GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: AG72 on August 12, 2018, 04:38:45 AM
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I do most my shooting from a triggerstick, and almost all my airguns like it, but my hw30s in 177 hates it, i have struggle with this gun since i got it, tried different pellets, but cant shoot it consistently accurate, then it strucked me, she is hold sensitive, i put my hand in the V at the triggerstick and shot 5 shots, and the group shrunked a lot! Now this is not a comfortable way to shoot so i will try to shoot from a bench and a sandbag to see if that helps, but my question is: what cause hold sensitivity and is there a easy solution to it beside artillery hold? Is a plastic sleeve around the spring one way to fix it? Is the 177 cal more hold sensitive than other?
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The cause of hold sensitivity is the smoothness of the shooting cycle. That is why Weihrauchs shoot better then Gamos but I don't think that is the complete answer. The shooter has a lot to do with the result.
The experts tell me that the trick is to shoot the air rifle with exactly the same hold and shoulder/ cheek placement trigger squeeze every time. Easy to say but not so easy to do. It seems to me that those that get consistently good groups at a distance use sand bags front and rear.
Not for me I like to hold my rifle but it does work, especially for pcps.
I notice that a lot of air rifle shooters especially FT shooters use the same sort of glove as small bore .22 LR shooters. The ten metre air rifle shooters do as well and they are very very good but they are shooting pcps. I noticed shooting my air rifle that the fore hand and how you hold it ungloved, makes a difference to where the rifle points. Wide open flat palm the rifle points at the spot. Half close the hand and the rifle points higher and close a bit more and it points higher still. So that explains the reason for the stiff glove, same forehand rest every time.
The stiff glove is a bit of an encumbrance shooting a springer or a pumper because to load you need mobility in both hands. That mobility really precludes the use of a sling such as used in smallbore. You would have to unclip and reclip every shot and your hold would change a little.
The next thing is that the effort in cocking and reloading a springer or pumper involves exercise, more so than reloading a .22 target rifle and very much more so when shooting prone on a mound. That exercise raises the pulse. That can be mitigated with a couple of good breaths before going into the aiming, firing cycle but not completely when there is a string of shots to fire. 13 on a small bore range at a small bore target.
I don't have a satisfactory answer to your question so lets hope your thread brings out the complete one.
PS. Under my name Novagun is says Sharpshooter, Yea right.
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Hi Jorgen.
I have both multi-pumps and springers ( No PCP's). Most of my springers are gas ram but not all. This is how I shoot all my guns. I place my off-hand out and rest the palm on a tree trunk, door frame, tree branch, log etc. I rest the gun in the Vee formed between the thumb and fingers. The trigger pull (squeeze) may vary from gun to gun but the hold is basically the same. The palm is always facing away from me. If I am shooting off of a horizontal log I just rest my palm on the log and shoot the same way. If don't have anything to rest my palm on, I brace my arm and elbow on my body or knees and shoot the same way. The end result is I am always resting the gun between my fingers and thumb with palm facing away from me. I DO NOT GRIP THE FORE-STOCK. I let the gun float between my thumb and fingers. I shoot this way either standing or sitting with either a rifle or pistol. It is a variation of the artillery hold. I don't think anyone else here in the GTA shoots this way but I have had good results shooting like this. I suppose that you could call it the "Tommy-Boy Hold". You may wish to give it a try and see if it works for you too.
Best Wishes - Tom
P.S.
I can shoot this method in either warm weather or cold. Gloves on or off. I can also shoot like this with heavy mittens on. I have used this method while wearing snow shoes and cross country ski's. I originally started shooting like this, hunting in deep winter, while I was wearing mittens on my hands. I then applied it to everything else, year round. Shooting like this, you can still maintain control of your ski poles. I can even shoot this way with ice & snow on my gloves, whereas the palm flat method is not so good under those conditions. ;D
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Thank you Hugh, Some god info there!
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Thanx Tom! I used to shoot like so in my youth, don't know why i have not tried it yet, but thank you for the reminder!
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Some say that the spring guns recoil before the pellet ever leaves the barrel. Others discount this idea. Here are two videos that show barrel movement and how important it is to maintain consistency.
https://youtu.be/FaW_Hs0B79c (https://youtu.be/FaW_Hs0B79c)
https://youtu.be/OYm_tI7mbBw (https://youtu.be/OYm_tI7mbBw)
Either way and for the most part, a spring gun should be held as close to the same for each shot as possible. I have tried holding the forstock with the back of my hand resting on a solid object, resting the forstock on a foam base and resting the forstock on a pretty solid shooting bag. They all changed the point of impact, some more than others.
