GTA
Support Equipment For PCP/HPA/CO2 and springers ,rams => Scopes And Optics Gate => Topic started by: JungleShooter on November 09, 2018, 02:23:25 AM
-
Why I shouldn’t buy a 50mm/ 56mm objective lens!... (Or why I SHOULD buy one!) ;)
Folks, this is a different discussion than the one about the magnification. Cf.:
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=150526.new#new (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=150526.new#new)
But my needs/ requirements are the same.
I have a Leapers UTG 6-24x50 AO Front Parallax.
I want to upgrade from a 120$ scope to a $300-400 scope (and I have made a long list with specs, prices, and all).
May I ask you for your advice, before hitting the Add-to-Cart button? Thanks!
I can only afford one scope, with one rifle.
So, I’m looking for a COMPROMISE SCOPE = not perfect for just one job, but adequate for all my jobs.... ;-)
So, here are the jobs I’d like this compromise scope to do:
Types of Shooting:
(1) Hunting – walking, and from a hide – pigeons, rabbits, rats
(2) Target shooting
(3) Distances up to 100 and 150 yards – for both hunting and targets (parallax down to 10y)
Other Requirements
(4) Scope price range = $300/400
(5) I do not need to range distances like in FT, so no need for a narrow DoF (depth of field). But I do like side turret parallax.
(6) I do not mind the extra weight of a 50 or 56 mm objective lens.
(7) I have done very little night shooting, but I’m thinking about it....
Other Details
(8 ) I’m a turret clicker, so I need the scope to track well and be repeatable.
FYI: You can tell me why you prefer the clicker (dialer) approach, or the hold’er-over approach here: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=149959 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=149959)
(9) My eyes are over 50 years old.
(10) FYI: The gun is a mid-level PCP (33FPE)
What objective lens size do you recommend?
Why would I need 50mm or 56mm? Or why I should get a smaller size?
What I am gaining by having 56mm over 50mm over 44mm? What am I losing?
Thanks for the help.
Matthias
-
I would NEVER add a 2 pound scope to any rifle that I have to carry anywhere except to the shooting bench.
How much does you gun weigh unscoped?
-Y
-
All else being equal, the bigger the objective, the brighter the view. The exit pupil is the objective diameter divided by the power. On a 10X40 scope it would be 40/10 = 4. A 10X56 would be 56/10 = 5.6. This translates to much more light being transmitted through the scope.
-
Weight is a relative thing. Might bother some, wouldn't bother others. The light gathering is not so relative though. Definitely a help in low light.
-
1 1/2" tube is what you want.
-
1 1/2" tube is what you want.
Yes!
34mm is the largest tube that I have heard of...
-Y
-
I also thought that 34mm is the max. tube diameter, but then I remembered I stumbled once upon some “elephant tubes,” just huge in comparison to our normal 1" tubes, cf. the links further down (the prices are “elephant-prices” as well).
Tube size for me must be 1" or 30mm, because I need to use adjustable scope mounts, and they only come in 1" and 30mm from what I found.
I need to raise the scope just so in order to make full use of the elevation adjustment range of the scope to shoot long range with heavy pellets. The scopes I’m looking at all have 60MOA adjustment range. And I’ll need most of that to shoot a JSB Monster to 100y, or a H&N Baracuda to 150y; pellets heavier than that will need more adjustment range yet.
You asked about the gun's weight: 6 lbs.
Elephant Tubes
Here’s a 35mm tube...
https://www.centerfireguns.com/leupold-mk8-35mm-3-25x56ffil-h59-170814.html (https://www.centerfireguns.com/leupold-mk8-35mm-3-25x56ffil-h59-170814.html)
$4,700
O, you get 1 cent change back. ::)
Here’s a 35mm for only $400: 8)
https://www.vectoroptics.com/Atlas-5-30x56-SCOL-04-Riflescope.html (https://www.vectoroptics.com/Atlas-5-30x56-SCOL-04-Riflescope.html)
And Zeiss has bestowed us with several 36mm tubes:
https://rcsoptics.com/collections/rifle-scope/36mm (https://rcsoptics.com/collections/rifle-scope/36mm)
Prices start at a low $2,600, this surely is a bargain.... :o
-
I think you already know my views about objective diameter, the requirement is based on the maximum magnification you require before the image dims to the point it degrades the contrast and your ability to hit your target.... My personal preference is for an exit pupil of 3mm or larger, and MUCH larger for dawn and dusk hunting.... For that I like at least 8 mm, and the field of view that low magnification provides for quick target acquisition.... The diameter of the tube makes basically NO difference to the size of the exit pupil, and hence the brightness of the image.... It does, however, provide room for a greater elevation change.... If the tube is so small as to not take advantage of a huge objective, then there is the possibility it may restrict the MAXIMUM exit pupil diameter when at low magnifications, but at high powers it will make no difference to the exit pupil or the light transmission.... Coatings (light transmission) are of far greater importance than tube diameter, when comparing scopes of the same exit pupil.... Some scopes have excellent lense coatings, comparable to those which may be far more expensive.... Bushnell comes to mind for great brightness and image clarity, even in their least expensive scopes....
