GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: dropshot on July 10, 2011, 04:34:46 PM
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Ok I would like some feed back on the Talon .22 and or Talon SS .22, if possible. They are in my price range. This will be my first pcp. I am leaning toward the Talon SS due to the fact that it is quiet. I know it does 800 fps and 20 fpe and I dont think that is a hyped number,(the reason I say this is the video I saw of Paul Capello reviewing it.) now if it says 800 fps and does 650 to 700 fps I would not be interested. 800 is actually borderline for me.
I like how a guy could swap barrels so easily.
Now the regular Talon says 950 fps,And I definitely like that number(if it is not hyped) and it will put out closer to high 20's fpe. While I dont have sketchy neighbors I do want to keep the noise down as I will mostly be shooting it around my house and creeks by my house. I do live with houses around me.
So it boils down to the battle of noise vs. fps.
I will be hunting game such as squirrels, birds, rabbit, and a coon if needed. So I am pretty sure either one could handle this game just fine.
Now I know what you guys are thinking........... why dont you get a disco for half the price or a m-rod still cheaper than a Talon? Well that was my initial thought as I know both are superb shooters. Probably the biggest factor for me is the length between the Crosmans and AirForce. I am a shorter stubby gent. Believe it or not 6 to 10 inches makes a HUGE difference for my off hand accuracy :o. I have a Benji 392 and could probably compare that to the disco length and weight.
So any honest opinions would be great. I know it sounds like I am sold on the airforce but I am not completely sold. ;D
This will be my first pcp by the way.
Thanks
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I have a SS in .22. The Pros: very modular design,compact,lightweight,parts are readily available,can quiet it down with a trip to the hardware store.
The Cons: no qf,no manometer(unless you get the E Tac)
I love mine but it just so happens I need to send the valve off for repair and tune. When in good standing accuracy was great. I had it tuned and was to be in the 800s.
I personally would look for a good used one to cut cost and leave you with a little change if you want to mod it a bit.
(http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb32/BackyardSniper/TalonSS_Subsonicshroud.jpg)
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Thanks sniper. What hardware store mod are you referring to?
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Fender washers, springs,o rings, and felt or green scratch pad. You can look on Youtube for the tutorial.
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If need 50+ FPE you can save up a little more cash you can get a
- RLAirguns Stubby Extreme - http://www.rlairgunsupply.com/cart/products/Stubby_Extreme-749-131.html (http://www.rlairgunsupply.com/cart/products/Stubby_Extreme-749-131.html)
- Talon Tunes Shorty .25 Carbine - http://www.talontunes.com/id28.html (http://www.talontunes.com/id28.html)
Just a few more options if length is an issue. The stubby looks pretty sweet IMO.
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If need 50+ FPE you can save up a little more cash you can get a
- RLAirguns Stubby Extreme - http://www.rlairgunsupply.com/cart/products/Stubby_Extreme-749-131.html (http://www.rlairgunsupply.com/cart/products/Stubby_Extreme-749-131.html)
- Talon Tunes Shorty .25 Carbine - http://www.talontunes.com/id28.html (http://www.talontunes.com/id28.html)
Just a few more options if length is an issue. The stubby looks pretty sweet IMO.
I love that stubby WOW!!!!
Right now the budget is about 800-900 bucks, that includes pump. I was thinking of getting a different length barrel to have options. If I do decide to go the AirForce route. The talon tunes gun is actually an option as well.
Thanks
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I have a .22 Talon (not the SS) with the 18 inch barrel and I simply can't say enough good things about the rifle. I personally love the overall tactical look of Air Force and I also find my Talon and my Condor to be very comfortable to shoot. My talon is incredibly accurate and has the power to be an extremely effective hunter. I also have the CO2 adapter for it and it turns into one heck of a CO2 tack driver :)
My talon is totally stock, except for the "frame extender" installed over the barrel and it easily shoots 14.3 gr pellets in the upper 900 fps range.
