GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Benjamin Airguns => Topic started by: Kinetic45^ on December 16, 2018, 12:52:44 PM
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While waiting for my custom FLEX+ in .357 to be developed (Cothran valve max opened, titanium tube 2" longer for longer plenum and higher FPE, custom barrel retention system Jim tells me he really likes after he built it to my specs. 20" twist Green Mountain barrel turned down instead of a TJ)… I bought a Pitbull "Mega" which is an opened up Bulldog with built on moderator.
Factory porting on the Bulldog is .201 (#7 drill size) and Pitbull opens that up to .302 which is an increase of 80%.
I have shot it at 50 and 100 yards with slugs ranging from 94 gr to 155gr and I was impressed with the accuracy of several of the slugs.
These are not range results but done on my dedicated indoor tuning chrony station with rifle vise and 500W halogen lighting reflected off the white ceiling (I have never gotten an error in what I would guess is around 2500 shots). Distance from muzzle to chrony is 5 feet. Temp is 68 degrees and humidity is 50%.
The NSA slugs are not lubricated but are shot 'as received'. My cast slugs were sized with a squirt of Lyman 'Quick Slick Case Lube' into a ziploc bag + a couple drops of 10wt synthetic suspension fluid then the bullets (about 50 each batch) kneaded around to coat all the surfaces. They were sized and not cleaned, the residue was left on and they were then shot.
I filled the gun to a CALIBRATED, regulated 3200 PSI each time but it should be noted that the rifle's gauge reads 100 PSI lower but I left all readings not corrected, they are as shown on the rifle. I tried to red the guage to the closest 25 PSI which is real hard on the 1" face, haha.
First bullet is the Lee 358-105 which casts 108gr in 1:40 alloy
1. 3100 780
2. 2990 811
3. 2850 845
4. 2750 920
5. 2625 942
6. 2525 955*
7. 2400 945
8. 2250 925
9. 2050 902
10. 1875 865
11. 1750 839
12. 1575 813
1475
AVG 878
ES 175
SD 60
* FPE at HI = 218
Note that this bullet is quite accurate in the Pitbull and I have had excellent results in my .357 Texan too. The Lee molds are cheap and the selection is limited but they cast well for those on a budget.
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Second bullet is the NSA 110gr spire point, cup base HP.
Nick says this is one of his most popular .35 slugs but 'thank you USPS' because the package I received {with several other weights too in the package}looked like a battered football, the cardboard NSA boxes were crushed and MOST of the bullets had dinged against each other and the cup base edges were so damaged that those did not shoot well. Those that were sorted out undamaged which were less than 10ea out of 50, shot under 1/2 inch at 50 yards.
1. 3100 708
2. 3000 744
3. 2900 796
4. 2800 834
5. 2700 884
6. 2600 921
7. 2500 925*
8. 2350 908
9. 2150 885
10. 2000 856
11. 1800 822
12. 1650 793
13. 1525 760
AVG 833
ES 217
SD 70
*FPE at HI = 208
Note that I continued shooting a couple shots longer to see what the curve was going to do with this weight slug.
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Bullet #3 is the NOE TL357-RF-AU5-RG2 which is a tumble lube gas check design, cast as a HP that comes out 127gr in my 1:40 alloy
I REALLY like this bullet! it casts easily with consistent weight and good fill out. It just barely gets kissed by the .357 sizer die (its a 9mm slug not a .357 Mag) and chambers easily and is quite accurate!
I thought I needed heavier slugs to shoot deer under the new Texas regulations but that got clarified so that if the FPE is over 215 it qualifies and this one does... if it passes my balistic gel testing then this may be the optimum weight for the .357 in the Pitbull. Note I shot FIVE more strings to test the consistency, filling to 2650 and the first three shots (like shots #5, 6,and 7 as shown here) ALL were basically, first: 898/900, 2nd: 908/913 and 3rd at 898/900, every one of those strings!
1. 3100 730
2. 2950 776
3. 2875 817
4. 2775 873
5. 2650 899
6. 2525 910*
7. 2400 898
8. 2250 855
9. 2100 860
10. 1875 826
AVG 847
ES 180
SD 59
*FPE at HI = 233
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It doesn't seem like 3200psi is really doing much for you, and 2700-2800 would be a much better starting place for a good bell curve. Are you doing the 3200psi just for testing consistency? Or do you plan on filling to that pressure for field use?
