GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: RedAir on November 03, 2018, 11:28:12 PM
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Hi all, I'm new here, and to airguns. I do have some handguns experience.
I'm looking for a rifle for backyard fun (plinking & informal targets), and occasionally dealing with pests, like squirrels. A .22 seemed like a good choice. I bought a Benjamin Prowler from Walmart last week, the reviews seemed decent. It's $100, so I certainly wasn't expecting anything fancy.
I'm having some trouble with accuracy, but I can't tell if it's me, or the rifle/scope. I cleaned the barrel before using it, and have about 225 shots through it, Crosman Premier Hollowpoints (haven't gotten to try anything else). I'm trying to hold it lightly, attempting an artillery hold. I've shot off-hand, as well as resting it on things. My best so far was seated, resting it on something on an open palm. At 10m (11yd), 5 shots spread about 1.2". Earlier today, 10 shots (standing, with it resting on something) spread about 1.7", still at 10m.
I guess I'd hope to be doing better than that. There are no open sights, so I can't tell if it's just me, the scope, the barrel, or something else. But I'm wondering if I should return it and get something different.
I'd like to stay around $200 or less. I do realize that's still pretty low. I do like the simplicity of cocking a spring-type gun, vs repeated pumps. And gas pistons seem to offer some advantages over metal springs, so I've been mainly looking at those. Something quiet would be good, to avoid bothering neighbors. PCP sounds great, but I'm not looking to spend $400+.
After a bunch of reading, I'm leaning towards the .22 Hatsan 87 QE, which is around $180 at Pyramyd. If there are suggestions (either for a rifle, or my technique), I'd welcome them. Thanks!
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Shooting break barrels is difficult and confusing for me.
I am an old experienced shooter and I still cannot shoot break barrels accurately.
The most accurate spring powered gun that I have is a Browning Leverage.
Crosman Premier Hollowpoints are not accurate in any of my guns.
JSB 8.44 grain .177 pellets give excellent accuracy in several of my guns.
The Beeman P17 is a very accurate and inexpensive pistol.
Walmart has the Umarex Fusion for $122 if you like CO2. It is accurate and quiet and a bargain. Watch the Youtube videos to learn how to change the CO2 cartridges.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/UMAREX-FUSION-CO2-POWERED-PELLET-AIR-RIFLE-AIRGUN/25174732 (https://www.walmart.com/ip/UMAREX-FUSION-CO2-POWERED-PELLET-AIR-RIFLE-AIRGUN/25174732)
Walmart gives you 90 days to try out an airgun and if you do not like it, return it for a full refund.
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I agree with you Earl ! I've got one break barrel myself but now I am a devout pcp shooter pretty much when it comes to hunting. Southern Gunner did a recent video about his only break barrel which is the Crosman Nitro venom and I was actually amazed at how accurately he can shoot that gun. He says you gotta know the gun and he definitely does. I threw in the towel on mine when I cut myself on the scope right between my eyes, that was enough for me.
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Pyramyd's buyer rating seems good for that Hatsan: https://www.pyramydair.com/product-all-reviews/m/hatsan-87-qe-vortex-air-rifle/3650 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product-all-reviews/m/hatsan-87-qe-vortex-air-rifle/3650)
I have a Slavia 634 on the way for $158 from CZ-USA: https://shop.cz-usa.com/ProductDetail/07009_Slavia-634--Cal-45mm-Airgun--Red-Stock (https://shop.cz-usa.com/ProductDetail/07009_Slavia-634--Cal-45mm-Airgun--Red-Stock)
You will find that they are extrmely popular on this forum: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?board=173.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?board=173.0)
That is because they are very accurate springers for the money (due in part to their CZ made barrels). A recent post described the Slavia 634 thus; "as accurate as an HW30S, and as powerful as an HW50S; for half the money".
Now, these Slavia airguns are "old stock" in the USA. They are no longer made by Slavia. Some people are concerned about parts, but springs and piston seals are similar to common airguns.
The only thing I don't like is what some would call a feature: The barrel has a manual latch that must be pulled before it unlocks to cock it; just like an HW35. This does mean there is no effort to "break" the barrel once unlatched, and that the barrel has zero play when closed. The reason I don't like this is because I am not used to it. Once I use it I may change my mind.
Anyway, if you are looking for sub $200 and "accurate" the Slavia may be worth consideration. The other sources for them have already dried up...
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Hi, John. I suggest trying some different pellets with your Prowler. I've had many guns, including a Benjamin Titan that don't shoot Crosman pellets well, but are accurate with H&N, JSB, and/or RWS. My .22 Titan was a tack driver with H&N pellets and disappointing with Crosman pellets.
Even if you decide you want another gun (and another, and another...) you will want a selection of pellets for testing.
At a bare minimum, I recommend keeping a tin of H&N Field Target Trophy, RWS Superdomes, and JSB Exact on hand.
Other well performing .22 pellets include Hatsan Vortex Express, H&N Sniper Light and Baracuda Green, RWS SuperPoint and Super Hollowpoint, JSB RS and Predator GTO.
Have fun!
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Pyramyd's buyer rating seems good for that Hatsan: https://www.pyramydair.com/product-all-reviews/m/hatsan-87-qe-vortex-air-rifle/3650 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product-all-reviews/m/hatsan-87-qe-vortex-air-rifle/3650)
I have a Slavia 634 on the way for $158 from CZ-USA: https://shop.cz-usa.com/ProductDetail/07009_Slavia-634--Cal-45mm-Airgun--Red-Stock (https://shop.cz-usa.com/ProductDetail/07009_Slavia-634--Cal-45mm-Airgun--Red-Stock)
You will find that they are extrmely popular on this forum: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?board=173.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?board=173.0)
That is because they are very accurate springers for the money (due in part to their CZ made barrels). A recent post described the Slavia 634 thus; "as accurate as an HW30S, and as powerful as an HW50S; for half the money".
Now, these Slavia airguns are "old stock" in the USA. They are no longer made by Slavia. Some people are concerned about parts, but springs and piston seals are similar to common airguns.
The only thing I don't like is what some would call a feature: The barrel has a manual latch that must be pulled before it unlocks to cock it; just like an HW35. This does mean there is no effort to "break" the barrel once unlatched, and that the barrel has zero play when closed. The reason I don't like this is because I am not used to it. Once I use it I may change my mind.
Anyway, if you are looking for sub $200 and "accurate" the Slavia may be worth consideration. The other sources for them have already dried up...
I have a Slavia 634 with a wood stock and its an excellent rifle. The Slavia are now made by ZVS IMPEX with a new name Perun 634, concerning the parts for the 634 I ordered many parts directly from CZ and the shipping was not bad at all.
subscriber what's seals and springs are compatible with the 634?
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I am used to shooting Sheridans, but I do own & shoot a couple of break barrel rifles . I hate to see you waste your money , and I think that even if you get a new, more expensive Springer, you are going to be dissatisfied, for awhile. They all seem to need breaking in , [ more than 225 shots] , & you need to learn to hold the rifle ever which way it needs to be held for accuracy. I have one that needs to be held firmly, like a high powered rifle. Another , needs a very light hold, to be accurate. I think more shooting , practicing different ways of holding, trying different pellets, etc. should be done first. Many people are able to shoot that rifle with very decent accuracy.
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Included scopes tend not to be the greatest and are usually included to make you think you're getting a good deal. The only one I've gotten that I still have is the Umarex 3-9x32 that came with my Umarex Fuel.
You might consider trying some better glass and see if that helps things before springing for a new rifle and there are some good ones that can be had for under $100 so you aren't emptying your wallet to get one.
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I have a Prowler in .22 and it took well over 500 pellets to fully break in the barrel. Mine will shoot a 3/4 in group with the Premier HP's at 25 yards now. Mine grouped like yours out of the box. I switched to a different scope mostly for magnification, but I think the eye piece on the stock scope was moving with recoil. I also found more accuracy when I installed a 5x8x2.5 bearing on the trigger pin. At the range I was forced to buy better quality pellets and it did group better. It's definitely better than my Gamo or any other sub $220 springer I've tried. I don't think a cheap Hatsan would do any better. Springers have to be heavy German under-levers (HW77k/97K )or recoil-less designs like a FWB300 or Diana 54 at way over your budget or a low power HW30 at slightly over your budget to do any better.
I'd recommend finishing off a few tins of Premiers and then trying some JSB 15.89g or 18.1g pellets and some H&N FTT pellets. That Prowler is capable of nickle size groups at 25 yards with the right pellet.
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I have a Prowler and a CZ634 as well.
We all know that triggers make a huge difference in accuracy. First thing I did to the Prowler was do the trigger/bearing mod and install a longer trigger adjust screw. I also have a GRTIII trigger for it that I haven't installed yet, but the bearing and screw mod made a world of difference to me, so I can't wait to try the GRT.
Only thing I did to the 634 was remove the upper leaf spring which made a slight difference. Between the two I think the cycle of the 634 is a bit smoother.
If you decide to keep the Prowler and do the bearing mod be VERY careful as the wrong size bearing can make it a dangerous trigger. There are multiple links on the Web showing how to do this. Most people seem to leave the trigger return spring out, but I kept mine in as did the person in this post: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=128722.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=128722.0)
Here's another that basically says the same thing: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?325337-Crossman-trigger-job (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?325337-Crossman-trigger-job)
Just did a quick search and I think this is the video link I used:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7QimswXxsw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7QimswXxsw)
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Thank you all for the info and suggestions! I appreciate it.
I will have to do some reading on the Slavia 634. I have a CZ pistol which I'm happy with. But the idea of getting something that could be difficult for parts is a bit disconcerting. Internet forums like this are also such a great resource, so that I tend to go for products/brands with more users, and therefore more support. The Czech gate here seems rather quiet (one page of posts goes back 11 months). Maybe that's just because they're awesome and don't need much help.
