GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Projectiles => Boolit and Pellet Casting => Topic started by: Sky on February 04, 2019, 09:59:03 PM
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Hi. I'm planning on getting my first big bore when the Hammer starts shipping next month 🤣.
As far as casting bullets for it..is there a good primer, and perhaps some moulds recommend to start with?
I know I'll need lead, a melting pot, moulds. The part I don't know about is sizing. So a press with sizing dies? How far can I size a bullet, do they need lube? How many sizing dies?
Thanks for any info. Any comprehensive post or even a book would be helpful.
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There will be much to learn about the Hammer, I see there is a list on Pyramid Airs listing as to what ammo and power they are reporting. As far as bullet sizing that probably is yet to be determined, once the gun gets into the hands of shooters.
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Look up Lymans master casting kit. Part #2712000.
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Look up Lymans master casting kit. Part #2712000.
That looks like a great start. Any big downside to a ladel vs a bottom pour pot?
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Another item that is worth it's weight,
Is the OLD fashion round coil heat plates, used to preheat the molds, extra clean lead in cast iron pots etc.
You can find then at just about any thrift shop, yard sales may also have lead around,
start with pure soft lead and then you can harden to the alloy that shoot the best for your AG,
and cast bullet/pellets etc.
Welders LEATHER gloves, good eye protection to save your eyes from a tinsel fairly,
long sleeve HD cotton shirt/Levis pants and good leather foot ware.
NOE molds has a good sizers that can be used with a Lee press that is used upside down etc,
go to Cast boolits site/forum, tons of info to get you started right safely.
Lyman has several good casting books, worth the funds for them etc,
there is a learning curve when using a lead ladle or bottom pour equipment.
HTH's,
Tia,
Don
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I haven't seen a twist rate on the Hammer yet and really haven't check into 50 cal molds much either, slugging the bore is essential to find exactly what you need. These things really can't be done unless you've already got the gun so personally I would wait before I started ordering molds for it.
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A great place to start.
https://www.ebay.com/p/Lyman-Cast-Bullet-Handbook-4th-Edition-9817004-Book/2255116714?iid=162958436387&chn=ps (https://www.ebay.com/p/Lyman-Cast-Bullet-Handbook-4th-Edition-9817004-Book/2255116714?iid=162958436387&chn=ps)
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Here's. A freebie
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm (http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm)
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A great place to start.
https://www.ebay.com/p/Lyman-Cast-Bullet-Handbook-4th-Edition-9817004-Book/2255116714?iid=162958436387&chn=ps (https://www.ebay.com/p/Lyman-Cast-Bullet-Handbook-4th-Edition-9817004-Book/2255116714?iid=162958436387&chn=ps)
Top Advice. I would also recommend looking CastBoolits.com. (Yes,that is how the spell it) It would take years of mistakes to learn what yo can there in a week.
Lastly, I would look at a proven platform, rather than Vapor Ware. There are apparently problems to the point that the gun has to be re-designed several times "after" it was already supposed to be to market. Other than American Airgunner, the on tv apparet advertising agency for the non existing in the wild AirGun, no one knows much if anything about it.
Will it come out soon? Who knows. They have been telling us it is ready for years now.
No way I would put my money down without seeing at least a little track record.
Knife
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Anyone opting for the "drill for probe" option when purchasing NOE moulds? I see they offer a Digital Mould Block Thermometer too. Sounds like a good idea for consistent cast, but I'm guessing most skip this process/expense.
I know enough to know once the moulds get heated up enough from the initial casts they will work well enough without a temp check, but startup mould temp is where this would be the most handy I'm guessing.
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Anyone opting for the "drill for probe" option when purchasing NOE moulds? I see they offer a Digital Mould Block Thermometer too. Sounds like a good idea for consistent cast, but I'm guessing most skip this process/expense.
I know enough to know once the moulds get heated up enough from the initial casts they will work well enough without a temp check, but startup mould temp is where this would be the most handy I'm guessing.
Wouldn't an IR thermometer be more practical with no cables hanging around? I've been using a cheap one and it seems to be accurate enough to estimate when to start casting.
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I also use an IR, however if you don't have either system, it is easy to tell when they are ready.
One, I follow Al's system of when I think it is ready to cast with, I fill the cavaties with lead, and put a dab of oil, (2 stroke synthetic) on the spru hing, and across the top of the spru plate. When it begins smoking, it is ready.
Another quick test, if you want to dip the corner of the mold block into the top of themelt, when lead no longer freezes on the blocks, you are ready.
If too hot, they will cast very frosted bullets for the first few cast if any Antimony is in them, and the puddle on the spru plate wil take far too long to freeze. Look for a 4-5 second full freeze of the puddles.
Now your ready! ;)
Knife
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I'll just use my IR and see how well that works. It has programable emissivity so I can dial it in as well for accuracy.
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I started with an IR, added a standard thermometer to confirm the varied readings from the IR taken in different places in the pot. Findings were that the stopper rod was closest to actual temps, top rim of the pot was also close near the back of the unit.
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The thing I like seeing about the Lee sizing dies is the container they come with that collects the sized bullets up top. What do others do when sizing with NOE sizers that don't come with the catch cup? Looks like one could modify a cup or can or something that may would work to some degree.
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Cut a soda bottle in half and screw it on top of the exposed threads, btw do yourself a favor and put a probe in all your molds. Mold temp is 95% of casting and without a probe you are just guessing. Everyone obsesses about pot temp because it is the easiest thing to measure. "Don't think about it as pouring lead into a mold, what you are really doing is pouring heat into a mold block" is some of the best advise I ever had from a very respected member of cast boolits. If the lead is liquid it is hot enough, over 750 degrees don't bother with tin cause it isn't doing much, and preheat your mold before you start casting (I start at 370 degrees for all new molds and fine tune the temp as I figure out what it likes)
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Cut a soda bottle in half and screw it on top of the exposed threads, btw do yourself a favor and put a probe in all your molds. Mold temp is 95% of casting and without a probe you are just guessing. Everyone obsesses about pot temp because it is the easiest thing to measure. "Don't think about it as pouring lead into a mold, what you are really doing is pouring heat into a mold block" is some of the best advise I ever had from a very respected member of cast boolits. If the lead is liquid it is hot enough, over 750 degrees don't bother with tin cause it isn't doing much, and preheat your mold before you start casting (I start at 370 degrees for all new molds and fine tune the temp as I figure out what it likes)
Thanks Shane...Great tips!
