GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: Hobbyman2007 on November 03, 2018, 08:13:21 PM
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No pics needed as I think this is as simple as it’s going to get . Step 1 , degas the gun . Step 2 remove air cylinder . Step 3 unscrew the threaded adapter from the action to access the regulator stem . Step 4 unscrew the small stainless screw and remove the white disc . Step 5 apply a small amount of super glue or your favorite adhesive to the flat side of the disc . Step 6 place disc with glue side down ,install screw and tighten to centre the disc. Step 7 , back the screw off about 1/2 turn from just touching the taper in the disc ( this is to allow the regulator piston to stroke) Step 8 reassemble and shoot
I noticed while tuning my .25 conversion that the regulator was acting up and giving big swings in velocity. I took the regulator apart and found the small white disc was floating on the screw. Now how on earth is that supposed to work sealing both the tapper for the screw and the flat onto the seat? Once aired up and tuned the hammer spring to get 450 fps with the JSB kings ( Canadian laws prevent anything over 500fps)I got over 40 shots on regulation with less than 15 fps ES. Much better than the 70 fps ES from before on just about every shot .
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If this works, you're my hero. I've tinkered with that wretched regulator several times and have yet to get it totally sorted out. From the factory, they had that assembly tightened like grim death to squeeze the disc, and it did concern me that air may be seeping around it but it didn't occur to me to epoxy it or glue it down.
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If this fix the problem it would be great. I kind give up on it, thinking maybe getting a huma regulator.
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You’ll notice I’ve tune my pistol to a very low power output ,the worst for regulator creep . This seems to have fixed it completely so far . With now just over 100 pellets through it . I’m filling right to 220 bar shooting down to 100 bar with the same low ES . I’m gonna try to lower the reg pressure a bit and see if it’s still holding up . Most people with the higher power tuned and high reg output pressure don’t seem to have the same problem ,I think this is due to the high amount of pressure on the disc as the reg piston strokes to the closed position . For the half penny the glue costs and the three minutes it takes to disassemble . It’s well worth the effort . ;)
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You’ll notice I’ve tune my pistol to a very low power output ,the worst for regulator creep . This seems to have fixed it completely so far . With now just over 100 pellets through it . I’m filling right to 220 bar shooting down to 100 bar with the same low ES . I’m gonna try to lower the reg pressure a bit and see if it’s still holding up . Most people with the higher power tuned and high reg output pressure don’t seem to have the same problem ,I think this is due to the high amount of pressure on the disc as the reg piston strokes to the closed position . For the half penny the glue costs and the three minutes it takes to disassemble . It’s well worth the effort . ;)
My target is on high side maybe 12-15fpe. My regulator never worked from the very beginning, getting umbrrella or double-umbrella velocity curves.
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I think the way the regulator is assembled is causing some of the issue people are having . There are nearly as many posts about the regulators working great as regulators not . I don’t really think it’s a design issue more of just a tolerance and assembly problem . The glue I’ve put on the disc / seat is more of a bandaid than a repair or mod . I’ll be running it through it’s paces for the next little while to see if it holds up .
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The deed is done! I'll set it to the knee and run a string tomorrow and report back :)
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Denis, you're going to make a lot of folks happy with this one!! Like others, I just gave up on the factory reg and put a Huma in mine. If I had thought of this, or know of it, it would have saved me some $$. Don't get me wrong, I'm quite happy with my setup now, but this is essentially a free fix. Nice job!
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I'm sorry to say it did not solve the issue with mine. My previous attempt involved changing the Bellevilles to 9 in series ()()()()( in order get more travel in the stack and to reduce the setpoint (for a lower power tune). The result was a very long string but it had an upward trend to it...
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=6062)
The string I ran this morning looked the same...started right around 600fps and ended at 650.
Granted it's possible my glue job didn't work. I used an epoxy, thinking it would do a better job than cyanoacrylate at filling any small voids. Later today I'll break it down and inspect to see if it's still bonded or not.
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Didn't think I'd have time but was able to open it up to check the white disc and it's firmly bonded to the reg body. :(
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The issue I had noticed with mine was that the SS screw passing through the white disc was quite loose in the threads of the regulator piston. In my mind it was so loose that there was no way it could stay in a set position as the piston moved and loaded/unloaded the screw and disc. I put JBWeld into the piston threads and light lube onto the screw threads and seated the screw to depth. I kept giving extremely slight turns to the screw as it set up so that the JBWeld wouldn't bind to the screw. Once the JBWeld had set up the screw was much more snug in the piston but could be adjusted. It made mine much more consistent.
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Well, I couldn’t come up with any new ideas for internal changes so last night I went ahead and reassembled it and figured I’d try a different reg setpoint to see if that makes a difference. I went ahead and cranked it around almost a full turn from where it was (previously yielding 600 – 650fps in .177). After dialing in some hammer spring preload, the first shot over the chronograph was over 900fps. That took me by surprise. I figured the single series Bellevilles would not crank up that much.
That’s higher than I wanted to be so I dialed back the reg and the hammer screw and landed on 690fps , then dry fired a bunch and checked velocity at a couple more spots:
200 bar: 690fps
150 bar: 700fps
100 bar: 710fps
So it still has the upward trend I was seeing at the lower tune but it’s not as pronounced. These aren’t precise figures, of course, just the rough averages of a few shots at each pressure.
That’s promising. Tonight I’ll try bringing it up some more and see if it continues to improve. Maybe there’s something to it working better at a higher setpoint. I had tried that earlier on (when the regulator was still using nested pairs of Bellevilles) and it didn’t help but maybe this time will be different.
There is one negative that seems to have resurfaced though. Creep. I suspect that came back from turning the white disc back around the “right way” (matching the tapered hole with the screw) when I epoxied it down. Not sure if I can do anything about that now though. Trying to separate it would probably destroy it.