Based on objective diameter, I usually purchase the following, in variable scopes, all of which have at least a 3 mm exit pupil at maximum power.... 3-9 X 32.... 3-12 x 40.... 4-14 x 44.... 4-16 x 50.... 6-18 x 56.... I do have a couple of scopes that don't fit the above pattern, I have a Hawke SR12 in 6-18 x 44 and a Millet 6-25 X 56, but I only use those when shooting from a bench in good lighting conditions....
Bob
-
Man, a 2lbs+ scope on a 6 lbs gun. Think top heavy. ???
All you need is a 6 foot tall shooting hat that wights 20 pounds, it will help your shooting. :D
Look at Burris adjustable rings...
-Y
With a scope that heavy on such a light gun, how are you going to prevent scope cant?
-
With a scope that heavy on such a light gun, how are you going to prevent scope cant?
What does a heavy scope have to do with cant?
-
With a scope that heavy on such a light gun, how are you going to prevent scope cant?
What does a heavy scope have to do with cant?
Well let us see....1/3++ of the weight will be 2 inches above the centerline/center of gravity. Longer/heavier fulcrum. It probably would be easier to shoot the gun upside down.
Jungle Shooter, you could extend the range of your scope elevation adjustment , and your adjustable rings, by mounting it on a drooper adapter base. Some have 7 degrees of correction.
-Y
-
What does a heavy scope have to do with cant?
[/quote]
If the scope has a built in level-NO PROBLEM. Otherwise will be much harder to keep level.
-Y
-
Nah, I don't buy that. :)
Stock bedded into the shoulder, one hand around the grip, and the other on the forestock. Even a 10lb scope would not adversely affect one's ability to hold it vertical. In fact, one could make the contrary argument. A heavy scope makes it easier to know when it's not being held correctly because when everything is held perfectly vertical, there is no torque attempting to cant the rifle, but as soon as it begins to rotate, a torque would develop that could be felt more easily than if the scope were lighter.
-
Man, a 2lbs+ scope on a 6 lbs gun.
Yogi, my current scope is just 4 oz lighter than what I’m looking at as a replacement, to me that ain’t much more.
My impression is that the majority of our GTA community sets priorities for (a) a light gun and (b) no accessories to lug around (read springer rather than PCP).
I respect that – of course it’s a good thing to not be encumbered by weight and gear – but my priorities are different, and for me performance and options trump light weight. :D
With a scope that heavy on such a light gun, how are you going to prevent scope cant?
Yogi has a point, nervoustrigger, a top heavy rifle is more prone to accidentally tilt to one side. And you are right, too: If the rifle wants to cant, the shooter will feel it.
I think this is much more an issue for spring-powered guns, as the artillery hold leaves the gun precariously balanced on our off-hand and when the double recoil happens any canting movement will be much more pronounced (and of course, at that point the shooter is not supposed to grip the gun tighter and right it....
Solution 1: Bubble level
Solution 2: PCP
Jungle Shooter, you could extend the range of your scope elevation adjustment , and your adjustable rings, by mounting it on a drooper adapter base. Some have 7 degrees of correction.
Hey Yogi, that is an excellent idea. That allows me to use a 34mm or bigger tube, even if my adjustable scope rings don’t fit. THANKS! Back to Googling it is, then.... :)
Jim - jhm757, you mention the Optisan Viper 6-24x56. That’s a nice scope, a bit pricey, but maybe a used one?
Do you know the elevation adjustment range?
mobilehomer, the UTG 4-16X56, seems like a good deal, however I’d like the turret units to be the same as the reticle (and I prefer MIL over MOA).
-
Quite diplomatic of you...but I'm still not buying it :)
2lbs at 2 inches. Let's say we're canted 5 degrees which is pretty extreme. Sine of 5 degrees = 0.087. 2lbs * 2in * 0.087 = 0.35 inch pounds.
Well less than half an inch pound supported by both hands and a shoulder.