If I'm going to get into casting, I want the bullets to be as equal as possible. That will be the goal, which means attention to details like these.
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I forgot one other very important thing, and the one im the worst at. Keep good notes. If you enjoy it you will eventually have at least one drawer full of molds (pro tip: make sure it is a drawer the other half will never go peaking into or you are gonna be buying a lot of fancy shoes in your future) and quality notes will make your life a lot easier when pulling a block from the back of the drawer
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I forgot one other very important thing, and the one im the worst at. Keep good notes. If you enjoy it you will eventually have at least one drawer full of molds (pro tip: make sure it is a drawer the other half will never go peaking into or you are gonna be buying a lot of fancy shoes in your future) and quality notes will make your life a lot easier when pulling a block from the back of the drawer
LOL, well noted ;)
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I have been going back and forth on which melting pot to get. I wanted one of the two that comes with the PID controller. Either the RCBS Pro Melt 2 or the Lyman Mag 25. I have finally decided on going with the analog controlled Lee Pro 4 20lb instead. The PIDs are priced at ~$260 and the Pro 4 at ~$77.
My plan is to build my own PID controller for the Lee pot. I can build one for ~ $50 or less in a nice compact package with fused inputs and outputs. It will utilize a solid state relay to control power to the Lee pot. I'll use a K-type probe for monitoring the melt. I am a retired electronics tech and the build seems very simple and inexpensive now that I have looked at all of the pieces needed.
My thinking beyond saving ~$130 (which will buy some lead or a nice NOE 4 cavity mold) is that if the pot or the PID controller goes bad, I can more cheaply replace/repair either one instead of a $260 built-in one. I can also use the separate DIY PID controller for other stuff too, like melting down wheel weights at a controlled temp to sort out zinc weights which melt at a higher temp than lead. Anyways, just my thoughts.
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I have been going back and forth on which melting pot to get. I wanted one of the two that comes with the PID controller. Either the RCBS Pro Melt 2 or the Lyman Mag 25. I have finally decided on going with the analog controlled Lee Pro 4 20lb instead. The PIDs are priced at ~$260 and the Pro 4 at ~$77.
My plan is to build my own PID controller for the Lee pot. I can build one for ~ $50 or less in a nice compact package with fused inputs and outputs. It will utilize a solid state relay to control power to the Lee pot. I'll use a K-type probe for monitoring the melt. I am a retired electronics tech and the build seems very simple and inexpensive now that I have looked at all of the pieces needed.
My thinking beyond saving ~$130 (which will buy some lead or a nice NOE 4 cavity mold) is that if the pot or the PID controller goes bad, I can more cheaply replace/repair either one instead of a $260 built-in one. I can also use the separate DIY PID controller for other stuff too, like melting down wheel weights at a controlled temp to sort out zinc weights which melt at a higher temp than lead. Anyways, just my thoughts.
Keith, you made a good choice by building your own PID and using the LEE 20 pounder. All you need is a PID controller, probe and a SSR (solid state relay) which will cost you way less than $100.00 for the components. Over the years I have built 4 of them for various projects and I believe that it is necessary for good casting. There is a lot of DIY information on Cast boolets site. I ended using a old gutted out PC power supply case with fan and switches to install the components in.
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Thanks Bob! I happened to have signed up on the cast boolit site just yesterday. I'll have to look for the PID build section.
I also discovered on that site that I could order some lead from TheCaptain much cheaper than from Rotometals. Just wondering if that would be a go way to go for consistent boolits. It is reclaimed WW lead ingots.
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Trig, W-W may be much harder than what you want. Have you checked with a recycling metal scrap yard? I find a LOT of both pure lead,and indoor range lead fro PD's that are pure in jackets. The Jackets simply float to th4e surface.
I've Been paying around a buck a pound or less.
I do add a tiny bit of Tin for crisp fill out. ;)
Mike
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Oh ,and a "very smart move" in joining CastBoolits .com.
Many life times of experience there. ;) 8)
I rarely post there. I keep my eyes open, mouth shut and do my best to learn and absorb what I can use from them.
My handle there is LongRangeAir.
Their AG section is kinda pitiful. Mostly rank amature springer shooter that don't' seem to have a clue about anything for high power ag's. LOL
Mike
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Trig, W-W may be much harder than what you want. Have you checked with a recycling metal scrap yard? I find a LOT of both pure lead,and indoor range lead fro PD's that are pure in jackets. The Jackets simply float to th4e surface.
I've Been paying around a buck a pound or less.
I do add a tiny bit of Tin for crisp fill out. ;)
Mike
I haven't done any local lead searches just yet. I am hoping my local range will let me bring a screen box and shovel to dig through the dirt berms for lead. Maybe I'll have some luck there, especially after I become an RSO volunteer there. I'd feel better about working with range lead than wheel weights. Just no experience casting yet to know which way to turn. I do want precision boolits. It could be that lead is lead and that's the bottom line. I lack experience, but have been learning a lot by reading post from you pros.
I really like the Rotometals lead that is already ready to go, and I can select 2% tin, and in the easy to work nuggets. Just am a frugal shopper wanting to save where I can being retired.
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Trig, I don't know what kind of range it is, however, it may very well be full of Antimony. Bad choice for the AG's. Same issues as with wheel weights, but eve nor so. A few people have used my private range, an I find bullets that are hard a rocks. You don't want such thing is you melt.
Many scrap yards have pure in the forum of vent tubes from homes and commercial buildings. It is super source to find, pure, and low cost. Much of it has tar, or silicone sealer on it, but comes off in the cleaning in the smelting poot. Don't put any lead into you casting pot before cleaning it. ;)
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Trig, I don't know what kind of range it is, however, it may very well be full of Antimony. Bad choice for the AG's. Same issues as with wheel weights, but eve nor so. A few people have used my private range, an I find bullets that are hard a rocks. You don't want such thing is you melt.
