GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Weihrauch Airguns => Topic started by: SpiralGroove on October 09, 2018, 11:14:11 PM
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Hey Guys/Gals,
Does anyone have the experience to know a difference in shot cycle and general manageability between these two fine Beeman break-barrels.
Looking over the vintage R10's, it seems like a nice mini-R1, but it was seemingly discontinued and replaced by the R9. What are the differences aside from build quality, and power, which seem to go hands down to the R10? We also know the R10 was heavier and had a very thin receiver, requiring a screwed-on scope rail. Were these two of the big issues that caused Beeman to replace it with the lighter and cheaper to produce R9?
Any insights would be appreciated ;),
Kirk
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I think R10s had longer barrels than the R9.
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Send WD Feese a PM. We were talking about this the other day, but I don't remember all the details.
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HW purchased BSF in the 80's. HW then started producing Marksman
55, 70, 72, 58, 59 (etc) air rifles that were produced at the BSF factory. The original Air Rifle Headquarters sold BSF air rifles and called them "Wischo Bavaria".
These Marksman air rifles were based on BSF 55, 70 (etc?) air rifles that were early "magnum" powered guns and were partly HW parts, and partly BSF parts.
The R10 (and also the R11) was a direct off shoot of the Marksman guns . Don't forget, there was also a standard R10 with a plain stock in addition to the Deluxe R10. They also made carbines.
The Beeman R10 and Marksman guns used left over BSF pistons that were slotted to clear the fasteners that held on the scope rails.
I have no idea whether HW ever produced additional slotted pistons.
The R9 may have come to pass simply because they ran out of slotted BSF pistons (this is a wild guess on my part!!). The actual reason HW discontinued the R10 and started making R9's may be lost in history. It would be interesting to know.
This info should should be of some assistance should you wish to
Google up more info.
I may not have gotten everything right, and would appreciate any corrections or additions! Some copies of ARH catalog would be great (hint, hint).
There is at least one write up on Pyramyd air's website on BSF guns:
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2008/03/bsf-55n-part-1/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2008/03/bsf-55n-part-1/)
Here is some info on BSF/HW. I stole this on a Google search and do not know who originally wrote it.
B.S.F. "BAYERISCHE SPORTWAFFENFABRIK"
Previous manufacturer located in Erlangen, Germany. Previously imported by Kendell International located in Paris, KY, and by Beeman Precision Arms under the Wischo label. B.S.F. (Bayerische Sportwaffenfabrik) is the manufacturer for airguns marketed with B.S.F., Bavaria, and Wischo trade names. B.S.F. was founded in 1935 and produced a few airguns before the pressures of WWII took over. Production began again in 1948 and put an emphasis on solid, simple construction. The Model S54 remains as a classic example of solid, elegant construction for a sporter air rifle. B.S.F.´s own production was generally sold under the Bavaria label. The Wischo Company of Erlangen (founded by Egon Wilsker), one of Europe´s leading gun distributors, distributed large numbers, especially to Beeman Precision Airguns in the USA, under the Wischo label. The collapse of their British agent, Norman May & Co, in 1980 resulted in the dismissal of most of the 130 workers. The Schütt family sold the business to Herbert Gayer, who reorganized the company and the production process. However, this was not enough to prevent further decline of the company. It was then purchased by the Hermann Weihrauch Company in nearby Mellrichstadt in the late 1980s. By incorporating some HW design and cosmetic features and parts, a surprisingly good line of upper economy level airguns was developed to supplement the top-of-the-line regular HW models. Weihrauch manufactures versions of B.S.F. models for Marksman (Marksman Models 28, 40, 55, 56, 58, 59, 70, 71, 72, and 75).
I hope this helps and hope others have additional info!
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From memory, the R10 was designed to shoot .177-caliber pellets upwards of 1000 fps. To accomplish this, the R10 was given a strong mainspring in a lighter receiver than the R1. Unfortunately, broken mainsprings were too common, and (I read) the gun was unprofitable because it cost a lot to make.
I believe that the R9 was a "de-tuned" variant of the R10 with a lighter spring. It still has the Rekord trigger, but the stock is simpler. It still shoots .177-caliber pellets at about 930 fps.