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Bullet #4 is the Lee 140gr SWC which is another very accurate bullet in my .357 Texan (sized .356, not .357 for some reason?) but shoots 1.5 MOA in the Pitbull (sized .357) at 100 yards in 4 ea 5 shot groups on the regulator. These cast at 142gr with 1:40 alloy
1. 3100 638
2. 3000 660
3. 2875 716
4. 2800 773
5. 2700 819
6. 2600 862*
7. 2490 856
8. 2300 84
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It doesn't seem like 3200psi is really doing much for you, and 2700-2800 would be a much better starting place for a good bell curve. Are you doing the 3200psi just for testing consistency? Or do you plan on filling to that pressure for field use?
It the FIRST experiments and I wanted to see the full curve possibilities before deciding on the optimum fill pressures since there is not much out there on this air rifle as configured.
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Bullet #4 is the Lee 140gr SWC which is another very accurate bullet in my .357 Texan (sized .356, not .357 for some reason?) but shoots 1.5 MOA in the Pitbull at 100 yards in 4 ea 5 shot groups on the regulator. These cast at 142gr with 1:40 alloy
1. 3100 638
2. 3000 660
3. 2875 716
4. 2800 773
5. 2700 819
6. 2600 862*
7. 2490 856
8. 2300 84
8. 2300 847
9. 2125 829
10. 2475 797
11. 2300 767
AVG 778
ES 224
SD 77
*FPE at HI = 230
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I know different guys have a different view of an acceptable ES.... But using 4%, I see only about 5 effective shots in the strings, and it looks like the fill pressure to go along with that is about 2700 psi....
Bob
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Bullet #5 is the NSA 142gr BTHP
I had high expectations for this bullet since Nick told me it it his #1 re-order seller in this caliber... but as noted previously, the package delivered by USPS was in horrible shape and most of these had dings.
I also noted that in chambering the the bullets, single load tray, the bolt probe end vs bullet base usually had a gap on one side and the bullets always a little cocked and at the range I just did not get the awesome accuracy I've come to expect from NSA's in .25 and .457... I have not shot these in the Texan yet.
1. 3100 645
2. 3000 682
3. 2900 728
4. 2800 741
5. 2700 810
6. 2550 845
7. 2475 858*
8. 2300 841
9. 2125 820
10. 2000 791
11. 1800 763
AVG 774
ES 213
SD 69
*FPE at HI = 232
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Hi Bob :D
This is a hunting rifle for me and will be filled to shoot three shots, as 98% of my life I only used one (or only got one shot off, haha)
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Bullet #6 is the modified Bob's Boat Tail he did for me and NOE cut the cherry and is selling. This is covered in https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=149568.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=149568.0)
This bullet shoots very nicely in my Texan and also did well in my ballistic gel tests. I'm looking for a BIG shock in the first 8" of penetration and this HP delivered with the expanded bullet stopping around the 14" point
Shooting it in the Pitbull to see what the FPS and accuracy was comparatively and although it is slower in the Pitbull the accuracy was still 2-1/2 at 100 yards which is not so good by some peoples target standards but quite good for deer or hog hunting since their vital zones are over 6" to 8". I should note that the velocities as the bullets get heavier in this Pitbull testing are maybe too low for the trajectories I have in my 'memory' having settled on a 85 yard zero which I expect a 3" high at 50 yards and 3" low at 100.
It cast at 152 in 1:40 and has a very deep HP which requires a tap on the hinge of the handles to make the bullet drop off the pins but nothing too hard or mold damaging. NOE molds are good quality and I recommend them!
1. 3100 655
2. 2900 693
3. 2825 711
4. 2750 747
5. 2625 835
6. 2525 860*
7. 2400 843
8. 2200 830
9. 2050 807
10. 1900 779
11. 1750 754
AVG 774
ES 205
SD 67
*FPE at HI = 244
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Bullet #7 is the NSA 152gr HP flat base
Nick custom made these for me using the 142gr FB dies adjusted out for 10gr heavier. In the Texan they are one of the most accurate bullets I've shot. In the Pitbull I noticed the velocitys were much slower than I expected... so maybe it is not so much the weight but the extra bearing surface? Would lubing help? I will test these further but other weights do well so might pass on. Note the other comparable weight bullets get better FPS. I believe this is because the bearing surface of grooved bullets is so much less there is less friction.
As shot in this air rifle they are just not good enough to meet the Texas deer hunting regulations FOR ME as I require a little 'cushion' above the limit for the real world so some rule bound game warden does not cite me some day.