Many scrap yards have pure in the forum of vent tubes from homes and commercial buildings. It is super source to find, pure, and low cost. Much of it has tar, or silicone sealer on it, but comes off in the cleaning in the smelting poot. Don't put any lead into you casting pot before cleaning it. ;)
That's good to know! So I need to focus more on pure lead. I do know that soft lead creates less fouling in the barrel verses hard leads from shooting my tight .22 MMHF barrel. These boolits starting out that I'm wanting to make are for my .357 Slayer, and will be pushed at 900 FPS and above for the most part. I'll have to take a trip to our local scrapyard and see what I can find. It is a very large facility. They should have a lead section.
The PB range I go to has an 18 lane rifle range and a pistol range. There is every kind of gun being shot there. I would assume a lot of FM jackets.
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Heck, just look up the number and give the scrap yard a call! ;)
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TT
If you are going to buy lead at a scrapper yard,
you might want to get a set of these pencils for testing the hardness, see info here,
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=149581.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=149581.0)
That way you know you are getting soft lead etc.
HtH's,
Tia,
Don
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Keith I think that you should stick with Rotometals because recycled wheel weights are great for powder Burners but a little too hard for Pellets/slugs and you will never know what percentage is tin. I own a automobile repair shop so I have a large supply of old wheel weights. Right now 70-80% of clip-on wheel weights are discarded due to being Zinc, pot metal or Iron, so a small percentage is a lead alloy. 90% of the stick on weights are 98-100% lead and that is what I have been using for casting pellets and Black Powder balls. I do add 1% Tin by weight that I get from melting down Thrift Shop Pewter to aid in fill out. If you order 1% Tin and 99% Lead from Rotometals that what you will receive, guaranteed.
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Thanks Bob, I just placed an order for 40:1 from Rotometals after reading through Don's lead hardness test thread (thanks Don). I am wanting the least fuss for the most consistent boolits. With quality lead and a PID controlled pot, I should be well on my way. I didn't buy the Slayer to run trash lead through it.
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Personally I use only pure lead but I'm using it only for .25 and .22 caliber pellets and slugs.
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Personally I use only pure lead but I'm using it only for .25 and .22 caliber pellets and slugs.
As far as lead fouling, I'll be using lube, so I should be OK there I'm thinking. As far as hardness on game, I'm thinking a little better skull penetration. I can always change the ratio by adding in pure lead if 40:1 is to hard. I don't plan on quenching them either.
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You wont' find 40-1 to hard. It will only help the lead not to explode on impact. Especially in HP bullets. It is still very soft. ;)
If you can find roof flashing and exhaust stack lead at the yard, it is pure. And easy to tell, as it is very bendable with not effort. Just a simple fingernail test is all you need once you have done it enough to know what to look for and how it feels when pure. The Rotometals will give you a base to know what to look for. it is all I used at first. But I shoot so much, it became almost too expensive. I go thru 200 to 400 cast bullets a day, weather permitting. It just comes with experience. ;) ;)
Yep, wheel weights are a real gamble. Not only do they have far too much antimony in them, many have zinc. Zink can ruin your entire melt. GRRRRR!!! Stick on however, is good stuff! 8) But they are now starting to show up with other things in them, and man, it can be a pita!!!
Knife
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I want to add that in my research, I got the impression that one needs at least 1-2% tin for better fill out. I didn't go 99.9% lead because of that.
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I'm very fortunate not to have arthritis like many folks my age do, pouring with a ladle would probably be a problem if I did.
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The last thing I have to decide on is which mold to start out with for use in the .357 Slayer. I have the lead and everything else on the way except the mold(s). I'll be going with the NOE sizing equipment.
I like the price of the Lee molds, but don't see any that really grab me. The NOE molds are plentiful, but hard to decide on which one for deer and hogs. Any input will be appreciated.
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well twist rate and fpe is going to tell you what rounds are right... that and seeing what has worked for other Slayer owners...
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well twist rate and fpe is going to tell you what rounds are right... that and seeing what has worked for other Slayer owners...
1:26 in twist, 275 FPE average with 142gr. I have tried a few from Carl, but am wanting to get more input from Slayer owners.
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Are you getting good accuracy with the bullets listed ? If so stick with something similar, unless you hear reports of super bullets that is ;D
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I have not cast the first boolit yet. My casting equipment is on the way. However, Carl (Kenectic45^) has sent me some of his cast bullets from NOE moulds to try in my .357 Slayer.
Below is the mould I purchased to start learning to cast with. It's a Bob design mould (BBT), and has the weight and HP I'm looking for, for deer/hog hunting (152gr in HP w/40:1).
I have had some good accuracy results with this boolit on paper at 100 yards, but have plans to dial it in even more with tuning, sizing, lubes etc. There are other lighter boolit moulds I'm interested in from NOE and others for paper punching and smaller game, but I will wait for a discount code for those.
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Well today was the day I cast my first 100 boolits. I'll just say I can appreciate those that have mastered this art. Nonetheless, it was a good first experience for me. Most of the boolits will be culled, but I did get about 25% I feel real good about.
I had a tough time in the beginning getting the boolits to drop off of the pins in my 4-cavity HP mold. I found myself pulling them off with pliers, then dumping them back in the pot. I finally brought out the LP torch and cranked up the mould temp. This helped in getting them to drop off of the pins. I can't wait until I get my DIY PID built. The Lee pot is all over the place with its rheostat temp control. I also have a hot plate coming that will help to get the mould up to temp.
I can see my mistake was to start out with a NOE 4-pin HP mould. That has to be the toughest type of mould for a newb to start out with. I should've listened to Kenectic45^'s advice and ordered the 2-cavity instead. The good news is, if I can master this one, I should be golden on the FN moulds. For a spell, I did resort to just using only two of the cavities which helped. I then moved on to using all four.
I will have to figure out why the HP tips don't have good fill out. My guess is still too cold of a mould, or I'm not pouring correctly, or fast enough. I'll figure it out. The good news is that the bases are perfect.
I did size some to .358 and that part was very easy.
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I don't smoke molds or use mold release any more, just boiled degreased blocks.
But I've found that a bit of dry graphite spray just on the pin tips works. On NOE molds, with the mold open, drop a piece of paper 'backstop' between the block half and the tilted out pins and spray just the cone lightly.
Then, you have to run hotter for HP. I run 740 on the pot (750+ is when you start having issues with the tin) and heat the mold a little hotter by dipping the front lower corners of the mold into the pot for (closed of course) for about 10 seconds. Then I preheat the spru by putting just a 1/2 inch of the tab into the molten lead for 6 or 7 seconds ( put a little synthetic two cycle oil on that end and the lead will not stick at all to the spru plate).
