GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Projectiles => Pellet Review Gate => Topic started by: VaporTrail on August 23, 2018, 09:03:03 PM
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So I have a Gamo Magnum .22, and haven't had any fitment issues until I purchased a tin of piledrivers. I planned on using these for hunting, but much to my chagrin...they didn't fit in the barrel. The domed part of the head would go in fine, but as soon as the middle part hit the breach, it wouldn't go any further.
Now I also ordered some Sniper Magnums and those fit just fine and dandy. Zero fitment issues. I found that rather confusing as it is also a .22 pellet...even more confusing seeing as to how it came from the same company.
Last night I decided to try and see if maybe the pellet would fit with some black magic (read: fingernails). After scraping off about .05 of a mil all around the head and about a 1/4 into the waist area, PRESTO! It went in! Uh oh...I didn't do the same for the rear of the pellet. Great...now I have to get a clearing rod and push it out. Then I decided to just push in the rest (about 1/4) of the pellet. It took a small rod placed in the hollow of the end of the pellet with a little force, but it went it. Now I was scared that it might jam, but it seemed to discharge just fine.
So there's no way that I'm repeating that fiasco. It says it's a .22 pellet, but it doesn't fit in my .22 break barrel. I'll be pulling the trigger on my first PCP (I'm really looking at the Flash. Or possibly the Flashpup), and I'm wondering if I'm going to come across those fitment issues again.
I want to use heavy pellets to maximize accuracy and FPE, and these were supposed to "fit" the ticket. Only they're not fitting.
Is there something I'm missing about these pellets?
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I'm hoping that Trenier starts selling the super heavy .177's because they really are a pleasure to deal with IMO. Right now my only option is PA.
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Never heard of Treneir...guess I'll look into them. PA is ok...but the shipping out to here is just a tad hard pill to swallow.
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aren't piledrivers "pcp only?"
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Yes, it does say PCP only. I'm wondering if it's because of the weight of the pellet. Or do PCP barrels have slightly larger inner diameter barrels as opposed to break barrels?
If its because of power, then I think I should have that base covered. My Magnum has shot out 14.3 Crosman and Benjamin pellets at higher velocities than some PCPs do right out of the box. The Urban, Gauntlet and Stormrider to name a few. Less than 50 FPS off of the Marauder stock velocities. :confused:
I admit I'm a newbie to PCPs (I don't even have one yet), but is there that much a difference between the barrels? Of the same caliber?
Help...
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We sell 17 cal slugs that load much easier
Nielsen specialty ammo
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Thanks Nick. I just placed an order with you. 8)
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We sell 17 cal slugs that load much easier
Nielsen specialty ammo
I should probably get some of them from you Nick because my DAR177 simply loves the heavy stuff, I'll bet that it would be really deadly with some slugs for sure.
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I will ask Ron this weekend if they have a .177 DAR, the guys bought 5 of those rifles but not sure what calibers they are. Funny SG won't ship to California so the guys ship to my shop in Arizona and I bring back the guns. I never looked in the boxes so not sure the calibers they bought.
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Nick, it appears the package has arrived...or at least, it should be on my doorstep when I get home from work. I'm stoked to try 'em out!
Thanks again for an awesome transaction!
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I have a few tins of Piledrivers in .177 cal. On every one I've measured, the widest spot is by far the ring on the head. Are the .22 Piledrivers shaped differently? Are you sure you don't have a long chamfer on the breech and it's stopping when the head reaches the bore?
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aren't piledrivers "pcp only?"
+1 EXACTLY
Maybe you should try the 32g Eun Jin & wonder why they don’t work too. ::)
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Last month I brought a tin of .22 Piledrivers from Germany. In anticipation of that PCP, when I find the right one... :D
I measured 10 of them with a digital slide rule -- but I'm not sure if I'm doing this right, I'm new to this. I just put the pellet between the calipers and read the numbers. But when I pressed the calipers together a little harder I had a variation for the same pellet as much as 5.57–5.67mm = .2195"–.2232"
So, maybe I just don't know how to use a slide rule (it cost 17$, is that quality enough?).
