GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: JungleShooter on October 08, 2018, 03:04:36 AM
-
Frustrated Beginners with Springers Not Hitting the Bulls – 3 THINGS to Consider
Yesterday, a fellow GTA’er shared their frustration of usually getting only 4" groups at 30 yards.
Maybe you know that frustration, too?
I share his pain and frustration about not being able to hit the target more consistently! His 4" groups sound like mine.
Like him, I have not that much experience with spring-powered air rifles.
Like him I have a Hatsan that has given me much frustration. I thought I had learned the artillery hold.
Recently, though, I am getting 1 1/4" groups at 35y. And here’s a few things that got me there. Most of these you probably already knew, and then again, maybe there’s something that will be helpful.
(1) Artillery Hold – Find the Right Variation of the Artillery Hold (A-Hold)
I’ll start with the most surprising discovery of the process: We springer shooters don’t use THE artillery hold – we use A artillery hold.
I realized that when I had read enough gun reviews by Tom Gaylord (aka B.B.Pelletier). Read how the Godfather of Airguns is struggling to get good groups! And read how he tries different things to give you ideas of what you can try.
At the end of the post I copied you some of his test reviews, where he tells it just like it is, just so you get an idea of what I’m talking about. From Tom I get the distinct impression that A-Hold stands not so much for Artillery Hold – but more for Arbitrary Hold....
(2) Let the Gun Choose Its Favorite Pellets
In Tom’s gun reviews you also read about the pellet testing, which pellets a gun likes and which it despises. Just like we each are originals, so no gun is alike, and you just need to try out a bunch of different pellets.
Buying a couple of pellet samplers will get you there cheaper (Straight Shooter has some, the big airgun sellers also).
At GTA we also have a pellet exchange, check out https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=43177.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=43177.0)
(3) Watch for Your Enemy – the Wind
Maybe you are shooting quite well, it just doesn’t show. Because someone’s messing with you!
When looking over the target cards of past sessions I often see a pattern, especially when I had terrible groups. The shots all spread toward one side of the target card. And that most likely came from the invisible force of evil, not so much Darth Vader, but Darth Wind.
The wind is clearly not your friend. Let’s see how much the wind likes to mess you up.
The Hatsan 95 Vortex has a muzzle energy of around 17FPE (https://www.airgundepot.com/hatsan-model-95.html (https://www.airgundepot.com/hatsan-model-95.html)).
The ballistic calculator ChairGun* tells us that an H&N’s FTT pellet will exit the muzzle with about 730fps.
If your enemy the wind blows at only 4 to 5 mph across our shooting line, it blows off the FTT by a whole inch. Now your 2"-group is 3" large, and your 4"-group grows to 5". This kind of messes you up, doesn’t it?
Shoot longer distances and you give the wind more time to mess with your pellet.
Using pellets with a higher BC are better resistant against wind (the FTT has a low BC). For more info see link.**
*ChairGun is great! Distinct mobile and desktop versions: http://www.hawkeoptics.com/chairgun.html (http://www.hawkeoptics.com/chairgun.html)
**BC Table (comprehensive list of pellets with high BCs): https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=149053 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=149053)
After getting tripped up TWICE on the range today – here are 2 more THINGS to consider
(4) You’ve Got to Check Your Screws!
There’s this song,* it’s called You’ve Got to Check Your Screws – and as far as music is concerned I can’t stand it.
* https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=93073.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=93073.0)
But as far as airgunning is concerned, I’m still learning the simple lesson of this song!
I have been very responsible about tightening the 6 screws of my stock every 2 or 3 sessions. So, I thought I was covered. Also my 2 scope screws (those that attach the scope to the gun) I checked for tightness every couple of weeks.
Today at the range I was getting funny groups, and I didn’t have enough wind to blame it on him.
Then at home I was going to change the scope rings, and alas, I didn’t even have to loosen one of the bolts, it was soooo looose! And my scope rings with the adaptor have at least 17 bolts! Well, those want to be checked and tightened, too....!
(5) Don’t Let Your Break Barrel Smash Your Pellets!
