
.356
- x4, 5 shot groups avg. 1.150 c-t-c
.357
- x2, 5 shot groups avg. 1.192 c-t-c
- x2, 4 shot groups avg. 0.607 c-t-c
.358
- x4, 5 shot groups avg. 1.186 c-t-c
- x4, 4 shot groups avg. 0.763 c-t-c
.359
- x3, 5 shot groups avg. 1.167 c-t-c
- x3, 3-4 shot groups avg. 0.723 c-t-c
I am favoring the .358 diameter results being the average is similar with more groups shot , but they are all fairly close. What do you say?
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@ShakeySarge
@TriggerTreat
@Shamu25
Want to try some of these next?
I have 77gr "38 Inceptor's" and 86gr "357 Magnum Inceptor's"
They mike .358 and the 77gr are .680 long, the 86gr are .720
They shoot in my Pitbull but I want to see how they shoot in your air rifles.
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They seem a little light for the Slayer, but I would be willing to give the heavier ones a try.
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Thanks for the offer Carl but I have found nothing under 120 grains groups in my Slayer. I would have to dial it down to get better results and that seems self defeating. Plus I hate to mess with the settings as it shoots so well with the heavier stuff. The tiny screw that adjusts air flow on these guns is very touchy.
BTW my Accurate 36-168J mold came yesterday. I plan to cast a bunch before having it hollow pointed to see how they group.
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That's what this is all about, sharing what works and what does not. I am learning from your experience. Knowing others have not had good luck under 120gr is useful.
These slugs are interesting in that they are copper dust in a plastic so they are long like a heavier bullet so should act in the rifling like a heavier bullet but are light and get higher velocities. I was getting just under supersonic and 1/2" at 50 yards with the non-Slayer I tried them in, although I did have to back the hammer spring off a full turn.
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And here is an example of using a bipod whose feet slide around on the shooting bench - see the top group?
Switched to a forend bag and got the usual bottom group (although I switched bullets too).
[The range had 6" of water on it, had to wade out to the target stands hahahahah... dedicated shooter? Or just crazy for airguns?]
Also: I spoke with Al at NOE today and he told me he had 8 cherrys ground, another 13 to grind (one of which is mine) and then he has to start milling the molds so it's not coming to the catalog for buys for for at least another month.
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Those are some tight groups Carl!
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Yah, I had thought I'd sell off the Pitbull after the Slayer got here (already got rid of the .357 Ataman M2R Tact) but the more I shoot it the more I realize it has a place, it's actually a pretty good gun with 115/130gr range of weight slugs. Slayer for heavy slugs and Pitbull for lighter, the FLEX+ is actually a 130 FPE .250 rifle I just happen to have a .357 barrel for too.
Can't decide whether to dump the .357 Texan or use it to re-barrel to 7mm. The .357 would take a lot more parts change/mods than a .308 would so selling it and buying another .308 Texan just needs a barrel to do the 7mm project. (.357 valve would not work but the .308 valve works unchanged/unmodified for 7mm)
:P I had a whole handfull of even better targets but slipped in the mud on the way back from collecting them (crossing a small ditch {1 foot x 3 foot} that runs across the range so you have to jump...and it was under the 6" of water [6" + 12"] so I misjudged the far side) and that was the only one that survived :'(
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I wouldn't sell any until I got the Slayer to compare with. I seen someone with a 300+ FPE Pitbull. He probably bought the gun two or three times with all the upgrades to it though.
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@ShakeySarge
@TriggerTreat
@Shamu25
Want to try some of these next?
I have 77gr "38 Inceptor's" and 86gr "357 Magnum Inceptor's"
They mike .358 and the 77gr are .680 long, the 86gr are .720
They shoot in my Pitbull but I want to see how they shoot in your air rifles.
Very interesting indeed. Unfortunately, with home makeovers/remodeling, my shooting time has been null and void for some time. Still have to get some good trigger time with the last slugs you sent. Now that it is light longer, I may be able to sneak some groups in in the evening. I have a couple weights you may want to try as well from the Lee molds. They do excellent in the bully at .358 and am going to see how they perform in .357 now that the other sizer finally arrived. They may do quite well in a slayer.