Here are the numbers, sorted:
mm inches
5.56 .2190
5.57 .2190
5.57 .2195
5.57 .2190
5.58 .2195
5.59 .2200
5.59 .2200
5.59 .2200
5.60 .2205
5.62 .2215
Also noteworthy. I found not one, not two, but three different versions of the H&N Piledrivers, version 1 through 3 (see pics*):
30.00gr | 29.17gr | 29.94gr
(Mine is version 2.)
*(After posting the otherwise very clear photos I have to say that the quality is really low now, you can hardly read the pint on the tins.... Is this normal that forum photos come out so poorly? Is there anything I can do about this?)
The BC's that different people measured with this pellet are simply astonishing. The lowest I found is 0.072, but most are in the high 80s and even 90s. Easily 3 times better than most other pellets.
I was intrigued by this and other high BC pellets (the Sniper line), and found that the inventor was Hugh Earl (owner of Prometheus Pellets/ Pax Pellets). He sold his company to H&N, so we get to enjoy these gems even after his semi-retirement.
VaporTrail, I hope these pellets work out for you (try some of the not so thick ones?). Maybe you did get a tin from a bad batch, they had some production problems some time ago I heard in a review on YouTube.
And I hope I will get a PCP soon so I can try them out! 8)
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Sure sounds like way too much change in reading for a single pellet measurement. You weren't pressing hard enough to actually deform the head possibly? I'd check the caliper on something hard like a bolt shank or nail and see if you note that much change.
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bandg - yep...that's exactly where it stops in the breech (or breach?). The band is what prevents it from going all the way in. From what I've seen, the .177 PDs are longer and more slender. The .22 PDs are shorter and wider. Still puzzled.
Habanero69er - I'm not sure if your post is sincere or facetious. Are Eun Jinn pellets PCP only as well? The only legitimate reason why I can see the pellets being advertised as "PCP only" is the weight. Standard pumpers or break barrels may not be able to push them out of the barrel due to lower velocity numbers. If that's the case, then the "PCP only" label may be erroneous? Post #5 of this thread addresses this concern. And if it still remains "PCP only", then what about the lower powered PCPs? The Urban, Maximus and the Stormrider to name a few. The Magnum is producing higher velocities than all those guns in stock form. So if that's the case, because they're PCPs, will they be able to push out this pellet based solely on that? If the concern is power, the Magnum has that in a decent amount. So what will be the next issue, I wondered? Would it be barrel I.D.? Would a PCP have a bigger I.D. barrel than a break barrel, allowing them to use this pellet? Still very confused. :-\ I've heard about the Eun Jinn pellets...so I'll probably snap up a box and try them out as well. Or is there some black magic surrounding these PCPs? Please enlighten me. I was so bummed when the wouldn't fit and then absolutely confused when the Sniper Magnums fit. Same company, same caliber. :o
JungleShooter - where did you find those versions? All I saw in my search were the 30 grains. If there's a slightly thinner one, I think that may just work! I'd be real appreciative if you could send me a link. And on an interesting note, there was another person who tried these in their PCP, and guess what happened? Yep...they had a hard time loading them as well. What devilry is this?
bandg - Every time to tried to load, it would stop right after the head. It's that devious band, I tell you! I don't want to force it in...that would leave so much lead in the barrel.
Thanks everyone for their replies!
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Facetious. Sorry.
There aren't too many springers that can push a 30g + pellet without the trajectory being loopy. Not to mention some of the lower powered PCPs. Personally, I'd look for a pellet that shoots accurately first, then worry about going heavy weight. Something like the 21g H&N Baracuda Match might be a good candidate if your rifle shoots them well. They are available in three sizes, 5.51, 5.52, & 5.53.
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Turn it around and put it in backwards. My Hatsan 125 .177 has little if any chamfer and the pellet will fall right to the ridge on the dome if placed in backwards-no contact on the pellet other than the ridge. Might answer some questions, might not.
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Shortcut = 'contact' directly HN
https://www.hn-sport.de/en (https://www.hn-sport.de/en)
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VaporTrail,
unfortunatley web sellers are not real good about updating their webpages when one of their product specifications changes. They might show the weight and the photo of version 1, but selling version 2. So, unless you talk to someone in the warehouse to read you the weight off an actual pellet tin, it's guesswork (you could ask on the forum who got a certain weight and where they got it, and how long ago).