When loading any pellet of the selection of 10 pellets I have used in my gun, I always felt like the pellet entered well into the barrel. Today, I used a new pellet, and it felt it did not enter all the way.
After closing the barrel, I opened it back up – and Oooooooh Noooooo! – the pellet skirt was smashed. Well, such a drastic change in shape might be OK to hit a rat at 10y, but not a pigeon at 50y.
Solution: Use a pellet seater,* some kind of little plastic rod to push the pellet into the barrel (always the same distance into the barrel).
Then I opened the barrel back up after loading a different pellet, and I found, it too, was getting smashed buy the break barrel. Very uncool if you are going for accurate shooting....
*Here’s a pellet seater: https://www.pyramydair.com/product/pellet-pen-with-pellet-seater-loads-seats-22-cal-pellets?a=4870 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/pellet-pen-with-pellet-seater-loads-seats-22-cal-pellets?a=4870)
Happy Shooting!
Quotes from Tom Gaylord – which show us the process of trying to figure out just the right A-Hold (Artillery Hold – Arbitrary Hold) for a certain gun – and the right pellet for it
[For the Benjamin Trail NP2]
"By the end of the session, I knew what this rifle wants — a firm hold of the off hand as far out on the forearm as you can comfortably hold and a firm hold of the pistol grip. Pull the butt into your shoulder firmly. This is not a death grip — just a firm hold, and it seems to be what the NP2 wants." "I think it needs a very repeatable offhand grasping pressure." | FROM: < https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2014/07/benjamin-trail-nitro-piston-2-part-6/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2014/07/benjamin-trail-nitro-piston-2-part-6/) >
"The hold: I refined the sight setting and proceeded to test the hold I thought would do best — based on results from the first rifle's test. I also tried several other holds and hand placements, establishing one thing for certain. The NP2 wants to be held firmly. Do not use the artillery hold. Instead, I found it best to slide my off hand out to almost the end of the stock and grip the forearm firmly. I can feel the forearm screw holds on the tips of my thumb and fingers, so I know my hand is in the same place every time. Any hold that wasn't firm allowed pellets to rise vertically. I fired probably 30 shots testing just the different holds and pressures. [...] By the end of the session, I knew what this rifle wants — a firm hold of the off hand as far out on the forearm as you can comfortably hold and a firm hold of the pistol grip. Pull the butt into your shoulder firmly. This is not a death grip — just a firm hold, and it seems to be what the NP2 wants. [...] I'm not through with this rifle, yet. Each one of my second-session groups contains a large cluster of shots that are very close, then some strays that wander off — usually down, but not always. I think I'm close to understanding what this rifle wants, but I'm not there yet. I think it needs a very repeatable offhand grasping pressure. | FROM: < https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2014/07/benjamin-trail-nitro-piston-2-part-6/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2014/07/benjamin-trail-nitro-piston-2-part-6/) >
Again: "Before I continue, let me describe the hold I'm using today. It's not an artillery hold. I'm grasping the pistol grip firmly, but not with a death grip. And my off hand is slid out far enough that it's touching the sling swivel on the forearm. I don't grasp the forearm tightly, but I do grasp it with my fingers. Having my hand out that far, the rifle doesn't want to move left or right. So, when the off hand gets settled, the crosshairs stay on target as I relax. Relaxation is very important with the NP2. Every time I became anxious about where the next shot was going, I threw it wide. But when I relaxed, the shot went to the aim point, as you'll soon see." | FROM: < https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2014/06/benjamin-trail-nitro-piston-2-part-4/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2014/06/benjamin-trail-nitro-piston-2-part-4/) >
[For the RWS-Diana 34P]
"For the second group, I slid my off hand to the middle of the 34P's long cocking slot. This time 10 JSB Exact Jumbo Heavies went into 1.215-inches. Eight shots are in 0.611-inches. That screams accuracy to me. It also suggests that the hold isn't quite right. Notice that the largest sub-group within each of these first two 10-shot groups is similar in size. Is that consistency? I think so." | FROM: < https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2017/06/checking-out-a-diana-rws-34p-part-3/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2017/06/checking-out-a-diana-rws-34p-part-3/) >
"I finally ended up with what I believe is the best hold for this rifle. The rifle lies on the palm of my off hand, which is my left hand. The heel of that hand just touches the front of the triggerguard and my left index finger is in the rear of the very long cocking slot. I can feel when the hold is right this way, so it's easy to hold the rifle the same every time, and that is the key to shooting a recoiling spring-piston air rifle. This is the technique that has to be learned for most recoling spring-piston air rifles, and especially for the Diana 34.
