GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Vintage Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: 45flint on October 02, 2018, 10:24:58 AM
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I have to assume you collect what you know and shoot in your youth. But in the last several years of collecting, I have found early springers to be some of the best and most collectable rifles. For the last several days I have been taking my new to me Webley Mark 3 out to the backyard. Machined, blued piece of art, that functions as good as it looks. Makes me want to focus my collection around similar guns. Below is a pic of the Webley on the left and my two other early springers in the collection so far. Cool thing is with these early guns they have leather seals that are so durable, never had to work on any of these, shoot like new, even though they average 60 years old.
(https://i.imgur.com/JcLqV7q.jpg)
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Very nice Steve.
I would venture to guess more of the inmates vintage airgun collectors on GTA are Americans and Springers just weren't as available or as popular to us back then.
Now in Europe / Great Brittan, I bet the numbers would surely swing the other way.
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Cool thing is with these early guns they have leather seals that are so durable, never had to work on any of these, shoot like new, even though they average 60 years old.
Very nice collection. They're beautiful air rifles. I like old spring piston air rifles too but old pumpers are much easier to find in the USA. The spring piston rifles didn't begin to catch on in the USA until the 1980's or so. Everyone my age or older most likely started off with a Crosman, Benjy or if your were lucky a 'Dan. I didn't hear about springers until I was in my thirties.
I find it remarkable that your leather sealed air rifles are still using the original seals. I have one leather piston seal springer; a 1981 RWS Diana Model 45. I'm the owner since 1987. I thought it was shooting great until I bought a chronograph. That's when I found out it had lost over 200 fps. I tried every lube and trick recommended and even though the leather seal looked and felt like new it was losing pressure.
That's when I installed an o-ring piston head. What an improvement! It gained back all the velocity and then some. RWS claimed 810 fps in the catalog. It now shoots medium weight pellets at 840 fps. Back then any air rifle that could shoot over 800 fps was considered a magnum.
Jon
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I think if some of the folks looking for their first springer would opt for one of the 'classics' (e.g older Walther, Hy-Score, BSA, BSF, Haenel, Hämmerli) they'd be highly pleased - as Steve often points out, wood and steel guns with modest power and great craftsmanship bring a lot of enjoyment. These don't have to be expensive and often show up at any of the airgun shows. Yes, they may not have scope rails and muzzle brakes or put out 14 ft-lb but the fun is there.
JMHO,
Don R.
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Love my old springers, but posting on them here doesn’t get much response.
I get kinda’ bored reading the same, recycled Benjy/Sheridan posts here. Good guns, small question, but there were other manufacturers...
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I think if some of the folks looking for their first springer would opt for one of the 'classics' (e.g older Walther, Hy-Score, BSA, BSF, Haenel, Hämmerli) they'd be highly pleased - as Steve often points out, wood and steel guns with modest power and great craftsmanship bring a lot of enjoyment. These don't have to be expensive and often show up at any of the airgun shows. Yes, they may not have scope rails and muzzle brakes or put out 14 ft-lb but the fun is there.
JMHO,
Don R.
Bingo! Especially if the gun is intended for younger shooters. One of my gripes is when a guy brings his kid to an airgun show, where there are numerous smaller, accurate vintage guns laying on the tables, and then gravitates to some heavy magnum that the kid can barely hold up. Geez, get him something that he can have some success with! Plenty of time later for the magmuns. Learn to shoot first.
Agree with comments of others. Other than a few brought home by servicemen based overseas, springers just weren’t widely available until the 1970’/80’s.
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Cool thing is with these early guns they have leather seals that are so durable, never had to work on any of these, shoot like new, even though they average 60 years old.
Very nice collection. They're beautiful air rifles. I like old spring piston air rifles too but old pumpers are much easier to find in the USA. The spring piston rifles didn't begin to catch on in the USA until the 1980's or so. Everyone my age or older most likely started off with a Crosman, Benjy or if your were lucky a 'Dan. I didn't hear about springers until I was in my thirties.