I can deal with a learning curve, but I admit it's less appealing if I'm not sure whether my particular rifle has an accuracy payoff at the end of that curve rainbow. And I have no other context or experience to compare against. I did install a longer M3x8 screw the other day for the trigger, which significantly reduced the very-long trigger pull. I haven't really looked into the bearing mod.
I will try some other pellets. Sadly, Amazon won't ship to MA, which somewhat reduces my options for selection & free shipping. I shot more of the CPHP today, seated, resting the rifle on my knee & palm. Today I got four groups of 5-shots each, at 10m (11 yards), ranging from 1.8" to 2.7". Two that hit quite high in the 2.7" group felt kinda loose in the breech. I've been trying to hold the rifle very lightly, to let it move. I should try a tighter hold, to see what happens.
I got some Ruger Superpoints today at Walmart (the only other .22 they had). Shot three groups of 5, 1.6" to 2.8", still at 10m.
Either something is kinda going on with hardware, or my skills just leave a lot to be desired :) And it may just be me, I realize. I had thought WM had a 14 day return policy for these, but apparently it's 90, so that give me more time to try things.
I could buy a different scope, I'm just not sure I want to do that, in case I ended up buying something different anyhow which included a scope. I realize my budget is very meager, vs people who are really into this, but $100 for a scope is more than I'd prefer to spend. I have found that you can buy refurbished Hatsans, which would not include a scope, so perhaps not paying for their bundled scope would allow buying a better one instead.
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Well Redair. I would say you are doing pretty well so far with a new rifle that is not broken in . It takes time to learn to shoot a springer and they can be very accurate.
Not much difference if any between break barrel and lever cocking. It takes more than 225 pellets to learn to shoot a spring powered gun.
I don't decry pcps but not for me. Too much bother with air tanks and o rings and on it goes.
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First off, I don't pretend to know nearly as much about A/G's as most of the members here, but I have learned a lot from them.
I do have a couple thoughts on your last post though:
I think the lack of posts in the Czech gate is mostly because not that many people have them and, they are not so easily obtained these days. Those that are available cost 50% more than a year ago when it seemed that vendors were unloading them. For example, I bought one of the last few in stock anywhere back in December '17 for $104 shipped. They are still great rifles IMO, and though parts aren't readily available (if at all) I don't expect mine to krap out on me anytime soon.
You don't want pellets from Amazon anyway due to their poor packaging. Do a search and you'll find plenty of threads in here about that.
You didn't mention (or maybe I didn't see it) what range you're getting those groups at. Depending on that, and the newness of not only your gun, but you and the gun combined, those may not be all that bad of grouping, but here is where I definitely defer to those who know better.
There are very few scopes that come as a combo that are worth even mounting except for looks maybe. I have scopes on my guns that are worth more than the gun itself, but I figure it's worth it if I can shoot better with it. I also have scopes that were great bargains for what they are, but those deals don't come up very often. Most of my scopes are Leapers UTG and there's a deal going on right now if you decide that a nicer scope is where you want to go. First post in this thread will get you there: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=150234.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=150234.0)
Just my 1-1/2 cents worth. Hope it helps.
Dennis
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Definitely return it and get something different. I normally don’t buy spring or gas ram guns without iron sights.
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subscriber what's seals and springs are compatible with the 634?
Gamo piston seal, apparently. I have seen several threads on GTA about springs and other parts, but did not save them.
If and when the time comes, I would just measure the "tired" spring and find one with the same OD, wire diameter and number of coils (or cut to length). The new spring should be longer than the old spring. Pyramyd sells a range of springs, as do many other airgun specialists.
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Thanks all. Stinger177, I edited my last post to add that those groups were at 10m, 11 yards.
Good info on the scopes deals, thank you. I see on UTG's site that they have scopes for air rifles:
(Never mind, I can't post links yet)
It looks like maybe those model #'s linked in the other thread may not be in UTG's Air Rifles scopes list? But it's a bit tough for me to tell.
This UTG scope, "UTG 3-9X32 1" BugBuster Scope, AO", is $60, which is even a nicer price. I just don't know if it's good, and good for spring guns.
(again, sorry, can't post a link).
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John,
Say hi to new members in the welcome to GTA board and you'll be able to post links/photos very quickly.. I'm no help on springers though. Keep an eye on the member classified ads.
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subscriber what's seals and springs are compatible with the 634?
Gamo piston seal, apparently. I have seen several threads on GTA about springs and other parts, but did not save them.
If and when the time comes, I would just measure the "tired" spring and find one with the same OD, wire diameter and number of coils (or cut to length). The new spring should be longer than the old spring. Pyramyd sells a range of springs, as do many other airgun specialists.
Sir, the preferred way to chose a replacement spring is by Wire diameter, number of coils and spring guide diameter.
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I know you are not a fan of multi pumpers. But go read the sticky in the Daisy gate on the 880. It seems like a plastic toy. It is anything but a toy. Then you can be shooting and saving money for a nice HW30.
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Thanks all. Stinger177, I edited my last post to add that those groups were at 10m, 11 yards.
Good info on the scopes deals, thank you. I see on UTG's site that they have scopes for air rifles:
(Never mind, I can't post links yet)
It looks like maybe those model #'s linked in the other thread may not be in UTG's Air Rifles scopes list? But it's a bit tough for me to tell.
This UTG scope, "UTG 3-9X32 1" BugBuster Scope, AO", is $60, which is even a nicer price. I just don't know if it's good, and good for spring guns.
(again, sorry, can't post a link).
Those bug buster scopes are short....you often run into mounting problems with short scopes. A regular size 3-9x32 scope is more versatile.
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Here are the links to Leapers site showing those two Amazon models:
https://leapers.com/index.php?act=prod_detail&itemno=SCP3-U312AOIEW (https://leapers.com/index.php?act=prod_detail&itemno=SCP3-U312AOIEW)
https://www.leapers.com/index.php?act=prod_detail&itemno=SCP3-U416AOIEW (https://www.leapers.com/index.php?act=prod_detail&itemno=SCP3-U416AOIEW)
That UTG 3-9X32 1" BugBuster Scope, AO (that you suggested) was the very first UTG I bought, although I went for the 36 color all-out bling model for a few bucks more. Today's price is about $20 less than I paid two years ago so that indeed is a great price, and in fact, I've been itching to buy something lately and looked at that very scope for one of my newer acquisitions. Unless you're going to do some midnight rodent sniping, I'd dispense with the 36 color bling, and even then you can get by with the RGB.
As far as I know, all UTG's are springer rated with their "True Strength Platform". I'm starting to sound like a UTG advert here. I have them on both my lighter fps (<600) and on my Prowler with no problems (yet) after a year of shooting.
One should give credence to what Bryan says as well though. Open sights are nice, and I'm discovering more and more members here who prefer opens over scopes on a springer, or any rifle for that matter. I'm not advocating scopes here, just my preference with my older eyes, and in fact, I'm messing around with peeps and globe sights on my better guns, but those for me will be more for match shooting (for as long as I can see through them, haha).
The Prowler packs a pretty good punch, so I'd make sure you have the proper scope mount with a stop screw in place, but any UTG should perform well if you choose to go that direction.
One other thing that Bryan said Definitely return it and get something different.
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If I had read that 2 years ago and was in your shoes, I'd give that some serious thought. Lots of nice stuff out there on the used scene, as screwwork just said.
And, (I know, getting long here)..as Paulus suggested above, try that route out. I have three 880's (one new, two restored) and they are all great shooters, and cheap. An HW30s is a great rifle to look forward to.
jmars is right on as well with that last comment.
Time for me to stop typing I think.
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the preferred way to chose a replacement spring is by Wire diameter, number of coils and spring guide diameter.
Don't forget coil spacing. That and the number of coils is a direct measure of how long the spring is. For a given wire thickness, that is what determines spring rate. Coil spacing also affects how much load the spring can take before being coil bound. And it affects how stressed the spring is when the air rifle is cocked; thus the likelihood of sagging or early fatigue failure.
Yes, if the spring has a tight fitting guide inside, then the ID is more important than the OD. On the other hand, the OD is the ID plus two times the wire diameter...
The difference between nominal diameter and actual diameter may be +- 0.005". Worse for a cheap spring.
If the risk of spending $25 on the wrong spring seems too high, I would contact the vendor and ask them to measure the spring ID with a plug gauge; or at least a caliper...
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If the OP did not have a $200 limit, I would suggest an HW30S or HW50S.
They are pricey in the US, but can be bought for "just over $200" (+$30 shipping from Europe):
https://www.krale-schietsport.nl/en/weihrauch-hw30-s-9229.html (https://www.krale-schietsport.nl/en/weihrauch-hw30-s-9229.html)
https://www.krale-schietsport.nl/en/weihrauch-hw50-s-9231.html (https://www.krale-schietsport.nl/en/weihrauch-hw50-s-9231.html)
Many people on GTA have bought from Krale and are very happy with all aspects of the transaction. Shipping to MA from overseas may need to be verified.
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Shoot what you’ve got until it breaks, but buy better quality pellets from Pyramyd Air or a good gun shop. Just getting another Walmart gun won’t necessarily be an improvement. There are plenty of cases where the $100 gun outperforms the $200 gun.
Save up for a quality gun and scope.
Find a local shooter to show you what a good gun feels like. Either search around here or go to one of the gatherings, etc. Shoot somebody’s gun that’s been properly tuned and see the difference for yourself.
You can make inexpensive guns work well but obviously you have to know what to aim for and what to do.
15 minutes with a good shooter will explain more than five years of fooling around, ask me how I learned this lesson!