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Just got off the phone with Al at NOE again and he just sent me this drawing. I've requested a couple of changes: A. Shorten the gas shank .005 and add it to the bore ride section of the nose (.060 becomes .065). B. Make all the bands lengths .049 as it just seems strange to have three different band lengths??? {all grooves were changed from .046 to .049 previously} C. The .351 bore ride becomes .352 as slugging several barrels with my cast slugs showed it needed this for proper 'contact' across several manufacturers bore sizes.
Note this bullet should be a couple gr lighter than my original Accurate 36-168J (152gr instead of 156gr) but it is still just within borderline in my math calculation limits for good accuracy (changes required to make it 150gr and it fell out of the limits so this is absolutely the lightest I can get it for lower powered air rifles).
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That's looking really good. I like the .200 top lip (outside of the HP). That should make it less prone to damages, like you said. I do wish the weight was closer to 142gr - 150gr, but 152gr will work, too. Just depends on the fill and tune, or tethered or not. You'll for sure get three good shots if not more at 100 yards tuned in the very low 900's on a 3800 fill with the Slayer.
That 152gr weight is also for pure lead, so I think we can lighten them up a little more by tweaking the lead alloy and cast temps. The sizing plays a key roll, too in velocity.
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And it's updated to final!
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That's looking really good. I like the .200 top lip (outside of the HP). That should make it less prone to damages, like you said. I do wish the weight was closer to 142gr - 150gr, but 152gr will work, too. Just depends on the fill and tune, or tethered or not. You'll for sure get three good shots if not more at 100 yards tuned in the very low 900's on a 3800 fill with the Slayer.
That 152gr weight is also for pure lead, so I think we can lighten them up a little more by tweaking the lead alloy and cast temps.
Yah, the nose rim was thin on the Accurate 36-168J but that was to get the overall length and have the proper CG. By making it thicker it is less prone to handling damage (and a little less 'explosive' opening) but also a few percent less accurate so it is a trade-off I hope is acceptable. The old OAL 36-168J bullet length was .690 and the new is .670 which is another barely 'there' accuracy factor.
People don't understand that it is all a system and a change one place cascades and can totally change what works in real life shooting. I spent a LOT of time working out the Accurate 36-168J and even MORE time trying to change it to the NOE 358-152-HP-GC so other people get to shoot it. I rated the J bullet as a 9.5/10 on the accuracy scale of design but I am paying $300 for the cherry for a bullet that is just a 8/10 to get it mass produced so other people can buy a mold.
The changes were because several people told me the 36-168J was TOO HEAVY and it needed to be lighter, almost impossible to do without losing what it is but we shall see.
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Of subject a little but will those interceptor work in out airguns?Are they too hard to make it out the bore?
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Cast some today from my new
Accurate 36-168J
Sized them to. 3578. Shot 2 groups at 50 yards with the Slayer. Both groups were ragged holes. 171 grain and 830 fps. The mold will likely go to Erik next for Hollowpoint.
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If 120 grain is the lightest the Slayer likes then I've got a short range varmint slug you can try. Crabtree made the 358345 for 38 special for clean holes. It's a semi wadcutter that drops just over 120 grain in 1-2% tin alloy. It has no long range potential, strictly a 50 yards and under plinker or varmint bain.
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Of subject a little but will those interceptor work in out airguns?Are they too hard to make it out the bore?
Chamber easier than the lead slugs and shoot just fine.
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Of subject a little but will those interceptor work in out airguns?Are they too hard to make it out the bore?
Chamber easier than the lead slugs and shoot just fine.
Good deal...may have to put them on my list then!
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These are my go to bullets for lighter weights in the Slayer. NOE molds. At 358 they chamber easily. HP is 126 grains and FP is 133 grains. FP is dead on accurate at 50 yards and HP a bit less accurate. Have not shot them beyond 50.
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Of subject a little but will those interceptor work in out airguns?Are they too hard to make it out the bore?
Chamber easier than the lead slugs and shoot just fine.
Good deal...may have to put them on my list then!
It's an interesting situation...
Plug the 86gr into Chairgun at 1100 FPS and BC of 0.16 with RA4 drag law, 85 yd zero and 150 yard target and the trajectory and FPE are nice for varments/small game up to medium.
Bob has been urging for years for people to use tin instead of lead for large sized aerodynamic but light weight bullets, this effectively does the same thing.
Of course, the 'theory', tested in ballistic gelatin, is that the flutes on the nose have little effect in flight but cause a big expansion cavity in denser tissues for more lethality.