[@25y:] The first group measured 0.993-inches and is vertical. It's well-centered but it seemed as if varying pressure against my shoulder was stringing the shots vertically.
I tried to get the pressure against my shoulder consistent for the next group of JSB Exact Jumbo Heavys. This time 10 went into 1.096-inches. This one is also vertical , but only because of a single shot. I wish I could remember which one it was or how I was holding the rifle, because the other 9 shots are in 0.717-inches! Was I onto something?
Okay, what was I doing right and what was I doing wrong? If the pressure into the shoulder was the secret I would try to perfect it. I still held the rifle on the flat of my hand, touching the triggerguard in back and with my index finger in the cocking slot.
The next 10 shots gave me a very vertical 1.083-inch group. Aww, shucks!
George [who gave Tom the rifle to test], I hope you have noticed that all my groups are about the same size with no spurious fliers — fliers that land inches away. Your rifle is accurate, but I still wasn't doing something right. After this test was finished I re-read the last test with open sights, where I see the same sort of groups. But I hadn't done that at this point.
Okay, this wasn't working out. I was shooting good groups; they were just not great. I shot better with open sights than I'm shooting with a scope. The problem was, I was trying too hard. When it's this hard to shoot well you are either doing something wrong or else something other than you isn't right.
I shot one final group pf JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy pellets. Remember — I was shooting this pellet at the suggestion of a reader. They aren't the pellet I would have selected, but in the open sight test they seemed to work.
Last group. Okay, this one was working. Less pressure into the shoulder and the same off hand placement. The first 8 shots grouped very well, then shot 9 dropped low and blew the group open. Ten pellets are in 1.366-inches, with 9 of them in 0.856. That's frustrating!
I tried Air Arms Diabolo Field pellets simply because I had a tin on the shooting table. But after 5 shots and two different holds I knew these were not the pellet. They were hitting the target several inches apart.
The last pellet I tried was the RWS Superdome. This is the pellet I would have selected to test a Diana 34 on my own. And, they turned out to be the right ones!
I continued to hold my off hand where it was, but this time no special shoulder pressure was needed. I also didn't waste any time settling in to shoot each pellet. These 10 were shots 76 through 85 in today's test and I was tired from all the concentration. But this time the pellets acted like they were guided by a laser. Ten went into a group that measures 0.70-inches between centers. Not only that, this group is round. This is the pellet George's Diana likes and I wouldn't try any other!
I did not adjust the scope for this pellet, so it hit the target about 2+ inches above the aim point, and in excellent alignment, left and right. I can always drop the scope's reticle!"
The owner of the gun who asked Tom Gaylord to check it, wrote (before the end of the check) geo791, 13Jun17:] "Yes, the RWS 34P does surprise me occasionally with a 1" or less group but that's the exception rather than the rule. I thought at one point that I had discovered the best of the best pellet for my rifle which was the JSB 15.89gr. I shot a (10) shot group at .52" and another at 1.01". I was happy but then a few days later I shot some more groups with one group .45" and another in the same session at 2.10". The JSB 14.35gr showed a lot of promise too. In one session shooting (5) groups, I shot a .31" group with one large hole. Then in the same session the group opened up to 1.32". The groups are so sporadic that I am totally baffled. – After several years of hit and miss, I don't think I have the patience any longer to learn the techniques of shooting break-barrel springers accurately either. Depending on the results B.B. gets, I am leaning more and more to the dark side of a PCP so I can just load, shoot, and be able to call my shots. It has been a real learning experience thus far. I wish I knew then what I know now."
[For the Gamo Wisper Fusion]
"Accuracy test: [...] This time, I have more to say, and it isn't just about the groups — except how they helped my understand the rifle in a diagnostic way. [...]