And when it comes to pellets, our dear manufacturers are even less forthcoming when it comes to changes in their pellet specifications. They change not only the die and don't tell us about it (JSB used to be better about that). They also change the weight of their pellets, without any warning or announcement. The customer just discovers one day (or never!) that the grain number in ChairGun isn't the same as the one printed on the pellet tin. JSB's Monster at least rated a "Redesigned" on the tin (maybe because version 1 had gotten such bad reviews that they needed to make sure customers knew of the change?).
You're trying to find a thinner pellet – but if you get a lighter pellet that might still be the same thickness because the reduced the weight elsewhere... The version I have is the lightest of the three – but also it is version 2, so not the latest....
I checked the websites of my fav sellers in the US, but you are right, they all advertise 30gr, not the newer, lighter weights.
I found some sellers overseas, but they all what a lot of money for shipping (or it’s free, but then the tin costs 29$, ouch). One in Portugal sells a pack of 4 for 58$, free shipping to the US.
The Ebay ad is titled as follows: “H&N PILEDRIVER .22 5.50mm Airgun Pellets 4(tins)x150pcs FAC HUNTING SUPER HEAVY” (sorry, I can’t post external links yet, newbee).
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Habanero69er - Not to worry and thank you. I am curious to see how much drop in velocity the piledrivers will cause in the Magnum. I ordered some 28gr boattails from Nick at NSA...and the chrono showed 645. I'd like to run another test on them...the daylight was almost gone when I shot over the Chrono, so for the time being I'll excuse Maggy. As for accuracy, when I first got her, she was a tad pellet picky. The only pellet that showed some semblance of accuracy were the CPUM domes and the RWS Super Points. Fast forward to nearly 2500 pellets later, and she shoots just about everything I feed her with pleasant accuracy. 7 different pellets at 22 yards gave me a nickel-sized hole in my Dirty Bird target with the only exception being a left side flier that opened up that particular grouping by about an 8th of an inch. CPUM Domes are accurate, but inconsistencies result in consistent fliers. The Sniper Magnums are scary accurate...I've put three in the same hole and in a 7 shot group there's about +/- 1/16" variances. I attribute that to breathing and pull; be it either shoulder or trigger. Looks like it's time to order some Barracudas now..as well as run some accuracy and velocity tests on the 21 and 28gr NSA slugs.
bandg - your idea worked!! I was absolutely tickled when I put in backwards and voila!! it dropped right to the dome! Now I had pull the coin trick ala mpbby, but it ended up going into the breech. It was a little tight and I was a bit concerned it would jam, but it came out just fine. Next I need to shoot it over the chrono and see what numbers it gives out. It appears there is hope yet...thanks so much!
mpbby - so order directly from H&N? I shall contact them and see if they'll send out to me.
JungleShooter - That is a crying shame. It looks like if the PD venture doesn't work out, I may have to turn to slugs. I'll take a look at that ebay link you sent me...thanks for that!
Thank you everyone for your replies!
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I really wasn't suggesting that you shoot it that way but it couldn't hurt to try. I was really trying to get you to check fit into the barrel to see that the pellet is widest at the head and narrower behind that point. Before you had noted that the pellet would stop mid body when loaded normally but reversed will now drop in to the head. This shows that even the .22 Piledrivers (at least the ones you have) are widest at the driving band on the dome and narrower near the boat tail. This is apparently by design since the pellet has to seal in the bore for air to move it down the barrel but still be able to load (and not have too much drag) thus it has the narrow driving (sealing) band and a relatively loose fit at the rear of the pellet. This seems like it could result in pellet yaw when fired. I had also sent an email to H&N about possibly adding a rear driving band to stabilize the pellet better and they responded quickly stating that their manufacturing process will not allow such a change. Maybe NSA slugs will be the way to go for such heavier projectiles.
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No.
My suggestion to you is to ask HN about the Piledriver .22 diameter issues. They are usually very friendly, answering quick and - objectively.
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bandg - Oh...lol! Yes...it's exactly as you stated. It has a different diameter at the head, which lends to it being waaay easier to load backwards. Now I wonder if we load it like this, would it eliminate the possible yaw effect? Perhaps you are right...maybe it's time to start looking into the slugs.
mpbby - ah...I see. It appears bandg has beat us both, since he has already been in contact with H&N.