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Hey guys, a quick update. I tried bumping up the regulator by roughly a quarter turn and dialed the hammer spring so it was producing about 25fps less than the max. It gave a string with the same upward trend as before, and unfortunately it was back to where the last shots were about 50fps higher than the first ones. I thought okay, the regulator acts nonlinearly but somehow the in-between tune from the day before wasn’t as bad so maybe there’s a hammer spring setting that will balance it out. So I dialed up the preload roughly a half turn and the trend shifted the opposite direction…the velocity was gradually declining.
Hopefully that wasn’t a fluke because it suggests there is a setting somewhere in between that the string will flatten out. It was getting late so I’ll have to pick up the chase another day.
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Jason ,
That there is some good info. I think it’s a fine balancing act to get a good flat string . I’m out of town again for another couple of weeks and looking fwd to what you come up with .
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Hi Denis, I tried an in-between adjustment of the hammer spring and that worked. It produced a low of 685 and a high of 709 (3.3% ES) from 220 bar down to 100 bar. That’s better than I need for the modest distances I’ll be shooting so I’m pretty happy with that. No doubt it’s the most particular regulated gun I’ve ever tuned. Usually it’s really easy to dial in the hammer spring for a flat shot string but not with this one, in fact I bet I gave up on other tune attempts that might have worked with a very precise amount of hammer spring preload.
The creep is still a problem though. It came back when I flipped the disc over to the normal orientation. I’ll have to muster up the courage to break it free and see if reversing it again will allow me to get the best of both worlds.
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I'm starting to feel better about my decision to get a Huma again,lol. Hopefully, you guys will get that factory reg nailed down. I'd help if I could, but all the factory reg guts on mine are completely gone.
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I'm starting to feel better about my decision to get a Huma again,lol. Hopefully, you guys will get that factory reg nailed down. I'd help if I could, but all the factory reg guts on mine are completely gone.
Hello, Could you share the link where you bought it?
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I'm starting to feel better about my decision to get a Huma again,lol. Hopefully, you guys will get that factory reg nailed down. I'd help if I could, but all the factory reg guts on mine are completely gone.
Hello, Could you share the link where you bought it?
Here ya go:
https://www.huma-air.com/Artemis-PP700-tuning-pressure-regulator (https://www.huma-air.com/Artemis-PP700-tuning-pressure-regulator)
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I'd buy the factory parts if you want to sell them. Might be useful some day. Let me know.
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I'd buy the factory parts if you want to sell them. Might be useful some day. Let me know.
I don't even know what I did with them. After the mods I did to my gun, it can never be put back to factory, so I didn't put a priority on keeping up with the extra parts. Sorry :D
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No problem. Thanks for the thought.
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Well, it's been a couple of months since I gave an update. About 2 weeks ago I noticed mine was losing air. Fortunately I could hear it coming from around the regulator adjustment screw so I disassembled to replace the O-ring on the brass piece.
Apparently sometime in the intervening weeks, the epoxy holding the white disc gave up. That's actually a good thing...I wanted to flip the disc back over because I was pretty sure the reason the creeping returned is because I had restored it to its factory orientation. That is, so the tapered head of the tiny screw mates to the taper on the disc. So I turned it over so the screw's taper would pull against the sharp edge of the disc (easier for it to seal positively), and this time I used Super Glue like Denis recommended.
I'm pleased to say it looks like I now have a regulator that is working properly and POI for the first shot is right on point.
Here's a test shot at 25 yards after sitting overnight. At a leisurely 6.5fpe (560fps), the trajectory is pretty loopy even at this distance so this is proof positive the creeping is gone.
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Good news! I'll have to tear into one again to see what you mean. I tried gluing one like Denis mentioned awhile back and didn't have the results I hoped either. This would be great!
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The new .22 cal I just received from Wes is as consistent as the Huma equipped one I have . That’s straight from the box . They must have done something a little different either that or Wes worked some magic .
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The new .22 cal I just received from Wes is as consistent as the Huma equipped one I have . That’s straight from the box . They must have done something a little different either that or Wes worked some magic .
I've noticed the reg pressure tends to be higher on these ones than last time, maybe that is helping?
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Thanks Bob. I'm elated to have mine working well but I'd really like to understand the minimum number of things that it takes to get these regs working reliably. There were probably half a dozen things I did and I'm rather sure at least some of them were unnecessary. Those things are scattered in 2 or 3 threads so when I get some time, I'll post a recap of the things I did and my reasons for doing them.
Along those lines, I'm interested in your comment about a higher setpoint being beneficial. Pretty sure I've seen that put forth before but I don't think a theory was given. Do you have one?
BTW, I'm anxiously looking forward to the folding stock. I recently removed a 3-9x scope and replaced it with a compact 4x...it looks way better proportioned but this gun is so accurate that I miss the aiming precision of the larger scope. I imagine the stock is going to tempt me to go back to a larger scope and monkey with the tune again to crank the power so I'll have to reason out where I want to go from here.
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I'm very interested in your results Jason, and I'm sure there is more promise in your latest findings than my comment about the set pressure. I was just wondering about Hobbyman2007 having a more consistent pistol this time around than the one he bought last time. I was simply reporting what I had noticed so far as being different, thinking about creep mostly as being part of the problem with the ones I had worked on, and how the higher set pressure may make it seal in the reg better. However, it seems just as likely the tolerances inside the reg are sloppy enough that some pistols work well and some don't, or some variation in tuning of the reg and hammer spring causes some to be in the sweet spot and some not.