While the Talon does in fact shoot a bit faster than the SS due to the barrel length the SS is a great rifle as well and the factory shroud gives you the quiet you might be looking for.
Jeff
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longisland, If I do get the Talon SS (or an AirForce gun) I plan to get an 18 inch barrel as well, so When I am hunting away from the neighborhood I get the extra FPS and sound will not be an issue.
Thank you all for your responses. ;)
B-rad
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I'm looking at an AF for my next rifle too. I want something with almost 500cc air tank that I can milk for 80-100 shots. Looking for .22 to push the 15.9's @ 850-930. Can get a ton of shots off with a 500cc tank at that pellet weight and velocity. Good thing about it is you can dial it in to adjust for heavier pellets if you want to take something bigger down.
Other ones I'm looking at is a Sumatra 2500 500cc, but this bad boy has some serious noise I hear and an LDC doesn't make it neighborhood friendly. The AF Talons SS with extended shroud/LDC is supposed to be almost Marauder quiet.
@Longisland does the Talon + Frame Extender make it nearly as quiet as a Marauder? My disco + 6.5" TKO is condominium friendly quiet, and I hear the Marauder is even more quiet.
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The Talon is a great little carbine. You can adjust the power on the Talon SS (and Talon) to get 50-60 decent "power" shots which you can't do with the "others". One of the Talon's major advantages over the other PCP's you mentioned, is that its air tank is 2.5x larger than the others'. The tank/bottle unscrews in about 3 seconds if you decide to fill it ith a SCUBA tank. Its LW barrel also guarantees you outstanding accuracy. And if you decide you need more power, you can switch the bottle to a Condor one, or just add the Condor hammer & spring which is very easy to do, or both. The hammer & spring slide out the frame (along with the power-wheel) after you remove the barrel, the power-wheel screw, and once you cock the rifle. It's that easy. It's a very easy gun to upgrade or work on (outside the trigger components).
If you decide to get the (18") Talon, or add an 18" barrel to your SS, you will most likely need a shroud to keep it the muzzle report down. The regular (18") Talon is much louder than the SS (which comes w/12" barrel). Bullseye Bill sells very effective shrouds for under $60 including shipping. An SS with 12" barrel should be "mouse fart" quiet with one of Bill's (fairly short) shrouds, which I also think look very good on a Talon or Condor. If you travel you can take the bottle off and put the gun and bottle in any small bag or box. No need to carry a long gun case. It also has rails all over for a gun light (night shooting/hunting), or whatever other accessories you want to install.
Good luck with your decision!
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Well,If there's one thing I've learned in the last 1.5 years since rediscovering AG's and the Elite group of guys and gals,(And just down to Earth,Great People) in this sport is,There's many Styles,Sizes and models of AG's and just like everything else in life,Not everyone likes the same thing.I can remember the first time I seen an Airforce Condor I thought,Hmm,that's not for me!
But,after seeing all the cool things you can do with them,(Mods & Tweaks) I started to take a liking to them.
Also, then there's Brother Harry (right here above me) he he,that gave me a lot of great info and the more I read and seen,the more I wanted one.Well fast forward to now,I now have my Condor .25 and let me tell you,after getting my Tri Rail,Accessory Bar,Bipod and Lazer-Light combo,well this thing is just Wicked and anything the Sumatra has knocked down,well the Condor has as well!
Good Luck and I hope you like it if you buy it.
So I guess the point I'm trying to make is,,we all don't like GT Mustangs,,but those of us who do,Like em a lot,he he!
I can't tell you to want or buy a AF gun,,but I can tell you,if you do,,you may just Love it,lol.