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Piston seal and spring for Slavia 634:
https://www.afg-defense.eu/piston-seal-slavia-634/ (https://www.afg-defense.eu/piston-seal-slavia-634/)
https://www.afg-defense.eu/airgun-standard-mainspring-for-slavia-634/ (https://www.afg-defense.eu/airgun-standard-mainspring-for-slavia-634/)
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Well, I couldn't resist a sale, and ordered the $78 "UTG 3-12X44 30mm Compact Scope, AO, 36-color Mil-dot, Rings". I figured the extra $20 vs the 3-9x32 was maybe worth it for the larger zoom range, and larger objective.
I will need to either get different rings, to mount it to the dovetail, or maybe a dovetail->Weaver mount. Amazon has a "UTG Leapers MNT-PMTOWL-A Inc, Dovetail to Picatinn Adaptor Mount, Black", which seems like it would work. With the comment about compact scope possibly creating mounting challenges, the dovetail->Weaver, with some extra length, might be helpful.
Hopefully this will at least reveal how much of my inaccuracy is from the cheap included scope. Unfortunately, this also eats up a chunk of what I'd like to spend. Maybe I'll find that the rifle is working well enough, and I'm just having scope trouble.
(Oh, PS: I did post in the Welcome area, but I'm still not allowed to post links yet. Maybe you need >10 posts or something.)
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You'll need 20 posts...
$200? By all means, contact Mike at Flying Dragon and have him tune something up for you. You won't need to worry about available parts with his full warranty. He'll test several pellets and write the results inside the box.
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$200? By all means, contact Mike at Flying Dragon and have him tune something up for you. You won't need to worry about available parts with his full warranty. He'll test several pellets and write the results inside the box.
Links might be useful:
http://flyingdragonairrifles.org/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=51 (http://flyingdragonairrifles.org/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=51)
http://flyingdragonairrifles.org/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=53 (http://flyingdragonairrifles.org/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=53)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wa_6T4b2wv8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wa_6T4b2wv8#)
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$200? By all means, contact Mike at Flying Dragon and have him tune something up for you. You won't need to worry about available parts with his full warranty. He'll test several pellets and write the results inside the box.
Links might be useful:
http://flyingdragonairrifles.org/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=51 (http://flyingdragonairrifles.org/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=51)
http://flyingdragonairrifles.org/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=53 (http://flyingdragonairrifles.org/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=53)
At the price, a fully tuned flying dragon rifle can’t be beat. You’ll spend a lot more to get that much quality and performance anywhere else. The full tune is the way to go for accuracy, shot cycle, longevity, and warranty.
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The XS-25 full tune is exactly what I had in mind. I've owned 2 of them and was very happy. I sold both to fund other interests but I would grab another in a heart beat if the niche was not already filled.
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Well, I couldn't resist a sale, and ordered the $78 "UTG 3-12X44 30mm Compact Scope, AO, 36-color Mil-dot, Rings". I figured the extra $20 vs the 3-9x32 was maybe worth it for the larger zoom range, and larger objective.
I will need to either get different rings, to mount it to the dovetail, or maybe a dovetail->Weaver mount. Amazon has a "UTG Leapers MNT-PMTOWL-A Inc, Dovetail to Picatinn Adaptor Mount, Black", which seems like it would work. With the comment about compact scope possibly creating mounting challenges, the dovetail->Weaver, with some extra length, might be helpful.
Hopefully this will at least reveal how much of my inaccuracy is from the cheap included scope. Unfortunately, this also eats up a chunk of what I'd like to spend. Maybe I'll find that the rifle is working well enough, and I'm just having scope trouble.
(Oh, PS: I did post in the Welcome area, but I'm still not allowed to post links yet. Maybe you need >10 posts or something.)
You did good on getting that scope, now as others have said, shoot the gun a few hundred more times , it should mellow out, and you will find dime size 10 yard groups in no time.
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You can get your 20 post minimum easily by welcoming new members to the GTA with a warm and friendly hello.
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John - That scope is a good choice and will serve you well on whatever rifle you put it on.
Let us know how things progress after using it for a while.
Dennis
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Thank you guys, I appreciate all the help.
Can I ask if it's better to use replacement scope rings that allow mounting directly to the dovetail? Or to go with a dovetail to Weaver adapter rail?
It seems like the adapter rail would give more options for where to place the (compact) scope, if it was helpful to bring it closer to my eye. But it's another item which could loosen, and it would also make the scope sit higher, since it would mount underneath the included rings. I'm guessing you want the scope as close to the axis of the barrel as possible.
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It seems like the adapter rail would give more options for where to place the (compact) scope, if it was helpful to bring it closer to my eye. But it's another item which could loosen, and it would also make the scope sit higher, since it would mount underneath the included rings. I'm guessing you want the scope as close to the axis of the barrel as possible.
Those are valid points John.
I prefer to use 30mm dovetail rings to lessen any play in the system as you mentioned. Rails however give you more mounting options on a shorter scope. Scope height is a personal preference and goes along with how your cheek fits to the weld and where your sight line falls in. After accumulating all the stuff (rifles/scopes) that I have, I now have a few to choose from. Before that though, I just made a guess based on the price and what I could afford. I've gone back to some of my earlier mounts and found them to be wrong, so I was just putting up with what I had to choose from at the time. I think UTG's are the best rings for their quality and price point, well made as is the scope.
I'm sure that some others here can give you a better guide as to what height to choose.
Hope this helps.
Dennis
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Thanks. I see that UTG makes a 1-piece dovetail mount for 30mm scopes. It's medium height, and one user said he's using it with the 3-12x44 scope. "UTG 1PC Medium Profile Airgun Mount with Stop Pin, 30mm Dia"
The 1 piece mounts are more robust than 2 separate rings , from what I've read, so I may go this route. Of course, somehow Amazon has it categorized as not shippable to Mass (other rings are ok), so I would need to work around that.
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Check with Midway.com as well, but you'll be bombarded with emails afterward.
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I just received my RWS 34P from Cabela’s.
I can tell you without reservation, it is the best deal on a new air rifle under $300.
Will be posting a thread on my experience with this gun so far, later on tonight.
Sneak peak- the FIRST ten shots I fired out of this gun at 10 meters. 10.5 grain Crosman domes right out of the tin, unsorted.
Comes with a decent 4x32 AO scope and a dropper mount, for $150! You can’t beat it.
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Wow, that's awesome! Is that the .177? Their ~$150 price on that one is fantastic. I just wish they could price the .22 similarly, or even just under $200. At nearly $300, it's a good bit more than I was hoping to spend. But I keep reading great things about them, enjoy it! What's a dropper mount?
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Forget about .22 cal brother. It doesn’t have any advantages in piston guns at this power level. Multipumps, sure. Ultra Magnum springer, absolutely. Under 17 fpe, usually balances out better in .177.
Just my opinion, return that thing and get this gun while the deal is available.
You’ll see disparaging posts about dry chambers, honking, grinding cocking- could apply to any breakbarrel. From a weihrauch or fwb, to a Crosman optimus.
Get the 34, if Or when the spring or piston seal fails use the warranty or drop in a tune kit.
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somehow Amazon has it categorized as not shippable to Mass (other rings are ok), so I would need to work around that.
Buy it from Pyramyd and check out via your amazon ID :). At least, that choice is offered to me. Doesn't seem to bump the price...
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Get the 34
The RWS 34 purchaser reviews on Pyramyd shows the right kind of histogram: A spike at 5 stars, trailing to almost no complaints very quickly:
https://www.pyramydair.com/product-all-reviews/m/diana-34p-air-rifle-synthetic-stock/1041 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product-all-reviews/m/diana-34p-air-rifle-synthetic-stock/1041)
Contrast that with the new Benjamin Fortitude: Histogram is too flat, with too many unhappy ratings; and too few "very happy with that" ratings:
https://www.pyramydair.com/product-all-reviews/m/benjamin-fortitude-gen-2-pcp-air-rifle-regulated/4569 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product-all-reviews/m/benjamin-fortitude-gen-2-pcp-air-rifle-regulated/4569)
This means the RWS 34 is a low risk buy, and the Fortitude is likely to disappoint in some way... That is not to say that the best 34s are "better" than the best Fortitudes: A good exemplar of a given PCP (sporting a pressure regulator, as does the Fortitude) will always be easier to shoot well than an equivalently good springer.
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Wow, that's awesome! Is that the .177? Their ~$150 price on that one is fantastic. I just wish they could price the .22 similarly, or even just under $200. At nearly $300, it's a good bit more than I was hoping to spend. But I keep reading great things about them, enjoy it! What's a dropper mount?
Drooper, sorry. Breakbarrels often have droop, meaning the barrel points slightly downward, usually not enough to notice by looking at it. It matters with your scope adjustments, you could run out of adjustment before your gun is zeroed.
Solution- drooper mount, think of it like a 20 moa rail or etc.
Also can shim the scope rings or bend the barrel. But that takes some trial and error might booger it up.
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If I recall right, the UTG scopes usually come with lower profile weaver style rings, a 11mm to weaver adapter rail would be needed if your gun has 11mm and not weaver rail.
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John, a drooper mount points the scope down at a 7 degree angle to match some euro guns that run out of scope adjustment (Diana and older Beemans). I have the UTG drooper version of the dovetail to weaver adapter on my wife's Beeman.
I'm using a one piece scope mount on my Prowler .22 with a heavy 6~24-50 CVLife scope. Either way would work, but the one piece with a stop screw eliminates all possible issues with scope movement. The one piece does add several ounces to the weight though.
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Subscriber, thanks, I didn't know you could use an Amazon login to check out at Pyramyd. I ordered the 1-piece UTG mount (before seeing this), Amazon is shipping it to a friend's house. Pyramyd is having a free-shipping sale until 3AM on 11/8 (not sure how common that is), so maybe I can figure out some pellets to order from them.