I want to try what you did, flipping over the plastic seal and seeing if that solves creep, along with gluing it. My last attempt at gluing was a failure, but yours was as well befo3your flipped it, so that's exciting. :D
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My reg has been very consistent all things considered, but at my short ranges, even if I'm off by 1cm the squirrel is still dead. I've barely even gone into mine, though. Not long after I got mine I sent to David fabricate an LDC mount... Speaking of which, when the .22 barrels come in, I'm thinking an extended shroud with better baffles is ideal- would be nice to have a compact carbine without the need for any screw-on LDC.
I'm really looking forward to the stock- and will have to get a different scope since my only 4x scope worthy of it is dedicated to my 2400KT. A fixed 6x since I leave my 3-9 scopes right there anyway.
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I've found most of the ones I've tested to be very consistent as well, with a bit of a bell curve or on some a gradual rise in velocity, but within a few fps overall. However creep seems to be an issue on quite a few.
Not a big problem if not hunting, as you can just dry fire a couple shots then go at it, but for hunters it isn't really ideal, unless planning ahead and adjusting aim on the first shot to compensate.
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Okay I'm going to attempt to detail my thoughts on getting the regulator working, most specifically with its tendency to either creep or simply not regulate at all.
To lay a little groundwork, let's quickly cover the symptoms of these problems. If the reg creeps, what you would see is your first shot (after sitting idle for a few minutes or perhaps hours) will be substantially faster or slower than subsequent shots. Whether faster or slower will depend on how much hammer spring preload you have dialed in, but suffice it to say if the trajectory of your first shot is wildly off, the reg is probably creeping. This problem is a minor nuisance for plinking and paper targets but it is a total deal breaker for hunting and pesting duty, and why I hate it like the devil.
On the other hand, a failure to regulate will result in a typical bell curve like this one:
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=6061)
My pistol has exhibited both of these behaviors. Following is a list of the things I've done and why I did them. I want to reiterate that I don't know which of these was essential but it is my hope that it will help others who have struggled with getting stable velocities out of this otherwise promising platform, and perhaps if we get enough participation we can suss out the minimum steps.
This writeup will be necessarily long so as to detail certain duties and assumptions of a properly functioning regulator, and then my corresponding thoughts on why this particular regulator may not do it well and how to go about improving it. So if you have a short attention span, go ahead and hit CTRL+W right now.
- improve the valve seat #1: The white disc has a taper which mates to that of the little screw that passes through it. This little cone is a critical sealing interface between the two parts. What happens is the Belleville washers push these two surfaces apart so as to allow high pressure air to flow from the reservoir into the plenum. As the pressure climbs toward the setpoint, the screw pulls toward the disc until it eventually squeezes closed to halt the flow of air. If there are any imperfections in this little conical area, air will continue to seep very slowly into the plenum and its pressure will continue to rise over a period of minutes or hours.
What we want is for the regulator to cycle quickly after each shot, climb back to the setpoint, and then positively seal. The usual approach is to lap these two surfaces together with a fine abrasive until they have a matching shape and fine surface finish devoid of any microscopic scratches or pits. However, I advocate a little change to help with this seal so let's move on to the next one. - improve the valve seat #2: Looking again at this conical sealing surface, it represents a fairly large surface area. Imagine if we instead had two dime-sized flat discs and we were trying to press them to gether to keep 3000psi from seeping out from between them. They would have to be perfectly flat and mirror polished and then pressed together with supreme uniformity. Well, that's hard to achieve when tiny molecules of air are motivated by high pressure to find their way through. This little cone is similar, just on a smaller scale.
It's easier to get two surfaces to seal well if their contact patch is very small. It's also easier to lap them together to remove any tiny imperfections in the area of this contact patch. Fortunately all we have to do is flip the disc over and we have a simple through hole. So what we want to do is use a black marker to color the surfaces where these two parts meet and then lap them together until a neatly polished ring forms on both surfaces. At that point we know they are mating well. A handheld drill works well for this task, just take care not to chuck it up so tightly as to damage the threads on the screw...and not so loose that it pulls free and chews up the threads as you're doing the job. - sealing the disc to the reg body: Just as air wants to seep around the head of the screw, it also wants to seep under the disc, around it, and up into the plenum. I think the factory attempts to achieve this seal by torquing the daylights out of the assembly to crush the disc, and indeed many users had a problem with a slow leak after reassembling the regulator. It was leaking from one side of the disc or the other, and escaping through the threads.
We addressed the leak by adding the O-ring pictured here:
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=6175)
Unfortunately that only masks the real problem. It simply keeps the leak contained and continues to allow air to migrate from the reservoir to the plenum and increase its pressure. Eventually I presume the pressure rises to the point where the screw pulls so hard against the disc that it helps seal the bottom side of the disc to the reg body.
So Hobbyman proposed gluing the disc down. My first attempt with epoxy appeared to hold after one disassembly but it gave up sometime thereafter, and for all I know it might have already fractured in one localized spot that I couldn't see. My second attempt with Super Glue is working great so far which is just a couple of weeks.
I think it's important to note here three (3) things that I expect will greatly influence the reliability of this fix. Firstly, the repeated stress from air pressure wants to lift the disc. Therefore it is important that the reg be tightened to the absolute best of your ability.
Secondly, a comment about the addition of the O-ring pictured above. I noticed on disassembly that my O-ring was slightly chewed up from screwing the two halves together. That suggests it may prevent them from threading together fully, thus not preventing the disc from lifting. For this reason I'm on the fence about keeping it. As long as the disc stays bonded, it prevents the plenum side of the reg from leaking to the outside world. So I carefully thinned my O-ring before reassembly and it's working but if the disc breaks free again, I will probably omit it.