-
If you really wanna hit stuff at long range, I'd quit looking for the most features in my price range and start looking at the best glass in my price range. You want a $400 toy or a serious piece of equipment?
Huge objectives and etc. are little more than sales gimkicks on low end scopes.
-
Only four "features" you should be worried about in a price point scope are eye relief, adjustable objective, enough magnification, and reticle.
Consider investing your money in clear glass, durability, reliable/consistent tracking, and minimal shift when you adjust the objective or magnification settings.
-
I have lots of heavy scopes on rifles. Not buying the weight vs. cant issue either.
-
I have lots of heavy scopes on rifles. Not buying the weight vs. cant issue either.
Personally I just can't stand a big heavy scope. I feel like is a big, heavy, clunky waste of money and energy. Unless it's a dedicated long range varmint or bench rest gun, or you do all your shooting off a bipod in the prone, I would not even fuss with an objective much bigger than 40-44 mm. And in most cases I don't believe a big objective even gives you any advantage over a 44mm. Matter of fact 44mm is pretty darn big to me.
-
I have four ffp scopes and I would recomend the Athlon Argos 6x24 for that price. (Under $300 on Amazon) If you can save a bit more the Swfa 3-15x44 has better turrets.
-
We're certainly lucky that they sell more than one size scope aren't we Bryan.
-
Matthias,
You bring up an interesting question, and - unfortunately - you will get MANY different answers with issues of PERSONAL likes and dislikes.
Let me suggest - if you have not already - go to youtube and look for Cyclops Videos, Joe Rhea. I have nothing to do with the man, nor do I know him, but he covers a LOT of questions, and his reviews are pretty good! I have learned a lot more than I thought I knew, and busted a few myths along the way, regarding scopes, selection, power, etc.
I own 7 or 8 scopes right now, that I personally like, and have gone through a couple dozen - the good, the bad AND the ugly ::) .
Your budget would allows for a decent scope selection to cover your needs as described.
MY critea are now simple: Etched reticle (mildot - I hold, I don't click), clear image, 10y (or closer!) minimum focus WITH a side wheel, up to 16x power (actually 12 is fine, I only shoot to 30y - but even out to 80, 16x is fine) Anything else is a bonus. Better UTGs and Medium Hawke do fine for me!
Cheers
-
Matthias,
You bring up an interesting question, and - unfortunately - you will get MANY different answers with issues of PERSONAL likes and dislikes.
Let me suggest - if you have not already - go to youtube and look for Cyclops Videos, Joe Rhea. I have nothing to do with the man, nor do I know him, but he covers a LOT of questions, and his reviews are pretty good! I have learned a lot more than I thought I knew, and busted a few myths along the way, regarding scopes, selection, power, etc.
I own 7 or 8 scopes right now, that I personally like, and have gone through a couple dozen - the good, the bad AND the ugly ::) .
Your budget would allows for a decent scope selection to cover your needs as described.
MY critea are now simple: Etched reticle (mildot - I hold, I don't click), clear image, 10y (or closer!) minimum focus WITH a side wheel, up to 16x power (actually 12 is fine, I only shoot to 30y - but even out to 80, 16x is fine) Anything else is a bonus. Better UTGs and Medium Hawke do fine for me!
Cheers
Joe is a savage. I love his reviews.
-
I am also interested in a new scope, I have heard a lot of good things about the athlon.
I will check the Cyclops Videos, Joe Rhea.
I have heard it said that a scope should cost about the same as the gun. But I am too cheap for that. So maybe $400.
-
I have noticed that the guys that hunt a lot have a way of cutting through the unnecessary niceties. A scope that is minimal for EBR is unwieldy for hunting.
I will admit that a scope that gives the range would be great for airguns that don't have a very flat trajectory.
-
I am also interested in a new scope, I have heard a lot of good things about the athlon.
I will check the Cyclops Videos, Joe Rhea.
I have heard it said that a scope should cost about the same as the gun. But I am too cheap for that. So maybe $400.
I feel like this logic is outdated. Good glass is easier to make with today's technology. Look at the nicest fixed power optics, even the nicest variable scopes that do not have an adjustable or illuminated objective, and you will see what I mean.
It's almost as bad as saying Leupold models without an illuminated objective is not enough scope for most rifles.
I feel that a Leupold VX3i is a pretty doggone nice range of scopes and they run around $400. Most PCP repeaters put you $100-$200 above that at the low end, excluding a handful of price point guns.
Just something to consider. You can get a very, very good scope for less than $300.
-
I agree that current logic is outdated.
It happens again and again that as the cost of one technology goes up, some other technology cost goes down.