-Whirly
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as far as I know, the R10 and R9 have the same bore and stroke (don't they)?
They should have equivalent performance and shot cycle potential.
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My R10 Delux goes through springs like they were candy. When I was shooting FT I carried a spare with me. I learned to swap springs using a heavy rag over the endcap to hold it and catch the spring. I learned this trick the hard way. The rag catches the spring and misseling end cap on disassembling and saves your hand when it slips compressing the spring on resembly. I switched to a lighter spring since.
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From memory, the R10 was designed to shoot .177-caliber pellets upwards of 1000 fps. To accomplish this, the R10 was given a strong mainspring in a lighter receiver than the R1. Unfortunately, broken mainsprings were too common, and (I read) the gun was unprofitable because it cost a lot to make.
I believe that the R9 was a "de-tuned" variant of the R10 with a lighter spring. It still has the Rekord trigger, but the stock is simpler. It still shoots .177-caliber pellets at about 930 fps.
-Whirly
Whirly,
How would you compare the functionality of your R10 to HW95?
Which would you rather own?
Kirk
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From memory, the R10 was designed to shoot .177-caliber pellets upwards of 1000 fps. To accomplish this, the R10 was given a strong mainspring in a lighter receiver than the R1. Unfortunately, broken mainsprings were too common, and (I read) the gun was unprofitable because it cost a lot to make.
I believe that the R9 was a "de-tuned" variant of the R10 with a lighter spring. It still has the Rekord trigger, but the stock is simpler. It still shoots .177-caliber pellets at about 930 fps.
-Whirly
Whirly,
How would you compare the functionality of your R10 to HW95?
Which would you rather own?
Kirk
Surprisingly, besides the R10's mainspring breaking within the first 100 shots and the highly unusual necessity of smoothing out the cocking slot and adding a little moly paste, I have an affinity for the older rifle, possibly just because it is older and I've had to wrestle it into shooting condition despite it being a Weirauch gun that was made in Germany. I put a Maccari spring in it and it's held up just fine. The gun shoots at, or a little higher than spec at about 760 fps with a 14.3-grain CPHP, so I have no complaints there.
I bought the HW95, which is mechanically identical to a Beeman R9, and it has been nothing short of perfect in all respects.
So, If I wanted a "perfect" air rifle out of the box, I'd vote for the R9/HW95. However, I also like the R10 because it "pushed the limits" of a light sporter air rifle and because it is not as common as the R9/HW95.
-Whirly
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So, If I wanted a "perfect" air rifle out of the box, I'd vote for the R9/HW95. However, I also like the R10 because it "pushed the limits" of a light sporter air rifle and because it is not as common as the R9/HW95.
-Whirly
I sounds like you don't think the R10 is that "special", and that it's key attributes are little more power and scarcity ........ only?
I had been thinking (if I could find one), the R10 could give me R1 build quality and shoot CPL's at 940 fps or maybe 775 fps in a .20 caliber ............ with a great shot cycle.
Sounds like I was dreaming again :P.
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So, If I wanted a "perfect" air rifle out of the box, I'd vote for the R9/HW95. However, I also like the R10 because it "pushed the limits" of a light sporter air rifle and because it is not as common as the R9/HW95.
-Whirly
I sounds like you don't think the R10 is that "special", and that it's key attributes are little more power and scarcity ........ only?
I had been thinking (if I could find one), the R10 could give me R1 build quality and shoot CPL's at 940 fps or maybe 775 fps in a .20 caliber ............ with a great shot cycle.
Sounds like I was dreaming again :P.
The shot cycle is long in both the R10 and the R9 (and likely the R1).
There's nothing (seriously, nothing) wrong with the R9/HW95.
I went through some tough times with my R10, which probably why I'm so attached to her.
-Whirly
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Jeff M has the info correct to my understanding. The R9 was cheaper to produse than the R10. The Marksman 70 is a pre R10. While I own the Marksman 70, I do not recall shooting a R9 so I can not make comparisons.
The 70 has a thin rail which will not hold a scope. I have to use lock tight or super glue to keep a peep sight in place. Very accurate and smooth. Hope that helps.