Cast the first pour, cut the spru but don't dump and if spru lube not applied do so to the underside of the plate VERY LIGHTLY and a swipe across the top of the blocks around the lead showing, getting none to the lead so it doesn't contaminated the cavity. I also put a tiny drop on the spru hinge bolt where it pivits on the block to prevent wear/galling.
Dump and go to town casting at a high rate of speed to keep the mold hot.
If it is a bit cold there will be a bubble form at the tip of the pin. Or if your not filling right that can happen too but experience is needed there... experiment with different fill rates and angles to see what worked for you
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Thanks! I'm thinking i had the pot too hot and the mould got too cool fiddling with trying to get them to drop off the pins. I could tell having the correct temps are the key to good cast. The good news is I didn't get any burns to myself on my first run. I'm certainly not use to working with these types of temps. I was very careful to avoid pot splash, etc.
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There should be a sticky about CASTING SAFETY and other associated dangers.
Not just burns but fumes and inadvertantly ingesting.
Lead being handled leaves traces on the skin which can be transferred to other surfaces then transported to the mouth, nostrils (pick your nose?) or eyes and enter the body which builds up long term.
I don't wear gloves like I should because I lose too much dexteraty but I don't eat or drink anything in the casting area and wash my hands and face before I do every time I leave the area to do so.
That actually applied when sorting, weighing and swaging bullets too... handling pellets or swaged/cast bullets leaves lead on your skin! Got tested last year and after 50 years of casting my lead levels are waaaay too high and I was ALWAYS careful!
I have used wax to flux with along with sawdust to cover my melt and keep the tin oxides down and had to learn to always set up in a well ventilated area because the fumes are carcinogenic and will have lead molecules too. So I always have the air blowing from behind me towards the pot and exhausting out.
Mostly I use the non-fuminf Franklin Flux now and still use sawdust
Years ago I was in the Philippines and watching a guy casting wearing shorts and flip-flops and no shirt and I commented to another guy beside me that you would never catch me mixing molten lead with so much bare skin... about that time he somehow caught the pot edge with the mold and dumped it across the table and enough ran off the edge to dribble on him as he jumped back.
NASTY, no skin, raw meat thighs with some on the tops of his feet and splatter on his belly too.
I may not wear the gloves I should but even in Texas summer heat I wear long pants and shirt!
I am also very cautious about putting lead into the pot because any trace of water will cause a steam explosion, blowing molten lead all over. Range scrap is especially prone to pockets of water!!!!! I usually set the scrap in a can on my hot plate to preheat and drive off / dry any moisture.
I don't plunk chunks of lead into the melt either when refilling. I use an old serving spoon I bought at a resale shop to put the lead on then move it to the pot above the surface and tilt it into the molten metal so no splashing. Bar halves I use some old channel locks to lower the lead in.
Small wire gauge extension cords and high amperage lead pots (+ maybe a hot plate too?) lead to you discovering something cavemen discovered long ago - 🔥
Others may use slightly different safety methoids but everyone should be doing it / casting, with thought to safety and living a long healthy life
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+1 for safety. When you get your physical you can order a heavy metal test. My doc was skeptical, but I told him I handle lead regularly, and come across other heavy metals. Im always careful, but I do have more than the average Joe. Not dangerous, but it's something to monitor.
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I put the first casts on a grain scale to see what is going on with the four different cavities. I believe the spreadsheet reveals the four unique cavities. Now the trick will be to adjust the pins to bring them closer together.
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Hummm
I'm going to say that after you get your pins closer together, you probably might consider culling anything under 151 gr ( with 1:40 alloy, go lighter with more tin) right off the bat because they are probably underweight due to an internal void caused by a bubble that gets trapped in the solidifying lead. That's why you don't want a turbulent pour and why I try to avoid impinging the stream on the spru plate cone. Yes, some people say they hit the edge on purpose to swirl the lead in but I found it leads to a lot of weight variation if you ACTUALLY WEIGH every bullet. Plus you have HP edge fill out problems where a fold appears on the nose of the bullet - will not make much difference at 50 or much you see at 100 but at longer ranges it is just enough imbalance to cause larger groups. The major problem with a bubble void is not bullet weight but that I guarantee it is not on the centerline and an off balance spinning bullet will not fly as true.
The dilemma is determining if you have a pin depth set problem or bubbles... actually, you should be able to set the pins by eye in their groove with the block half off the handle. You might be a couple thousands off but it will only affect the weight .2 or .3, maybe .4 but I doubt it. Use a bright light and a magnifying glass if you have too but with the naked eye most people can see .005 difference (the thickness of the average piece of paper) between two things like the bottom edge of the block and the groove cut in the pin... just set them all the same because the tolerances they were made to ensures consistent length on the other end. Don't bother to chase the 1/2 gr weight for a shallow or deeper pin if all the cavities are casting the same. So what if you are casting bullets that are .5 heavier than another person if yours are all consistant.?
Because the secret to accuracy in centerfire cartridge reloading, bullet casting or shooting technique is CONSISTENCY.
Also, a lot of precision shooters don't mix cavities at all. They may use them all but mark the wall of each cavity with a TINY unique scratch and sort first by cavity THEN start weighing per cavity for voids. Then when they shoot, they zero for that particular weight. When they run out of that weight the switch to another cavities batch of bullets. Note that you have to cast many more bullets to batch by cavities, haha. Casting 200 bullets in a 4 cavity mold woul only give you 4 ea 50 bullet batches pre culling and weighing😁.
When I used to do that I cast 2000 bullets so I had batches of 500 from each cavity! Easier to just buy two or even one cavity molds for lots of reasons if you stop ego obsessing about "production numbers" and go for quality. And learn to be in a Zen state because casting can be relaxing instead of stressful! ! !
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Yes, all of these will be culled. I just wanted to get some sort of view/idea/comparison of how my first run did. I won't be bending anything until I get a handle on the pour, but will take a closer look at the pin alignments.
I'm not able to use the Lee guide due to the pin brackets, so it's all freehanded. I did try to center up the cavity entrance before each pour, but can say I had trouble doing that. I think I will need to increase the pour rate as well. I did have the stream coming out fairly slow to prevent overrun on the sprue and splash. It's a fine line there to get the actual pour just right. I need more practice for sure. I still consider the first trial still went fairly decent and learned a few things.
