GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Diana Airguns => Topic started by: Hornviper on September 07, 2018, 05:29:33 PM
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Hello guys,
I have a question about Diana's line of N-tec rifles that's why I am posting this thread in the German gate. I've only watched a few reviews on YouTube, and I have to admit that I don't trust them 100%. I'll keep it short and simple. Are the n-tec gas rams any good? Has anyone here shot one of those rifles, and if yes, what do you think of it? I do like the looks of the AM03 Stealth, but I don't know much about them. Diana is a very highly regarded maker of airguns in my part of Europe, so their new line of rifles is probably not at all bad. By the way, I am not a professional shooter, just an enthusiast.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Ev,
I should start by telling you that as of Jan this year, I work part time for DIANA. So, yes I'm biased.
BUT I don't fiddle my numbers, what you read in my blog is absolutely documented.
And I always make the appropriate caveats and disclaimers.
With that said, I would suggest you read these 4 articles:
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/converting-a-spring-powered-d34-into-an-n-tec-rifle (https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/converting-a-spring-powered-d34-into-an-n-tec-rifle)
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/documented-behaviour-of-an-n-tec-powered-d34-in-cold-weather (https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/documented-behaviour-of-an-n-tec-powered-d34-in-cold-weather)
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/the-mauser-am03-and-shooting-the-reconstructed-original-field-course-in-delaware-co-pa (https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/the-mauser-am03-and-shooting-the-reconstructed-original-field-course-in-delaware-co-pa)
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/second-round-with-the-diana-mauser-am-03-shooting-at-difta-on-cinco-de-mayo (https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/second-round-with-the-diana-mauser-am-03-shooting-at-difta-on-cinco-de-mayo)
They will give you some idea about what to expect.
Personally, I like better the standard AM03 version than the Stealth, but to each his own.
If you do get one, let us know here and we can discuss some refinements to the already good stock and sights.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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I'm no expert like Hector, but I have a 340 n-tec because they were clearing out at a great price last year (AoA, I think). It's the nicest break barrel I own and it shot great out of the box. Very smooth cocking action - far smoother than my tuned Hatsan 95, which is the only other >$100 break barrel I own (they are now equally accurate out to 4oyds but the 95 was tuned and the 340 is stock). Smooth and accurate and so far no issues with it at all. Mine loves 18.52gr Baracuda Hunter Extremes. The gun doesn't get great reviews or much coverage (not even sure they make it anymore) - but mine has been great. Entirely possible that I just don't know any better, but I'm a fan.
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The Diana N-Tec gasrams are not being produced by Diana self, but by a well respected German gasram producer that also produces the gasrams for the automobile industry etc etc. So it is proven technology.
Besides that, Diana's are very fine shooters with a great T06 trigger !!! So you can't go wrong...
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I don't post much anymore, (for no particular reason), but when I see a question from a member about a gun that I own, I will add my (hopefully) helpful experiences.
I purchased my N-tec Classic shortly after they came into the market here in the USA at a $400+ cost. First thing I noticed was the cocking was nearly as stiff shutting the barrel as it was to cock :o,, figured it would loosen with time and use...….it didn't happen soon enough for me and I ended up removing the stock and loosening the pivot bolt just enough so the barrel wouldn't fall after cocking,,, much better.
During my initial couple hundred shots of scope sight-in and general shooting at 25yd. off a rest, the gun was fairly erratic in grouping using CP 14.3 ammo. I blamed it on the ammo and began inspecting and caliper-measuring the domes, then using only the larger tighter fitting pellets,, groups improved, but would still get a flyer or two now and then.
One day while shooting I took a little break, when I came back couldn't recall if the gun was loaded and/or cocked, I broke the barrel and immediately noticed the pellet but also noticed the lower skirt was deformed....an AH HA senior moment here ::), something I never paid attention to before is that the mating surface of the breech is slanted and if the pellet is NOT inserted deep enough, the skirt gets damaged upon barrel closing, damaged enough to cause an erratic group is my guess.
I had some online messages with a couple other N-tec owners here about my discovery and they too experienced similar shooting problems. I chose to chamfer the loading port slightly on top allowing the pellet to be inserted deeper by finger instead of using a tool each time, problem solved and the gun shoots quite well and consistent now out to 35yds.
Another glitch I had during the first few months of ownership was power loss, I found that after a few shots the power seemed to drop quite a bit, I tested with my chrony and it would go from a usual 680fps down into the low-500s. I phoned Umarex and explained and of course they wanted the gun sent back. I asked if there were gas struts available for replacement and could I buy one and do the job myself? , then once I sent the bad original back to them, get compensated? they agreed and the gun is back to where it should be shooting.....at least I believe it still does? Since going to the "darkside"..... sorry to admit, my break-barrels sit pretty idle. ::)
Most of my air gun shooting is back-yard-small-pest extermination, my Condor SS is MOC (minute of chipmunk) DEADLY out to ranges that I would not consider taking the shot with a break-barrel gun. ;)
I hope you find my experience helpful, I'm not unhappy with my N-tec, just a couple tweaks and a glitch along the way.
