GTA
Support Equipment For PCP/HPA/CO2 and springers ,rams => Scopes And Optics Gate => Topic started by: JungleShooter on October 26, 2018, 04:52:35 AM
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Are you a Clicker – or Hold’er-Over? – Why Do You Prefer One Method Over the Other?
Some shooters are clickers who like to dial and click the crosshairs of their scope right on the target (or at least the elevation turret). That way their point of aim (POA) is their crosshairs, and their put their POA on the POI (point of impact), and shoot.
(http://IDET.red/A Clicker.jpg)
Others are not clickers, but hold’er-overs. They use a holdover point of the reticle (POA) to aim at their target, thus holding over (or under, or sideways) their POI.
(http://idet.red/A%20Hold'er%20over.jpg)
Clickers – and Hold’er-overs – What kind are you?
And most importantly, why?
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I’m a hold over kind of guy. I guess it’s just easier for me imo.
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I didn't get a christmas tree reticle to do clickies :D
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Clicks for elevation, holds for wind.
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Click for plinking and hold over for hunting.
Why? Plinking is mostly at a set range and hunting varies from shot to shot.
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Good point there. I just try to get closer hunting. I don't have a scope I trust to track for elevation when it counts. I don't have confidence to judge the wind or the distance for that matter. I would hold for wind on about a 30 yard shot, thats as far as I would go on game on a windy day.
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Hold overs for me, keeps me in practice for hunting.
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hold over
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holder over-er. :D
(to me, it's simpler and saves time and trouble)
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Hold over! I actually use my reticle. :D
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In all "FIELD" type work, most of the Field Target shooting done as HOLD OVER using a printed chairgun dope chart.
In a few classes of "Field Target" where we are allowed to CLICK, it is a fun distraction and is more accurate IF YOU HAVE THE TIME TO RANGE AND THEN CLICK ???
So i do both ... pending gun and where / how used.
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I hold over..... mainly cuz Im forgetful under stress
I'll forget to return the knobs to "zero"
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Hold over. Actually didn't know much about clicking or mil-dots until I went to a FT match. Still prefer not to have all them lines in there, but getting more comfortable with them. I got pretty good at estimating (guessing) distances; hold over a bit for real short shots, dead on for mid-range, over a bit for past that, and way over and pray for the long shots. Actually, in the field, I carried a range finder, used it only for the distant targets.
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I hold over..... mainly cuz
I'll forget to return the knobs to "zero"
+1
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I generally spot my pests at the same distances, so knowing my gun and ammo. ..hold over er.
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hold over. I am not sure if the clicks are accurate
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Hold over. Actually didn't know much about clicking or mil-dots until I went to a FT match. Still prefer not to have all them lines in there, but getting more comfortable with them. I got pretty good at estimating (guessing) distances; hold over a bit for real short shots, dead on for mid-range, over a bit for past that, and way over and pray for the long shots. Actually, in the field, I carried a range finder, used it only for the distant targets.
This describes me the closest, except that I do not have a range finder, I have too many different types of scopes and do not know any of them nearly well enough to click other when zeroing. I know them well enough to use the dots or lines reasonably well for the range of distances I shoot.
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Hold over for me too. Having used open sights since I started shooting as a kid, and only relatively recently started using scopes due to my aging eyes, holdover is instinctive to me. Although I'm mainly a hunter, I find holdover to be simple and quick even when I'm practice target shooting at distance. From what I hear though, I'm pretty sure I'd think differently if I was a competition target shooter.
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holdover here. Plinking, target pratice, pesting.
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Hold over/under and windage. All my scopes are MilDot, and I use a chart from Chairgun for help .....
Cheers
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Hold Overer because Clicking very slowly wears out clicking hardware eventually resulting in "Scope Slop".
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I learned holdover shooting pistols at anywhere from 20 to 200 yards and more. Then a duplex reticle on a .22LR rifle. I don't need mil-dots or clicking. There is no substitute for lots and lots of trigger time!!
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I use hold overs. Much easier for me as a hunter then attempting to range, click per chart and let fly. Easier to range, scope and target based on a preset mildot. You get to know your gun, scope and pellets this way and it's much faster in the field then clicks. And time, quite often, is the difference in making/taking the shot and not.
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Your brain wants to naturally center on your visual field of view. So once the scope is clicked for aim, it is a little easier to hold on target.
But I still use holdover for a number of reasons:
1) Clicking is not legal in some of the field target divisions/classes (and I shoot in all of them).
2) Low cost scopes don't always repeat well when clicking (and I'll often use a low cost scope).
3) Clicking will eventually wear the mechanism making it less repeatable.