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Yes, all of these will be culled. I just wanted to get some sort of view/idea/comparison of how my first run did. I won't be bending anything until I get a handle on the pour, but will take a closer look at the pin alignments.
I'm not able to use the Lee guide due to the pin brackets, so it's all freehanded. I did try to center up the cavity entrance before each pour, but can say I had trouble doing that. I think I will need to increase the pour rate as well. I did have the stream coming out fairly slow to prevent overrun on the sprue and splash. It's a fine line there to get the actual pour just right. I need more practice for sure. I still consider the first trial still went fairly decent and learned a few things.
I've actually found I get better fill out with NOT stopping the pour too soon and getting a small puddle on top of the spru plate. You want a BIG puddle to put heat into the plate so the lead does not solidify too fast so the puddle can feed a bit more down into the cavity as the lead cools and shrinks. If you starve the puddle you will notice you get pinhole voids in the bullet base. What's happening is the lead touching the mold solidifies first from the outside in and it shrinks. Without some extra you end up with a hollow core bullet, that's actually the purpose of the cone in the spru plate, it's not really a funnel, it's a reservoir! (And a cutting edge as a dual purpose) But in reality it's too small and hence the puddle on top!
Also, I let the stream continue a second longer and even let it overflow off the side a bit as that extra pressure makes the base of the bullet fill out perfectly every time and so I don't get a tiny radius base edge which gives weight variation.
Hey, the extra large spru's just go back into the pot and don't slow production down much, haha.
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One thing fore sure is that all of my bases are near perfect. Almost like a mirror, very flat and filled out. The tips on the other hand need much work. They are not even all the way around, but are smooth. It's like an 1/8th to a 1/4th of it has a shallow dip in it. I would say close to 90% of them are this way.
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Today was my second attempt at casting .357 cal slugs for the Slayer. The casting went much smoother, and the slugs look much better than the first attempt with having a fully filled out HP tip.
This was all thanks to Knifemaker Mike and his input regarding fluxing, rendering, temps and pins to mention just some of his years of knowledge shared via the phone this morning.
I really do appreciate all of the tips received via the phone and on the GTA from Mike and Carl (Kinetic45^). These two have really shortened my learning curve on casting slugs. I feel much better going forward having had their knowledge shared with me. Thanks fellas!
I probably cast close to around 350-400 today!
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According to Chairgun, it looks like I can get away with a couple grains of weight difference out to 100 yards with not much of a POI difference. I'll have to do some actual testing/shooting to know for sure if this holds true or not.
Here are the weights on a few I sized to .357
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Those new bullets look great Keith . How are they shooting ?
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Those new bullets look great Keith . How are they shooting ?
Thanks! I have no clue how they group just yet. It has been raining for days around here and more is expected. I am hoping for good results.
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You are very welcome Keith! and Those look fantastic. Not bad Sir! Not bad a all!!! 8)
If you hit a snag, I'm here most of the time now days. LOL!
I was in the same boat when RC guided me along the path of the "Silver Stream". And what a journey it has been. ;)
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I received my ordered hot plate and electronic BBQ thermometer today. It's the same thermometer NOE sells so the probe fits in the mould.
I ran a test today using both, and this is going to work very well with heating up and tracking the mould temp.
I also received a new set of mould brackets. I polished the pins and put these on. I'm looking forward to my next cast with these new items.
My focus now will be fine tuning my process for more consistent slug weights.
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The probes make all the difference, just remember the pins will take longer to warm up than the mold block.
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I cast another ~ 500 today! I'm starting to dial the weights in more evenly now.
The new hot plate and electronic temp gauge really helps to keep the temp up on the mould. I'm still waiting on the PID controller from China for the Lee pot. My actual pours are not yet consistent, but am working on that. I also paid more attention to the rendering of the lead/tin along the way.
I sized at random a handful or two out of the large batch to .357 and .358 to check the weights, and to have for test shooting groups. I shot a few .359 in my indoor pellet trap and had no trouble seating or shooting them in the Slayer.
Here is my sample batch that I sized:
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I am really pleased with the cast results from yesterday. The slugs are well filled out and have flat tips and bases. I have been using a piece of copy paper to smooth out any burs I find, which seems to be working really well. I am not sure how they stack up against the pros, but they are much improved verses my first casting attempt.
I have been weighing and sorting them by 1grain weights. I am getting lots of 152 and 153 grain weights, and less of the 154 and 151 weights. I am sorting them by 1 grain weights in separate tins so that when I shoot a tin all will be within 1 grain or less of each other.
What I don't know is if this is normal results with a four cavity mould or not. I might start tweaking the pins at some point to see the results. I am not sure how these results I am getting stacks up against the pros.
Anyways, I am having fun! I will soon be testing these in .359, .358 and .357 diameters at the range...
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To late, he's let the Silver Stream infect his blood...
There's no hope for him now, the addiction will cause him to buy more molds and place them on Galena's alter to appease her.
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I wouldn't worry to much about lead in your blood from casting. Not at the temps we cast the lead. You will get far more lead from indoor traps, indoor ranges,and head winds when shooting cast, particularly from PB's than you ever will in the casting room.
Well, unless one of my buddies and you cast at insane temps. He actually tore into his RCBS to raise the temps. A LOT!!! :o
Your results are looking very good Trig!
Mike
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I was saying he'd caught the casting bug, not that he had actual lead contamination.
Sorry, I left for a while because I just can't seem to be funny and every time I try I F up.
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I read that lead had to be at 1000F before fumes start getting in the air, you're right Michael about not having to worry too much about lead getting in your system from casting. My doc at the VA said that they tested some people that were doing extensive indoor shooting with powder burners and their lead levels did go up but didn't get in the danger zone.
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I was saying he'd caught the casting bug, not that he had actual lead contamination.
Sorry, I left for a while because I just can't seem to be funny and every time I try I F up.
LOL, I knew what you meant right away. Yeah, I got the "silver stream" bad right now. I hope NOE hurries up with the/your new mold build. I definitely want that one.
