GTA
Support Equipment For PCP/HPA/CO2 and springers ,rams => Optics, Range estimation & related subjects => Topic started by: Hayfoot on November 27, 2018, 01:39:54 PM
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Greetings all...
I just bought a new scope... and actually started reading the manual.
regarding installation, the indicated torques for installation are 25 INCH/pounds on the T15 top rings, and 68 INCH/pounds on the 1/2 nut crossbolts.
So... now I need to get the appropriate wrenches.
or do I?
is this (yes I'm a noob) the standard setting used for all scope installations, so I should have these tools anyway... or are these numbers scope/mount dependent?
Thanks ~
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The numbers are mount dependent. For my one piece dovetail mount Hawke recommended thirty inch pounds on the dovetail and fifteen on the scope straps. Yes, I have a torque wrench. Wheeler is probably your best deal and I think theirs even includes bits. I have the older needle deflection type.
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Certainly would recommend a torque wrench. I have several for use on guns and bikes. Wheeler makes good ones as noted. In a pinch, some recommend using only the short leg of common allen wrenches to tighten top straps on scope rings (avoid scope damage) but that doesn't help much with screws. Probably much less critical on the mount base. Get a torque wrench.
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I like the Wheeler Fat wrench.
The digital one goes down to 15 ounce inches, the regular one goes down to 10 ounce inches.
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Thanks for all of the replies... yeah, I think I'll spend the money on torque wrenches rather than risk damage.
I looked at sets, and it might be cheaper to get "torque" handles... preset to 25 and 68in-lbs, then also get a torque screwdriver for the smaller precision jobs.
I was wondering if these were like 'universal' settings, but they seem specific to this particular scope & mount.
hmmmm.
live and learn.
is there like a normal range? or do most of you guys use 'finger tight' to mount most scopes?
cheers pals
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Normal range? It depends on the size of the fasteners and the base material of the rings but I would say the most common values are about 15 in*lbs for ring caps (M3 fasteners) and 30 in*lbs for the base (M4 fasteners). That would be for threads into aluminum. You could use more torque for steel rings but the 15 in*lbs is probably about as high as you'd want to go for the caps for fear of denting the scope tube. However you may consider using more for the base if the fastener is larger and/or the mount is steel.
Bottom line is it's a good idea to consult the manufacturer's instructions for suggested torque.
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I have been torquing things most of my life, one recommendation is after a short test run / break in, go ahead and re torque them, to insure it did not settle out some with vibration.
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.... 15 in*lbs for ring caps (M3 fasteners) and 30 in*lbs for the base (M4 fasteners). That would be for threads into aluminum. ....
Bottom line is it's a good idea to consult the manufacturer's instructions for suggested torque.
wow... what a difference. had to reread to make sure mine said 68in/lbs.
thanks for the answers! it helps.
...and I'll be sure to retest the torque after putting a few rounds through. :-)
Mike
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Thanks for all of the replies... yeah, I think I'll spend the money on torque wrenches rather than risk damage.
I looked at sets, and it might be cheaper to get "torque" handles... preset to 25 and 68in-lbs, then also get a torque screwdriver for the smaller precision jobs.
I was wondering if these were like 'universal' settings, but they seem specific to this particular scope & mount.
hmmmm.
live and learn.
is there like a normal range? or do most of you guys use 'finger tight' to mount most scopes?
cheers pals
Hey Mike
what are the torque handles you mention?
If by torque screwdriver you are referring to the below or another brand of the same that should be all you need.
https://www.amazon.com/Wheeler-Firearms-Accurizing-Torque-Wrench/dp/B0012AXR4S/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1543365101&sr=8-8&keywords=torque+handle+set (https://www.amazon.com/Wheeler-Firearms-Accurizing-Torque-Wrench/dp/B0012AXR4S/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1543365101&sr=8-8&keywords=torque+handle+set)
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Hi Ray,
thanks for the suggestion. I was looking at this 'handle' that is set for one torque setting:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0053FPHJG/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_2?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0053FPHJG/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_2?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1)
but I'm also looking at a set like you suggest, but for lower 'precision' settings, cuz the scope also mentions things like 'torque setting on the clutch housing'... not that I plan on messing with it too much.
mostly i'm looking at what I need to mount it, only.
M
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.... 15 in*lbs for ring caps (M3 fasteners) and 30 in*lbs for the base (M4 fasteners). That would be for threads into aluminum. ....
Bottom line is it's a good idea to consult the manufacturer's instructions for suggested torque.
wow... what a difference. had to reread to make sure mine said 68in/lbs.
thanks for the answers! it helps.
...and I'll be sure to retest the torque after putting a few rounds through. :-)
Mike
Yup.....................