So yes, it's a "trick" bullet. And sometimes they come and go from use but so were jacketed bullets at one time considered new fangled trick bullets no decent shooter would need or use.
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These are my go to bullets for lighter weights in the Slayer. NOE molds. At 358 they chamber easily. HP is 126 grains and FP is 133 grains. FP is dead on accurate at 50 yards and HP a bit less accurate. Have not shot them beyond 50.
FYI - NOE is out of stock on this mold at this time (the RG HP one) but I asked Al to make a batch and restock (so I could buy one too, haha) and he said he would be doing that between a month and midyear from now when he catches up - starting from his most popular molds first (remember, his main customers are powder burner shooters, not us pneumatic guys, our molds are important to us but sidelines to him)
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These are my go to bullets for lighter weights in the Slayer. NOE molds. At 358 they chamber easily. HP is 126 grains and FP is 133 grains. FP is dead on accurate at 50 yards and HP a bit less accurate. Have not shot them beyond 50.
That's good to know, and looks perfect! I am wanting a light weight bullet from NOE. I'll see if I can find that one. What's the NOE numbers to verify, thanks!
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These are my go to bullets for lighter weights in the Slayer. NOE molds. At 358 they chamber easily. HP is 126 grains and FP is 133 grains. FP is dead on accurate at 50 yards and HP a bit less accurate. Have not shot them beyond 50.
That's good to know, and looks perfect! I am wanting a light weight bullet from NOE. I'll see if I can find that one. What's the NOE numbers to verify, thanks!
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=35_527 (http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=35_527)
On the NOE website, If you click on a particular 'mold' and you see no 'Add to Cart' button down towards the bottom of the page below the drawing, he's out of stock on that mold.
None of the three options have any stock till he makes new batches
{Sent from my phone, laying in a hospital bed with a broken right collar bone... no shooting for 5 or 6 weeks... arrrgh!}
{I'll be 'pinned' and back home tomorrow, yay}
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Thanks! I do remember looking at those a while back. The quantity column was showing zero back then, too.
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What's up with this Carl. Broken collar bone! You are too young for this
Bummer
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Dang Carl, that's not good news. Hope you heal up really fast.
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I let my Texan do it to me...
I was in an odd shooting position and did not have the butt tightly shouldered, had an air pressure (that shall not be named to keep the nanny's on GTA from clutching their pearls) and on the shot the bottle dumped so I got a large for an air rifle recoil that all landed on my collar bone which gave way.
Next I am going to finish my custom stock (similar to Loren's actually, great minds? hahaha) so the AF tank mounted HARD STEEL buttstock goes away.
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Carl,
I am sorry to hear collar bone is broken, I hope you heal up fast and get better soon.
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What REALLY pi$$es me off is I had a race on the 30th that I'm going to miss now and the $450 track fee is non-refundable.
Update: while commenting here i was also watiching a video on youTube and the nurse came in and said you can not watch that type of stuff here, it upsets people.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=901&v=iiTCzltHM2I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=901&v=iiTCzltHM2I)
Got to go, later
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Has anyone tried the Cutting Edge Raptor handgun 105 grain or 140 grain bullets? Pretty pricey they are. I'd give them a try for a dedicated bullet for "called in" coyotes, if they proved to be the most accurate. A box of 50 should last awhile. I would volunteer to give them a go if no one else has, I need my 357 Slayer first, I'm a few months away from ownership.
Gary
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The Slayer has a decent kick when cranked up. I hope nothing like that happens. This is certainly something to note when handling big bores.
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I'm baaaaack (got my phone back from 'patient property' and am being released this morning)
As per the recoil, most centerfire rifles have more than our air rifles, this is a case of a hard edged buttplate not set into the hollow of the shoulder because of where I was trying to shoot from AND I left a gap so that when the bottle dumped and the gun 'rocketed' back even harder than usually normal it caught me totally wrong. A once in a million that was just a tiny bit of bad luck in my usual good life.
All I can say now is "owww" I'm sore!!!!
And " moving on!"
Note that if you take the poppet spring out of the Texan valve you pick up about 50 FPS - but then sometimes the airflow does not close it on firing and the entire air charge dumps basically instantly. Generates quite a backward force. Only guys that have modified their rifles to max power would ever have this happen and I'd guess most owners would never do this and it would never happen to them. It's actually rare and I had shot several hundred 327gr shots that day when it happened. And if I'd been 'shouldered' regularly it would not have hurt me, just had to refill the rifle from totally empty, not 2000 like usual.