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Thank you all for your help and time. :)
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I was in the same boat recently. I have lots of quality PCP but wanted something for the truck that needed no support gear. My choices came down to the N-Tec or the HW98. After much seesawing and questioning of lots of people I called AoA and asked which they had in stock.
They had both, no help there. So I queried them as well. They said hands down the HW98, so I took the plunge and bought one.
First impressions were good. Seemed to be a solid hunk. Put an Athlon 4-16 FFP on there. Went to the field in Cross, SC where there's a bunch of experienced members.
They all said I made the right choice. One who was an N-Tec owner said that what he liked about the Diana was the stock, but the HW was a much better performer and wished he had one.
Shot it all day and the only thing I was displeased about was that 4-16 scope. Decided to put a Helos 6-24 on it and return the 4-16.
Now w/ the Helos it's perfect. This is no kid's gun though, takes a MAN to cock it, but ifn you've got the arms it's NBD. My neighbor's teenage sons were over yesterday and they were struggling to cock it. I can do it w/ ease, though I must admit, after putting 250ish pellets thru it in a single day my arm felt it the next day.
I've put better than half a 500 tin down it's .22 throat and it's performing better and better. Peeps say it takes about 1000 rounds to really break it in. Pushing a 14gr H&N pellet at 700 fps.
Towards the end of the day in Cross we setup an informal chalk shooting contest on a saw horse at 30yds. By then I had the HW tweaked in pretty good and was easily keeping up with my buddies who are better shots and have more experience. The HW98 performed very well.
I'm happy that I chose the HW98 over the N-Tec and everyone says I made the right choice. It's a great gun.
If you on a tighter budget, I think the HW95 is essentially the same gun and is several $$ less.
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Ev,
Glad you're finding the info useful.
Something that bears stressing here is that NTec rifles should be stored muzzle down.
Otherwise, you risk a shortened life of the gas spring.
It's not a fault nor a mistake, it is simply how the particular gas springs behave better.
Personally, I would have a problem comparing apples to oranges.
If you are willing to spend US$550 (or more, depending on the relative prices between DIANA and other brands in Bulgaria), you might find other options opening for you.
The beauty of the Mauser AM03 is that, in the US at least, it sells for a little over US$300
The Stealth package is more expensive, and IMHO, you can build a better rig because you know what you need.
In any case, keep us posted.
HM
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Hector, could you explain just a little bit more the need to store the ntec muzzle down? Or maybe point me to a blog post you wrote? Don't want to hijack this thread, but would find the info helpful. Thanks.
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Thank you again. I definitely don't mind spending $550 and I am also open to other suggestions. I also don't mind buying a (metal) spring powered air rifle. Yes, the stock of the AM03 looks great, but I am sure there are other great options on the market.
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Hector, could you explain just a little bit more the need to store the ntec muzzle down? Or maybe point me to a blog post you wrote? Don't want to hijack this thread, but would find the info helpful. Thanks.
If I'm not mistaken ... it has to do with minuet amount of lubricant used within the rams nitrogen charged internal space. Storing muzzle down has this lube staying around the main piston seal / rod which keeps the seal better lubricated as well slightly swollen which is a design trait of most dynamic seals.
tho what i think i know could be mistaken :P
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Of all the ways to store an airgun, muzzle down is about the least intuitive. ???
Diana should sell a special umbrella rack to store it in. Does it have to be a perfect 90 degrees? Would 75-80 degrees be enough? :-[
-Y
Are Hatsan's the same way?
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The more one shoots a gas ram the less they have to worry how it is stored ;)
Yes all gas rams have the oil , now a NP2 with the ram reversed will store like a "normal" gun.
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Ooooopppss! Quite a lot of answers and comments! Good thing this is.
@PRFSSRLEE.- As posted by Rudemeister, the N-Tec units (gas springs) are not made by DIANA, but by a specialized German manufacturer that makes tens of thousands of gas springs for a large number of applications. Part of the specification was that the lubricant had to be contained within a smaller cavity, so that when the rifle was rested butt down, not all oil would seep all the way to the back and most would be in contact with the stem, which is the critical part to keep lubricated.
The manufacturer succeeded, up to a point. The cavity is much smaller, but it is not a closed one, and so there is ample opportunity for the stem to gather some dust and erode the seals.
The problem with gas springs used in air rifles is that the first shot is always an extension at high speed. And the other problem is that shooters do not want to action the spring a few times by hand BEFORE starting their shooting session, they just dive into it. Some other shooters (Mostly Hunters) take only shots that could be described as "cold-bore" shots.
In THOSE cases, it is better to store the rifle muzzle down. If you can take basic precautions and action the spring a few times by hand before starting your shooting session, then you can store the NTec rifles butt down.
Since chipmunks seldom give me time to action the spring a few times before taking a shot, I'd rather store my NTec rifles muzzle down. I have not had a failure or loss of power, yet.