And thirdly, it's helpful to get the glue bond as close to the hole as possible. Imagine if the glue were only at the perimeter of the disc. Any air that manages to get in under the disc will have a substantial surface area to push against in an attempt to break it free. If the glue bond extends all the way to the center opening, it can't do that. So that was an aspect I paid close attention to when I glued mine, I just had to take care not to overdo it and get a lot of squeezeout into the opening. Fortunately I didn't have that problem. Granted it would be easy enough to clean out so long as I was able to remove the screw. Might be easy, might not. Just be mindful of the fact the brass piston can potentially spin with it and make it difficult to unscrew. Could cut a slot in the end of the brass with a thin emery wheel if you're concerned about that. - Thoughts on concentricity of the plastic disc: When I glued down the disc, I wanted to be sure it was concentric with the axis of the screw. Otherwise they may not seal against each other properly and that effort we put into lapping them together may be for naught. The way to do that is to run the screw all the way down until it squeezes against the disc. However the tap depth on mine was not sufficient to allow it to thread in that far so I added a couple of small washers on top of the brass piston to allow me to do that.
Meanwhile I also want the outside perimeter of the disc to make a good bond. Super Glue (cyanoacrylate) does not bridge gaps well and cures more quickly when the surfaces are close fitting so I also screwed the two halves of the reg together and left it for a few hours to allow it to cure. I don't know that it needed a few hours but when I disassembled it to check on things, the squeezeout was still liquid but the disc seemed to be bonded well. So I proceeded to carefully clean up. I don't know what kind of plastic the disc is made of so I used a cotton swab for cleanup with acetone, allowing some incidental contact with the perimeter of the disc but none to the seat, and not saturating it to the extent that I might weaken the bond between the disc and reg body.
Verbose with a purpose :) - Belleville stack: Regulator Belleville stacks are generally comprised of 5 or more in series. In this particular case, the factory reg had 5 pairs of Bellevilles in series (( )) (( )) ((. A series arrangment has the same spring rate as a single washer (or in the case, the same spring rate as a nested pair that, for the purposes of this topic, I'm treating as a single stiffer washer). So why go to this trouble and expense? Because it makes the setpoint more stable / repeatable with respect to minor variations in the total travel of the regulator as it cycles open and closed, and presumably in the tiny amount of travel that occurs as the regulator goes from almost-closed-but-still-flowing to fully closed.
The PP700 reg has very small Belleville washers compared to most I've worked with and they have correspondingly very little travel. 5 times not much is still not much. To put some numbers to it, each washer has 0.007" of travel which means the factory arrangement only has 0.035" of total travel at best. Potentially much less depending on how much preload is applied and how far the stem has to move to reach the seat. For comparison, a typical paintball regulator using 0.032" Bellevilles has a max available travel that's 2.3 times as much (0.080" vs 0.035").
I reasoned it might behave more repeatably and perhaps creep less if I changed it to single washers in series. That halves the spring rate and therefore reduces the maximum setpoint I can achieve so this may not be an option for those of you wanting your pistol to be a hand cannon. However it's fine for my purposes. Granted, one of the key reasons I originally wanted this pistol was because of its potential to be run at around 12fpe (in .177 caliber) and use it as a 25 - 35 yard squirrel gun. But I've since changed my mind and decided a gun with a barrel the length of a soda straw is better suited as a long shot count 6fpe fun gun for the back yard and I can still keep it on me when I'm hunkered down on a pesting session and a squirrel sneaks up on me from above.
So I figured up a simple series stack that is about the same height as the 5 pairs and it worked out to 8.5 washers which I rounded up to 9. This arrangement ()()()()( bumps up the max travel to 0.063" which is 1.8 times as much as it had from the factory.
So let me reiterate I don't know if this change is useful in solving the problems outlined at the beginning of this post but I wanted to explain my reasoning for you guys to at least consider as part of your overall strategy. Also, I have not explored how high the regulator can be set. I did accidentally get a pellet to hit 900fps shortly after reassembling. It might have been a fluke, I don't know. I promptly backed off the reg and have not yet tried tuning it for higher energy.
That's about all I can think of at the moment, although I have a sneaking suspicion I'm forgetting something. I'll give it some more thought today and if I think of something, I'll post an update.
Until then, best wishes for dependable first shots and long flat shot strings!
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Nice legwork, Jason.
I'll be headed down this path eventually- once Wes gets the .22 barrels in, I'll probably start digging in. My Maximus will be my go-to PCP while the PP700 is "in surgery".
Got some other ideas in the works but travel-season is upon me so I may end up focusing energy on bottle-feeding my 1740 and keep the PP700 mostly-stock.
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Very good layout of what you've tried and the reasoning behind it. Thanks!
Which would you think would be most logical to try first? It seems to me the flipping of the white seal, lapping and gluing, plus the change of the reg stack may all be part of the solution, but I suppose doing the white seal mods first might give a good indication if changing the washer stack is needed.
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Hi Peter, I know the .177 has been very good to you so far so best wishes on the .22.
Wes, if you're keeping it non-PAL (is that the right term in the Canadian parlance?), personally I'd go ahead and reconfigure the washer stack. No need for the nested pairs for a 500fps limit. The only reason to skip it would just be an attempt to gain a better understanding of what changes are necessary. I do hope we can eventually figure it out but don't let that influence your decision because I think we're gonna need multiple instances of corroborating experiences to draw conclusions. I mean, you're welcome to kick things off but this is mostly anecdotal stuff so it's not a big deal.
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Sounds good. I'll rearrange the stack. These are coming with a reduced transfer port size so we'll see if it keeps enough power variance to get it close to 500fps.
Thanks,
Wes
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Oh, and good on you for picking up Canadian parlance 🙂. Non-pal is one way of saying it for sure :D
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That’s a good collection of thoughts about how to go about getting rid of the creep . Good work Jason . I had no idea about what the actual travel of the washers was . There sure isnt a lot of play available . I’d go on a limb and blame the white disc for the creep , although it’s a novel idea I think there must be a better way to seal the reg from the plenum . The initial glue job that I did on my first pistol held up until I installed a Huma Reg . The second has not got the glue treatment yet .