(https://i.imgur.com/O0doLhCh.jpg)
Matter of fact.....I've damaged BKL scope mounts by repeatedly using 40in/lbs torque on the base screws ( 5in/lbs more than the BKL recommended max) trying to keep the things from sliding on my HW95 dovetail........
(https://i.imgur.com/gUh6khCl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/O3URm2Ll.jpg)
When using only 10in/lbs torque on the BKL top straps (BKL doesn't list a torque spec for the "strap screws") my scope slipped, however using 15in/lbs torque on the top straps of the two piece BKL mounts dented my scope tubes (notice the destinctive "double dents")...........
(https://i.imgur.com/mLyOJ2sl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/LamRSe1l.jpg)
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Looks like maybe 12.5 in/lbs would have been in order :o. Not funny to damage a tube (I've done it myself) but I wonder if the scope makers might have recommendations for torque as well as the mount makers? Larger diameter scopes with more area and possibly stronger tubes might be better?
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Ed brings up a good point, in that springers may require the max. Pneumatics may be less susceptible to shifting even if you lighten up a bit, so hitting the exact torque recommendation is perhaps less critical. I use the fat wrench because I just can’t resist turning a screw, in fact any screw, just a bit tighter, sometimes with bad results.
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Wow... so glad I asked... I never knew there was such a wide difference in torque settings!
Sure the heck don't want to ruin a scope.
Thanks guys!
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And all of us have different hand strength. I likewise have messed up plenty of things trying to get them just a bit tighter. Get a torque wrench. Wheeler Fat Wrench (mechanical or digital) works well and isn't particularly expensive.
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Looks like maybe 12.5 in/lbs would have been in order :o. Not funny to damage a tube (I've done it myself) but I wonder if the scope makers might have recommendations for torque as well as the mount makers? Larger diameter scopes with more area and possibly stronger tubes might be better?
I talked to Vortex customer service concerning the Diamondback scope tube damage and was told to use 10-13in/lbs torque! :o
I don't know if the reply was legitimate but I know that even 15in/lbs of "top strap screw torque" didn't hold my relatively heavy 3-12x50 Optisan Viper with 30mm tube set in a BKL one piece mount on my .177 HW95.........
(https://i.imgur.com/k6N36xQl.jpg)
Here's the torque driver I use..........
(https://i.imgur.com/XF3r4Csl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/NW0Tyk6l.jpg)
Anywhoo....after my issues with scope tube damage and slipping scopes all my BKL mounts were replaced.
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So with all these wide ranges possible... what about a set like these:
http://www.valdada.com/30mm-x6-med-tactical-rings/ (http://www.valdada.com/30mm-x6-med-tactical-rings/)
I checked all over the website and they have no torque settings. Finger tight? or based on scope tube?
or is it less of a problem with picatinny type mounts?
M
oops: just found it on their FAQ page:
Valdada Optics recommends 15 INCH POUNDS for our ring caps. Our heavy duty V-Tac rings with 1/2" nuts or 7/16" nuts can be tightened to 55-65 INCH POUNDS on picatinny platforms
although they then add:
but that is a MIL-SPEC standard and not necessary for standard applications. Usually after the nuts are finger tight, additional force of about 90 degrees is more than enough to hold your rings to your bases.
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Hey Mike
what are the torque handles you mention?
... that should be all you need.
https://www.amazon.com/Wheeler-Firearms-Accurizing-Torque-Wrench/dp/B0012AXR4S/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1543365101&sr=8-8&keywords=torque+handle+set (https://www.amazon.com/Wheeler-Firearms-Accurizing-Torque-Wrench/dp/B0012AXR4S/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1543365101&sr=8-8&keywords=torque+handle+set)
Hey Ray, after a 2nd look that's probably exactly what I'll get. Thanks for the link!
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So with all these wide ranges possible... what about a set like these:
http://www.valdada.com/30mm-x6-med-tactical-rings/ (http://www.valdada.com/30mm-x6-med-tactical-rings/)
I checked all over the website and they have no torque settings. Finger tight? or based on scope tube?
or is it less of a problem with picatinny type mounts?
M
oops: just found it on their FAQ page:
Valdada Optics recommends 15 INCH POUNDS for our ring caps. Our heavy duty V-Tac rings with 1/2" nuts or 7/16" nuts can be tightened to 55-65 INCH POUNDS on picatinny platforms
although they then add:
but that is a MIL-SPEC standard and not necessary for standard applications. Usually after the nuts are finger tight, additional force of about 90 degrees is more than enough to hold your rings to your bases.
Personally I'd start with about 12in/lbs top strap screw torque since there are 6 of the little suckers and see if the scope shifts. If the scope doesn't shift then I'd leave it at 12in/lbs, but if the scope shifts then I'd use the recommended 15 in/lbs. With a top strap as wide as that mount I'm pretty sure that there would be no scope tube damage using the recommended torque.