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Posting this here for those interested in buying the 36-168J mold after you've seen the testing here..
Note that the bullet has been lightened a couple of grains from the original prototype mold. Looks stubby in the NOE picture but its not, haha
The NOE says it's 152gr HP with pure lead so will be a few gr lighter with tin alloys
Also, the original nose was a secant profile (straighter / more conical) but the newer nose is more tangential profile but in a shorter nose has no difference or effect in flight.
OK, Al just called me and said the NOE copy of the Accurate 36-168J is up in the store.
This is a limited production run and he does not know when he will be able to run another batch.
Here is the link to the bullet web page.
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=35_590 (http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=35_590)
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Looks like we have another winner Carl. Received my NOE mold. She drops 150 grains. 287 fpe from my Slayer. 4 of 5 in 1/2 inches at 50 yards. That's as good as the Accurate.
My new Accurate is not back from Erik yet so could not compare side by side. Will test them together when it comes. Thanks for getting this mold into production.
Ray
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Looking good Ray! I haven't even cast any of those yet. I'm focused on my .25 cal currently.
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Good shooting!
Thanks for the report.
Still waiting on my Slayer but my FLEX+ and Pitbull are shooting it the best too.
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Thanks guys. Sure hope that Slayer comes soon. I get more impressed every time out
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Got my Accurate mold back from Erik yesterday and cast some bullets today. The bullet on the left is Accurate. The one on the right is NOE. Hope to compare them early next week for accuracy. Accurate weights 154 and NOE weights 150.
The accurate casts very well with the sliding pins. I get great cavity fill with pressure casting and no flashing at all. The Accurate mold is so precise that you cannot even detect the seam
Test results soon
Ray
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Agreed, Accurate does produce some great molds and can adjust dimensions on an existing design if you want to customize one.
I got the nose punch back I had returned to Eric so he could duplicate the HP on the 36-168J for you a couple days ago so I knew he had done your mold.
I cast some of them in tin/bismuth lead free alloy to test in the Slayer....
I'm just in a holding pattern till my Slayer gets here (100+ days n counting).
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Carl, you are amazing. Thanks for making this happen. So much appreciated. Going to try them out today
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Shot some groups at 50 and both bullets shoot almost identical
Not super surprised. Will stretch out to 100 next time. Very satisfied with both. I believe that this Slayer in the hands of the right person would shoot 1 hollers.
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Not bad for a hunting bullet 😁
I would love to know what the NOE's are chrographing in the Slayer so could do the FPE and trajectory calcs
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Carl, here are some Slayer numbers for you. Let me know if you need anything else. I chose not to set this gun for a bell curve. It is super accurate as it is and do not want to mess it up. NOE 150 grain hollowpoint 295 FPE. 358-152-HP-CF2
3500 psi 942 fps
3300 935
3150 912
3000 893
2850 880
2700
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Just what I wanted to see, thank you
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Guy's, I have been enjoying following this thread. Exciting time in AirGunning for all of us.
Trig, I saw you mention wanting to try a lighter version.
Try this, remove the last driving band, and leave the groove (Lube groove) which will now mirror the shortened gas check shank. ;)
I have done this to a number of my 257 molds for the RS II, as it does not have the Horse Power of the Talon/Dor. Results have been very good. 8)
On most .257 bullets, it droops the weight by apx.10 grains. The .357 should be more. Just shaving it in this way will allow you to see what the weight would be, and if anyone around you has a lathe, a hand full could be tested.
If you like what you get for accuracy, velocity, and air usage, A mold could be decked to give the new length. Accurate, Noe. Arsenal, would probably be willing to cut a mold with the cherry in shallower.
If not, I would be more than happy to deck it to what works in your gun after your testing on the shortened bullet.
Mike
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Tried the NOE and Accurate bullets at 100 yards today. If I could tame this beast it would be lights out. Not too bad for a bullpup with a kick. The target with 3 shots touching still makes me think that with a perfect hold they all may do that. Top 2 targets are Accurate bullets. Bottom target is NOE
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Better accuracy than a lot of real world centerfire sporting rifles and at that FPE/FPS with that HP it will take down any deer.
(Always got to put in the qualifiers for the nit pickers)
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Excellent results with those!
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Sweet groups Ray!
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Great shooting...That'll work real nice!
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Those are some good looking groups Ray