P.S. I'm told by my brother that he has 25lbs of pure lead waiting for me when we hook up to go hog hunting in a few weeks. :)
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I am looking for a good mould recommendation for a .25 cal Marauder. Anywhere from 32gr to 37 gr would work for me. Accuracy tested would be ideal with the velocities tested at. THANKS!
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Other than pellet molds, I don't know of any that light other than the BBT's. i would be interested in knowing however.
In all the test I have performed with different barrels, bullets in the 47 to 55 gr stay the most accurate at different ranges.
The NOE pellets that Bob designed do very well in slower twist barrels. In 14-1 however, not so well.
They really like the 1-18 twist I'm shooting them in now. 8)
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I think NOE has one in either 35gr or 37gr in the works.
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I think NOE has one in either 35gr or 37gr in the works.
@rsterne
How's progress on this with Al?
I checked with him on my new .357 slug and he said he's trying to get time to finish the drawing and get the cherry made. Not my place to ask on the other bullets so I didn't.
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I finished the PID build today for my Lee Pro 4 20lb casting pot. I am hoping with more constant lead temperatures that my cast will be even better and more consistent.
(https://i.ibb.co/BqJXBz1/PID-build-03.png)
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Nice.
Will make a big difference on the Lee pot
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+ What Dyotat100 said
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Really nice Keith !!!
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Thanks fellas!
Here's the rear view and thermocouple I'll use, which is rated at 1,472° max. The room inside is a little tight so I had to shift things around for the best fit.
I installed a fuse for the AC input and also the power going to the PID for safety sakes. The SSR (Solid State Relay) is rated at 40 amps and is sitting on a large heatsink. A little overkill, but should last and stay cool. With the K-type plug installed, I can use it for other stuff like my BBQ grill with a different thermocouple.
(https://i.ibb.co/RhjrmXY/PID-build-02.jpg)
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Man,I'm liking That! If only. :( One day though! ;)
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Boy-O- boy I'm on a roll now! ;) I cast a bunch of slugs today with the new DIY PID controller installed on the Lee Pro 4. One thing you don't have to worry with is runaway temps as the lead supply drops down.
My goal was to end up with 152.5gr slugs as that's what my Slayer is tuned for in the low 900"s sized to .358. Hit that goal after trying different temps. I started at 715° and that was too low. I was getting 151gr. I went up to 725° and that was too much as I was getting more in the 153gr area. I settled at 721° and that was perfect. I was then getting 152.5gr on average, Perfect!!!
I will say this may all just be in my head, but cast after cast I got the bulk at 152.xx at 721°.
Anyways that's my story and experience today. I will continue with this temp if it works.
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Woo-Hoo!!! 8)
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Woo-Hoo!!! 8)
Oh yeah! I just weighed and sorted 127 of them. All within 152.xx. I sorted them to within 152.20gr and 152.88gr. I only had to cull a small handful that didn't match that criteria. Those probably would have been fine too, but I'm still testing them in the Slayer and want to stay tight for now.
I forgot to mention that after polishing the pins, the slugs dropped off like butter on the first run and then started sticking again causing damage while trying to get them to drop off. I then lubed the tips of the pins with spru lube like you mentioned. That works great! They drop off like butter now. In fact, they drop off as soon as I open the mould. After awhile I have to reapply the lube, but it does work great using a small amount on a Q-tip and being careful not to get any on the mould. Thanks for that tip!
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You are more than welcome. A touch of the lube right after the polish will protect them better, and prolong the easy drop.
I am very tempted to try a touch of Flitz metal Wax and see what happens after a polish.
Well, time to head out the the shop. Pot is heating. Bad Storms coming. Gotta get with it. ;D
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Got Er did. another 600 of the short .25420's. 8)
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When they started this "Boolit and Pellet Casting" forum I honestly didn't think that it would be as busy as it is, I guess I was wrong though because every now and then another member comes out of the woodwork and will coment or post in this forum that I had no idea was even making slugs or pellets.
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Got Er did. another 600 of the short .25420's. 8)
Up casting all night ??? . That sounds like what I'll be doing once the heat hits. 600 is a lot ;)
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When they started this "Boolit and Pellet Casting" forum I honestly didn't think that it would be as busy as it is, I guess I was wrong though because every now and then another member comes out of the woodwork and will coment or post in this forum that I had no idea was even making slugs or pellets.
I figured it would crank up once folks could find it.
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When they started this "Boolit and Pellet Casting" forum I honestly didn't think that it would be as busy as it is, I guess I was wrong though because every now and then another member comes out of the woodwork and will coment or post in this forum that I had no idea was even making slugs or pellets.
Closet Casters. LOL!!!
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When they started this "Boolit and Pellet Casting" forum I honestly didn't think that it would be as busy as it is, I guess I was wrong though because every now and then another member comes out of the woodwork and will coment or post in this forum that I had no idea was even making slugs or pellets.
Closet Casters. LOL!!!
I laughed my butt off when I seen this ;D
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still laughing
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+ Knifemaker
+ Wayne52
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+ Knifemaker
+ Wayne52
+ Triggertreat
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Heh heh! ;)
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When they started this "Boolit and Pellet Casting" forum I honestly didn't think that it would be as busy as it is, I guess I was wrong though because every now and then another member comes out of the woodwork and will coment or post in this forum that I had no idea was even making slugs or pellets.
I figured it would crank up once folks could find it.
People finding these discussions will also cause more interest and more people will start casting. That means more bullet shooting airguns which may eventually trasform the airgun scene when manufacturers realize there's a market for airguns that can shoot bullets - longer magazines, better twist rates, properly sized bullets available commercially ...
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It would seem that a wave of interest is starting to forum. We now have FX attempting to make slug barrels, and AF is giving it a shot. (although for whatever reason, AF refuses to talk to actual shooters who shoot bullets to get a decent grip on what it takes to perform at a top level).
Fx is really paying attention. With all the naysayers of FX aside, they are at least the Company trying to do it right. the Mag length, and valveing will make the difference with their offerings, as it is finally being addressed.
Evanix, on the other hand, who already has th4e power, is so far ignoring bullet shooters with the twist rates and mag lengths.
It seems FX has also come out of the closet, while AF is giving it a shot, but still ashamed to really show their stuff. LOL ;D
What we do have are a tiny hand full of mold makers who are paying attention. And for that, I am grateful!