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You guys are making it very difficult to resist the urge to pick up one of these.... If one happens to show up in the classifieds that may be the tipping point.
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You guys are making it very difficult to resist the urge to pick up one of these.... If one happens to show up in the classifieds that may be the tipping point.
For the price, just get one new. I don't there's have been too many duds in the accuracy department. Mine is decidedly not pellet-picky and has put a goodly number of squirrels to rest. I've also used it one-handed at arms length with a rifle scope and nailed a CO2 cartridge at 35 yards many a time. You can adjust the trigger, hammer spring tension, TP, and regulator, and both David (Rocker1) and Donny have adapters to make 'em have a softer bark. I haven't checked with anybody else, but I'm sure others can too.
I keep telling folks it is the best way to get into PCPs since everything is adjustable and the tiny tank makes pumping a snap.
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Well, Stacking the washers like you did, Jason, provides plenty of power to get to 500+fps, even with the reduced transfer port on the Canadian version. I've got the pistol filled and have it tuned to 490fps at the moment, so we'll see in the morning if creep has been eliminated or not. I did as you had, and flipped the plastic seal, spun it against the screw with a drill then glued it down with super glue. Hopefully it's all sealed up now and I can reproduce your results. 🙂
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You guys are making it very difficult to resist the urge to pick up one of these.... If one happens to show up in the classifieds that may be the tipping point.
For the price, just get one new. I don't there's have been too many duds in the accuracy department. Mine is decidedly not pellet-picky and has put a goodly number of squirrels to rest. I've also used it one-handed at arms length with a rifle scope and nailed a CO2 cartridge at 35 yards many a time. You can adjust the trigger, hammer spring tension, TP, and regulator, and both David (Rocker1) and Donny have adapters to make 'em have a softer bark. I haven't checked with anybody else, but I'm sure others can too.
I keep telling folks it is the best way to get into PCPs since everything is adjustable and the tiny tank makes pumping a snap.
Yep! Great gun to start off with in pcp, I agree!
Great for a hand pump too, so no need to buy compressors and tanks and gives a lot of shots per fill.
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Very nice, Wes, you got right to it! I'll keep my fingers crossed.
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Oh by the way, there was still some evidence of creep right after I reassembled. Not as pronounced as before, but the first shot was landing low at 25 yards. After a couple hundred pellets, it was gone. Looks like there was a slight break in needed, I just don’t know why that is because the seat was lapped. Maybe I didn’t quite carry that step far enough.
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Sorry, have had a leak and trouble finding the proper oring to replace the little one that goes on the end of the threaded piece that goes into the pressure tube from the reg. Also putting the belleville in singly seems to leave me without any adjustability at higher pressure, so I switched back. Not sure what the problem was, maybe just the fact it's best not to try adjusting with very much pressure in the gun. I'm thinking now that was the problem, me being to much of a hurry and not degassing between adjustment. Anyway I've got it shooting fairly consistently in the 490's all across the pressure spectrum, but can't tell about creep very well with the leak.
Looking forward to getting it sealed up!
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I'm very interested in getting the reg working on my own .25 conversion. Unregged mine doesn't hit the sweet spot until under 150bar but I don't really want more power so that's just where I've been filling it. I will try to tinker with it over the next couple days. Here's what a string from 200 bar looks like for me currently using JSB 25.95
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Hmm, yeah I don’t know what to tell you about having difficulty adjusting the setpoint unless maybe it was near the top end of the range and the stack was squeezed almost completely flat. As you said, the reduced transfer port may require a fairly high setpoint so that would make sense.
That reminds me, I don’t really know the optimum amount to thread in that little screw that goes through the white disc. That affects how far the Bellevilles must compress before the valve seat closes. With so little travel available in the Bellevilles, I suspect it’s pretty important. Since air only needs a tiny gap to refill the plenum, I’ve been threading it almost all the way down.
Regarding the small O-ring on the stem of the regulator that threads into the air tube, I was able to use a dash size in place of the metric OEM O-ring. Going from memory, it was probably a -008 or -009. I may have jotted it in my notes. I’ll check this evening.
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Wes, according to my notes, here's what I used on both sides of the regulator:
Regulator (to air tube): -007 90 durometer (original was metric)
Regulator (to receiver): -013 70 durometer (original was metric)
The OEM O-rings are pretty soft and didn't extrude so don't pay much attention to the 90 durometer. That's simply what I had on hand. I wouldn't hesitate to use a softer one.
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Thanks Jason! I found out I was trying to fix the wrong oring lol. It was the two orings on the other side that were the trouble. I had assumed it was the little one because it is the one that sees threads but I was wrong.
I spent too many hours on that gun and it was my last in 22 and was sold so I sent it out after finally getting rid of the leak. Seemed to be doing better for creep, still a little but definitely better. Dropped to the 480s after several hours on the first shot from 490s, so not perfect yet. The regulator was working well. Sorry for aborting. I wanted to get this one working perfect for the customer but the leak took up too much time.
The amount to turn in the screw in the seal is a good question. Between that and setting the belleville washers and the leak I must have taken this apart at least a dozen times lol.
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Another quick update from the weekend...
The previous weekend, I put a couple hundred pellets through it and it seemed to be working well. So on Saturday I wanted to get back out and check to see if the changes were holding up...check for evidence of creeping in particular in case the Superglue decided to give way like the earlier epoxy job.