I find it remarkable that your leather sealed air rifles are still using the original seals. I have one leather piston seal springer; a 1981 RWS Diana Model 45. I'm the owner since 1987. I thought it was shooting great until I bought a chronograph. That's when I found out it had lost over 200 fps. I tried every lube and trick recommended and even though the leather seal looked and felt like new it was losing pressure.
That's when I installed an o-ring piston head. What an improvement! It gained back all the velocity and then some. RWS claimed 810 fps in the catalog. It now shoots medium weight pellets at 840 fps. Back then any air rifle that could shoot over 800 fps was considered a magnum.
Jon
I’m sure the reason my seals are still good is I tend to buy guns that aren’t used much. Leather can wear out with use but in my experience they hold up well to age? I know myself and I have a tendency to love the last gun I bought? Lol. But these moderately powered springers are great as you grow older and or are a backyard shooter. Guilty on all counts. I have a Beeman R-1 I rarely use now.
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Springers aren't generally my thing, but I can't deny that those 3 rifles there sure are some real Lookers with a very apparent high level of manufacturing standards.
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Very nice looking rifles there.
Vintage co2 pistols are my normal area of interest.
But since you brought it up.
I recently picked up a 1979 Webley Tempest spring pistol, made in the UK.
Raining today, so played with the Tempest inside.
10 meters, 2 hands, Crosman 7.4gr competition wadcutters.
1 inch dots.
(http://i67.tinypic.com/2whf4op.jpg)
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Very nice looking rifles there.
Vintage co2 pistols are my normal area of interest.
But since you brought it up.
I recently picked up a 1979 Webley Tempest spring pistol, made in the UK.
Raining today, so played with the Tempest inside.
10 meters, 2 hands, Crosman 7.4gr competition wadcutters.
1 inch dots.
(http://i67.tinypic.com/2whf4op.jpg)
Looks good don’t get me started on Webley pistols I bury you with pictures! Lol
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My youth sized springer is probably from the 80's. I had read the Beeman catalogues, but felt I could not quite afford one of his springers. Then on a cargo mission to Yokota Air Base in Japan in 89, a friend took me to the Base Sportsman Club. There I found my Indian S-450 springer. I bought for $30 and shot it as my primary airgun until Christmas of 2012, when I finally upgraded to a new HW 50S.
I replaced the leather seal several years ago, but these days I suspect the spring is sprung out. FPS is down, but it still shoots. Sorry my pictures are not cooperating tonight, maybe later.
Steve
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I have always wanted a tempest and a hurricane since I first saw one back in the early 80’s.
This is my first one.
Not my first springer, but first of the webley design.
Had to learn the right hold for it.
A lot like shooting bullseye with a 1911.
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Very nice Steve.
I would venture to guess more of the inmates vintage airgun collectors on GTA are Americans and Springers just weren't as available or as popular to us back then.
Now in Europe / Great Brittan, I bet the numbers would surely swing the other way.
What’s weird is, when I was the age to first get seriously interested in airguns - the 60’s and 70’s - springers actually WERE quite available. The US was experiencing its first golden age of European airguns, courtesy of Robert Law and his Air Rifle Headquarters in West Virginia. The man imported and sold thousands of awesome Dianas, HW’s, FWB’s, Walther, Anschutzes, Webleys, and others, along with a world of top-quality ammo and accessories; all sold at fair prices and backed up with legendary customer service.
Andt somehow I totally escaped hearing about them!
It really says a lot about the modern changes in how information travels I guess. I grew up in a small town, no big sporting goods stores that might have had a European springer on the rack. Contact with the outside world came through magazine ads, sporting goods catalogs, and the like. I simply never heard of ARH until after Beeman had just about killed them off in the early 80’s.
I did have a Benjy 347 then and loved it...but gracious, if I’d seen an ARH catalog, or held something like a Webley Senior or Diana 27 in my hands, I reckon I woulda died of sheer ecstasy! So now of course, I mostly look for exactly the sort of stuff that you see in the old ARH catalogs...!
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Very nice Steve.
I would venture to guess more of the inmates vintage airgun collectors on GTA are Americans and Springers just weren't as available or as popular to us back then.