4) Holdover is faster and no chance of getting off by a turn (though you can easily be off by 1 dot).
I now have a little better scope that should click OK. I tried it at one match and it is easier to hold on target, especially for offhand shots. I might try using it on offhand and kneeling lanes.
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+1 but not competely sure about #3. Do you think this is a cost related concern or in your opinion do even the top level scopes suffer from this? The only scope that I use clicks for shooting is a NightForce and that is rare for me but seems to be common with certain classes of shooters. I have clicked for a shot and forgot to return to zero. Would definitely consider a zero stop scope if using the click method.
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Hold over, simpler for me. My scope turrets are capped so it’s not practical for me to click. Maybe my next scope.
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I have been known to click when I run out of dots at extreme target shooting ranges. Other wise I'm a hold over shooter.
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Wow, wooaah!
I admit I’m pretty new to airgunning, but I was under the firm impression that at least half the serious guys (and gals) out there are clickers.
I have to admit a certain fascination with the clicking, the whole “scientific” shoot-by-the-numbers game instead of the shoot-by-the-seat-of-your-pants method.
Keep the comments coming, please.
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Understand that "Clicking" is only practical when the shooter HAS TIME to get precise range on the intended target, Can be patient in making sure the shot is going to happen only when ready.
Hunting, general field use or just recreational shooting one just points and shoots without the formality of such ranging & turret fiddling. * Seat of your pants shooting !
Somewhere in the middle is those who will use Parallax focus to get a range ... Which takes time and then reference a range card of some sort ... applying the required correction via Hold over.
Ranging via parrilax and then clicking is almost exclusively a FIELD TARGET thing within classes that allow it.
JMO ....
Scott
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I believe that the "shoot by the seat of your pants" method will make one a better shot. More intuitive. And definitely faster. Also less chance of an error-forgetting to return to zero accurately. JMO
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I believe that the "shoot by the seat of your pants" method will make one a better shot. More intuitive. And definitely faster. Also less chance of an error-forgetting to return to zero accurately. JMO
That idea ... corrected to actually what happens, is that the scope stays adjusted to the last range seen and the adjustment made. The scopes adjusted zero range is nothing more than a place in rotation where you zeroed and gets set at if within those specific distances. Other wise your subsequent shot will only be as accurate ( If no adjustment made ) relative to the past shot ... maybe close or perhaps not :P
In other words .... Clicking has specific rotation requirements and where zero range actually is & going +/- of the zero range is really of no importance other than simply dialing in elevation to match POI requirements at range target is at.
Hope this make sense ... reads weird, but point hopefully made ?
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I do both...if the target is at a pre-set distance then I click, if I shot at different targets without knowing their distance then it's hold-over and "Kentucky" windage style.
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Now, I'm really surprised to find hardly ANY CLICKERS or DIALERS? Really?!
Or do I need to change the forum to ask this question (say, post the question in the Field Target gate)?
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Now, I'm really surprised to find hardly ANY CLICKERS or DIALERS? Really?!
Or do I need to change the forum to ask this question (say, post the question in the Field Target gate)?
You'll find a lot of clickers in Field Target. Though in the USA, Hunter Division is the most popular of the three AAFTA Divisions, and they only use holdover.
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Sorry, Scott but it made no sense at all to me. I've always believed in returning to original zero after a shot is taken, not trying to calculate for a different shot from a changed zero. That is why zero stop scopes are especially useful in this regard-you can quickly return to original zero and then reset for a new distance as needed. All assuming that one does use the click method. Maybe that is why holdover is probably best.
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I just started shooting again after a break. This is the first time I've really shot with optics. I click in the back yard. I run the numbers through Chairgun and then click away.
And then I proceed to miss.
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And you'll continue to miss, it's part of the process. But do you enjoy your missing more with clicking or holding over? That's all that matters.
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I'm a clicker on my FFP Mil/Mil scoped gun (sometimes depending on what I'm doing) and a hold-over'er on my SFP scoped gun. It's easy calculations on the Mil/Mil scope and not so much (for me) on the SFP scope. Both are resettable though so I could click on both, but don't because I know my hold-overs really well on the SFP scoped gun, so I just work it that way instead. It's easy to keep up with only having two guns currently.
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Both. Holdover for varmints. Click for targets.
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Sorry, Scott but it made no sense at all to me. I've always believed in returning to original zero after a shot is taken, not trying to calculate for a different shot from a changed zero. That is why zero stop scopes are especially useful in this regard-you can quickly return to original zero and then reset for a new distance as needed. All assuming that one does use the click method. Maybe that is why holdover is probably best.