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Isn't the HW85 the current version of the R10?
As I understand it, the HW85 is just a HW95 with the longer barrel of the Beeman R1. A longer barreled R9 would cock easier, but may be less accurate due to longer "barrel time".
https://www.krale-schietsport.nl/en/weihrauch-hw85-9309.html (https://www.krale-schietsport.nl/en/weihrauch-hw85-9309.html)
(https://www.krale-schietsport.nl/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/w/e/weihrauch-hw-85.jpg)
https://www.krale-schietsport.nl/en/weihrauch-hw95-9317.html (https://www.krale-schietsport.nl/en/weihrauch-hw95-9317.html)
(https://www.krale-schietsport.nl/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/w/e/weihrauch-hw-95_1.jpg)
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The new version of the HW 85 I have seen and own, are the Hw95, R9 powerplant with the longer barrel. Rear plugged modular rifle. I wanted a dedicated iron sight rifle, and the long sight radius makes me more accurate. I found a root sticking up at the creek out 75 yds, 1" dia and about 4 inches tall, straight up at the waterline. Once doped, I was hitting it every shot until I was bored. More accurate, less accurate?
I broke mine down polished, Vortek moly seal, detent improvement, ARH hornet spring, polished, rear flange and plug improved, and the spring nails on the OEM rear guide. No top hat, as this was an experiment of mine. This so far has been the best set up for dollar I have, shoots slightly softer than the hornet kit, as less spaced, soft landing moly seal, and soooo easy to cock. My favorite grab and go springer.
https://imgur.com/TrQyF4n
https://imgur.com/wG7CNeG
https://imgur.com/rWRFkAw
https://imgur.com/XDA2WmI
https://imgur.com/Oi78Iiq
🎯
Jason G
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Jeff M has the info correct to my understanding. The R9 was cheaper to produse than the R10. The Marksman 70 is a pre R10. While I own the Marksman 70, I do not recall shooting a R9 so I can not make comparisons.
The 70 has a thin rail which will not hold a scope. I have to use lock tight or super glue to keep a peep sight in place. Very accurate and smooth. Hope that helps.
Hello Mr. Feese,
The rail on the R10 and the Marksman's work just fine with scopes, but they would be more versatile if they were longer.
It could be argued that the separate R10 scope rail works better than the machined in R9 dovetails, the thin walled R9 receiver tube has a reputation for distorting if the scope mounting rings are tightened really tight.
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From memory, the R10 was designed to shoot .177-caliber pellets upwards of 1000 fps. To accomplish this, the R10 was given a strong mainspring in a lighter receiver than the R1. Unfortunately, broken mainsprings were too common, and (I read) the gun was unprofitable because it cost a lot to make.
I believe that the R9 was a "de-tuned" variant of the R10 with a lighter spring. It still has the Rekord trigger, but the stock is simpler. It still shoots .177-caliber pellets at about 930 fps.
-Whirly
I had one of the Beeman R10 (Santa Rosa) break barrels and it was, indeed, hard on mainsprings...luckily they were easily replaced and easy to come by. the one I had came with some very visible barrel droop that was very difficult to adjust for. I had a dealer tell me to just leave it alone.
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Hey Subscriber,
I'm a little confused with not being able to find a photo of the HW85 looking like the R10 as Tom Gaylord has suggested in blog circa 9/15/2017. In the article, he states Beeman and Weihrauch had the same deal manufacturing the R10/HW85 as before with the R1/HW80. That would suggest the original HW85 was a very similar copy of the R10.
However, it's possible Weihrauch made the HW85 without the screw-on rear receiver plug from the get go?
All photo's I can find show it being identical to the HW95, except with a longer barrel.
If someone has to answer to this question, I'd love to know it ;).
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No idea, Kirk. The latter-day HW85 would seem as robust as a latter-day R9. So, the earlier spring breakage problem would seem moot; unless you are buying an older used model...