Thanks for explaining the drooper mounts. I'd heard of droop mounts, to help compensate for barrel sag on break-barrels, but I wasn't sure if this was something different.
Bryan H, I assume yours is the $150 .177 "RWS Pro Model 34 P Air Rifle/Scope Combo"? That's certainly a heck of a deal. I do see Cabela's has a $230 34 in .22, "RWS Model 34 Scoped Air Rifle", but I don't know what it gives up vs the $335 Pro version in .22. I admit that my preference would be to stay with .22, it seems like the extra pellet energy would be useful for things that aren't paper.
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I agree with Bryan the RWS 34P is the best deal going I have a 34 Classic wood stock and its way more hold sensitive then the P in synthetic I like my 34P so much I got my second one yesterday at the range you'll be shooting 177 is fine and shoots flatter then the 22 just my 2cents
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Subscriber, thanks, I didn't know you could use an Amazon login to check out at Pyramyd. I ordered the 1-piece UTG mount (before seeing this), Amazon is shipping it to a friend's house. They're having a free-shipping sale until 3AM on 11/8 (not sure how common that is), so maybe I can figure out some pellets to order from them.
Thanks for explaining the drooper mounts. I'd heard of droop mounts, to help compensate for barrel sag on break-barrels, but I wasn't sure if this was something different.
Bryan H, I assume yours is the $150 .177 "RWS Pro Model 34 P Air Rifle/Scope Combo"? That's certainly a heck of a deal. I do see Cabela's has a $230 34 in .22, "RWS Model 34 Scoped Air Rifle", but I don't know what it gives up vs the $335 Pro version in .22. I admit that my preference would be to stay with .22, it seems like the extra pellet energy would be useful for things that aren't paper.
The 34 isn’t any more powerful in .22 than .177. Energy is about the same, more velocity in.177 more weight/mass in .22 but they will kill about the same.
Apples to oranges, but the Stoeger x10/x20 series of rifles are at about the exact same power level, even similar swept volume and stroke. I have owned several of them in .177 and .22, not a noticeable difference in the way they kill.
Realistically, on anything bigger than a cottontail or tree squirrel you’ll be using a brain shot and the .177 makes it easier to do with the flat trajectory.
Just my own opinion.
Edit- the .22 version for a little over $200 is a good deal too.
I think the pro compact .22 is a typo, the pro compact has never been imported in .177 in the U.S.
To me, the main difference between the pro and the classic is the pro has no sights. Those scopes are going to break within 2 thousand shots. Most scopes do. Better have open sights.
Personally I just prefer open sights anyway. I will mount the scope for a pellet test and go back to open sights for squirrel hunting. Put the scope back on for hft, just long enough to get my eye on for a match, make it last as long as I can.
If I sell every other rifle including the HW35, I might get some better glass sooner than later. But really for what? So I can save it and shoot my preferred open sights?
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I admit you guys have me thinking about the RWS. The .177 is quite a deal. Though it looks like that one doesn't have a muzzle suppressor, that's only shown in the $335 .22 34 P Combo.
I still prefer the idea of .22, even if it's just to be able to hit harder with something in a live trap (I don't like the idea of relocating, and it's sometimes prohibited anyhow). I was surprised at how similar the muzzle energies were in 2 hypothetical setups, at 1,000 fps and 7 grains, and 800 fps and 14 grains, I figured the .22 would be a lot higher.
But it seems like the .22 might maintain its energy better over distance? Making a bigger difference than the energies at the muzzle would suggest. I'm not a ballistics person. But air resistance goes up with the square of speed, so a faster moving pellet will slow down more quickly. And kinetic energy changes with the square of speed, so that slowdown would really reduce the pellet's energy. Chronograph testing at different distances would answer this energy question easily, of course, but I can't do that.
At any rate, the 34 is definitely food for thought, thank you. The $230 .22 "RWS Model 34 Scoped Air Rifle" would still keep the larger pellet, without as-dramatic a price increase as the $335 .22 combo. I can't quite tell how the $230 .22 package is different than the $150 .177 deal. It's a wooden stock, which I don't really care about. Both have open sights, which is nice. And the RWS lifetime warranty would be a nice feature for either one.
One thing I started thinking about is durability over time. Being realistic for me, this will end up not being used all the time. So if I went to use it in 2 years, and a gas piston had leaked and lost pressure, I might be kinda stuck (I gather that for some brands, like Hatsan, new pistons may be tough to buy). A pure-spring gun may lose *some* force over time, but probably not all of it. And you could replace/upgrade the spring if needed. So I may need to consider metal-spring guns, and not just gas piston.
My 3-12x44 scope arrived today, it's bigger than I was expecting. I should get the mount in a few days, I look forward to trying it, and seeing if there's any improvement in accuracy. Again, thank you all for your time, suggestions, and advice.
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I would reccomend the 34p. I have one in .22 and it shoots very well. Mine is 8 years old now and there is no power difference. You'd probably see a flatter trajectory with .177
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My 3-12x44 scope arrived today, it's bigger than I was expecting.
For a more compact, lighter scope, I really like the new Bug Buster 3-12x32 (the accessory focus wheel is very nice too). It's regular price is higher than the sale price on the bigger scope but Black Friday is about to arrive ...
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I got the scope mounted, with the UTG 1-piece mount. I think maybe a droop mount might be better, I used much of the vertical adjustment (15 of the 17 that's marked, I think) to get it close to 0, at 10m. But it's a crisp image, which is a welcome change from the Center Point 4x32 non-AO, which was always fuzzy.
My groups improved some with the scope, I'd say, which is good. I then found the barrel pivot screw was loose, so I tightened & Loctited that.
After tightening it, I did 5 shots last night (bad weather), they were a mess, 3.5" from a rest at 10m (11 yards), with CPHP, and the new scope set to 4x.
Today I tried some more, same distance, pellets, etc. Groups of 5 (artillery-style) were around 1-1.1". I tried a tight grip (pulled tight into my shoulder, etc), and got around 1.5", so I loosened up again.
I zoomed the scope in, to 9x, and got a best of 0.8", to 2.1" for the worst. The weather is cool (maybe 45F), it seems like the first group of a session is larger than the rest, maybe it needs to warm up from shooting? That's OK for targets, but if you weren't aiming at paper, it wouldn't be very helpful.
The only other pellets I could get locally are Ruger Superpoints, they seem to shoot similarly to the CPHP.
I'm leaning towards ordering the Cabela's $230 RWS 34, and hoping for better results. If its included 4x32 AO scope was OK, maybe I could return the UTG, and save some money. The Hatsan 87 QE would have higher fps, it seems, and some are apparently still quite accurate, while also being cheaper than the 34. But I worry a bit about their QC, the warranty is shorter, and I wonder about the piston leaking over time.
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I got the scope mounted, with the UTG 1-piece mount. I think maybe a droop mount might be better, I used much of the vertical adjustment (15 of the 17 that's marked, I think) to get it close to 0, at 10m. But it's a crisp image, which is a welcome change from the Center Point 4x32 non-AO, which was always fuzzy.
My groups improved some with the scope, I'd say, which is good. I then found the barrel pivot screw was loose, so I tightened & Loctited that.
After tightening it, I did 5 shots last night (bad weather), they were a mess, 3.5" from a rest at 10m (11 yards), with CPHP, and the new scope set to 4x.
Today I tried some more, same distance, pellets, etc. Groups of 5 (artillery-style) were around 1-1.1". I tried a tight grip (pulled tight into my shoulder, etc), and got around 1.5", so I loosened up again.
I zoomed the scope in, to 9x, and got a best of 0.8", to 2.1" for the worst. The weather is cool (maybe 45F), it seems like the first group of a session is larger than the rest, maybe it needs to warm up from shooting? That's OK for targets, but if you weren't aiming at paper, it wouldn't be very helpful.
The only other pellets I could get locally are Ruger Superpoints, they seem to shoot similarly to the CPHP.
I'm leaning towards ordering the Cabela's $230 RWS 34, and hoping for better results. If its included 4x32 AO scope was OK, maybe I could return the UTG, and save some money.
I don't have a problem with UTG on the low end. I've owned and used a lot of their cheap fixed scopes. About as good as you can get for a scope that holds up to a spring gun in their price range.
That said, the 4x32 AO that came with my 34P doesn't give up a thing to UTG, for sure. Also, the drooper that it came with lines up/centers beautifully on the rifle. It was literally made for it, so it makes sense.
Why return the UTG scope? I mean, if it works... hang on to it. Piston guns- spring or gas- break scopes. It's a fact, you'll have to buy another before too long if you like to shoot.
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Well, regarding returning the UTG, this little undertaking started with a $100 WM purchase. Then an $80 scope (hoping that could make the original gun significantly more accurate), and possibly a change to a $230 gun. If I didn't return the UTG, I'd now be at $310, if I got the 34. I realize that's still not much for people who are into this, but it's triple where I started :)
If the included scope met my needs, I could save $80 (plus the mount). And if I *did* outgrow/break the RWS scope, I'd be even better-informed when I went to replace it. This is all still hypothetical for now, anyhow.
I do kinda wish I'd bought a 1" scope, vs 30mm. I went 30mm figuring it gives more room for better optics, but it means I can't use the mount that comes with the 34, for instance. Oh well, live and learn.
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Rabbit hole !
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Well, regarding returning the UTG, this little undertaking started with a $100 WM purchase. Then an $80 scope (hoping that could make the original gun significantly more accurate), and possibly a change to a $230 gun. If I didn't return the UTG, I'd now be at $310, if I got the 34. I realize that's still not much for people who are into this, but it's triple where I started :)
If the included scope met my needs, I could save $80 (plus the mount). And if I *did* outgrow/break the RWS scope, I'd be even better-informed when I went to replace it. This is all still hypothetical for now, anyhow.