After sitting idle for 1 week, here were the first 5 shots at 25 yards:
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=6195)
Woohoo! That blew my socks off. As I was taking those 5 shots, I had no idea how they were landing. The little 4x crossbow scope on it isn't strong enough to let me see the holes in the paper. So when I walked up and saw all 5 shots produced a group that's about 0.38" CTC, I couldn't believe it. Wadcutters being lobbed 25 yards at 560fps.
Alright that's pretty sweet so I thought, hey let me see if I can ding the spinner target at 43 yards. It had a fresh coat of paint so the hits showed up nicely:
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=6196)
They're off center but look at the consistency of those 5 shots! That was even more surprising than the 25 yard target.
That sort of thing keeps poking me to go back to a big honkin' scope again but it looks so proportioned with the 4x.
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=6197)
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That's awesome! Looks like you've definitely fixed the creep, and have a great barrel/crown job as well!
Fun!
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Jason, I searched a good while for a scope for mine and ended up with a Simmons 4x scope with a very thin set of crosshairs. Linky: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002JF3MCW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002JF3MCW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Fantastic shooting, by the way. I know the other SPA barrels need touching up, but the PP700 barrels seems to be great right out of the box for most.
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Thanks Wes, I sure hope some more folks will be able to get theirs working reliably. For pesting duty, it was frustrating that I couldn’t trust the first shot so I had to restrict it to 10 yards where the creep had no meaningful effect on POI. Finally this opens up some new opportunity to extend its useful range.
Peter, thanks for your scope recommendation. I’ll look into it. The reticle on the current one is really thick so it’s hard to aim precisely. The only reason I was able to do that well on paper at 25 yards is because I was using the grid to align my aim. Unfortunately the chipmunks and house sparrows here don’t have grid lines. I’m sure there was a bit of luck involved too because normally I can’t do that well without a shoulder stock regardless of how much magnification.
FWIW, I had given the barrel some attention a while back. Cleaned up the factory crown and used JB bore paste and bore brite to smooth the bore of surface fretting. Granted I don’t know how much, if any, of an improvement it made because of how many other variables have changed in the interim.
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Thanks Jason, so no shoulder stock yet? It was supposed to be 5-7 days I thought. Seems like more than that now. Looking forward to you and the others getting your stocks, see how you like them. On the Canadian airgun forum, some guys have a thread, started by
Hobbyman2007 (oops, actually Leadslinger with contributions from Tazz) , on tightening up the slop on the stock and putting a rubber stopper on the side to protect the gun when folding it.
Cheers,
Wes
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I don’t have a stock on either of my pistols . I am working on a brace on the bottom of the pistol grip ,similar to a slingshot . My intent is to share the weight from the front of the pistol to my forearm . Maybe that will also help with the shakes I suffer from .
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Cool idea! Sorry for naming you as the starter of the stock thread. I see it was Leadslinger.
I'm looking forward to getting into another creepy gun to see if the steps Jason took will cure the creep in these pistols!
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Not even an issue Wes with mentioning my name , I don’t want anyone thinking I’m taking credit for their handy work . Either way I’m hoping this Reg fix is actually a fix . The .22 cal I have is accurate from fist to last shot . No Reg creep that I can see . Now the sights on the other hand , I find the front post to be a little thick . I’ve got a real simple solution for it . I’ll start another thread for that one .
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Sounds good!
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...so no shoulder stock yet?
Yeah I was beginning to get concerned but it was waiting for me this evening when I got home from work. I'm impressed. Its sturdier than I expected. For those who haven't handled one, the front section that attaches to the gun is a die cast part and the back section is a rigid glass-filled nylon part. It hinges and latches together nicely. There's a tiny bit of play but nothing like the telescoping AR stocks I've seen, and it looks like I can add a couple of layers of UHMW tape and firm it right up.
My only complaint is that I shoot lefty and that puts my nose right at the hinge. Oh it's not what you think...it's not in the way. It's that pungent Harbor Freight lubricant they used on it :) Haha, it's no problem at arm's length but at a quarter of an inch, I knew straight away that had to be replaced with some Superlube oil.
Overall I'm really happy with it. Lightweight, compact, sturdy, good comb height for use with the scope, and inexpensive.
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Glad to hear it arrived safely Jason, smell and all. ; ;D
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Nice start to the Saturday. I stepped out into the cold this morning to try the folding stock. Stood on the back porch and took some offhand shots at the spoon spinners at 25 yards. Literal spoons...shopmade target:
(http://i.imgur.com/iKTtXWV.jpg)
I'm not much of an offhand shot so I tried the soup spoon first. Ding! Another one...ding! Then a teaspoon...ding!
A guy has to know to stop when he's ahead.
Previously I was practicing the taco hold with it in pistol form and was lucky to hit the larger spoons 1 out of 3. I'm pretty sure precision pistol shooting was destined to be like teaching a pig to dance. So yeah the stock is just what I needed.
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That's great! :D
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Well I just had to see what it will do with more magnification so I checked the closet and spotted a little 3-9x32 AO scope, so off came the 4x crossbow scope and here it is:
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=6199)
This Bugbuster knockoff doesn't have very good glass but it has a mildot reticle to give me some useful aim points and it looks right at home.
After getting it zeroed with the RWS Supermag wadcutters, I spent the afternoon plinking with it off and on. With some practice it was hitting a string of 3/8" Mardi Gras beads at 25 yards about 4 out of 5 tries, and it gave me a bunch of groups from 3/8" to 1/2". Plenty good for chipmunks and house sparrows at that distance. It also gave me this little 0.26" CTC (1 MoA) group so I think I can live with it like this for a while!
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=6200)
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Wow! That's awesome! :D
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Thanks Jason, so no shoulder stock yet? It was supposed to be 5-7 days I thought. Seems like more than that now. Looking forward to you and the others getting your stocks, see how you like them. On the Canadian airgun forum, some guys have a thread, started by Hobbyman2007 (oops, actually Leadslinger with contributions from Tazz) , on tightening up the slop on the stock and putting a rubber stopper on the side to protect the gun when folding it.