Thanks, guys!
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Don't discount trying the 28g Eun Jin, or the 21g Baracuda Match. Both have hard enough lead to penetrate hog skull. Seeing how you're shooting a springer, might be more suited weight to power-wise so that you get a flatter trajectory.
Personally, I'd look for the most accurate pellet first, then worry about weight. Accuracy is king!
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The .177 EunJin's shot very nice from my DAR177. If I use a slug in any of my .22's it'll be the BBT's that I cast from my NOE mold. They're extremely accurate from my Airmax Dominator
and really accurate from my Prod as well. Very easy casting and I honestly don't sort them cause they fill out in the mold so nicely. I have the five cavity mold and can cast 1000 of them
in very little time.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/843/29517310238_a70902cc31_b.jpg)
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H&N informed me that their manufacturing process would not allow adding the driving ring at the base WITHOUT A GREAT INCREASE IN COST and is not something they would pursue. Will shooting the Piledriver backwards eliminate the potential yaw? I surely don't know as it is uncertain if the accuracy issues with the Piledriver pellet is yaw related, twist rate related, or other. I recall reading one of the reviews (PyramydAir maybe) of the Piledrivers where one person did note that shooting them as a "hollowpoint" (backwards?) improved his accuracy.
I have experimented with removing the boat tail from the pellet and then flaring the resultant base to eliminate the possible yaw. You still have a very heavy pellet and I did see improvement in group sizes shot through my Condor at 25 yards but it is very difficult to do without damaging the pellet and I haven't found a way to do it reliably without wasting at least 5 or 6 pellets for every one that has turned out usable. I have ordered NSA slugs in each weight he makes and will be trying those in the near future.
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Besides twist rate the other major factor in slugs is the diameter. A small sizing difference can make a big accuracy change so you should not throw out the possibility that the diameter is not right for your barrel. I have seen some good results reported from the Piledriver in 17 cal so I think their design is good but not a match for every barrel out there.
Not saying that is issue but something to consider. When I make slugs I make them for the most common sizes I believe are out there because of the cost to have multiple dies with slight changes to accommodate ALL the barrels would not be cost effective. I am sure that is the same for H&N, they can only invest so much money into tooling and so they try to make a pellet/slug that works in as many as possible.
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If you're looking for HEAVY & HIGH BC pellets beyond the Piledriver there are quite a number to choose from.
You already mentioned the Eun Jin. There is a domed and a pointed version in heavy weight.
The lightest of the heavies are the H&N Baracudas (rebranded sometimes as Crow Magnum) that Habanero69er mentions. They are usually praised all over the web for their good performance (accuracy, BC of 0.036 -- averaging out different published BC numbers).
They are also available with a copper covering – which makes them extra hard (better penetration), and gives them a yet higher BC – which translates directly into higher energy retention at the target (BC of 0.042 or 0.044). ChairGun allows for a neat comparison. They're called Baracuda Power, same weight as the regulars, 21.14gr.
Weightwise next comes the Power Bolt from RWS: torpedo-shaped and pointed. 24.70gr. BC unknown.
H&N has a slug-shaped pellet called the Rabbit Magnum II with 25.31gr (in version 4) with a BC of 0.036.
It comes with a hardening copper coating as well: Rabbit Magnum Power, same weight, but higher BC of 0.039.
JSB has the Straton Jumbo Monster, a barrel-shaped, pointed projectile, at 25.39gr; for the BC I haven’t found trustworthy data.
The Ultra Shock Heavy by JSB is a hollow point with a barrel shaped body. 25.39gr. Because it’s a hollow point the BC is much lower, 0.022.
A third offering by JSB in the same weight is the Exact Jumbo Monster, but with skirt and domed. BC of 0.036. They have the regular Monster and the Monster Redesigned – supposedly for better accuracy and higher BC of 0.039.
JSB's Exact Jumbo Beast is the heaviest of the bunch – 33.95gr, and with a great BC of 0.046.