I do kinda wish I'd bought a 1" scope, vs 30mm. I went 30mm figuring it gives more room for better optics, but it means I can't use the mount that comes with the 34, for instance. Oh well, live and learn.
$300 is a pretty big deal to me, and I totally understand. I am not one of those guys that has money for have 2 or 3 PCP's and support equipment, etc. That's why I am all over this 34 deal. It's QUALITY! There is only one other gun for less than $300 that offers as much or better quality as a 34 right now, and that's an HW30S. And that gun is not quite powerful enough for serious hunting and pest control.
That's also why I really don't care for PCP's. To get the same quality and durability as a Diana 34 in a PCP you are going to spend quite a bit of money. I would say you'd spend well over $1,000 on a PCP and support equipment to get near the same kind of quality with half the reliability as a lowly spring piston 34P. You might find guns more accurate, better triggers, etc with an "okay for now" pump for under a grand but the overall quality and durability won't touch it. And shooting offhand in the woods the 34 will probably hang with anything.
I myself am trimming my collection back to one gun right now. I was gonna keep one of my old guns with my 34 but I am not. I might keep a cheap pumper or two because I can't get nothing for them. Anything I can get something for is gonna be sold. The 34 with the supplied scope is fully satisfactory for my needs, and the rifle itself moreso. I just need one good gun.
I have one good deer rifle, one good shotgun, one good air rifle. A nice rimfire for my oldest daughter, might get another one for my youngest next year. (i feel a good air rifle covers rimfire and airgun for my own purposes). Getting them both bb guns this year to cover backyard plinking for them. Have another nice shotgun for my wife. Altogether that's more than I need and covers all my bases and them some.
There isn't a really nice scope that fits my criteria within budget. I'd have to drop at least over $200 to get a scope with o.k. glass, durable enough, adequate magnification, and correct reticle for my purposes. I want a scope with which I could hang in HFT, that is durable enough to shoot daily on a breakbarrel and get me through a couple of years. I don't have money to buy and break scopes all the "dang" time, or even to ship them for warranty service. So I'd just as soon stick with the fixed scope and the open sights the 34 comes with. Open sights are great, holds zero, crystal clear haha.
Give that scope a real good look and compare the optical quality of it it to something in the store of similar price, like a bushnell or something. Anything on display you can look through. If you feel like you got ripped off after that, return it. Definitely return the rifle. I have had lots of B18/B19 variant guns a whole lot better than that. And that's what your gun is, a B18/B19 variant. At 10 meters after a tin of ammo it ought to do at least consistently better than 2 inch groups regardless of your experience with a spring gun if you are perusing the forums and trying your best, experimenting with ammo and etc.
Now the wrong ammo your gun don't like could throw groups all to *(&^! Ammo your gun likes vs ammo it don't the difference between a ragged hole and barely on paper insome cases.
The 34 is good enough to be your one gun if it needs to. It's built to last, easy to work on, easy to find top quality consumable parts for, at a good price. If you screw around with cheap guns for the next few years you'll have fun and experience a lot of satisfaction from fixing them, haha. You'll eventuallyhave to work on any air rifle regardless if you shoot often.
Man, I am getting way way way off point and this is a novel. Just let me tell you one more time, and I'm gonna be blunt-
You would be a fool not to get that 34 for the price, all things considered, if you can still get a refund on the subpar stuff you already bought.
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I missed it.
What gun did you end up with?
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Bryan H, thank you for the advice. Unless I figure out some magic with the current gun, I'm probably going to order the 34. I'm tempted by the Hatsans, but worried about QC, and durability over time. It sounds like the 34 would last me as long as I wanted it to, with minimal risk of grabbing it a few years down the road, and having it not work.
I'm not opposed to spending more than my initial $100. Staying under $200 sounded good, but I'm willing to go higher if it's justified. But I'd like to find something that I can buy once, and maybe settle the issue, if you will (not then need to replace it due to a failure a year later, etc).
So far, I've been limited to CPHP and the Ruger Superpoints. People seem leery of buying pellets from Amazon, due to problems with damage in shipping. And I guess I'm just cheap, and paying $9 for shipping from Pyramyd Air has made me hold off so far on buying better pellets. Plus just being overwhelmed by the vast selection to pick from, and not knowing what's a good 1 or 2 types to try.
I missed it.
What gun did you end up with?
Sorry, this discussion has been long, my apologies. I bought a $100 Benjamin Prowler 2 weeks ago, and have been trying to get it shooting "accurately enough".
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I still prefer the idea of .22, even if it's just to be able to hit harder with something in a live trap (I don't like the idea of relocating, and it's sometimes prohibited anyhow). I was surprised at how similar the muzzle energies were in 2 hypothetical setups, at 1,000 fps and 7 grains, and 800 fps and 14 grains, I figured the .22 would be a lot higher.
The advantage of .22 vs .177 for hunting is that with the .22 you have more surface area and therefore more knock down or stun capability, a larger wound channel and less likely for pass through. It's also more satisfying for plinking in my opinion when shooting bottles/jars, cans, spinner and reactive targets.
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the preferred way to chose a replacement spring is by Wire diameter, number of coils and spring guide diameter.
Don't forget coil spacing. That and the number of coils is a direct measure of how long the spring is. For a given wire thickness, that is what determines spring rate. Coil spacing also affects how much load the spring can take before being coil bound. And it affects how stressed the spring is when the air rifle is cocked; thus the likelihood of sagging or early fatigue failure.
Yes, if the spring has a tight fitting guide inside, then the ID is more important than the OD. On the other hand, the OD is the ID plus two times the wire diameter...
The difference between nominal diameter and actual diameter may be +- 0.005". Worse for a cheap spring.
If the risk of spending $25 on the wrong spring seems too high, I would contact the vendor and ask them to measure the spring ID with a plug gauge; or at least a caliper...
Coil spacing or length of an uninstalled spring is a non factor. It is assumed that a new spring will take a set the first time the gun is cocked.
A replacement spring should fit the spring guide snugly to tight regardless of whether the factory spring does.
Check out James Maccari's spring matching page. JM has been making the best airgun springs for many years:
http://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/spring-matching-service.html (http://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/spring-matching-service.html)
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I 100% agree the .22 cal is more fun to plink with.
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Sorry I am late to the party but I just read your entire thread and feel I need to chime in.
"Readers Digest Version":
There is an adage here "Shoot it straight". There is a break-in process and a learning curve to a break barrel, no matter what brand.
I think you are doing quite well for a Noob.
While your Walmart selection of pellets is fine for breaking in and learning your gun, don't expect great accuracy. Run your tin of CPHP and Rugers out then quite screwin around and get some decent pellets. The mentioned JSB exact 15 and 18g and H&N FTT 14.6g are worlds above. If you order those from Pyramyd Air they give you a 4th tin FREE and chose the RWS Superdomes.
Place your open hand that's under the forearm about where the gun balances. At first you may feel too far back (close to the trigger), but that's fine.
Now the long version:
3 years ago I was in you same exact position.
I wanted to get (back) into airguns and was allured by a Break Barrel, I liked the looks of a Crosman Genesis NP, but instead, after a lot of advise here, ordered a Hatsan from PA for what I thought was a lot of money, $160(!) It had issues right out of the box.
I returned it and exchanged it for the Crosman Gennie I originally wanted. (same price) but by then it was out of stock so I had to wait for delivery.
Then strolling through Walmart there was a Beeman for $98, somehow it jumped into my cart. Suddenly, I had a break barrel and another on the way.... All within a month. ;)
The Beeman was my learning gun. If I had not found GTA I would have gave up right there and then.
I was shooting 3" groups with no matter what pellet I tried from WalMart.... and I tried every hold I could imagine. After a few tins of their pellets I had tried, Destroyers, Piranhas, Ruger Pointed, the CPHP's seemed to be about the best. Got about where you are now. 1" on a good day.
But I stuck with it. Machining from those cheap break-barrels is rough, it takes time to wear smooth. But it DOES smooth out, as do you.
I learned to rest the gun at the balance point mentioned above, even bought a cheap set of Allen bags from Walmart and quit using the front hand altogether.
On my trigger hand, the thumb does NOT wrap around the grip, lay it along your trigger finger. LIGHT cheek weld, as light as possible, jaw relaxed.
Then the Crosman showed up. Much better quality than the Beeman, and by now I thought I had it figured out... But no... back to the start!
1000 shot Break-in period with all those Walmart pellets (again), bought a better Hawke scope, even the trigger mod, and then a GTR trigger, got me to the occasional 1"group... :(
I just could believe that a pellet could make THAT much difference or that Crosman Premier Hollow Points weren't the best quality pellets I could find. After all, it's only a pellet ... right?
Then I finally thought about those "expensive" pellets.
Bought a 250 tin of JSB Exacts in 15.89g for my Genesis. I had changed the Beeman over to .177 and picked up some RWS Superdomes for it...and the difference was unbelievable.
3 years later, I am now convinced, use the cheap stuff from Walmart for break-in but don't expect a lot. They're just too inconsistent... after the second 500 ct tin, out comes the good stuff and things start coming together.
I still beat my head against the wall sometimes... on my latest Springer, a QB58, I struggled until I FINALLY found a pellet it likes.
Summary,
- Sure you can get a Klunker, it happens like my Hatsan.
- People here LOVE to spend other peoples money.
- You will get better... be persistent and next thing you know it will cometogether.
- you will have bigger / better guns but don't give up on the first one.
Below is a 3 shot group from that same $98 Beeman Silver Kodiak at 20 yards that has had NO mods what so ever, just "Shot Straight".... sure I am braggin, but that just shows you don't need big money, just patience to learn the technique and break in a gun ;D
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Great advice, above !!