Now in Europe / Great Brittan, I bet the numbers would surely swing the other way.
What’s weird is, when I was the age to first get seriously interested in airguns - the 60’s and 70’s - springers actually WERE quite available. The US was experiencing its first golden age of European airguns, courtesy of Robert Law and his Air Rifle Headquarters in West Virginia. The man imported and sold thousands of awesome Dianas, HW’s, FWB’s, Walther, Anschutzes, Webleys, and others, along with a world of top-quality ammo and accessories, and with total top-flight service and fair prices.
But somehow I totally escaped hearing about them! It really says a lot about the modern changes in how information travels I guess. I grew up in a small town, no big sporting goods stores that might have had a German springer on the rack, and contact with the outside world came through magazine ads, sporting goods catalogs, and the like. I simply never heard of ARH until after Beeman had just about killed them off in the early 80’s.
Now I did have a Benjy 347 and loved it...but gracious, if I’d seen an ARH catalog, or held something like a Webley Senior or Diana 27 in my hands, I reckon I woulda died of sheer ecstasy! So now of course, I mostly look for exactly the sort of stuff that you see in the old ARH catalogs...!
I’m going through the better late than never.
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The lack of love is fine by me, I have been able to buy some very nice vintage springers for bargain prices ;).
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I absolutely LOVE my vintage German springers, and especially the ones with leather seals. When I need to have work done, I will try to find a tuner who will do old- school type work. I don't want the newest and most technologically advanced. I want them to shoot as they are built to.
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The post about springers in the US and folks liking the kind of guns they grew up with reminds me about something.
Whenever the subject of airguns comes up around my dad and uncle they always remember the break barrel their oldest brother got for his birthday as a teenager back in the mid-late 70's.
They're always recalling how powerful and accurate it was, and how they'd never seen anything like it before.
I guess his first airgun having been a springer would explain why the first he bought as an adult was a Ruger airhawk.
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Simply never seen or shot a springer until around 2008? My dads Gamo 800 or something. I was surprised by how accurate it was.
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Simply never seen or shot a springer until around 2008? My dads Gamo 800 or something. I was surprised by how accurate it was.
It was '06 for me, it was the Airhawk my uncle had just bought and I was impressed with how I could not cock it and how it had more recoil than his .22
It also had this nice big scope that I was impressed with compared to the tiney 4x15 on my 66 powermaster.
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I grew up in the 50's & 60's & don't remember seeing a " Twanger " back then. Daisy was the standard, with Crosman/Benji's/Sheridans available for the more serious air rifle shooter. I have owned Sheridans since the 1950's, hence my username. Probably the first springer I ever tried was a cheap Chinese import. I was not impressed at all ! Just in the last few years have I fired & owned some spring rifles. I do like the quality of old , well made springers , much better than MOST newer ones, which seem to be focused on maximum fps more than anything else.
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Got my first BB gun at 7. Carried a Crosman 140 as a teen. For 20 some years my only air gun was an RWS Diana 34, bought new in '92 or so. When I got back into air guns, I was drawn to the American pump and CO2 guns. Sold my old Diana, was not using it anymore. I never handled a fine quality springer, so they don't do so much for me.
The rear end cap on The BSA was the inspiration for the design on the Streak, I'll betcha.
Saw a Scottish Daisy at a show last weekend, a break Barrel. It was 25 bucks, should I have got it?
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Got my first BB gun at 7. Carried a Crosman 140 as a teen. For 20 some years my only air gun was an RWS Diana 34, bought new in '92 or so. When I got back into air guns, I was drawn to the American pump and CO2 guns. Sold my old Diana, was not using it anymore. I never handled a fine quality springer, so they don't do so much for me.
The rear end cap on The BSA was the inspiration for the design on the Streak, I'll betcha.
Saw a Scottish Daisy at a show last weekend, a break Barrel. It was 25 bucks, should I have got it?
Yes, if it was in halfway decent condition. I had one in .22 for quite awhile, but recently sold it to a fellow member.
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Very nice collection Steve, beautiful stock. I have been looking around for nice old guns when going garage sale but found none so far. What other venues to find nice old air rifles?