Speaking of FT use ONLY ... You address a target, get a range and then CLICK to get scope calibrated to that distance ... SHOOT
When addressing the next target, get a range and then click again to that calibrated distance on turret.
No need to Re-Zero because your correcting where clicked on every shot.
if one were to Click in a FIELD USE set up, indeed you would want the gun to alway start out at the known Zero range and have ability to take a quick shot knowing where impact will be +/- within the ZR.
If distance is radically inside or outside the ZR then click correction would be done for that shot and then returned to zero & repeated only as needed.
Clearer ???
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Yes, clearer. Makes sense for FT use which I have no experience with. Do you ever find yourself forgetting to reset/forgetting where you are on the turret or is that something you have a mechanism for avoiding?
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Sorry, Scott but it made no sense at all to me. I've always believed in returning to original zero after a shot is taken, not trying to calculate for a different shot from a changed zero. That is why zero stop scopes are especially useful in this regard-you can quickly return to original zero and then reset for a new distance as needed. All assuming that one does use the click method. Maybe that is why holdover is probably best.
Speaking of FT use ONLY ... You address a target, get a range and then CLICK to get scope calibrated to that distance ... SHOOT
When addressing the next target, get a range and then click again to that calibrated distance on turret.
No need to Re-Zero because your correcting where clicked on every shot.
if one were to Click in a FIELD USE set up, indeed you would want the gun to alway start out at the known Zero range and have ability to take a quick shot knowing where impact will be +/- within the ZR.
If distance is radically inside or outside the ZR then click correction would be done for that shot and then returned to zero & repeated only as needed.
Clearer ???
Speed- is why it’s better to hold for wind, it constantly varies and you’ll never hit it just perfectly. Drop is much more constant at a known distance, just dial it in.
If you are guesstimating on range for drop, it’s better to use a hold. More liable to miss the first shot anyway when guessing distance. Might as well hold, and adjust your hold again when you see where it impacts.
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Q: "Are you clickers or hold'er-overs?"
–> If I take your responses to my initial question as somewhat representative –
it seems to me that most airgunners either all have FFP scopes –
or have dope charts for each of the magnifications they use.
Or am I missing something else?
Your responses simply have puzzled me, :o
I would have expected that about half would be clickers (clicking their elevation turret) and half would be hold'er-overs (using the reticle for different distances)....
Another Q: How expensive do you feel does a scope need to be to withstand frequent clicking? – or what brand/ series does it have to be?
I'm particularly interested in 3-18x or similar, like 4-16x or 3-15x.
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Only Holdovers.
I like the flat trajectory of light weight slugs and pellets as long they give me nice groups. So holdovers work fine for me.
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Hold over/under and windage. All my scopes are MilDot, and I use a chart from Chairgun for help .....
Cheers
+1
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I use hold over/under for my FT shooting in our clubs UKHFT and AAFTA HFT matches. My backyard plinking guns are all zeroed at 25 yards and distances to trees/targets are already known so same over/under works very well.
Mike
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I use holdover or hold under if outside my zero range.
If I had an expensive scope that actually had repeat-ability, I would probably click. During hunting when the target is really small, think the size of a rats head I find it easier if the using the center of the cross hairs. My scopes are all sub $100 so once I get a scope set at the desired range I leave it. Using chairgun I set my zero at .5", that gives me a .25" of leeway on the way to zero. So from basically 8 to 32 yards I just use the center reticle.
I'm not doing FTT and just shooting for the most at 35 yards so I'm typically always in my zero range. My experience most likely is not relevant to this conversation as I just realized after typing all this.
Too late now :-X
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TF89, happens to me too -- I explain something verbally or in writing, and as I do I understand and realize something I did not before...! It helps my brain! ;D
To all of you hold'er-overs, you keep tipping the scale in the same direction as the posters before you.
Me being a clicker I'm feeling really ..................* :-[
*weird?
*embarrassed?
*lonely?
*like a total beginner?
*.........................................
;D
So, then do tell me:
(A) Do you all shoot only with first focal plane (FFP) scopes –
(B) or do you all have and carry dope charts for each of the magnifications you use?
(C) Or do you simply keep mostly within your point blank range, like TF89?
I'm trying to better understand airgun shooting,.... your responses were totally unexpected to me.
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Having learned to shoot first with open sights, then with a 4X duplex reticle scope, I learned holdover. You learn drop and holdover with practice, practice, practice. Set the horizontal at the needed distance above or below your POI. No mil dots necessary. The key is PRACTICE!!!
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Holdover only. I like to practice as I intend to use it on a hunt.