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How quickly I have forgotten the springer breakin blues, I have been lucky with my last few springers , and with in a tin of pellets they were shooting sweet. a couple others in between not so good until I tore them down for new stuff and better lubes. After going to the dark side, it is night and day, hmmm do they have the dark side named wrong ... n/m :-\
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Sorry I am late to the party but I just read your entire thread and feel I need to chime in.
"Readers Digest Version":
There is an adage here "Shoot it straight". There is a break-in process and a learning curve to a break barrel, no matter what brand.
I think you are doing quite well for a Noob.
While your Walmart selection of pellets is fine for breaking in and learning your gun, don't expect great accuracy. Run your tin of CPHP and Rugers out then quite screwin around and get some decent pellets. The mentioned JSB exact 15 and 18g and H&N FTT 14.6g are worlds above. If you order those from Pyramyd Air they give you a 4th tin FREE and chose the RWS Superdomes.
Place your open hand that's under the forearm about where the gun balances. At first you may feel too far back (close to the trigger), but that's fine.
Now the long version:
3 years ago I was in you same exact position.
I wanted to get (back) into airguns and was allured by a Break Barrel, I liked the looks of a Crosman Genesis NP, but instead, after a lot of advise here, ordered a Hatsan from PA for what I thought was a lot of money, $160(!) It had issues right out of the box.
I returned it and exchanged it for the Crosman Gennie I originally wanted. (same price) but by then it was out of stock so I had to wait for delivery.
Then strolling through Walmart there was a Beeman for $98, somehow it jumped into my cart. Suddenly, I had a break barrel and another on the way.... All within a month. ;)
The Beeman was my learning gun. If I had not found GTA I would have gave up right there and then.
I was shooting 3" groups with no matter what pellet I tried from WalMart.... and I tried every hold I could imagine. After a few tins of their pellets I had tried, Destroyers, Piranhas, Ruger Pointed, the CPHP's seemed to be about the best. Got about where you are now. 1" on a good day.
But I stuck with it. Machining from those cheap break-barrels is rough, it takes time to wear smooth. But it DOES smooth out, as do you.
I learned to rest the gun at the balance point mentioned above, even bought a cheap set of Allen bags from Walmart and quit using the front hand altogether.
On my trigger hand, the thumb does NOT wrap around the grip, lay it along your trigger finger. LIGHT cheek weld, as light as possible, jaw relaxed.
Then the Crosman showed up. Much better quality than the Beeman, and by now I thought I had it figured out... But no... back to the start!
1000 shot Break-in period with all those Walmart pellets (again), bought a better Hawke scope, even the trigger mod, and then a GTR trigger, got me to the occasional 1"group... :(
I just could believe that a pellet could make THAT much difference or that Crosman Premier Hollow Points weren't the best quality pellets I could find. After all, it's only a pellet ... right?
Then I finally thought about those "expensive" pellets.
Bought a 250 tin of JSB Exacts in 15.89g for my Genesis. I had changed the Beeman over to .177 and picked up some RWS Superdomes for it...and the difference was unbelievable.
3 years later, I am now convinced, use the cheap stuff from Walmart for break-in but don't expect a lot. They're just too inconsistent... after the second 500 ct tin, out comes the good stuff and things start coming together.
I still beat my head against the wall sometimes... on my latest Springer, a QB58, I struggled until I FINALLY found a pellet it likes.
Summary,
- Sure you can get a Klunker, it happens like my Hatsan.
- People here LOVE to spend other peoples money.
- You will get better... be persistent and next thing you know it will cometogether.
- you will have bigger / better guns but don't give up on the first one.
Below is a 3 shot group from that same $98 Beeman Silver Kodiak at 20 yards that has had NO mods what so ever, just "Shot Straight".... sure I am braggin, but that just shows you don't need big money, just patience to learn the technique and break in a gun ;D
I agree the guns can be made to shoot.
I respectfully disagree that the OP's results are typical or average for the rifle he has.
I also don't believe we should influence him to settle for it. We settled for it and that is why the QC is what it is.
A hundred dollars better spent on another. If not a refund, at least an exchange.
Finally, three shots stacked could very well be luck. If a three shot stacked group is your only evidence of success, I wouldn't call it that. This gentleman is obviously trying to settle in on one gun with a $200 budget- not a bunch if $100 ones. Remember- his accuracy is at 10 yards. You can't hunt with "up to 3 inch" ten yard accuracy, and this is a hunting rifle. Plain and simple- it should be returned.
My 2 cents based on my experience with no less than 7 B18/B19 variants, including two of the Crosman/Benjamin ilk with nitro pistons, as well as at least twice that many $100 breakbarrels.
As they say, your mileage may vary.
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Furthermore, If I were to recommend a rifle in the sub $100 price range to a member, it would be to choose carefully from the classifieds a rifle that has already been straightened out by another reputable member. That, or be ready to tear right into whatever you buy.
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Agree 100% Brian!
But think back to when you were starting here. If you and your gun were a shooter right out of the gate, I think that is the exception.
Being a jerked over Powder Burner myself, I thought I could shoot anything well.
Springers, let alone Break-Barrels are a humbling experience to say the least.
You want more pics for evidence of my personal experience? I can fill this page with pics of sub-dime groups.
That Beeman Silver Kodiak X2 even partook in the off season match gates shooting 10M with very decent scores.
Yes $200 will get you to the next level. But I feel $40 on 2000 higher grade pellets is money well spent before throwing in the towel on a airgun AFTER it is broke in.
As you say, YMMV
To the OP... have you read this?
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=51555.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=51555.0)
Edit: I just read your latest post.... coincidentally, I am now after the break barrel of my dreams. That Crosman Genesis I referred too is up for sale in the classified here for just what the OP is looking to spend. Hawke scope, GRT and PROVEN... just beautiful (in my eyes).
;) 8)
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Thank you all again for your time, I feel bad that this has taken so much of it. But I really appreciate all the insight.
I am supporting the gun with a rested, open hand, at the balance point. I have read the excellent "Beginner's guide" post. I did clean the barrel before starting. I do sometimes get a whiff of smoke (~400 shots in), which seems odd, I might try patches with rubbing alcohol for cleaning the barrel again.
I don't think anyone has made unreasonable suggestions, along the lines of it being "too easy to spend other people's money" :)
I will admit I keep taking a peek at the low-end PCPs. I keep wondering if something in the <$250 range (even a refurb), plus a $30 pump, might be worth considering. The benefit being that you get rid of all the disruptive mechanics of a break-barrel springer. But I realize that, at the low end, I might just be trading one set of problems for another, while adding overhead (a pump, leaks, etc). Long-term durability would probably go down.
The new Nova Freedom (PCP with built-in pump) looks really nice, but is sadly above my price range. The Benjamin 392 does seem like a possible "compromise" choice. A proven multi-pump, with an FPS that's maybe around the RWS 34 (eg- lower than many gas springers). But I don't love the idea of a bunch of pumps required after every shot.
I will try to get better pellets. It's unfortunate that they're tough to find locally. I see that Walmart sells some better pellets (RWS Field Line Superpoint), with free shipping >$35. And I'll check at PA again.
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Bryan H, thank you for the advice. Unless I figure out some magic with the current gun, I'm probably going to order the 34. I'm tempted by the Hatsans, but worried about QC, and durability over time. It sounds like the 34 would last me as long as I wanted it to, with minimal risk of grabbing it a few years down the road, and having it not work.
I'm not opposed to spending more than my initial $100. Staying under $200 sounded good, but I'm willing to go higher if it's justified. But I'd like to find something that I can buy once, and maybe settle the issue, if you will (not then need to replace it due to a failure a year later, etc).
So far, I've been limited to CPHP and the Ruger Superpoints. People seem leery of buying pellets from Amazon, due to problems with damage in shipping. And I guess I'm just cheap, and paying $9 for shipping from Pyramyd Air has made me hold off so far on buying better pellets. Plus just being overwhelmed by the vast selection to pick from, and not knowing what's a good 1 or 2 types to try.
I missed it.
What gun did you end up with?
Sorry, this discussion has been long, my apologies. I bought a $100 Benjamin Prowler 2 weeks ago, and have been trying to get it shooting "accurately enough".
I’ve owned one NP B19. Was not happy with it. Maybe a 12lb trigger pull that wasn’t even crisp. Shot first cold shot to a completely different POI.
I say return it.
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I don't mind a bit. Shooting is probably my favorite hobby and especially airguns. Probably spend more time on the forum, not in this thread than another.
I don't think I have ever ordered premium .177 ammo for an air rifle. Most places that carry pellets have a variety of .177. Always been able to find .177 ammo on the shelf that yields acceptable (often very good) accuracy. Exception being the Winchester 1100 breakbarrel. One exception! And that gun not worthy.
I have to admit I wish I'd have tried some premium .177 ammunition. For sure I will in the near future.
.22 is a little bit tougher, usually only 1 or 2 types of .22 ammo on the shelves of stores nearby. Still, Crosman HP's usually at least shoot okay in most everything. So I have a supply of premium .22 on hand... but no .22 air rifle anymore!
The Benjamin 392 has it's own issues. Mainly overspray in the muzzle. Almost all of them have paint in the muzzle but it's an easy fix (acetone in a q tip) and they are usually pretty accurate once you clean it out. Power is indeed comparable to am is powered breakbarrel. They are much louder than a breakbarrel though.
You have a lot of input and varying opinions here, I hope that it's been helpful, and does not "muddy the waters."
Best of luck.
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John, New England Airgun carries H&N and JSB pellets, just expect to pay $3 more than mail order prices. The range is about 8 miles down rte 495 in Hudson, MA.
The most accurate pellet for the Prowler that I've seen on youtube was H&N barrcuda 21.14g pellet. I was waiting until spring to try that one myself because the NEAG range is strictly lead-free for indoor shooting. So I have been shooting GTO 11.75g indoors. GTO's are expensive at around $20, but it's better than freezing my arse off all Winter.