Is this the R10 article you mentioned:
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2017/09/the-beeman-r10hw-85-part-1/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2017/09/the-beeman-r10hw-85-part-1/)
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2017/09/the-beeman-r10hw-85-part-2/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2017/09/the-beeman-r10hw-85-part-2/)
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2017/10/the-beeman-r10hw-85-part-3/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2017/10/the-beeman-r10hw-85-part-3/)
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2017/11/the-beeman-r10hw-85-part-4/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2017/11/the-beeman-r10hw-85-part-4/)
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2017/12/the-beeman-r10hw-85-part-5/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2017/12/the-beeman-r10hw-85-part-5/)
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2018/01/the-beeman-r10hw-85-part-6/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2018/01/the-beeman-r10hw-85-part-6/)
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No idea, Kirk. The latter-day HW85 would seem as robust as a latter-day R9. So, the earlier spring breakage problem would seem moot; unless you are buying an older used model...
Is this the R10 article you mentioned: https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2017/09/the-beeman-r10hw-85-part-1/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2017/09/the-beeman-r10hw-85-part-1/)
Yes, that's the article.
The latter day HW85 is the same gun as the HW95, except with a longer barrel. Maybe the HW85 wasn't manufactured until 1995/1996 like the HW95, and Tom mentions the R10/HW85 in the same breath, thinking readers understood this manufacturing time gap?
Beats the heck out of me ???
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HW has not built a baby R1 {R10} in over 20yrs! the only place ur gonna find 1 is on the used market, the HW85 that replaced the R10 does not have the screw off end cap like the original R10, it is plugged like the R9, as has been mentioned the HW85 is nothing more then a long barreled 95, I had a R10 Deluxe and a 16'' carbine a few yrs back, the R10 did have a little more spacing in the power plant but not enough to make that much of a difference! is it a nicer rifle? well its built better due to the end cap! that's why it was called the baby R1! OC AKA WHITEFANG has my old R10 Deluxe you might ask him what he thinks about them ;) ;D :P
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HW has not built a baby R1 {R10} in over 20yrs! the only place ur gonna find 1 is on the used market, the HW85 that replaced the R10 does not have the screw off end cap like the original R10, it is plugged like the R9, as has been mentioned the HW85 is nothing more then a long barreled 95, I had a R10 Deluxe and a 16'' carbine a few yrs back, the R10 did have a little more spacing in the power plant but not enough to make that much of a difference! is it a nicer rifle? well its built better due to the end cap! that's why it was called the baby R1! OC AKA WHITEFANG has my old R10 Deluxe you might ask him what he thinks about them ;) ;D :P
Hey Mark,
IYO, do you think the R10 is another "unique club to have in ones golf bag" alongside other "current" Weihrauch models or would it be mostly a duplication of an existing club?
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No idea, Kirk. The latter-day HW85 would seem as robust as a latter-day R9. So, the earlier spring breakage problem would seem moot; unless you are buying an older used model...
Is this the R10 article you mentioned: https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2017/09/the-beeman-r10hw-85-part-1/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2017/09/the-beeman-r10hw-85-part-1/)
Yes, that's the article.
The latter day HW85 is the same gun as the HW95, except with a longer barrel. Maybe the HW85 wasn't manufactured until 1995/1996 like the HW95, and Tom mentions the R10/HW85 in the same breath, thinking readers understood this manufacturing time gap?
Beats the heck out of me ???
Forgive me for jumping in here. I'm having a hard time understanding just what the confusion is.
Maybe this will help (or maybe not):
Beeman sold the R10 in 4 different configurations:
1. R10 that was EXACTLY the same as a HW85 except for markings
2. R10 carbine, same as HW85K
3 & 4 R10 Deluxe and R10 Deluxe carbine. These guns were Beeman exclusives with the Gary Goudy stock. HW did not sell any
guns marked HW85 or HW85K with this style stock.
All of these guns came with threaded end caps. The thin walled R10
receiver tube was difficult to machine for these caps and had too high of a rejection rate. This may have been why this rifle was discontinued.
The Marksman guns disassemble differently from the HW's.
They didn't have threaded end caps, or a plug retained by knock out tabs.
The Marksmans came both with and without Rekord triggers. The trigger came out of the back of the receiver as a unit, and was retained by a bolt, and the trigger unit is what retained the mainspring and guide.
IMO, the Marksman guns were easier to disassemble than the HW's.