I worked for a company that took advantage of the ever increasing cost of copper wire, and the ever decreasing cost of electronics. The same is true for scopes.
I think that for hunting, especially in low light conditions, a low light camera with a cheap lens set in front of a CCD light sensor array and a small display could be made for $200 or less that would be better than a high end scope. It's only a matter of time until that happens.
-
............... You can get a very, very good scope for less than $300.
+1
Absolutely!
-
Is there a short list for sub $400 scopes?
-
Is there a short list for sub $400 scopes?
I think there are a couple of names you can't go wrong with, and inside of $400 you can pick what you like.
Hawke for starters, very good scopes for the money. You might find better glass but not engineered specifically for air rifles. Hard to beat under $400.
Leupold of course, any leupold "rimfire" scope, or any leupold with an adjustable objective inside the price range. Their rimfire scopes come with 60 yards parallax setting from the factory, still a bit far for air rifles, but in a fixed 4x28 it will still be clear up close and super light weight.
Bushnell- any bushnell with adjustable objective is going to be a nice scope, might not last long on a springer though.
Leapers/UTG- not the greatest glass but the fixed power scopes are great hunting scopes for a springer.
Pretty sure GTA member Scotchmo took 1st in national piston class HFT a few years back, with a UTG variable. Doesn't make UTG better, but for sure, the shooter matters more than the scope. So keep that in mind when you are spending your hard earned money.
-
^ kinda like when Woo Daves (or was it mark davis?) won the Bassmaters Classic with some Zebco spincast combos. Better equipment moght make things easier but at the end of the day, it's the shooter that makes the difference.
-
+1 on the Zebco. I grew up fishing with very old rods, and a Zebco 202. I did try some other more expensive reels, but I would buy a Zebco in a heartbeat if I decided to go fishing today.
-
Is there a short list for sub $400 scopes?
Yes, there is, since 2 minutes ago at https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=150936 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=150936) ;D
Comprehensive scope comparison list, $300 to $500 scopes. With specs and prices.
Now y'all be nice boys'n girls and wait for Christmas.... [vigorous finger wagging] ;)
-
Awesome list and great work. Thank you for taking precious time to compile this list. Time is our most precious resource!
And to answer the weight question- 2 things make a huge difference shooting offhand- weight and balance. So a heavier scope, or higher mounted scope, or heavier and higher mounted scope, can and probably will throw that balance off!!
Also on a spring gun, heavier scopes are more likely to slip in the rings!
-
Awesome list and great work. Thank you for taking precious time to compile this list. Time is our most precious resource!
And to answer the weight question- 2 things make a huge difference shooting offhand- weight and balance. So a heavier scope, or higher mounted scope, or heavier and higher mounted scope, can and probably will throw that balance off!!
Also on a spring gun, heavier scopes are more likely to slip in the rings!
This. My Magnum is a thumper, but shooting it off hand is no joy due to it being long and heavy. Power is irrelevant if I whiff the shot. Which I tend to do quite often. :-[
-
Very nice work JungleShooter.
-
^ kinda like when Woo Daves (or was it mark davis?) won the Bassmaters Classic with some Zebco spincast combos. Better equipment moght make things easier but at the end of the day, it's the shooter that makes the difference.
Hey Bryan,
I am confused ...... does Daves or Davis fish? or shoot? Or could you shoot with a Zebco? Or do you shoot fish .... LOL ;) ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Cheers
-
^ kinda like when Woo Daves (or was it mark davis?) won the Bassmaters Classic with some Zebco spincast combos. Better equipment moght make things easier but at the end of the day, it's the shooter that makes the difference.
Hey Bryan,
I am confused ...... does Daves or Davis fish? or shoot? Or could you shoot with a Zebco? Or do you shoot fish .... LOL ;) ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Cheers
Actually I am sure a couple good ol boys like those dudes actually do shoot.
If you compared the equipment used to win that year to what every opponent was using, the relevance to the scope comparison would be crystal clear.
Edit- yeah i know you was teasing and it was cute. I could not pass on the chance to make a pun.
-
I hear crossbow hunting for fish is becoming real popular. I hear it is the best way to catch snakeheads! ;)
-Y
-
Is there a short list for sub $400 scopes?
Yes, there is, since 2 minutes ago at https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=150936 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=150936) ;D
Comprehensive scope comparison list, $300 to $500 scopes. With specs and prices.
Now y'all be nice boys'n girls and wait for Christmas.... [vigorous finger wagging] ;)
Thank you sir, very helpful and informative. 8)