I also plan to try some JSB Diablo Jumbo heavy 18.13g as they seem to shoot better than average for most people.
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I have also bought pellets from AlchemyAirWerks when I just wanted a tin here and there. When I am working on what my gun likes. He is a vendor here on the forum. That has helped me sort things out.
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A side note on the $220 RWS 34 .22 in wood. It is a good deal. Definitely a higher quality gun than an XS25. But in comparison to an XS25 with a full performance tune from Flying Dragon, probably about a draw to be honest. The 34 is a higher quality gun overall, but will be a little rough out of the box and probably need some time to break in to overcome spring noise and etc. A full professional tune from Flying Dragon is going to be smooth right out of the box, and a guaranteed performer that, for sure, you won't need to fix.
Edit- Unless of course, you are ready and willing to work on your own rifles. But again "your mileage may vary".
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The new Nova Freedom (PCP with built-in pump) looks really nice, but is sadly above my price range. The Benjamin 392 does seem like a possible "compromise" choice. A proven multi-pump, with an FPS that's maybe around the RWS 34 (eg- lower than many gas springers). But I don't love the idea of a bunch of pumps required after every shot.
They do not need a " bunch of pumps " after each shot. I shoot rifles that are very similar to 392's. 90% of the time, all my shots are done with 3 quick, easy pumps. 5 pumps take care of squirrels & a couple more for long distance shots , or large game. I have owned pumpers for 60 years.
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A side note on the $220 RWS 34 .22 in wood. It is a good deal. Definitely a higher quality gun than an XS25. But in comparison to an XS25 with a full performance tune from Flying Dragon, probably about a draw to be honest. The 34 is a higher quality gun overall, but will be a little rough out of the box and probably need some time to break in to overcome spring noise and etc. A full professional tune from Flying Dragon is going to be smooth right out of the box, and a guaranteed performer that, for sure, you won't need to fix.
Edit- Unless of course, you are ready and willing to work on your own rifles. But again "your mileage may vary".
Heh, that starts making my options tricky :) I'm sure the tune is great, but my concern is that it's starting with what could be considered an inferior product, and then works on improving it. The fully-tuned XS25 becomes the price of the 34, but it still doesn't have a scope. So in a way, it's even more expensive than the original. I think I'm OK with the idea of a 34 needing some time to settle in, and having a lifetime warranty behind it, as appealing as the full-tune is. But I have no experience with either one, of course.
I work on my outdoor equipment, etc, so I'm not opposed to tinkering. If the 34 needed stuff that I could do without special tools, then maybe I could do at least a crude version of improving it, in terms of smoothing out spring edges, or things like that.
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The difference is with the fdar full tune, anything inferioris gonna be replaced. It's like getting a gun built of cherry picked parts, then tuned.
The winner in overall quality still goes to the 34. But value for dollar it's close.
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They do not need a " bunch of pumps " after each shot. I shoot rifles that are very similar to 392's. 90% of the time, all my shots are done with 3 quick, easy pumps. 5 pumps take care of squirrels & a couple more for long distance shots , or large game. I have owned pumpers for 60 years.
Thank you, that's good to know. Do you have to aim differently at 10-20 yards, based on 3 pumps, 5, etc? Do you have a sense of the fps with the different # of pumps?
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They do not need a " bunch of pumps " after each shot. I shoot rifles that are very similar to 392's. 90% of the time, all my shots are done with 3 quick, easy pumps. 5 pumps take care of squirrels & a couple more for long distance shots , or large game. I have owned pumpers for 60 years.
Thank you, that's good to know. Do you have to aim differently at 10-20 yards, based on 3 pumps, 5, etc? Do you have a sense of the fps with the different # of pumps?
With a little experimentation, you can get it dialed in so everything from 4-8 pumps still hits inside a inch at ten meters. At least that has been my experience between 2 392's and 2 397's over the years (lifetime).
Get it dialed in right with pellets it likes, you get one hole at the bottom of a 1" target on 4 or 5 pumps, one hole at or near the top of it on 8 pumps, and a good 18 or 20 metersusing a 6 o clock hold and a full 8 pumps. Might extend that another 5 meters with a center hold technique, but the center hold will get you a hair high up close.
Seems like about a 5 meter zero at max charge, using a 6 o clokc hold on a 1/4" tiny target, gets you that good 20 useable meters of trajectory.
Edit- yes a 397 might get you literally a couple more meters. But these pumpers make their power in .22. Very capable hunter in either, much better in .22.
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Be aware that pumpers are not too easily scoped. I haven't followed Sheridans to see if there have been any significant changes but they used to have an issue with barrel separation (from the air tube) with some of the clamp on mounts. And they can benefit from a Super Sear to improve the trigger. So you can figure the cost of the gun plus.
There's really no free lunch with airguns. A decent springer will generally run you over $200, although Mike's clones at Flying Dragon are very capable. For your uses, one of his tuned B25's will get you started and have enough quality to keep you going. If .177, get a sampler pellet kit from Pyramyd, etc, to see what it likes. Air rifles are often "pellet fussy". Stay away from heavy weight pellets. While, yes, you can shoot them, they often wear a spring out sooner (breaking) and then you are faced with sending it off for repair or building a decent spring compressor to do it yourself. (The GTA has great plans for one of those, BTW.) For example, you can have a decent gun like the bamboo stocked 25 with Mike's basic tune. $85 for the gun and $40 the tune. Or get the $100 full tune. You will have to scope it. For $130 he has the 25 with sights and a conventional stock. Maybe shoot irons until you save up for a scope? These are really short range guns so using sights is, essentially, what they were originally designed for.
If Cabelas still offers that Diana 34p combo at $150, jump on it with both feet. I looked for it the other day but could not find it.
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RedFeather, thanks, I think the $150 Cabela's .177 34 deal is gone. I couldn't find it yesterday either.
Interesting point about a scope maybe not really being needed. My current gun doesn't have open sights, so I can't really get a feel for anything but the scope. I will say that, trying shooting off-hand today, standing, with the scope at 9X, was eye-opening, in terms of how much I was moving around :) And that was only at 10m. You would need to be fairly stable just to keep the scope accurately on something small, 20-30 yards away. Or get better at having a stable form, I guess.
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RedFeather, thanks, I think the $150 Cabela's .177 34 deal is gone. I couldn't find it yesterday either.
Interesting point about a scope maybe not really being needed. My current gun doesn't have open sights, so I can't really get a feel for anything but the scope. I will say that, trying shooting off-hand today, standing, with the scope at 9X, was eye-opening, in terms of how much I was moving around :) And that was only at 10m. You would need to be fairly stable just to keep the scope accurately on something small, 20-30 yards away. Or get better at having a stable form, I guess.
I feel for basic marksmanship a high powered scope is a distraction/hindrance. I have a 2.5x muzzleloader scope on one AG for close range stuff and think it is ideal. The low mag lets in light and is really generous/forgiving with parallax and eye box.
At this point, wait for field supply to have a deal on diana's, save for a krale HW, or I think you would be happy with a 392/7. I think that is the best deal going for a self contained gun. I bet you would have more fun with a Daisy 901 than that B19.
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And read up on fundamental airgun shooting. Not just how to hold but things like keeping stock screws tight. Loose screws will make the finest springer throw shotgun patterns. There's a ton of good advice here if you search for it. Above all, don't overthink everything. You did say you are looking to do plinking and pest control. Figure out your kill zones, draw some circles and see how close you can come to hitting them. Have some fun. Kill a box of Animal Crackers or a roll of Necco Wafers (if you can still find them). Keep it fun. I'm a so-so shot on my best days but I still enjoy it.
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Seriously,
The only reason I didn’t buy the B26 from SpiralGroove in members classified is because I really like the Remington Express platform and BryanH was selling an Express in .177 and I have 2 known good .22 barrels for the same platform and wanted to tune something myself.
All I’m saying is there was/is(?) a great deal under your nose.
Also, Flying Dragon is great to do business with. The bamboo stock B25 is twice the gun a B19 is for 2/3 of the price.
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They do not need a " bunch of pumps " after each shot. I shoot rifles that are very similar to 392's. 90% of the time, all my shots are done with 3 quick, easy pumps. 5 pumps take care of squirrels & a couple more for long distance shots , or large game. I have owned pumpers for 60 years.
Thank you, that's good to know. Do you have to aim differently at 10-20 yards, based on 3 pumps, 5, etc? Do you have a sense of the fps with the different # of pumps?
I have a stable full of Sheridans which similar to the 392 , but are no longer made . I think they were some of the best all-around air rifles ever made . They were extremely accurate rifles, right from the factory . My eyesight is not as good as it used to be , but this is how I shot them. I typically set the sights at 10 yards with 3 pumps. I have " killed " a LOT of cardboard, tin cans, etc., with 3 pumps. Then, I set up a new target & move back to 20 yards. I fire a small group to see where it hits. Then, pump 5 times, & try again. It will be mighty close then, or even dead on. REMEMBER, these are super accurate rifles, no special hold is needed & most all pellets shoot quite well . It is no problem for even a 10 year to shoot nice groups. I, usually fine tune the sights & I like to get the rifle to shoot as accurately as possible at 20 -25 yards. Rarely do I need to shoot farther than that, but if I do, I can pump it up to 8 times . 5 pumps is great for small game , 7-8 for larger game , or longer distances. Adjustable power is a great feature with pumpers. I once had to kill a large rabid dog with it that was roaming the neighborhood. I was about 13 & my neighbors, & animal control were proud of me. I still own my first Sheridan & the FIRST time it was ever worked on was about 6-7 years ago . I am sure it has been shot at least 10,000 times !