[JSB RS:] As I shot these pellets, I saw a strange phenomenon unfold. The first 3 shots were out of the bull at 5 o'clock. Then, I relaxed very consciously and allowed the rifle to float on my off hand. The next several shots went into the black. On shot 8, I didn't relax like I should have, and I threw 1 more shot out of the bull at 5 o'clock with the first 3. How interesting! It was so interesting, in fact, that I shot a 14-shot group, so that 10 of the shots could be fired with me being very relaxed. When you look at where they landed, you can see that the hold was all-important to where this rifle grouped. This group is very large — measuring 2.574 inches between centers. But it was a learning experience for me because it demonstrated very clearly that the hold dictates where the pellets will land. Now that I knew something about how the rifle performed, I figured I could do a lot better. And the very next group confirmed that.
[Baracuda:] The first Baracuda Match landed at 11 o'clock, just outside the bull. Shot No. 2 hit at 8 o'clock outside the bull. I was obviously holding the rifle too tight, so I made a conscious effort to hold it looser and shots 3 through 7 hit inside the black. Then, I tensed up again, sending shot No. 8 into the same hole as shot 2. The final 2 shots were fired with complete relaxation, and I had a respectable group inside the bull to the left of center. This time, there were only 3 shots that missed the main group, and all of them were fired with some tension in the hold. When I relaxed, I was able to put 7 shots into 0.789 inches. I think this represents the true accuracy potential of the rifle. Total group measures 1.995 inches.
Altering the hold. Now that I understood the rifle better, I decided to move my open palm out farther so I could feel the cocking slot. Sometimes, resting the rifle this far forward is better. It certainly makes it more stable. This time, however, there was no improvement. The group opened up, and I could see no way of controlling where the shots went. The total group measures 1.754 inches between centers, which is tighter than the previous group overall; but there's no tighter group within this group that tells me the rifle wanted to do any better. Although this is a smaller group, I think the previous group that was shot with the off hand touching the triggerguard shows more promise. So, I went back to the other hold for the next group.
[Crosman Premier:] I now knew the best hold for the rifle, so all I had to do was hold it as loosely as possible and let the pellets do the rest. Nine of the 10 pellets went into a nice group measuring 0.845 inches between centers. It was the first shot that opened it up to 1.596 inches. Ten Crosman Premier Lites went into 1.596 inches at 25 yards, but 9 of them made a 0.845-inch group. I think the smaller group is representative of the true accuracy of the rifle with this pellet.
Final results. I find it interesting that the early shots were always thrown wide of the main group. By the time I arrived at the third pellet, I managed to keep the wide shots to 1 in 10. That tells me something. It tells me that the Gamo Whisper Fusion IGT is a rifle that has to be learned. Once you've done so, I believe that your groups will be about the same size as the smaller groups seen here. I'm going to say something that may surprise some of you. I really like this air rifle a lot. I think it is too light and the trigger takes some getting used to, but in the end this is a great budget air rifle. It really isn't that fussy, once you learn how to hold it the right way." | FROM: < https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2013/06/gamo-whisper-fusion-igt-breakbarrel-air-rifle-part-4/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2013/06/gamo-whisper-fusion-igt-breakbarrel-air-rifle-part-4/) >
-
I agree with your top 3 and very happy you listed wind as one of them. Wind is a huge problem and nobody brings it up much when people have problems (springers or PCP). I would add a number 4. Number 4 would be there are a lot of crappy spring rifles on the market today that will never shoot well.
-
I'm lucky so far...all my "Low end" Gamos and Crosmans are shooting great. I had a few that quite group well....but experimenting with different pellets solved that. Some don't need their barrel cleaned even after several thousand shots....one needs its barrel cleaned after 400+ shots. Had one Crosman that gave a shotgun pattern after a year or so...turns out the barrel pivot bolt was loose. Took it out and cleaned out the huge amount of grease, and reapplied at points that actually needed it...tightened and Loc-Tite it and it have been accurate since then.
-
I will add number 5 - It is NOT a powder burner!!! One MUST learn to shoot a springer. It IS different than a powder burner!!! Most important - TRIGGER TIME!!! Lots and lots of trigger time!! Your groups WILL get better, don't give up!!