1. 3100 589
2. 2975 625
3. 2850 641
4. 2750 703
5. 2650 767
6. 2550 801*
7. 2450 796
8. 2200 773
9. 2100 749
10. 1950 717
11. 1800 682
AVG 713
ES 212
SD 71
*FPE at HI = 216
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And finally for this testing series is the custom Accurate 36-168J, 154gr I had made and also covered in the other thread listed above.
These do as well as the swaged NSA which are the standard to beat. I love them in my Texan! They chamber well and shoot great and with weighed bullets on the regulator (with the rifle mounted in a rifle rest/vise to eliminate the human factor) I have gotten 1" and smaller groups at 100 yards. I am considering having a version 2 mold made with the first band also reduced to .352 so they chamber a little deeper into the Texan chamber, leaving the middle and bottom band at .358.
They shoot well in the Pitbull too but I have not shot them at further than 50 yards yet so I will be doing more but they are well within the specs for my hunting.
I have not shot them into gel yet as I am reworking my camera setup and switching to the GoPro but I have shot them into my water trap. This is a deep trash can with a layer of visquine plastic floating on the surface to keep the splash down/inside so it's about 30" of water. The rifle is fired down vertically into the water, not through the side, people, hahahahah. This one makes a loud 'whop' as the bullet strikes into the water, much louder than a solid bullet and even louder than other HPs (Like you can tell when you hit the animal from the 'thump/whop' you hear... it's distinctive). The bullet did not hold together with 1:40 alloy with the pedals pealing off but the base 50% length of the bullet remained intact and weighs 88gr. Laying the petals out around the core it looks like it got to over .60 expansion before shedding. At a slower velocity I expect an awesome mushroom. The core actually hit the bottom hard enough to show on the plastic and leave a little flat on the lead! With this big a HP this is expected and the temporary wound cavity on a game animal should be significantly debilitating with the remaining mass probably penetrating on through the average animal. I will test in the harder gell but I think this is what I wanted for air rifle velocities which would be slower at distance than the point blank and full FPS I tested at.
1. 3100 666
2. 3000 649
3. 2950 714
4. 2800 771
5. 2700 796
6. 2575 828
7. 2500 839*
8. 2350 834
9. 2175 813
10. 2000 788
11. 1850 755
1700
AVG 768
ES 190
SD 66
*FPE at HI = 240
Note these DO fit in the Bulldog magazine as per length.
Here's some pics of one out of the water trap (and a .25 JSB 33.95 pellet for comparison)
To be continued, haha.......
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Carl for the first three years of owning my Bulldog, I thought the two best investments for it were the drill bit I used to bore it out with before I ever shot it and the rubber grip for the stock.
I found that 2600 psi level was the top of the curve and I simply filled no further.
Then Jefferson State Air Rifles made that wonderful Bulldog valve and the Bulldog trip took a very pleasant and rewarding turn towards power. Your strings look like a advertisement for theJ JSAR Bulldog valve.
Great thread and info Carl.
Roachcreek
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Added Pic to each bullet post
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They look great. I am certainly looking forward to sending some down range.
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They look great. I am certainly looking forward to sending some down range.
I ones I sent you were some of bullets #1's, 3's and 8's
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Awesome
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Carl for the first three years of owning my Bulldog, I thought the two best investments for it were the drill bit I used to bore it out with before I ever shot it and the rubber grip for the stock.
I found that 2600 psi level was the top of the curve and I simply filled no further.
Then Jefferson State Air Rifles made that wonderful Bulldog valve and the Bulldog trip took a very pleasant and rewarding turn towards power. Your strings look like a advertisement for theJ JSAR Bulldog valve.
Great thread and info Carl.
Roachcreek
Planning on ordering the SS valve next week!
This grip? I think your tip lead me to get is but I'm painting my stock before I install it.
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In further testing, I filled to 2650 on the guns gauge and backed the hammer spring out some, shot and did that till I got 600 FPS.
I then turned the hammer spring adjuster in 1/4 turn and fired two shots, turned the adjuster in another 1/4 turn, and repeated that until the adjuster bottomed out and the rifle would not cock. Basically 4.5 full turns for that.
I found that the best FPS was 3/4 turn back off lock and I was back at the 910/915 for the 127gr NOE slug.
This is within 1/8 turn of where Pitbull had it set when they sent it to me so they seem to know what they are doing to get the highest AS CURRENTLY SET UP.
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Talk about valve lock GEEZ...Seems worse than stock valve lock.
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Talk about valve lock GEEZ...Seems worse than stock valve lock.
Yah, there should be more there.
Suggestions?