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I've found a few at gun shows, estate sales, antique/second-hand stores. Done quite well on gunbroker.
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I've found a few at gun shows, estate sales, antique/second-hand stores. Done quite well on gunbroker.
Pawn shops I guess. Maybe people just give their old stock to them
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Love my old springers, but posting on them here doesn’t get much response.
I get kinda’ bored reading the same, recycled Benjy/Sheridan posts here. Good guns, small question, but there were other manufacturers...
If MORE people posted their old twangers, in this gate, there would, undoubtedly, be more responses. Most of the vintage springer posts are usually in the European gate. Just sayin'.
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Very nice collection Steve, beautiful stock. I have been looking around for nice old guns when going garage sale but found none so far. What other venues to find nice old air rifles?
Finding vintage springers can be very tuff. Two of the ones in the pic were bought at airgun shows on OldAirs table. The other BSA Airsporter was a great find on Gunbroker. Like said above few dealers imported them as they tended to be higher ticket items and little marketing. At gunshows it’s an event to see a quality older springer. (Pre 1960s). I have never found bargains but I’m after pretty prestine guns, that’s just me. That said the prices do compare to some of the in the boxed prestine pumpers? I’m almost always in the $300’s, but they are always in excellent condition shooting as new.
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I think in the US the gateway to appreciating fine vintage springers is almost always closed by experiences with the hyper strung current Chinese or “Walmart” guns. Nothing wrong with these guns for what they are but that’s what we see and experience. My first airgun I bought back in the 1980s was a Beeman R-1. Massive gun with quite a kick and was the start of “let’s see how powerful we can make them”. Never shot the R-1 that much but as I retire I started to collect prewar blued milled Air pistols. Loved the quality. That lead to my first vintage spring BSA rifle, totally different from the R-1, just sweet to shoot and so well made. Got hooked. You can’t apprecite what you never held in your hands? That true of every new gun I pick up. The Webley Mark 3 just looked a little odd till I experienced it. Fun part of collecting new experiences.
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I think the airgun market is pretty small, as can be seen from local craigslist ads going on forever without a sale. So the vintage market is even smaller.
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Geez, you guys have my ancient memory banks firing away.
I can recall the first springer I ever saw, maybe 1960-ish? One of the kids in our neighborhood had it, and he took a few of us other kids out in the hills behind the house to show it off. I don't recall the make or model or where he got it or really anything about it other than it took .177 pellets.
So the kid hands it to me to try out, I break the barrel, load a pellet, then close the barrel. Then break the barrel again in order to pump it up, as was required in every other air gun I had seen to that point. Doh!!! They all got a good laugh at my expense.
Can't say that I wanted one, and even if I did, wouldn't know where to get one. Wasn't until the 1980's that I owned a springer myself.
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I have smacked the barrel on a Pumper to "break it open" more than once. ::)
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If MORE people posted their old twangers, in this gate, there would, undoubtedly, be more responses. Most of the vintage springer posts are usually in the European gate. Just sayin'.
Agreed! For example, last week there was a very interesting thread on an old ARH-imported HW 30 on the German gate, that really should have been here. Oh well, think of it as an excuse to do more looking around on this site, nothing wrong with that, LOL...
;D
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I'm also like some here that didn't know about any Springer until the early to mid 80's. I only heard of one a man down the street had then but never seen one until the mid 90's and did not get the chance to see It shoot,only was told of how good It was.l purchased one a couple of years ago at the local flea market for 10.00 bucks to find out It was a cheap china pellet gun but I will say compared to the old Grossman that I had for years It did pretty good. I was lucky enough to have found a few Benjamin's and now my Intrest has been revived to get back Into air rifles. I am not so much leaning to spring or pump as long as the gun does a good job. I do hope to purchase a large cal PcP In the near future and would gladly purchase a better Springer If the occasion arises.
I will say that I am more partial to the older virgins because of the quality of the workmanship that went Into most of them.