Cheers,
Wes
drill and tap two holes beside bolts that hold stock on and install two grub screws. Slop is gone .At fold point put apiece of elastic band between two hinge points and all slop is gone in stock. Dam thing was driving me nuts.
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VASH has a nice looking stock for this pistol but I think it is too low.
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Can you shoot it with the regulator removed if you're not interested in shot count, just max power.
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Can you shoot it with the regulator removed if you're not interested in shot count, just max power.
Technically, yes, BUT you will have to make a part to seal the gun if you remove the regulator parts. If you just keep turning up the regulator, it will reach the point of bypassing the reg. That is would be easier than making a piece to get it to seal without the regulator parts. Keep in mind, that can damage the regulator washers though.
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Can you shoot it with the regulator removed if you're not interested in shot count, just max power.
Technically, yes, BUT you will have to make a part to seal the gun if you remove the regulator parts. If you just keep turning up the regulator, it will reach the point of bypassing the reg. That is would be easier than making a piece to get it to seal without the regulator parts. Keep in mind, that can damage the regulator washers though.
I have tried to get as much power as possible with the regulator still in it, but 13fpe is all i got with a .22.
Hammerspring almost maxed out, allen screw of the reg clock wise till the end (and also tried anti clock wise till the end), but it won't go over 13fpe.
What could be the issue here?
The transfer screw at the top of the swinging breech is at level of the breech itself, so it's open.
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If you are still using to stock reg, that’s the problem. It’s not capable of going 130-150 bar to get max regulated power.
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Can you shoot it with the regulator removed if you're not interested in shot count, just max power.
Technically, yes, BUT you will have to make a part to seal the gun if you remove the regulator parts. If you just keep turning up the regulator, it will reach the point of bypassing the reg. That is would be easier than making a piece to get it to seal without the regulator parts. Keep in mind, that can damage the regulator washers though.
I have tried to get as much power as possible with the regulator still in it, but 13fpe is all i got with a .22.
Hammerspring almost maxed out, allen screw of the reg clock wise till the end (and also tried anti clock wise till the end), but it won't go over 13fpe.
What could be the issue here?
The transfer screw at the top of the swinging breech is at level of the breech itself, so it's open.
You could try following the instructions on Huma's site for the install of their reg. They walk you through bypassing the regulator I think? Frank, how did you do yours when you installed the Huma?
I removed ALL the regulator parts on mine and fashioned a PEEK plug with an o-ring that fits under the the reg adjustment screw to seal mine, so I'm can't remember what the recommended process is for installing the Huma :-[
This wouldn't happen to be a Canadian gun would it? I've seen some of the factory guns doing well over the 13fpe max you're getting. I wonder if there is a breach leak happening or something.
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I arranged all the washers in the same direction and tightened the adjustment screw tight. Then on the air tube side I took the little screw out that holds the white disc, dropped in an oring that fit nicely against the threads, centered the white disc and put the cap/plug thing back on as tight as I could. No leaks and everything is good. That’s how Rocker1 did it and it seemed to be the most simple.
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Can you shoot it with the regulator removed if you're not interested in shot count, just max power.
Technically, yes, BUT you will have to make a part to seal the gun if you remove the regulator parts. If you just keep turning up the regulator, it will reach the point of bypassing the reg. That is would be easier than making a piece to get it to seal without the regulator parts. Keep in mind, that can damage the regulator washers though.
I have tried to get as much power as possible with the regulator still in it, but 13fpe is all i got with a .22.
Hammerspring almost maxed out, allen screw of the reg clock wise till the end (and also tried anti clock wise till the end), but it won't go over 13fpe.
What could be the issue here?
The transfer screw at the top of the swinging breech is at level of the breech itself, so it's open.
You could try following the instructions on Huma's site for the install of their reg. They walk you through bypassing the regulator I think? Frank, how did you do yours when you installed the Huma?
I removed ALL the regulator parts on mine and fashioned a PEEK plug with an o-ring that fits under the the reg adjustment screw to seal mine, so I'm can't remember what the recommended process is for installing the Huma :-[
This wouldn't happen to be a Canadian gun would it? I've seen some of the factory guns doing well over the 13fpe max you're getting. I wonder if there is a breach leak happening or something.
No not Canadian, it should be an unrestricted version.
One thing i noticed is that if i unscrew the transfer port choke on top of the swinging breech, and look inside, i can't see the transfer port. It will only be fully visible when i move the swinging breech to the side.
Is that normal?
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The design of the valve with the all the holes captured between 2 orings is that none of them has to be facing straight up.
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Okay, so it looks like i can't bypass the reg with the adjustment screw in the trigger housing, so i decided to take the air cilinder off and rearrange all the rings in the reg in the same direction, that should do it i heard.
The air cilinder is off and now i must unscrew the reg, but holy cow that thing sits tight. Any tips of how to unscrew it?
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Strap wrench. Mine was tight also.
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Okay, just removed the valvestem (the pin/screw which goes through the white valve), put the gun back together, filled to 100 bar to check for leakage, and took some shoths.
Got 13 fpe which i thoughg was hopefull, because there was "only" 100 bar in the cilinder. So filled to 200 bar and took some shots again and got... 7 fpe.
I'm lost...
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You don’t have enough hammer spring to crack the valve at 200 bar/3,000psi. Your hammer spring is designed to crack the valve from 1,000 to 2,000psi or 80 to 130 bar. Remember this gun was designed to be regulated.
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Just out of curiosity, measure the transfer port hole that faces the back of the pellet. Let me know how big it is.
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Just out of curiosity, measure the transfer port hole that faces the back of the pellet. Let me know how big it is.