-
I agree with your top 3 and very happy you listed wind as one of them. Wind is a huge problem and nobody brings it up much when people have problems (springers or PCP). I would add a number 4. Number 4 would be there are a lot of crappy spring rifles on the market today that will never shoot well.
"crappy spring rifles on the market today that will never shoot well"
So true, however I have to mention that "shoot well" is a relative term depending on the expectations of the shooter.
For example, if I can shoot a 1/2"ish 5 shot group at 30 yards sitting on a bucket resting the gun on cross sticks I'm satisfied with the accuracy of my springers..........
(https://i.imgur.com/eIKiookl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/8SZm6IEl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/v6Ug0yHl.jpg)
Years ago I thought that perhaps I could make a cheap springer into a "shooter" with some home tuning so I bought a .177 Crosman Quest (a Chinese Gamo 220 clone complete with junky scope) and was rather disappointed with the 1 1/2" ctc groups I got a 30 yards with the most accurate pellet (a JSB Exact). I did a lot of work on that springer including adding a trigger insert and was able to reduce the group size to a still unacceptable 1" ctc at 30 yards, LOL...using a better scope.
Next I bought a "fer real" .177 Gamo 440 and after a lot of internal mods and a trigger insert I was shooting unacceptable 1" ctc groups at 30 yards, however the "owners manual" stated that I should expect 1/4" 30 yard groups. LOL....I literally "land filled" those two springers and swore off "cheap springers" till a couple years ago when I bought a .177 Remington Express springer and I had a similar experience.......
target at only 18 yards............
(https://i.imgur.com/6DByrZfl.jpg)
Here are a few groups using CPL, JSB Exact & Winchester pellets, again 18 Yards...........
(https://i.imgur.com/4nbLUGjl.jpg)
The surprising "cheap gun groups" were shot with a Cummins Truckload Sale Chinese B3 that cost $19.95, so cheap that I bought two to swap out the better parts into one gun. The bores were rough as a corn cob, the metal work looke dlike "hammer and file" craftsmanship, however after some internal work (clean up piston, making an oring sealed piston cap, removing sharp edges, etc) I had a pretty good shooter.......
With irons at 25 yards........
(https://i.imgur.com/5DINChKl.jpg)
With scope at 25 yards.......
(https://i.imgur.com/PEzo26cl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/4HBPzQkl.jpg)
-
No doubt that some cheap guns can shoot well. I have shot a bunch of them here at our airgun range trying to help people. I have many different pellets and try them in many different cheap rifles with the hopes I find the magic pellet. What I have found is that about 1 out of 10 cheap rifles shoots really well. The rest are just &^^&. Of course I am just shooting these rifles trying to help frustrated owners. I am not taking them apart and trying to improve things. What I have found though when I hand these same people, who are at the wits end with their box store rifle, a HW, RWS, or AA to try the problems go away and you can see their excitement. Good rifles just shoot good. Bad rifles just shoot bad. Both still have the piston learning curve but it's much steeper with junk. That's not to say you can't work on a bad rifle and make it better and no doubt there is some fun and satisfaction in that.
-
I think here in the US the super size me mind set has made a impact on the US when it comes to learning the springer. Just like in any sport you dont start out with the most power you can. Like road racing, you want to really want to learn how to be fast on a road corse. You start with a much much tamer car. Something you can learn the basics and learn to be smooth before you get into a real race car that can smoke the tires in every corner you come to. I have been shooing my whole life, this did not prepare me to shoot a springer. I thought oh this is just a pellet gun I been shooting my whole life. But This is a deffrent discipline, I should gotten me a nice little sports car tell I got smooth through the corners. Something like a HW30....
-
A personal story here....and it explains how I came to be an air rifle shooter.(some already know...)
About 8-10 years ago, I had a purple martin colony, and it was essentially destroyed by predators. At the time I was a novice, and didn't know much about martins or colony management. After I lost that colony that I had waited sooooo long to establish, I decided to become proactive and learn what I needed to know.
I joined an online forum for martin colony people, and soon learned about pests (sparrows and starlings). I have never been a hunter, never learned to shoot anyting besides my .38 snub-nose revolver, and really didn't think I had what it took to shoot them.