A spring release is quite violent. The more it can be kept in check with as few harmonics as possible the better chance the gun has of being accurate.
I have three higher end spring guns. An HW97 Motorhead tuned, an LGU tuned by yours truely and a TX200 with a 12 FPE Vortek kit in it. They are all about the same in accuracy with the slightest edge going to the LGU.
I have not gotten into the HW97. No need to mess with near perfection. The other two have a tube/shroud of sorts holding the spring on the straight and narrow. I fabricated a metal tube for the LGU and am using the Vortek set up as it came.
Doesn't matter which gun it is, after the shot breaks, I often loose the target from recoil and have to acquire it to see where the pellet landed. This is after taking every precaution to tame the recoil I know. Even with the recoil, all the guns can make a one hole group at 40 yards and will often rival my Daystate Wolverine R for accurate shots, but it is MUCH harder to do. Even the Wolverine has minor recoil that has to be considered.
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I have the most success when I find the placement of the front hand or bag on or very close to the balance point of the gun on the fore-grip. Usually no much ahead of the trigger instead of out at the end of the wood.
Let the gun do it's thing (recoil / twist / torque) and it will do it the same every time.
Don't try to stifle it.
I also do not wrap the thumb on my trigger hand around the palm-swell. Let it lie right in line with my trigger finger.
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I have the most success when I find the placement of the front hand or bag on or very close to the balance point of the gun on the fore-grip. Usually no much ahead of the trigger instead of out at the end of the wood.
Let the gun do it's thing (recoil / twist / torque) and it will do it the same every time.
Don't try to stifle it.
I also do not wrap the thumb on my trigger hand around the palm-swell. Let it lie right in line with my trigger finger.
+1.
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Thanx for all the info and help! The way i shoot is that i rest the gun on the triggerstick where the front stockscrews are placed, and usualy have my left hand in front of the triggerstick, and this works with all my airguns except the one mentioned, even the fwb 300 universal works perfect this way... But i will try different holds to see what happens
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This probably going to sound like a crazy idea but what if one were to put some kind vibration dampening device in the barrel or stock? Like a limbsaver for a bow?
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If i remember right, the general consensus is power vs. weight plays the biggest factor that you can't control with a good tune. A good balance point is about 1 pound of weight per foot pound of energy. I think that is part if the reason for the heavy stocks and big hamsters on some of the HFT springers. That is also probably why the fixed barrel springers are often considered more accurate, they are heavier and easier to shoot accurately.
The HW30S should be right at or below the threshhold of a pound per fpe. A proper tune should get it there if it doesn't come that way from the factory. I think a JM kit might help as well, with properly fitted spring guides and etc.
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This probably going to sound like a crazy idea but what if one were to put some kind vibration dampening device in the barrel or stock? Like a limbsaver for a bow?
Limbsaver makes the dampening devices as well, some swear by it. However I find it hard to tune to the right spot to make a difference
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Barrel vibration is a problem in some rifles but not so much in others. I have muzzle brakes on nearly all of mine. Most are delrin additions because I like the look and they provide rust proof handles for cocking and handling but they make no difference to accuracy. However I have two rifles, a Daisy 953 and a Webley Tomohawk that I have turned up steel brakes; quite heavy. They shoot very poorly without the brake but with it on the barrel vibration is very much tamed.
As far as recoil goes, the sleeving of the spring and tuning goes so far but reducing spring power makes a big difference. Light rifles with big springs like some Hatsans and Gamos benefit by reduction but you do lose some power.
Then of course triggers. A lot of factory triggers are just bad and with a bad trigger with inconsistent let off or excessive creep there is an impediment.
I mention this because perhaps consistant hold can be confused by other things that influence accuracy. Even flinching on discharge and following through after discharge.
PS. Is the dampimg device spoken of with bows the rod with weights on it that I have seen and does that parallel the barrel weights on target rifles.
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Part of the problem is no cushioning between the stock and the trigger stick. Try a piece of pool noodle or other foam on each side of the fork. Also, if you move the contact point fore or aft, it will change the POI a ton. You will find that one location will be the most consistent. Keep trying different things, you will find IT.
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you can also span the top of the y with a strip of fabric. IIRC UTG makes one like this.