@Ev.- If we have opened the initial interest to other options, then you need to start with the PURPOSE of the gun. There is no such thing as a truly universal do-it-all airgun in the same sense that there is no universal do-it-all anything. So, let's start where we should and define what you want to do with the gun.
My point of apples and oranges was not only based on the relative costs of the guns, but also on the performance. The HW98 is a 15 to 16 ft-lbs maximum rifle, and that is struggling with the quality of the shot cycle. The Mauser AM03 is a 20 ft-lbs gun with an impeccable shot cycle (for that power level).
You may or may not need the full 20 ft-lbs, that is up to you to decide.
@ Scott.- You are right. It has to do with the way lubricant is kept inside the gas spring. MOST gas springs have an open architecture where the cavity is simply the whole compression cavity, and that is why you see all gas springs in good and well designed furniture, cars/vans, and hatches being designed with the stem-down principle. Exceptions usually are specifically designed like that.
@ Yogi.- Yes it is counterintuitive, but that is why you have me to tell you. ;-)
I'll let DIANA know about your suggestion for an umbrella rack.
Don't know about HATSANS, I do know that 99% of all gas springs will behave this way. Perhaps you should ask Hatsan for a cutaway view of their gas springs and see if the lubricant is contained near the stem at all times or not.
@ Back_Roads.- Yes you are right, if you shoot your NTec gun everyday, there is no need to worry.
Now, reversing the gas spring has its own problems, the least of which is not the added mass piston+gas spring body (with the oil that would be a randomly located mass sometimes counteracting the push of the gas) is now the one that is a dynamic mass, with the subsequent alteration of the quality of the shot cycle. The NP2 rifles I have shot have truly terrible shot cycles so, unless the whole thing is designed like this and the force and the mass are balanced properly, or a proper dampener section is incorporated, reversing the direction of the gas spring is not really a proper solution.
Anyway, nice and interesting discussion Thanks!
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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I aways store my rifles horizontally period’
I’m not gonna comment on gas rams I don’t own any (sorry) & I never will’
I’m all spring bb’
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As usual, the devil is in the details.
If you box them before storing them, no harm will come to them.
Or if you have a rack that holds them (whether that rack itself is horizontal,or vertical, or anything in between, it is immaterial), then it's OK also.
Curiously enough, it is the WORST possible position to store a gas spring rifle.
Thanks for bringing the point up!
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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HM- thank you for the detailed and clear explanation! I learned alot, like I do everytime I read your blog. Makes sense - and my take away is that when I am plinking or just playing around, I should just jack the spring a few times before actually cocking fully to shoot. Is 2-3 times enough? 5-6 times? I guess I'm just trying to ensure that the oil makes its way from the small reservoir cavity up to the stem and that I break up any stiction - is that correct?
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Basically correct, David.
I would just advise you to do it 5 times before really getting down to shoot.
HTH
HM
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I was planning (probably still am) to use the Mauser for target practice and occasional pest elimination (feral pigeons, collared doves, crows, magpies, starlings, etc). I also forgot to mention that I am a former HW97K owner. I know some people swear by their Weihrauchs, but I couldn't get along with it. I shot an acquaintance of mine's Diana a few months ago (34 classic) and I quite liked it. I also prefer the T06 trigger (just my preference, I am not saying it's better than the Rekord,etc). As I said, I am not exactly a hunter, so I don't need the most powerful springer on the market. :)
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Same here ! Though I like my Weihrauch, I love my Diana and would take a Diana any time over a Weihrauch. The T06 trigger makes the Diana handling and finish complete. The only real downside of the Diana's is their length.., especially the break barrels. And thus more hold sensitive. Not sure if that counts for a gasram as well since the shot cycle is shorter compared with a spring version.
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I know that some people hate gas rams, but I don't. I've shot other gas ram powered air rifles before (Cometa Fenix 400) which is an excellent rifle for the money. I will eventually get used to the recoil/shot cycle. Or at least I hope so. :) I like both break barrels and underlevers as any of the high end springers will outshoot me any day of the week.
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I was planning (probably still am) to use the Mauser for target practice and occasional pest elimination (feral pigeons, collared doves, crows, magpies, starlings, etc). I also forgot to mention that I am a former HW97K owner. I know some people swear by their Weihrauchs, but I couldn't get along with it. I shot an acquaintance of mine's Diana a few months ago (34 classic) and I quite liked it. I also prefer the T06 trigger (just my preference, I am not saying it's better than the Rekord,etc). As I said, I am not exactly a hunter, so I don't need the most powerful springer on the market. :)
Feral pigeons and crows sometimes seem to be armored.
With a 13-15 ft-lb rifle I wouldn't try a broadside shot any further than 35 yards.
20 ft-lbs can get you 10 yards more, specially in 0.22"
Hunting with an airgun requires, above all, precision and accuracy.
Power will only give you more range.
NOTHING will excuse a bad shot.
If you have the time, type this line into Google search box:
www.ctcustomairguns.com (http://www.ctcustomairguns.com) other side of an accurate shot
You may find it interesting.
Good luck and keep us posted!
HM