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I set my Zero at a specific range and know the hold over for about 20 or so yards after that, and know my apex to my zero point. I don't like messing around with the turrets, one I have my zero, I usually keep it there unless things may have shifted because of a bump or varying temperature conditions.
wll
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You know I told a lie. I said I am a clicker for drop and use holds for wind, but to be completely honest I just use the mbpr. I haven't adjusted for drop in a good many years and I think the last time i did it with an airgun I held over. Most of the time I use open sights anyway.
It just makes more sense to make adjustments for drop because you can dial that in just right, use holds for wind because it is always variable.
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I'm a holdover shooter. It's quicker to get your shot especially if the critter pops up while you're scanning with your scope. Plus less chance of messing up your zero.
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Holdover as well. Keep It Simple has been the story of my life.
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I’m a hold overer underer guy cuz I’m lazy 😊. But since most of my fun is 10m targets I guess those would be clickerery . Since I dial in windage and elevation usually.
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So, then do tell me:
(A) Do you all shoot only with first focal plane (FFP) scopes –
(B) or do you all have and carry dope charts for each of the magnifications you use?
A- Only have 1 FFP scope and its not mounted yet
B-I set my scope's Mag to where the major divisions of the reticle match 1". then lock it down and never change it (CCA has a great blog entry on how to do that and why you should)
Some range time, a hundred or so shots over the chrony and an hour or so with Excel to generate a dope sheet and Im good for a while.....
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What is "CCA"
Thanks
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Being a back yard shooter? I find it's wasted time to adjust my scope by changing the settings once zeroed.
I zero at 50 yards and know all my hold unders and overs for any given range from 10 yards out to 110 yards.
I'm also pretty good at judging the winds. So I hold left or right as needed.
Did you know the longest Sniper Kill on Record used Hold over/hold left Mil-Dots to complete the shot?
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Being a back yard shooter? I find it's wasted time to adjust my scope by changing the settings once zeroed.
I zero at 50 yards and know all my hold unders and overs for any given range from 10 yards out to 110 yards.
I'm also pretty good at judging the winds. So I hold left or right as needed.
Did you know the longest Sniper Kill on Record used Hold over/hold left Mil-Dots to complete the shot?
I learned holdover using open sights on rifle and pistol. Still use that knowledge today.
Billy Dixon, at the Second Battle of Adobe Walls, used a borrowed 50-90 Sharps to kill an Indian on horseback at over 1500 yards. With OPEN sights!!! There was no clicking! He considered it a lucky shot, but it takes skill and experience to have this kind of "luck".
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It's only been in recent years that Snipers have a spotter to help adjust shots.
The greatest in WWI and WWII and through Vietnam at times, were solo shooters.
A click on the scope adjustments can give away your position.
Now for fun shooting? It's fine if that works for you. I prefer to know how to use the mil-dots.
That's why they are in the scope. If you don't like them? Why buy a scope with them?
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Being a back yard shooter? I find it's wasted time to adjust my scope by changing the settings once zeroed.
I zero at 50 yards and know all my hold unders and overs for any given range from 10 yards out to 110 yards.
I'm also pretty good at judging the winds. So I hold left or right as needed.
Did you know the longest Sniper Kill on Record used Hold over/hold left Mil-Dots to complete the shot?
Was that the Canadian fellow?
-Y
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Being a back yard shooter? I find it's wasted time to adjust my scope by changing the settings once zeroed.
I zero at 50 yards and know all my hold unders and overs for any given range from 10 yards out to 110 yards.
I'm also pretty good at judging the winds. So I hold left or right as needed.
Did you know the longest Sniper Kill on Record used Hold over/hold left Mil-Dots to complete the shot?
Was that the Canadian fellow?
-Y
I wonder what type of reticle? If I could guess it would be a horus or something similar.
Not just talking mil dot or half mil dot, think air max reticle on steroids with more hold points than I am even comfortable looking at.
Great tools but just not my liking. I would get a headache staring at that! But I'm not a sniper hehe
It's only been in recent years that Snipers have a spotter to help adjust shots.
The greatest in WWI and WWII and through Vietnam at times, were solo shooters.
A click on the scope adjustments can give away your position.
Now for fun shooting? It's fine if that works for you. I prefer to know how to use the mil-dots.
That's why they are in the scope. If you don't like them? Why buy a scope with them?
Well if you wanna bring up WWI and WWII, vietnam, etc. you are talking about german #1 reticles and 4 or 6x fixed scopes. Pretty sure Carlos Hathcock used a Unertle fixed 10x with crosshairs and I bet he was a clicker whenever it was an option.