Around 5mm (3/16").
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You don’t have enough hammer spring to crack the valve at 200 bar/3,000psi. Your hammer spring is designed to crack the valve from 1,000 to 2,000psi or 80 to 130 bar. Remember this gun was designed to be regulated.
Okay, but i see some guys getting +20fpe, how do they do that? Bigger hammerspring?
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Well your TP is the size it should be. Just trying to figure out why you were not getting what you should have out of your gun with the reg still in use. You should be able to shoot a 18gr pellet close to 650fps. Even with the stock crapper reg for 20 shots. They key is not over adjusting or under adjusting the stock reg. It has a very small operating range. Guys put that wrench in the trigger guard and twist that screw too much. Moving a Huma up or down 10 bar is just a tiny move on the screw. The stock reg is no different. This pistol unregulated is a big step backwards in my opinion. If I were you, I would put a Huma in it, then you know where it is set. Set it at 130b and go from there.
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You don’t have enough hammer spring to crack the valve at 200 bar/3,000psi. Your hammer spring is designed to crack the valve from 1,000 to 2,000psi or 80 to 130 bar. Remember this gun was designed to be regulated.
Okay, but i see some guys getting +20fpe, how do they do that? Bigger hammerspring?
The guns getting 20+fpe are not stock. If they are stock, then something is wrong with the chrony telling them they're getting 20+fpe most likely. Granted, mine is .177, but I was only able to get mine up to a little over 25fpe unregulated. That was with me throwing every trick at it I could, and a ton of HS with a 15 grain pellet. If my gun were .22, it would probably be capable of 30fpe, but...
Just for kicks and giggles, (you won't like this Frank,lol), go ahead and really crank that HS down. I'm not talking as far as you can get it with a flat head. I'm talking well past that using a socket. Tighten it down, until the thread of the screw is sticking up 2-3mm past the nut. Do that and let us know what the power is then at 200 bar.
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You don’t have enough hammer spring to crack the valve at 200 bar/3,000psi. Your hammer spring is designed to crack the valve from 1,000 to 2,000psi or 80 to 130 bar. Remember this gun was designed to be regulated.
Okay, but i see some guys getting +20fpe, how do they do that? Bigger hammerspring?
The guns getting 20+fpe are not stock. If they are stock, then something is wrong with the chrony telling them they're getting 20+fpe most likely. Granted, mine is .177, but I was only able to get mine up to a little over 25fpe unregulated. That was with me throwing every trick at it I could, and a ton of HS with a 15 grain pellet. If my gun were .22, it would probably be capable of 30fpe, but...
Just for kicks and giggles, (you won't like this Frank,lol), go ahead and really crank that HS down. I'm not talking as far as you can get it with a flat head. I'm talking well past that using a socket. Tighten it down, until the thread of the screw is sticking up 2-3mm past the nut. Do that and let us know what the power is then at 200 bar.
Missed this reply untill now, sorry. In the meantime i got the stock regulator working again and good too imo, close to 130 bar. I think i will let it this way.
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I would. You should be able to find a nice balance of power and shot count.
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Know this is older but have been working on pp700sa for a while. I am getting 38 shots from 200 bar down to 100 bar lowest shot 704fps, high 728, it averages 711fps with a 14.3 22 cal round. Turning hammer back to 625 I get 50 shots
here is how I tune and seal.
First replace all stock orings.
I then utilize huma regulator and set for 140kph,
I bridge the 2 regulators by remove valve screw from factory reg not needed. (the one that goes thru the derlon seal)
Replace derrlon seal with one that is .356 dia. x .081 thick, drill the center hole with a #44 drill bit. The disk will snap in place most leaks are from the diameter of the derlon.
Turn all belville washers in same direction, place back in factory reg with center facing down, tighten adjustor tite to the max.
reinstall factory reg in place.
Install Huma regulator as directed.
Fill tank to 200bar, turn hammer spring until 700fps is achieved, back off to desired fps. I have put red dot on hammer spring area to indicate 700 for high then use blue and black dots at intervals it allows to set hammer spring with reliability.
Have 3 of these in my collection one over a year old and still functioning at 700fps and no leaks.
Try a H&N 25 grain rabbit hunter round on high, great energy delivery and as usal the accuracy is spot on spot at 25yds.
Cheers
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I’m resurrecting this old thread to report the superglue fix held up for a little over 2 years. I noticed recently that the gun had begun creeping again so I opened it up and promptly confirmed the adhesive had separated and the little white disc was free to move. I’m pleased it lasted as long as it did because I wasn’t confident I had achieved sufficient torque to keep a squeeze on it.
I went ahead and cleaned the residue off the regulator with 0000 steel wool and off the plastic disc with 3000 grit paper. Then I mixed a tiny portion of slow-cure epoxy and used it to set the disc, again taking care to not let the squeezeout block the orifice in the middle. The amount was probably no more than a small grain of rice.
I wanted to be sure to apply a healthy amount of torque this time. My spanner spanner wrench isn’t very strong so I made a little jig…just a wood block with a couple of cutoff nails protruding. That seemed to work well to torque the two halves of the regulator back together.
It’s back up and running nicely now. Previously I was having to limit my fill pressure to about 150bar…anything higher would cause the velocity to begin tailing off. I chalked that up to the input regulation characteristics of this particular regulator. Because I was using such a low setpoint somewhere around 50-60 bar, it still had a generous operating range so that was fine.
But somehow this time around I’m getting a stable velocity even at higher fill pressure so that’s a plus. Is it because I got a better seal (more torque) or did I find a more balanced hammer spring adjustment or was it something else? I wish I could say.
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Thanks for sharing! I'll have to try out this mod again. A bit tricky sounds like but we'll worth it if you can remove the creep!