The former hubs was not an airgun shooter at all, but shot pb's his entire life, and by this time, was in his late 50's. I tried to get him to shoot starlings and sparrows with an air rifle (because it's too risky with a .22 pb, in spite of my acreage) and told him that if he would, I would buy him the rifle myself....whichever one he wanted. Well, he asked around and looked online, and decided that one of the Beeman guns would probably be the best choice, based on most reviews, so I ordered an R9 for him. It arrived a few days later, and he sat down with it and tried shooting. The only air guns he had experience with were his childhood days bb guns, so a nice springer was completely foreign territory to him.Well, he became very frustrated (remember, neither of us knew anything about air rifles), and after a couple of weeks, sold the gun and said essentially, screwit. So much for that idea....right?
Eventually, I got tired enough of dealing with the starlings and sparrows to try it myself. I went to WM and bought a Crosman Airmaster77 and sat down at the bench with it. I played with it, and I shot it, and I practiced and practiced and practiced....and eventually wound up HERE....looking for information and advice on the best gun for me to buy for pesting. After I finally ended up with the FWB and had it tuned, it was time to really learn the art of shooting springers. It took time and practice, and time and practice, and practice.....and at first, the groups just were not impressive, but still much better than they had been with the Gamo model I'd shot.Then.....after ample time and ample practice, I noticed that the groups were tightening, and that I could often hit a 1" spinner target about 9 times out of 10, and I made my targets smaller and smaller, and then I realized it had happened.....I had learned to shoot a springer. Not perfectly by any means, but good enough to know that I could have a reasonable expectation of hitting my target accurately enough to accomplish what I had set out to do. The hubs never understood what I saw in shooting air rifles. They were always just a toy in his mind, and although he was probably technically an expert marksman with just about any rifle he ever shot, the air rifle remained an elusive craft, never mastered, to him.
So.......basically, learn the basics, refine the technique, and put in the time.
-
A personal story here....and it explains how I came to be an air rifle shooter.(some already know...)
About 8-10 years ago, [...]
Lizzie, thank you for sharing your personal story. Cool! :D
-
You're welcome, Matthias!
:D
-
Are you a frustrated airgunner with springers missing the bulls? -- 2 more things THINGS to Consider.
After getting tripped up TWICE on the range today – here's where I messed up.
(4) You’ve Got to Check Your Screws!
There’s this song,* it’s called You’ve Got to Check Your Screws – and as far as music is concerned I can’t stand it.
* https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=93073.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=93073.0)
But as far as airgunning is concerned, I’m still learning the simple lesson of this song!
I have been very responsible about tightening the 6 screws of my stock every 2 or 3 sessions. So, I thought I was covered. Also my 2 scope screws (those that attach the scope to the gun) I checked for tightness every couple of weeks.
Today at the range I was getting funny groups, and I didn’t have enough wind to blame it on him.
Then at home I was going to change the scope rings, and alas, I didn’t even have to loosen one of the bolts, it was soooo looose! And my scope rings with the adaptor have at least 17 bolts! Well, those want to be checked and tightened, too....!
(5) Don’t Let Your Break Barrel Smash Your Pellets!
When loading any pellet of the selection of 10 pellets I have used in my gun, I always felt like the pellet entered well into the barrel. Today, I used a new pellet, and it felt it did not enter all the way.
After closing the barrel, I opened it back up – and Oooooooh Noooooo! – the pellet skirt was smashed. Well, such a drastic change in shape might be OK to hit a rat at 10y, but not a pigeon at 50y.
Solution: Use a pellet seater,* some kind of little plastic rod to push the pellet into the barrel (always the same distance into the barrel).
After that, I tried a different pellet, and I found, it too, was getting smashed buy the break barrel. Very uncool if you are going for accurate shooting....
*Here’s a pellet seater: https://www.pyramydair.com/product/pellet-pen-with-pellet-seater-loads-seats-22-cal-pellets?a=4870 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/pellet-pen-with-pellet-seater-loads-seats-22-cal-pellets?a=4870)
OK, hope this helps your frustration.