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I think in the US the gateway to appreciating fine vintage springers is almost always closed by experiences with the hyper strung current Chinese or “Walmart” guns. Nothing wrong with these guns for what they are but that’s what we see and experience. My first airgun I bought back in the 1980s was a Beeman R-1. Massive gun with quite a kick and was the start of “let’s see how powerful we can make them”. Never shot the R-1 that much but as I retire I started to collect prewar blued milled Air pistols. Loved the quality. That lead to my first vintage spring BSA rifle, totally different from the R-1, just sweet to shoot and so well made. Got hooked. You can’t apprecite what you never held in your hands? That true of every new gun I pick up. The Webley Mark 3 just looked a little odd till I experienced it. Fun part of collecting new experiences.
I bought my first R1 about a year and a half ago. I was shocked at how accurate it is, especially in light of the size and "power". It's really a little too big for me, but it's currently my favorite pesting gun for Starlings and house sparrows.
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While owning a few, simply don't shoot them because the PCP's out perform them at EVERY turn !!!
A Diana 75, Pair of HW-35's, FWB 124, Webley tempest as well a pair of sheridan's have become safe queens.
While having no need or want in selling them ... after 40 or so years OF SHOOTING them my love and fascination / challenging myself to shoot them well has expired.
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I love vintage and although I don’t have a springer I do have my Crosman 101 pump.
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While owning a few, simply don't shoot them because the PCP's out perform them at EVERY turn !!!
A Diana 75, Pair of HW-35's, FWB 124, Webley tempest as well a pair of sheridan's have become safe queens.
While having no need or want in selling them ... after 40 or so years OF SHOOTING them my love and fascination / challenging myself to shoot them well has expired.
There no question for the shooter the modern PCP is superior. But often vintage guns aren’t about winning a shooting contest it’s about appreciating a different time and place. Especially the craftsmanship and ingenuity of a time gone by. There’s shooting at its highest precision and there’s collecting and appreciating fine machinery for what it is. It’s all good.
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I think in the US the gateway to appreciating fine vintage springers is almost always closed by experiences with the hyper strung current Chinese or “Walmart” guns. Nothing wrong with these guns for what they are but that’s what we see and experience. My first airgun I bought back in the 1980s was a Beeman R-1. Massive gun with quite a kick and was the start of “let’s see how powerful we can make them”. Never shot the R-1 that much but as I retire I started to collect prewar blued milled Air pistols. Loved the quality. That lead to my first vintage spring BSA rifle, totally different from the R-1, just sweet to shoot and so well made. Got hooked. You can’t apprecite what you never held in your hands? That true of every new gun I pick up. The Webley Mark 3 just looked a little odd till I experienced it. Fun part of collecting new experiences.
I bought my first R1 about a year and a half ago. I was shocked at how accurate it is, especially in light of the size and "power". It's really a little too big for me, but it's currently my favorite pesting gun for Starlings and house sparrows.
HW/WEIHRAUCH never made a bad gun. If I were pesting I’d be getting the R-1 out of the case for sure.
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There no question for the shooter the modern PCP is superior. But often vintage guns aren’t about winning a shooting contest it’s about appreciating a different time and place. Especially the craftsmanship and ingenuity of a time gone by. There’s shooting at its highest precision and there’s collecting and appreciating fine machinery for what it is. It’s all good.
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When I really got into airguns a few years ago, one of my first purchases was a Benjamin Discovery. Very nice gun, I shot it quite a bit. Then I found a Crosman 160 at a gun show and my vintage collecting was off and running. I haven't shot my Discovery in two years or more.
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Ya'll might be surprised what will turn up if you post a "WTB" in the GTA classified gate.
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I have a lot of old Beeman catalogs that lead me to dream about that first German springer . I wanted a FWB 124 deluxe (got it ) and a 300 running boar ( still looking) . Is 38 years old vintage ? My 124 is a 1981 . I customized it some
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Yes, if it is that pretty, and although not too old, it's welcome in the Vintage forum
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I have a lot of old Beeman catalogs that lead me to dream about that first German springer . I wanted a FWB 124 deluxe (got it ) and a 300 running boar ( still looking) . Is 38 years old vintage ? My 124 is a 1981 . I customized it some
Now that is one FINE looking 124 specimen !
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