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The only clicking I do is with a ball point pen.
The ranges I shoot at, 25 - 50m, is so short that hold-overs is enough and even then rarely needed.
Besides, most of my scopes are sub$200 and I wouldn't trust them to stay on zero if I was constantly twisting the elevation knob around.
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You really need resettable turrets if you are a clicker.
-Y
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hold over here, at least for now.
mike
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hold over center x 30 yrs . top duplex closer shots & bottom for longer shots. the only time I fleck is sighting in. or changing pellets.
springer
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How about hold over + click combination?
I can zero scope in a way with a small kill zone, say 0.5 inches, and use the hold over within the range that the reticle would allow. This way I can just aim and shoot within the range determined by the kill zone.
Beyond that, for the likely rare scenario, I can use click to change to a dramatically different zero, close to maximum allowed, to extend the shooting range.
This assumes the gun shoots fast and accurate enough, and the scope is high quality so both zeros are reproducible.
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Hold over. Honestly, because I am too lazy to do the math for clicks. ((chuckle))
Oh... and I simply don't trust the scope to come back to zero, even my better scopes.
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I bought the SWFA and Discovery scopes supposed have good tracking. Have not tested it yet
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Wow, thank you all for chiming in and giving your opinions and practices. 😄
Frankly, I'm very surprised at the general trend — most are hold'er-overs, few are clickers. 🤔
I had at least assumed that the field target crowd and the long range shooters would have been clickers (or maybe they just didn't respond to this post?)....
One reason frequently mentioned why people are not clickers is — they want to keep it simple (same principle why some favor a springer vs. a PCP — "just grab the gun and a can of pellets" type of simple). 😊
Yeah, that can almost be made into a philosphy for living. I don't share that philosophy, but I can see how it is attractive. 👍🏼
🔶 So, that means that most of you would be fine with and even would prefer capped turrets....
Well, that explains whey so many manufacturers have so many models with capped turrets....
🔶 And it explains why there are so many scopes out there where the turrets don't match the reticle (often MOA turrets, with a MIL reticle)....
🔶 It also explains why there is much more talk about features of reticles,[/i] and very little talk about features of turrets (e.g.: turret turn counters, an even 10 mils per turret revolution, instead of an uneven 6 or 4.8mil).
Keep the comments coming! — I'm still trying to figure out what methods I will use or learn to use as my hobby develops...! 😄
Matthias
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Wow, thank you all for chiming in and giving your opinions and practices. 😄
Frankly, I'm very surprised at the general trend — most are hold'er-overs, few are clickers. 🤔
I had at least assumed that the field target crowd and the long range shooters would have been clickers (or maybe they just didn't respond to this post?)....
One reason frequently mentioned why people are not clickers is — they want to keep it simple (same principle why some favor a springer vs. a PCP — "just grab the gun and a can of pellets" type of simple). 😊
Yeah, that can almost be made into a philosphy for living. I don't share that philosophy, but I can see how it is attractive. 👍🏼
🔶 So, that means that most of you would be fine with and even would prefer capped turrets....
Well, that explains whey so many manufacturers have so many models with capped turrets....
🔶 And it explains why there are so many scopes out there where the turrets don't match the reticle (often MOA turrets, with a MIL reticle)....
🔶 It also explains why there is much more talk about features of reticles,[/i] and very little talk about features of turrets (e.g.: turret turn counters, an even 10 mils per turret revolution, instead of an uneven 6 or 4.8mil).
Keep the comments coming! — I'm still trying to figure out what methods I will use or learn to use as my hobby develops...! 😄
Matthias
FYI no clicking or power shifting in HFT.
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I shoot HFT. No clicking there. So i set up the rifle and scope. Record the drop at various distances and have Chairgun print a reticle for me that i stick to the scope.
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It depends on the scope. With my latest the adjustments are solid and repeatable. So I’m experimenting with clicking. Have yet to decide, for me the drawback is forgetting to dial back while pesting. But it is really neat to dial and get the hits without holding over. So I would say I use both, depending on what’s being shot at.
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I shoot HFT. No clicking there. So i set up the rifle and scope. Record the drop at various distances and have Chairgun print a reticle for me that i stick to the scope.
What is your zero? What is your scope?
-Y
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I shoot HFT. No clicking there. So i set up the rifle and scope. Record the drop at various distances and have Chairgun print a reticle for me that i stick to the scope.
What is your zero? What is your scope?
-Y
Many scopes and many rifles. And different magnifications! And sometimes different pellets. The picture is only and example. :D
But in 0.177 at 12 fpe i usually zero around 28 yards/25-26m.