The safety was resettable and was a lever that extended up beside
the receiver tube.
The higher grade Marksman's (70, 71, 72) had nicer stocks than a standard R10, but not as nice as the Deluxe R10.
Early model Beeman R9's came with R10/HW85 slotted pistons. (I had forgotten about this in my earlier post).
The 1996 Beeman catalog does not list the R10 or R9.
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Hey Jeff, I think I got it.
So the early HW85 was almost identical to the R10 and was introduced in 1986. When the HW95 was introduced in (mid) 1996, Weihrauch changed the HW85 design to be like the HW95 (non-screw receiver plug). Right?
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Hey Jeff, I think I got it.
So the early HW85 was almost identical to the R10 and was introduced in 1986. When the HW95 was introduced in (mid) 1996, Weihrauch changed the HW85 design to be like the HW95 (non-screw receiver plug). Right?
Hello Kirk,
That's correct.
I threw in the info about the Marksman guns and HW/BSF because
if HW had not purchased BSF, there would probably have never been a HW85/R10.
Plus the Marksman and BSF guns sometimes show up on the used market, and it may be useful to know a bit about them.
BTW, like anyone else, some of BB Pelleteer's (forgot his real name) facts are nonsense.
His conclusion that HW model numbers equals the stroke length in MM's is just plain strange. It seems more likely that they correspond to the year that the design of the gun was completed, but that may not be the case 100% of the time.
"See" ya later!
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Kirk IMO the R10 is a baby R1, they are unique for what they are! but I don't think you notice much of a difference between the R10 and R9/HW95 in performance JMO, but if your looking for the uniqueness of the screw off end cap of this offering in this size power plant it like looking at the difference between the HW50 vs the HW35 as far as build quality! IMO if you can buy 1 reasonable I would purchase it over the 95's!!!!! ;D :P
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Hi Kirk, I hope you’re doing well,
I thought I’d put these pics in your thread just for reference.
Top= R1, .22 cal, JM full power kit and bullet seal, carbine threaded barrel with thing on the end...
Middle= R9 .177 cal, heavily played with by me. Vortek kit full power.
Bottom= R10 deluxe .177 never opened.
I bought from a collection said to be never fired and I believe it. I, however, have fired it a few times to verify working condition and flat out curiosity. I can’t really compare it to my R9 because of the vortek kit the R9 has but it felt fantastic to me, especially since it’s factory stock. It just hangs on my wall for sheer elegance...
Higgs
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PM me [F]
R10 .177
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Hi Kirk, I hope you’re doing well,
Bottom= R10 deluxe .177 never opened.
I bought from a collection said to be never fired and I believe it. I, however, have fired it a few times to verify working condition and flat out curiosity. I can’t really compare it to my R9 because of the vortek kit the R9 has but it felt fantastic to me, especially since it’s factory stock. It just hangs on my wall for sheer elegance...
Higgs
Hey Higgy,
You should sell it to me ;D. I'd immortalize or put it on a pedestal too ...
However, tune it and shoot it I will ;).
Kirk
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Hi Kirk, I hope you’re doing well,
Bottom= R10 deluxe .177 never opened.
I bought from a collection said to be never fired and I believe it. I, however, have fired it a few times to verify working condition and flat out curiosity. I can’t really compare it to my R9 because of the vortek kit the R9 has but it felt fantastic to me, especially since it’s factory stock. It just hangs on my wall for sheer elegance...
Higgs
Hey Higgy,
You should sell it to me ;D. I'd immortalize or put it on a pedestal too ...
However, tune it and shoot it I will ;).
Kirk
Haha! I know you would SG! I reached deep for this rifle and a never fired FWB 127 from the same collection. I’ll think about it but I feel like you need one ready for a frame off resto with all the tweaking I know you love to do. That being said, I’d like to see what you could do with it and would love to shoot it after you gave it the full “Spiral Groove treatment”. 8)
Unlike Doritos, they’re not making any more...
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Higgy,
It's a deal 8).
I'll buy it from you, tune it and then ship it back to you to shoot.
I have full confidence, you'll return it after a few hundred shots ..............
Kirk