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Air force makes a great air gun I love mine all four of them. It will take out a squirrel at 100 yards. I f the shooter is good enough. I love the condor
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Troy, I was the same way! When I first saw a picture of a Condor in the Spring of 2007, I hated it! I was like what they hey is that? At first I thought it was a Paintball gun and wouldn't even bother reading posts about it, until after I was done reading about Springers and buying a couple of them. That's when I decided to see what the PCP hype was all about in late '07, and kept running into the Talon/Condor again. It wasn't long after that I bought my 1st (used) Condor to try out in July '08, and was I impressed. It immediately became my go-to gun from the moment I took the first shot. 5-6 months later in December 2008, I owned 3 of them, 1 with a real nice custom wood stock. Today 2 of the 3 Condors I own have wood grips on them :) They really don't make me shoot better, I don't think. They just feel slightly better holding the gun(s) or shooting off-hand :D
BTW, dropshot hit me up with several PM's after I posted here, so he probably got most of the answers he was seeking on AF guns :)
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BTW, dropshot hit me up with several PM's after I posted here, so he probably got most of the answers he was seeking on AF guns
Yes sir I did get the answers I am looking for. I am going AirForce for sure. THANK YOU.
I too was the same way about the AirForce line of guns, "Man those things are ugly. Who would want one of those?" :-\ But they grew on me and the more I looked into them and the more they appealed to me. Now I just need to gather a bit more money and I am in. ;)
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Nice! Glad you made a decision. It's tough!
Personally I love the look of them. Always been a fan of the black rifle look. I think I've settled on Sumatra 2500 500cc for my next bad boy though because to get an AF to what I want it to be I'm going to have to spend over $1000 :o. I don't want to spend all day on a chrony tweaking my next gun; I'll keep my discovery for my project tweaking gun. I just want to pick something up and shoot it. Wish they had custom stocks for a Sumatra to make it look more tactical, but that lever style is not going to mesh with any tactical look lol
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Congrats on deciding on an Air Force rifle,,, they are awesome. I took out a woodchuck today at 60 yards with a single shot from my .22 Condor shooting 25 gr JSB Jumbo Monsters at 1060 fps. Just doesn't get any better :) My Condor and my Talon are both hunting machines :)
Jeff
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Holidayshrimp: You really don't have to spend all day through the Chrony to tweak the Condor, and you don't need regulators or any other fancy parts that the hardcore AF guys use. I recently rebuilt my Condor .22 and brought it back to completely stock, because some of the mods the previous owner had done just weren't working too well any longer. I spent maybe 30min. on the Chrony and I am really picky about my Condor's consistency. Most of the time you just select a few spots on the PowerWheel and shoot to see how the consistency and the power is. Some go even further by adjusting the tophat on the valve which is also fairly easy to do, but you don't have to. Most of the time they shoot very consistently out of the box. You 'd have to spend some time on the Chrony anyway with any PCP that has "infinite" or a wide adjustability range. If you want a gun that has limited adjustments, then the Sumatra is probably the gun for you. If you want same-hole groups and ragged holes at 30-35yds with a top notch German Lothar Walther barrel, and great customer service & support from an American company, then you may want to re-think your position on the Condor. I will leave you with this. The Sumatra chrony #'s that I have seen indicate that velocity decreases by 7-8fps avg. per shot. The Condor gives you a decent "curve" and loses ~3fps per shot after you get several shots within 1-2fps at the peak of the curve.
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I would much more prefer a Condor that is made here in the U.S.A. but, as you also noted on the other TT forums, what I want is out of my budget
I haven't discounted the AF yet! When I actually get the cash together I still plan on contacting Tony at TT and see what he can do for me ;D
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Well I really think that is the issue right there with a lot of people considering an AF gun. After visiting the TAG, most everyone presumes that they cannot own a Condor or Talon, or would not like the gun, unless they send it to Talon Tunes. That is what they push on the TAG forum, which is also owned by Talon Tunes. This could not be further from the truth.