There are some others, but I don’t have much trust in their quality, due to the brand (no-name), or based on forum posts or high-res photographs of what the pellets actually look like (I attach a pic of the Gamo G-Hammer):
PDG | Destroyer | 26.00gr | ???BC | Slug-Shaped
PDG | Bomb | 26.00gr | ???BC | Barrel-Shaped
Gamo | G-Hammer | 27.80/27.76gr | 0.039BC | Pointed Torpedo-Shaped
Gamo | G-Buffalo | 27.80/27.76gr | 0.042BC | Torpedo-Shaped
Gamo | TS-22 | 21.75gr | 0.027BC | Domed
Fortunately, there are quite a few choices out there! In the end, what is most critical is accuracy. So, HAPPY TESTING your slugs and any other pellet that seems interesting.
If I had the gun with the power as yours, I think I’d try out the JSBs first, those with the high BC, and the Baracuda.
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The Eun Jins tend to run bigger in diameter. The Baracuda Match comes in three different sizes. Again, for the type of rifle & it’s power plant, some of the heavyweight pellets mentioned might give a loopy trajectory & may even be too heavy for optimum FPE. PCPs tend to be more efficient with heavier ammo than do springers. But if you find a pellet that is the most accurate and has good heft than that’s great. 😃
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Thanks for the information, Nick. Do you know offhand if your .177 slugs are softer than the Piledrivers? Seems softer might seal better to the rifled bore.
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Habanero69er - Yes, I plan on picking up a tin of both of those. Very good point that you bring up about the power-weight ratio. At some point, heavier pellets will overcome the power of the platform affecting accuracy. I don't know if you caught my earlier response to you, but so far Maggy does pretty well with most of the pellets I give her.
Wayne52 - Those are some mighty fine lookin boolits. You wouldn't be willing to...let me purchase some to try out, would you? I'd be most appreciative.
bandg - that's a shame to hear about that. I suppose I could try and shave some of the band off, but then the problem would be consistency. I don't have a sizer or anything close to it (or perhaps some metal cylinder in the right diameter?). Maybe I'll give your technique a shot and shave down some of them.
nielsenammo - Nick, thanks again for the goodies! I remember JungleShooter saying that there was different diameter PDs...but I haven't found them. Maybe like he said I need to order from outside the US. This weekend I'll be giving your slugs some range time.
JungleShooter - That's a nice list...I'll look into those. Heavy is good, but like Habanero pointed out, I'd like to find the most effective for power to weight ratio. Also just as important (if not a little bit moreso) is the hardness. Soft pellets aren't going to help my piggy adventures. Those copper coated ones seem pretty good...but I remember reading somewhere that the copper compromised the rifling. I guess I'm gonna need to order a tin of copper plated ones too! Yanno, for testing purposes. Honestly! (I doubt the wife will buy that line. lol)
Habanero69er - Aww man...again? Oh well..."dang" the torpedos, full speed ahead!! Your point about power-weight ratio is spot on...so maybe I'll try one more heavy variation (or maybe a couple) and see how the numbers turn out. Range will be within 20 yards (about 12-15, actually), so even if I start dropping down to the low 700s I think I'll be alright. I would like flat trajectory at least for 20 yards.
Awesome info everyone...thank you so much for the replies!
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To puncture that piggy head, you’ll need lots of energy at the target.
That energy depends on the answer to two main questions (if I interpret ChairGun’s graphs correctly):
(1) With how much muzzle energy does the pellet leave your gun? With PCP rifles, usually (not always) heavier pellets exit with more energy than lighter pellets. With springers it’s often the other way around. Your chrono will tell you the truth.
(2) The other question is – How much of that energy does Mr. Pellet still have left once he rendezvous with Mrs. Piggy? Here the BC of the pellet is the main factor.
A review of the Piledriver (then made by Prometheus, UK) on AirgunTV illustrates both points. Since I'm a Newbie I can't post links yet, so here's the title on YouTube: "REVIEW: Piledriver high efficiency air gun pellet"
The table below is from that video – the comparison is stunning, at the Piledriver has more energy left at 25 yards, then most of the other pellets had when they exited the muzzle!
(The “Bisley Magnum” is the rebranded H&N Baracuda.)
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Yes...that's exactly why I was really wanting to use the PDs for hunting...very good energy retention.