Now the recommended base screw torque is a puzzle to me, especially since it's a Picatinny. My HW95 only has receiver dovetails for mounting a scope so I'm currently using an UTG Universal adapter and Weaver Quad Lock rings to the HW95. To keep my Weaver rings solidly attached to the Weaver/Picatinny adapter I don't need to use anything close to 55in/lbs of torque. Matter of fact, my 1" $10 Weaver rings (bought at WallyMart) are solidly attached to the UTG adapter after only "snugging up" the base screws..........
(https://i.imgur.com/btWecqfl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/Kzc3el7l.png)(https://i.imgur.com/LunRxjVl.jpg)
For some reason the cheap Weaver Quad Lock rings will hold my "not exactly light" 4-16x50 Hawke Panorama scope without slipping, yet I don't get scope tube damage if I use 15in/lbs torque on the rather narrow top straps. The Weaver rings are a sort of "wrap around" design that seems to hold the scope without a lot of top strap screw torque...........
(https://i.imgur.com/XmYulwll.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/4o0ik0xl.jpg)
As a side note, according to the link those rings weigh .4 POUNDS (almost 1/2 pound) which is a rather heavy addition when added to the weight of a scope!
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Yep, the Wheeler Fat Wrench, that's the one that I have.
All of the torque wrenches that I have used will tell you to reduce the setting to the minimum when you store it. That will minimize spring fatigue.
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As a side note, according to the link those rings weigh .4 POUNDS (almost 1/2 pound) which is a rather heavy addition when added to the weight of a scope!
Yeah... this is my learning curve... didn't really notice that when I saw "oh look... they're on sale". haha... ugh.
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Something to keep in mind with older units (not sure if still applies) is ....taking a torque wrench only to within its 10-15% min-max settings. Numerous reports of faulty reads/clicks within those ranges. So I'd get one that gives you "wiggle" room and not at its max.
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The scope rings mentioned are the Night Force X-treme Duty rings. Very expensive! :-[
The screws that hold the dovetail are made from titanium! Everything that was said before is fine for steel.
Titanium is very different. It will stretch. Perhaps that is why they recommend a torque # that is almost twice what is used for steel.
My recommendation is sell the Nightforce rings and buy a cheap set with steel screws. Since it is on a PCP, you do not need much to hold the scope in place. ;)
-Y
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Thanks Yogi... wow, so much to keep in mind.
Here's the laugh... "that's what the salesman recommended".
How does using those titanium rings effect the scope rail? I see they're overkill, but is there any damage to the scope mount?
lesson: ask questions here before buying 'anything'. haha
note to self: stell rings weigh WAY too much... titanium rings COST way too much. :o
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Maybe a stupid question here, but do any of you lubricate the screws? I use either the included allen wrenches that come with the scope (anybody wanna buy some?) or a multi allen wrench set from Lowes or HD. Especially on the top straps, I get this liitle "iirk" sound when tightening. I'm thinking it's from the paint-to-paint contact, hence my question about lubrication. Am I over doing it?
Also wondering if anyone has thoughts on this product
(https://i.postimg.cc/52fBDhzW/Gehmann-torque-wrench.jpg)
It's in Nm, I know, so a bit of conversion is necessary.
They're $49 at Creedmore.
Dennis
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12 newton meter is only 9pound feet. At least according to my conversion table. ???
That is not enough to tighten most airgun screws.
-Y
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12 newton meter is only 9pound feet. At least according to my conversion table. ???
That is not enough to tighten most airgun screws.
-Y
Thanks Yogi. I probably should have researched that myself. Gehmann makes primarily competition sights, and the fact that the accessory bits are only 2.5 to 5mm should have been an indicator as well.
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12 newton meter is only 9pound feet. At least according to my conversion table. ???
That is not enough to tighten most airgun screws.
-Y
Thanks Yogi. I probably should have researched that myself. Gehmann makes primarily competition sights, and the fact that the accessory bits are only 2.5 to 5mm should have been an indicator as well.
12 newton meters equals 106.2 inch pounds (not foot pounds) which is well over double any airgun torque rating I've read.........
http://www.kylesconverter.com/torque/newton-meters-to-inch--pounds-force (http://www.kylesconverter.com/torque/newton-meters-to-inch--pounds-force)
(https://i.imgur.com/O0doLhCh.jpg)
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And so, using the Gehmann tool on the low end of it's range (4Nm) and using the above calculator, yields 35 in/lbs, which is the rating used for the horizontal screws on that Leapers package. There apparently is no way to get 15 in/lbs from that tool. What the heck are these guys tightening with it?
Is there something I'm missing here?