I have both a stock and TT tuned Condor and a Condor tuned by Talon Tune's (Tony's) predecessor Lee (Lemak). The truth is the benefits and performance of a well-tuned Condor are very minor. As a matter of fact I have run into more issues with the tuned Condors, than with the stock Condor. It is because modified Condors have some aftermarket parts or stock parts altered, which can cause problems down the road. You can enjoy your Condor in its entirely stock form for many years if you just do some basic cleaning and lube or change the breach O-rings every couple of years. The Condor and Talon are great guns out of the box. A stock AF gun can be just as accurate or very very close to a TT tuned gun. The difference again is very small or negligent. If a gun is not accurate and consistent out of the box, then it has a problem or defect and you simply need send it to AF to fix.
Even a simple mod as a heavier hammer to gain more power, like the 90-95gram one from Talon Tunes, changes somewhat the shooting characteristics of the gun. Above all it makes it more hold-sensitive, on top of giving it a louder "ping" when the valve is struck with more force. It will not be like a Springer, but a certain level of hold-senstivity will be present after installing a much heavier hammer. The hammer will also create more recoil and the gun will jump off the table/surface if you are shooting it using a bipod. My stock .22 Condor is more quiet than my .25 TT Condor because of its stock/lighter hammer. The muzzle report on both stock & tuned Condors are equally low/quiet because of their shrouds, but the TT Condor has a few decibles more noise coming from the heavy hammer striking the valve. There is a give & take for every mod you make. You have to be mindful how you hold the gun after a hammer upgrade, if you want the same accuracy you had before. People scream get a bigger hammer, but noone tells you what other things will change. Most of the posts on the TAG do not tell you all the "side-effects" of modifying or tuning, but I try to educate people on that forum as well about what to expect when they modify their AF guns, and many other members there agree with me. Unfortunately it is not often we speak about some of the "negative" aspects of modding. They are not serious issues, but the gains to me are not worth the $450 bill from TT for the full-tune with most of the optional parts, or for idiosyncracies the tune creates. Thus the reason I bought all my Condors used including a fully tuned TT Condor and another tuned Lemak Condor and saved $ considerably. But I have come to the conclusion after having shot both TT and stock Condors for several years, that the differences are so small, that for me it does not warrant spending all that $ for an advanced tune. It's not like tuning your Springer, where you go WOW, what a difference.. and let's not forget a Springer tune costs 1/2 as much. I also had problems with the TT tuned trigger. The safety was very smooth and easy to disengage, but polished so much (by TT) to achieve this, that it started failing and eventually the gun started discharging by itself after cocking it. The safety trigger components had to be replaced. I could go into other things in more detail about my stock Condor vs. the other 2 tuned Condors, but I think I have conveyed my feelings towards spending that kind of $ on a tune. Perhaps if you can get those mods for less $ by someone else or do it yourself, it might be worth it, because I am not saying a good tune & quality parts do not improve the gun in some ways. Just saying not as much that it warrants paying the price of another Talon for it.
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Thanks for the info Harry! I've seen some of the quarrels that you have been in on the other forum :o It's why I like this forum so much more. Everyone is laid back and more calm.
I figured they would be a bit biased but it comes with the territory as people who have used TT will be active on the forums. I would be pro-x if I was a member of x forum also. ;D
I don't think I would ever upgrade my hammer weight because I only want to shoot 15.9 JSB's and 16gr Predators in the 900-950 range. I would definitely need a regulator if I want to fill to 3000psi and I want a TON of shots 60+ but 80+ would be better. I think the biggest thing pushing me away from AF is the cost of a nice shroud :o and the ergonomics of the rifle in general. That air tank sitting against my face just doesn't feel right and I see the scope height as an issue also for zeroing your scope in. Yes it can all be corrected with mil dots and learning the rifle and chairgun but lower usually means less having to adjust (from what I've been learning).
I did see a HOT used condor for $700 on the Yellow board with LDC, bipod, scope, laser, and tons of other stuff. Still not sure if the Talon or Condor would be a better platform to start with for my needs. Condor valve will probably be too high for what I want, but the Condor barrel length may or may not be more suitable for air conservation. Still so many ? topics.