Somewhat disappointed here, not only with the curve but I really was expecting around 25 to 30 more FPS for each weight too
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After consulting with Travis who was quite helpful on tuning the Bulldog/Pitbull I've ordered a SS valve.
I definitely will eventually get the TI air tube but want to see what I get with the valve before the next step.
FYI - I mentioned that I would love to get the gun regulated for five shots but Travis was very informative that in his testing, with the gun properly valved and ported it did better without regulation than with so I will take his advice of course.
Great phone call and got much more information both ways than PM's or emails would have.
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Carl, you will love the SS power boost. Travis is very correct, the SS valve gives an almost regulated like ES on a handful of shots string once you get it tuned. If the poppet feels tight in the hole when you install it, then spin the metal poppet stem in some fine wet/dry sandpaper to smooth it. Mine took to getting stuck until I did that.
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Carl, you will love the SS power boost. Travis is very correct, the SS valve gives an almost regulated like ES on a handful of shots string once you get it tuned. If the poppet feels tight in the hole when you install it, then spin the metal poppet stem in some fine wet/dry sandpaper to smooth it. Mine took to getting stuck until I did that.
Thanks for the tip!
I'll rerun the chrony tests n post them so everyone can see what change there was.
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Did a little shooting this morning with the bullets and I say a little because my shakes were pretty bad so I quit due simply because I wanted the ideal conditions for shooting groups with 3 of the above bullets.
First up was the SWC in 108gr and as expected they did not do great. Partly my fault, and partly that I just don't think they are heavy enough for the souped up platform. I didn't even bother measuring the group but will give them another go this afternoon.
Second up was the 127GR HP and except for my shaking, they grouped very well with two, three shot groups at 1 inch or less at 50 yards. The bulldog really seems to like 125-130 grain bullets from what I have seen thus far.
Lastly was the 155Gr HP and other than my personal mistakes, they performed decently with the second group tightening up a bit. I have found that when shooting different grains, there is a considerably difference in how firmly you must hold the bulldog. HEavy grains means a bit more recoil.
As I continue to test each bullet, I will post the updates here and I expect them all to get considerably tighter as I adjust to each different load. AGAIN, A good part of the groups CTCs are entirely my fault. Tremors were pretty bad this morning. This in no way measures the high quality of these bullets and I suspect that someone with a steadier body could almost stack both the 155 and 127.
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Nice shooting Matt, it is all about trigger time and seeing what slugs shoot the best at what fps. The groups will get tighter with time. Keep an eye open for dirty barrels, that will mess up groups too.
Bummer about the shakes, at least you go to do some shooting!
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Nice shooting Matt, it is all about trigger time and seeing what slugs shoot the best at what fps. The groups will get tighter with time. Keep an eye open for dirty barrels, that will mess up groups too.
Bummer about the shakes, at least you go to do some shooting!
I certainly need more trigger time with it and to experiment with different hammer spring adjustments for each bullet I use. I generally clean the barrel after every 30-40 shots as I have noticed the barrel does much better with cast slugs when clean. Can't complain about being able to shoot on Christmas morning for sure! Hopefully the tremors ease up this afternoon as they normally do.
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The day before Christmas I got in two new molds: the NOE 356-84-RF-CC5 pellet http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=35_586&products_id=5559&osCsid=tcf20uiim9hdnrhbtmfp7ghcq4 (http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=35_586&products_id=5559&osCsid=tcf20uiim9hdnrhbtmfp7ghcq4)
and the 359-115-RF-R2 big meplat round nose
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=0_34_260&products_id=2205&osCsid=tcf20uiim9hdnrhbtmfp7ghcq4 (http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=0_34_260&products_id=2205&osCsid=tcf20uiim9hdnrhbtmfp7ghcq4)
I will be casting some of these in the next few days and chronying them...
AFTER I get the new SS valve installed.
I also plan to repeat the origional 8 bullets at the new power level.
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Looking forward to your results. As much as I like the NSA slugs in the Bulldog, I would love to cast and then size down my own that shoot very accurately from it as well.
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Added a JSAR SS valve and their new cocking handle and have picked up some FPS.
Have been testing different springs and fills.
#3 NOE 128gr. 943, 940, 919, 892, 870
#6 NOE 152gr. 878, 885, 869, 854, 827
#8 Accurate 155gr. 871, 886, 869, 841, 819
I am getting VERY consistant shot curves with this valve, the FPS repeats with just up or down a couple numbers time after time!
Still hoping to get the pellet/bullet casting section moved to the Darkside as a Child gate like Big Bore is since we use them so much.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=153490.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=153490.0)