So far, we have NOE, Arsenal, and MP joining the ranks of stocking AG molds. With NOE clearly leading the way.
Knife
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NOE sure has been making some great stuff for sure !!!
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My first ever mould was from NOE. It is a true beauty, and I didn't even want to get it dirty it was so pretty and so well made, lol.
Now that I have got my feet wet with a NOE aluminum mould, I can now understand how a brass or steel mould would retain the heat more reliably, which would translate to more consistent cast ultimately with all other ducks being in a row. I do understand they are much heavier to work with, and more costly, and can get too hot.
One thing that doesn't get mentioned much is the NOE mould handles. I splurged and got those, and am glad I did. I can see how being so well made they can take my newb abuse over some other brand offerings, with having the through pin attached handles instead of the crimped on handles just to mention one part of them.
I'm really glad I went the NOE route for the mould, handles, and the sizing dies. Very top rate equipment and a real pleasure to cast with.
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I cast bullets for the Hammer while in development and they settled on .500 for size. Weights ran from 330 grains to 550, there's a couple of hunting videos and I think they used the 330. We also HTC coated some but reported best accuracy with a naked bullet. I'm not sure who's bullets they are going to sell with the gun but not ours.
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Wish I could find a .177 bullet mold .. Search to no avail ... I have all the casting equipment, pot, pure lead , tin ,pid controller, 4" blower to not so good the fumes and deposit them 20 feet away.. Just wish I had a use for all of it..
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Ray
+2 on a 17 cal mold, I would want a RN domed style etc. ;D
Thanks,
Don
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I made my first pile of 25 cal slugs today. This was with the NOE 250-41-FN-BK2 BT 5 cavity mould. I have sorted just 57 so far out of the pile. All weighed between 40.56gr and 40.98gr...only a 0.42gr difference. I used pure lead from a sheet off of an old X-ray room door. I ran the PID controlled melt at 715°.
The question still remains as to whether or not they will shoot straight out of my Marauder tuned around 55 FPE. Could be all for nothing.
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I made my first pile of 25 cal slugs today. This was with the NOE 250-41-FN-BK2 BT 5 cavity mould. I have sorted just 57 so far out of the pile. All weighed between 40.56gr and 40.98gr...only a 0.42gr difference. I used pure lead from a sheet off of an old X-ray room door. I ran the PID controlled melt at 715°.
The question still remains as to whether or not they will shoot straight out of my Marauder tuned around 55 FPE. Could be all for nothing.
Well don't just leave us hanging Keith, How they shoot'n? ;D
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Some people are under the impression that slugs will not shoot worth a darn from what some call a non slug barrel however the shorter ones like the 217-30-FN seem to do fine in all my pellet guns, they might not be going as fast as they should be but they do shoot accurately in them. A good example would be last summer when I was on the back porch casting I was using my Master Blaster for yard guard while I was casting up the 30 grain BBT's and I loaded up the clip with them just for the heck of hit and sure enough a prime red squirrel target shows up in my wood pile, I lobbed one of them slugs with the Master Blaster and bingo the red squirrel met his demise :D
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I made my first pile of 25 cal slugs today. This was with the NOE 250-41-FN-BK2 BT 5 cavity mould. I have sorted just 57 so far out of the pile. All weighed between 40.56gr and 40.98gr...only a 0.42gr difference. I used pure lead from a sheet off of an old X-ray room door. I ran the PID controlled melt at 715°.
The question still remains as to whether or not they will shoot straight out of my Marauder tuned around 55 FPE. Could be all for nothing.
Well don't just leave us hanging Keith, How they shoot'n? ;D
It's coming. I'm almost to scared to try them having spent so much money and time on them. We will know soon if they will do well or not starting out around 50 FPE +. I gotta get my Synrod ready and tuned for them first before putting them on paper, plus figuring out what to size them at.
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I know what you mean, it is always kind pucker time. ;D
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I recently dabbled a little with tin sorta, what I did was add about 30 GTO pellets in a small mix in my pot and the whiskers were a little out of control at times but I did get over half as being good. I know for sure that if I start using tin in my mix I'll need to control the temperature more closely because without doing that there's always going to be problems. I guess it time I finally picked up a new pot with temp control on it and I'll have to get me a thermometer as well. The simplicity of the pure lead casting sure is nice though.
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Wayne, with your success I wouldn't change a thing.
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I have received a number of PMs asking what my casting setup consist of. I'm putting this post together to avoid retyping so much. Feel free to add your recommendations, too.
I would like to avoid input on dip casting. This particular post is focused on bottom pour pot casting. That said, I will caution anyone to not to use your bottom pour pot for smelting dirty lead, or using sawdust to remove dross from the lead (which is popular) in your bottom pour pot. Both will clog the exit spout. It's best to use another pot for cleaning heavily soiled lead first.
I use paraffin wax to render my lead, which basically mixes the tin back into the lead. This brand can be found cheap at most grocery stores. Many other products can also be used like bees wax. These products will smoke you out and also ignite when the pot is hot enough. I would recommend outdoor casting or a very well ventilated area. I cast very near the entrance door to my shed with a large fan drawing out the smoke and fumes. You really don't want to inhale this stuff.
(https://i.ibb.co/Z1z7dK7/Gulf-Wax.jpg)
I use Frankford-Arsenal-Cleancast-Lead-Flux to clean my lead of minor dross. I also use it to coat the top of my lead while casting to prevent oxygen from entering the lead once clean and separating out the tin again.
(https://i.ibb.co/4FgPWHM/Frankford-Arsenal-Cleancast-Lead-Flux.jpg)
The melting pot I use is this one. The Lee Precision model 90947 Pro 4-20. It's a 110 volt 20lb bottom pour pot. 20 pound capacity is far easier to work with than a 10lb and last longer between refills of the lead supply. The spout shaft on this one is vertical and not angled, which helps to seal better and limit leakage. It is easy to adjust the flow rate, which will be required to keep the same flow rate as the lead level drops. I would call having to adjust this a con when using this pot, but at least it is easy and quick to do.
I would recommend starting your lead temps for casting around 800°. lead starts melting at around 626°. I usually cast around 825° to 850°, which works for my 150gr slugs. Don't be afraid to experiment to find what temps work best for your cast.