Sumatra seems easy enough. Fill. Chrony on low or low+1 with 15.9/16gr. See how many clips until loses FPS and dial up. Remember and never chrony again. I could probably borrow a chrony from someone at the range or the range may have them. I like how the Sumatra looks cowboy )&^%*^, but not as )&^%*^ as the AF look.
Wow I've hijacked this thread. Sorry everyone. ;D
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Yes, much more friendly here! :) You probably saw the argument over semantics I was having with someone that had 5,000 posts about a week or 10 days ago on the "other" forum. That was probably the 2nd or 3d one I have had in 3-4yrs over there, so it's not very common for me at all :) but it was a good example how they start with the language and insults over nothng. But for others there arguing and fighting is almost like a daily thing.. and they use language, even threaten to find each other and do harm.. but enough of that forum (which is actually kind of dying out.. it used to be much more busy, but the attitude and that crowd is killing it slowly - they need rules to make it work and keep people in line).
Anyway I remember who you are now! You are the one that lives in a Condo and was asking for advice on which one to get - Talon or Condor. I remember some of the responses to your post. It is no surprise why you have been saying you need to spend $1k or more on a Condor. If I were you and reading those responses I would turn to any other PCP except for Talon/Condor. Some of those guys have been there a long time and work on their guns a lot. They like to analyze everything and constantly tweak. Those are the worse people to give advice to someone who is looking to buy an Air Force gun and is on a budget. Many of them are mod-crazy and everything has to be perfect. Nothing wrong with trying to make improvements all the time, but it makes it look like the Air Force guns not so good out of the box, which far from the truth. I know almost all of them for a long time or since they signed up. They are mostly good guys, but they don't understand that they are scaring people away when they start mentioning all kinds of mods and adjustments and get too technical right away when the original poster is not too familiar with the guns. It can be extremely overwhelming. I was in that position once, which is why I decided to buy well-tuned guns used from the getgo. They had me brainwashed too.. You don't need to be a brain surgeon to operate these guns. A 9yr can do it and they are dang accurate out of the box. None of that stuff is necessary to have a lot of fun with a very powerful gun like the Condor.
If you go to the Hunting Gate right now, you will see a post from LongIslandhunter where he took 2 Groundhogs @ 50-55yds with head shots. There is nothing special about his Condor because it is 100% stock other than Bullzeye Bill's shroud which you can see in his pics. Jeff has had his Condor for a couple of years now and does not even have a bipod on it. For some reason though he continues to kill Groundhogs/woodchucks, squirrels, rabbits and pigeons every week. I wonder how he does it with no mods! hehehe :D Just kidding. He also owns an equally stock Talon 18" with the same inexpensive shroud.
Anyway, you will need a shroud or LDC for the Sumatra as well. It will sound like a "canon" if you shoot without one. I would not attempt shooting the Sumatra at your Condo complex before you quiet it down. You can get an effective shroud for $58 from Bullzeye Bill for the Condor or Talon. A few guys here have it.
Here is the link: http://www.frameextender.com/ (http://www.frameextender.com/)
I sincerely hope you find a gun you will be very happy with.
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This was a helpful thread. I've been considering either a Condor or a Talon SS myself. I've read a lot of posts around the 'net and I think after a while, the thing that drew me to the Airforce rifles (configurability, modding, lots of aftermarket parts etc), was starting to steer me away. I kept thinking I'd need this..and this....and that...and have that done...and get this installed....all right away. It was getting a bit overwhelming and sounding way over my budget. But I have better perspective now.