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And read up on fundamental airgun shooting. Not just how to hold but things like keeping stock screws tight. Loose screws will make the finest springer throw shotgun patterns. There's a ton of good advice here if you search for it. Above all, don't overthink everything. You did say you are looking to do plinking and pest control. Figure out your kill zones, draw some circles and see how close you can come to hitting them. Have some fun. Kill a box of Animal Crackers or a roll of Necco Wafers (if you can still find them). Keep it fun. I'm a so-so shot on my best days but I still enjoy it.
I re-checked the scope screws, thanks for the reminder. The mount to the dovetail was still tight, but 3 of the 4 rings screws on one side were somewhat loose. Despite my cleaning the threads with alcohol, and using blue Loctite last week while mounting it. I re-tightened them, shot a few more groups, they didn't seem better. But I removed & cleaned those screws again, and re-Loctited them.
I don't think I'd be reliably keeping pellets inside a useful circle for something like a squirrel at the moment, even at 10m/11yd.
Horatio, sorry, which gun is the B19? Is my Prowler a B19 variant, you mean?
I'm leaning towards the $230 RWS 34, but the Flying Dragon guns seem to get a lot of good reports. It's good to have options, but sometimes that just makes things tougher, especially if you're prone to over-thinking stuff... :-[
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Prowler is a B18/B19 variant. Basically same gun as a Titan, Crosman Phantom or Optimus, etc. with a different stock.
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I emailed Mike at Flying Dragon on Monday, to learn more about tuning options, and see if he had rifle suggestions.
I almost ordered the $230 wood R34 from Cabela's on Tuesday evening, but wanted to see what Mike said first.
On Wednesday Cabela's sold out of the $230 34, and they told me it was discontinued. Bummer! Missed the deal, my fault.
But last night a member here posted a fully-tuned XS25 in the classifieds, about $145 after shipping. I'm buying that, I hope it will be more accurate than my Prowler.
It should be smooth, etc, based on everything I've read about Mike's tuning. Accuracy is more of the open question, I guess. Hopefully it will work out well!
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That'll do you. Like I suggested, read up on old posts about shooting springers. The main culprits when it comes to loose screws are those in the stock, particularly the forend. Lots of threads on those. Hope you enjoy your "new" gun. Mike does good work, so you are ahead of the game.
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Mike does excellent work. I have the same fully tuned rifle and in .22 and it's not very pellet picky or hold sensitive and it's crazy accurate when I do my part. That rifle should fit your wants and needs very well.
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Mike's trigger tune on the RWS clones is awesome. About as good as you can expect in a breakbarrel. XS25 should keep you fully satisfied.
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Outstanding!
If you are lucky enough to get the original box, Mike usually writes the chrono numbers with various pellets on the inside.
Also if you ever need to contact him, you are best to call in the morning after say, 9:00. Serious, he prefers the phone to talk to you one on one, He is the first one to tell you that.
Congrats!
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I emailed Mike at Flying Dragon on Monday, to learn more about tuning options, and see if he had rifle suggestions.
I almost ordered the $230 wood R34 from Cabela's on Tuesday evening, but wanted to see what Mike said first.
On Wednesday Cabela's sold out of the $230 34, and they told me it was discontinued. Bummer! Missed the deal, my fault.
But last night a member here posted a fully-tuned XS25 in the classifieds, about $145 after shipping. I'm buying that, I hope it will be more accurate than my Prowler.
It should be smooth, etc, based on everything I've read about Mike's tuning. Accuracy is more of the open question, I guess. Hopefully it will work out well!
OP: I don't think you'll go wrong with either that XS25 or one of the RWS 34's.
And for anyone who was mad they missed the amazing Cabelas' deals on the Diana (RWS) 34: They are BACK- both the wood-stocked .22 for $230 and the synthetic .177 for $149! I've got a nice stable of tuned Weihrauchs but couldn't help myself for $149 and it just arrived.
The good: the trigger isn't quite a rekord, but it's still a very, very nice trigger, and unbeatable at this price. And I've been pleasantly surprised by how easy the gun is to shoot accurately, even with the open sights (haven't bothered to put the scope on yet). I was able to shoot a 1 inch, 10-shot group at 10 meters but 7 of the 10 were in .45" and that was offhand with open sights!! When shooting, there is some spring twang, but it's at least as good, if not better, than what I would expect from any quality, untuned, German air rifle.
The disappointing: the cocking stroke. It sounds as though the cocking shoe is rubbing on the spring, especially after cocking when I go to close the barrel. Initially, it took considerable effort even when closing the barrel, but I loosened the pivot bolt a tiny bit and now it's better, but I think the spring is canted and I can hear and feel something lightly "bumping" up and down the spring coils while cocked. The spring doesn't appear to be broken. I wasn't expecting the butter-smooth, silent cocking of a tuned gun, but I was expecting better. I'm pretty sure this is NOT typical and I just got a bad example. I have already confirmed that I can return the gun (at my local store or ship it back). I am going to return mine, but I am going to order another one - it's just too good of a deal!
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The used & fully-tuned XS25 arrived yesterday, it's in nice shape. It seems to operate smoothly, which is good. It's definitely a better trigger than my Prowler. Crisp, though I wouldn't mind a slightly lighter pull.
At 10m, it actually is hitting maybe 1-1.5" high, even with the open sights adjusted all the way down, which seems odd. Then I put my 3-12x44 scope on. Interestingly, at 10m, with the scope zero'd (not using a drooper mount), it's still hitting around 0.5" high. So either there's presumably not much barrel droop, or perhaps the barrel was previously bent up slightly? If it's just a lack of barrel droop, that's good. I haven't gotten to try longer distances.
I've tried the 3 pellets I have currently, Crosman Hollowpoints (14.3), Crosman Domed Ultra Magnums (14.3), and Ruger Superpoints (17.0). The Crosman groups haven't been great, biggest group of 5 at 10m was 2". Some Crosman pellets are quite loose in the breech. I opened the barrel once to check if the pellet skirt was bent, and the pellet fell out of the breech.
This is all sitting, with the gun resting on my open palm on my knee, leg propped up on another chair. I don't have a proper rest setup, this is the most stable I've managed so far.
I'm doing better with the Ruger Superpoints. My best 10m group of 5 has been 0.7". I hope I'm holding it "properly", I've tried my best artillery attempt, with some variations. I will try to use some other pellets, to see how they do.
I've now replaced the scope, and the rifle. So I hope it's the pellets choice causing the large groups, 'cause otherwise that means it's me ;)
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Try a tin of JSB 18.3g heavies. ;)
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Scott said it before I could.... try a heavier pellet.
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Interesting, thanks! Can I ask why heavier may be better for accuracy? The chrono numbers Mike Melick wrote on the box range from 715fps (RWS Hobby) to 552 (JSB 18gr). So at 18, it's getting to the point where I may be able to throw them faster than shoot them :)
The 17.0 Ruger Superpoints seem to fit a little tighter in the breech. That was my assumption for why they were shooting better, being more snug in the barrel. I didn't consider whether their weight was also a factor. But like I've said, I've still got a lot to learn.
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The weight increase was for it shooting high more than group size. But the JSB pellet quality will help shrink the group. ;)
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Slower speed don't mean less effectiveness if it comes with more weight.
Would you rather get hit 10 times from Ray (Boom Boom) Mancini or just once from Mike Tyson?
Hint: You might remember getting hit by Boom Boom.
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Those ruger superpoints have never delivered results worth posting about for me. However, 550 fps with 18 grain JSB domes will literally knock the life right out of a squirrel, inside 30 yards. If your gun can group well with them, they are worth it. To be real honest, I have probably killed more squirrels with 18 grain JSB under 600 fps muzzle velocity, than anything else including rimfire. They hit very hard, stiffen up like they been shocked, and fall off the tree.
You got to see what works in practice. Don't make assumptions!
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Some of the most accurate match airrifles are in the 500fps speeds
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Slower speed don't mean less effectiveness if it comes with more weight.
Would you rather get hit 10 times from Ray (Boom Boom) Mancini or just once from Mike Tyson?
Hint: You might remember getting hit by Boom Boom.
^!!
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Just a solid hit in the ribs with 18 grain JSB, inside 30 yards with 570-585 fps at muzzle (Stoeger X20S's) lays the smackdown every time. The 18 grain JSB often gives you that dime size group, that makes it easy to hit small game in the ribs, a target many times larger than a dime. It knocks the breath right out of em and they stiffen and fall, don't even bound or anything.
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Likewise with a headshot..... lights out.
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Thanks guys. Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was insulting lower speeds. It just seems like everything is zipping along mighty quickly, at least if you listen at all to the marketing claims. It was meant mainly as a joke.
That makes sense about the heavier pellets lowering the point of impact. I'm not worried about it hitting high, at least using the scope. It does seem kind of odd with the open sights. But as I'm already using the scope anyhow, it doesn't matter too much.
And if I don't need to get a drooper mount, great. My Prowler needed about 15 of the 17 (?) total elevation adjustment of the scope (almost 1 full turn of the turret), to bring the POI up to where I was aiming, at 10m. So here, to bring it down a little, I'd need to make a much smaller adjustment, which is good.
I'm looking forward to trying some different pellets.
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The 3 pellets you've been shooting don't shoot well in mine. Yes it will cost more and you'll have to order them online, but better quality pellets will help you a lot in the accuracy department. Your mileage may vary but mine shoots both the JSB 15.89gr and 18.13gr very well along with H&N FTT 14.66gr and Predator Polymags.
That trigger, being the rifle was fully tuned, should also have Mike's 2 screw modification in it and is very adjustable. I never touched mine as it shot very very well just the way he set mine up for me.
This one is mine with a Hawke 2-7x32 AO IR scope and it's taken plenty of tree rats out to 30 yards very easily with Predator Polymags.