(https://i.ibb.co/5GWcB7Y/Lee-90947-Pro-4-20-20lb-pot.jpg)
I would not recommend this pot or any other pot without it having a PID temperature controller. This pot only comes with a rheostat, which is awful at controlling lead temps consistently. As the lead level drops, the lead temp increases with just having a rheostat.
To remedy the rheostat temp control issue, I built my own DIY PID controller. Now my lead temps stay consistent regardless of the lead level, so my cast are now more consistent, too. The pot is plugged into the PID controllers output, and the pots rheostat is turned to its highest setting and ignored.
(https://i.ibb.co/BqJXBz1/PID-build-03.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/RhjrmXY/PID-build-02.jpg)
Here are some YT links that are good to use as a how to to build your own DIY PID controller if you choose this route. It's a very easy build and the parts are listed at the bottom of the video(s).
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=158723.msg155780761#msg155780761 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=158723.msg155780761#msg155780761)
I went a different route and purchased this kit on eBay
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-F-C-PID-Temperature-Controller-TA4-SNR-K-Type-Probe-40A-SSR-Heat-Sink/292039794173 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-F-C-PID-Temperature-Controller-TA4-SNR-K-Type-Probe-40A-SSR-Heat-Sink/292039794173)
My project case was a used PC power supply from eBay. The switches, fuse holders and terminal strips, etc. were from various other sources like WM. Whichever was the cheapest. None of my casting setup equipment came from Amazon (too expensive).
Another option is purchase a built-in PID controlled bottom pour melting pot like the Lyman model 2800382 Mag 25. I did not choose this route based on the cost of this one at the time, plus my thoughts were, with my route taken, if the Mag 25 were to go bad in any way I would be out a PID controller and a melting pot. With my setup, I can simply replaced just one component and would not have to replace all components.
(https://i.ibb.co/xmy2QT8/Lyman-2800382-Mag-25.jpg)
The remaining components of my casting setup include a digital thermometer for monitoring the temps on my NOE moulds. This is the one that I use. You can find this one on the NOE website. I found one much cheaper elsewhere, but can't remember where, but is the exact same one offered from NOE. I order all NOE moulds drilled so I can use the digital thermometer to keep up with the mould temps.
(https://i.ibb.co/kQZ9pfd/Digital-thermometer.jpg)
For sizing my cast, I use the Lee Challenger Press. It works great with the NOE sizing die kit and their sizing bushings. It can be mounted upside down which makes sizing very easy and fast. The slugs/pellets drop down into the Lee cup that I order separately off eBay. I added some foam to the bottom of the cup for a soft landing.
(https://i.ibb.co/4YcD3gt/Lee-90588-Breech-lock-Challenger-Press.jpg)
I use NOE handles on my moulds. The Lee handles are cheaper, but the NOE handles are of high quality. You will be beating on your handles to knock out the slugs on occasion, especially before the moulds are good and hot. You'll need quality handles like the NOE handles. Mine have never given any trouble through my learning curve. I would suspect the Lee's would have separated having gone through my newb torture sessions.
The only other tool I use is a Lee ladle. It's cheap but works great. it allows me to dip out dross and stir the lead up from the bottom. It also allows me to add a quantity of rejected slugs at a time back into the pot safely without getting splattered with hot molten lead. I would caution you to rest the ladle on top of the molten lead before diving into the lead with it. Any condensation below the lead surface will explode violently beyond what you may think. Never allow any moisture below the lead surface. This includes your sweat droppings. It's really bad to do so...
(https://i.ibb.co/GkymfrQ/Lee-Ladle.jpg)
That's about it on my casting setup. My process and advice is to not add any lead, like from sprue cuts, lead dripping, or any rejects back into the lead pot until it is time to resupply the lead pot. This will prevent you from breaking the top surface and allowing oxygen back in. Add all this lead back in at one time. Then add a small amount of paraffin wax back in and stir well to render the tin back into the lead. After that add just a small pinch of Frankford in (or whatever) and stir to remove any dross. After that add a couple of more pinches of Frankford to cover the top surface to block out oxygen. Don't break that seal again until it's time to resupply the pot again due to low lead levels and poor pour spout performance.
Now that you are well on your way at casting, why not recycle as much lead as you can by building a lead trap to shoot at. Here is a link to the one I built for use with capturing lead indoors using my up to 300 FPE .357 Slayer. It will stop a 300 FPE slug at only 10 feet away from the muzzle indoors. I use it every time I can along with all my other guns. It's like shooting for free, but does take some time to sort the lead from the rubber mulch.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=152077.msg155685378#msg155685378 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=152077.msg155685378#msg155685378)
I hope at least some of this helps someone else. Much of my knowledge came from others here on the GTA sharing their knowledge. I am by no means an expert, but have had some good success at casting using the above equipment and procedures.
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Great write up Keith. I think you may have solved one of my problems with oxidizing . I always cut the spru and it went directly back in the pot . I never had a barrier between the lead and air . I’ll have to get myself some sort of barrier agent . Thanks .
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Yep, good stuff Keith!
I also never introduce lead while actually casting. Only when time to replenish and bring back up to heat. Putting the spru cut off in chile casting also changed the temp at the bottom of the pot. Exactly where you don't want it changed.
I used the F. Arsenal white powder of ryears. Until I learned the the 20 mule team Borax at he g. Store was the sam thing, and a fraction of the price. LOL!
When using tin n the mix, I try to keep the temp under 745-50 to prevent tin separation.
If pure lead, I raise it to 825 for best base squareness. It they start to round even a little on the based, I will hit the spru plate with a touch of propane torch, or dip the end of the plate in the melt. You want the plate HOT!!!
Knife
Closet Caster ;D
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Borax you say , I’ll pick some up on the way home tonight .
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Thanks for chiming in Knife. It's always good to get confirmation and additional tips from closet caster masters.
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Thanks for chiming in Knife. It's always good to get confirmation and additional tips from closet caster masters.
Man, I've got to stop posting when asleep. I can't even read my writing. LOL :-[
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Borax is amazing stuff for a whole lot of uses. A guy I worked with treated the salmon eggs he got when cleaning fish with borax to preserve them, they worked fantastic for catching steelhead too.
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Next time Im in my local IGA I will pick up a box of borax and try it.
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I have a Lyman Mag25 and have found I have more consistent boolit pours with it set at around 790 degrees I had been running it at 810+- and it would start dripping a little