So I think I'm leaning strongly towards the SS at this point. Quiet is important as I have real pain in the butt neighbors when I shoot outside. I'd want something similar to the noise level of my Marauder .22...or with the option of easily/cheaply making it that quiet or quieter. I only do occasional hunting and at 50yds or less and nothing bigger than a skunk. In fact after dispatching the one that was digging up my lawn last year, I haven't seen another. :-) It would be mostly tree rats, and Alvin and his chipmunks. But I probably plink more than I shoot critters. I really like the smallish size of the SS, especially with the Maddog stock. Reminds me a bit of an Edgun.
Still...the out of the box power of the Condor keeps drawing me back {insert the Tim Allen Home Improvement grunt here}.
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Exactly. I am glad I am getting through to someone :) That is how I was at first and the reason it took me a long time, probably 6-7 months before I pushed the button on my 1st Condor. I thought I needed to have all kinds of mods to be able to shoot this gun properly but I found out that was all basically nonsense. That "forum" is a very technical forum where a lot of DIY'ers make it home. Afterall it is only about 2 gun models, and as you have probably seen, they leave nothing unmodified. Even the tiny little (red) safety cap and the small breach knob get swapped out. Nothing is left untouched. It is very easy to get sucked in to all that when you are a first time buyer and are looking for advice. Many first-time buyers, after reading for a couple of weeks, post their list of accessories & mods along with the gun they plan on getting, and ask if there is "anythng missing" from their full page parts list. That is just nuts, and it doesn't have to be that way. Unfortunately it is that way (maybe not as bad) with a few other PCP's, but it sometimes shy people away and they end up scratchign it off their list. The only thing I can see getting at the same time when you purchase an AF gun, is a shroud, besides some high-rings and a scope of course.
Anyway, if you do more plinking than hunting, the Talon SS is great because it will give you twice as many shots or more than the Maurader. This is due to its much larger tank of course, its "smaller" valve, and being able to dial down the power too, which further makes it use less air. 60-80 shots is not at all uncommon with a Talon from a 2800+psi fill depending on the power setting.
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Troy, I was the same way! When I first saw a picture of a Condor in the Spring of 2007, I hated it! I was like what they hey is that? At first I thought it was a Paintball gun and wouldn't even bother reading posts about it, until after I was done reading about Springers and buying a couple of them. That's when I decided to see what the PCP hype was all about in late '07, and kept running into the Talon/Condor again. It wasn't long after that I bought my 1st (used) Condor to try out in July '08, and was I impressed. It immediately became my go-to gun from the moment I took the first shot. 5-6 months later in December 2008, I owned 3 of them, 1 with a real nice custom wood stock. Today 2 of the 3 Condors I own have wood grips on them :) They really don't make me shoot better, I don't think. They just feel slightly better holding the gun(s) or shooting off-hand :D
BTW, dropshot hit me up with several PM's after I posted here, so he probably got most of the answers he was seeking on AF guns :)
Hey Harry,Sorry I'm just getting back to you,but we are away and I'm sneaking a little GTA time right now as the ring toss is now over here at my sister in laws,he he.
Two stories couldn't be more alike than ours,lol.I pretty much saw it the same way,but after getting your feedback I'm some grateful I took your advise! I really Love this rifle and the more I shoot it,the more we're bonding. I still have my favorite springer,(The Vorteked 350) and she's something else now as well.The Sumatra I also like as it's accurate and the lever action makes for a quick follow up,(But honestly,with her power) you really don't need it he he.That's the way I look at it when they say,(The condor is a single shot),,Yep she is,,but with accuracy and power,I've yet to need a follow up,lol.
I guess it's to each their own,,But the Condor fills my PCP gap in a lot of ways,(.177 barrels,.22 and .20) all in one rifle!
Oh and Btw Holiday Shrimp,,I found the Condor a little hard until I put my Tri Rail on and then my drop butt pad and now she's right there.Actually she throws just as nice as any of my guns,but that also depends on the person too I would guess.
OK guys,,gotta cut out so Have a Good weekend and I'll ttya'll later.
Troy
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MAN all this talk about Airforce is kill'n me. I want one NOW dag nabit ;D Thanks again Harry for all the input.