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Springers have a double recoil. Rearward as the spring launches and forward as the piston reaches the end of the air chamber. Our bodies react to this without us even knowing it. Another cause is the lockup. If it's loose or weak your barrel will droop when the gun is shot.
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I will add to this spring torque adds a spiral motion to the mix, if side pressure from a shooting stick yoke or similar front rest, or hand hold, can bounce a gun sideways a bit during the shot cycle . Polishing spring ends and adding thrust washers can help remedy that.
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I just received a John in Pa tuned AAtX200 and as my first springer. I got to tell you, I have a long way to go before I can shoot this beauty accurately.
Mitch
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Pad the yoke of the sticks with either a pool noodle or wrap an old sock around it.
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This probably going to sound like a crazy idea but what if one were to put some kind vibration dampening device in the barrel or stock? Like a limbsaver for a bow?
I placed one on my D34 pro compact, I had removed the muzzle weight. I could not tell any difference accuracy wise even placing the damper at different points on the barrel. However Im not a great shot. The big improvement came when slapping the barrel.open. It took all of the sting away. I'll be adding one to my HW50 for that reason alone.
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I will add to this spring torque adds a spiral motion to the mix, if side pressure from a shooting stick yoke or similar front rest, or hand hold, can bounce a gun sideways a bit during the shot cycle . Polishing spring ends and adding thrust washers can help remedy that.
I often wondered if using two springs with opposing winds could mitigate this effect, and how difficult it would be to get someone to make them...
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The dual piston rifle by Whiscombe
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/11/whiscombe-rifles-and-barrel-harmonics-part-1-introduction/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/11/whiscombe-rifles-and-barrel-harmonics-part-1-introduction/)
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The dual piston rifle by Whiscombe
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/11/whiscombe-rifles-and-barrel-harmonics-part-1-introduction/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/11/whiscombe-rifles-and-barrel-harmonics-part-1-introduction/)
Very ingenious, but more complicated than what I was thinking. I was thinking about stacking them end to end. Not thinking it would eliminate recoil; but rather reduce the torque that can tug you off target. Being a drop in part would be much more economical than a rare rifle. At least that was my thought...
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Like an FWB 300s ?
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/51/b9/9b/51b99b2c738c9d88492f1984efb24651.jpg)
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Like an FWB 300s ?
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/51/b9/9b/51b99b2c738c9d88492f1984efb24651.jpg)
Looks like what I was thinking. I wonder if there are aftermarket kits, that can be used as replacements for popular rifles that didn’t originally incorporate this design. And what the benefit would be...?
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Even when I think that ‘all systems go’, I have to frequently check how am I doing my part in the consistency challenge.
Make a comprehensive checklist of all those 'things' that you think already know, and each one that depends only on the shooter to avoid relevant errors to the group size.
Second nature? Just before some random shots, hold your fire and mentally pass through the checklist - are you doing 100% right, or..?
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Hi Jorgen.
I have both multi-pumps and springers ( No PCP's). Most of my springers are gas ram but not all. This is how I shoot all my guns. I place my off-hand out and rest the palm on a tree trunk, door frame, tree branch, log etc. I rest the gun in the Vee formed between the thumb and fingers. The trigger pull (squeeze) may vary from gun to gun but the hold is basically the same. The palm is always facing away from me. If I am shooting off of a horizontal log I just rest my palm on the log and shoot the same way. If don't have anything to rest my palm on, I brace my arm and elbow on my body or knees and shoot the same way. The end result is I am always resting the gun between my fingers and thumb with palm facing away from me. I DO NOT GRIP THE FORE-STOCK. I let the gun float between my thumb and fingers. I shoot this way either standing or sitting with either a rifle or pistol. It is a variation of the artillery hold. I don't think anyone else here in the GTA shoots this way but I have had good results shooting like this. I suppose that you could call it the "Tommy-Boy Hold". You may wish to give it a try and see if it works for you too.
Best Wishes - Tom
P.S.
I can shoot this method in either warm weather or cold. Gloves on or off. I can also shoot like this with heavy mittens on. I have used this method while wearing snow shoes and cross country ski's. I originally started shooting like this, hunting in deep winter, while I was wearing mittens on my hands. I then applied it to everything else, year round. Shooting like this, you can still maintain control of your ski poles. I can even shoot this way with ice & snow on my gloves, whereas the palm flat method is not so good under those conditions. ;D
I am definitely gonna try this when I get home now!
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I once read something by Robert Beeman where he recommended a firm grasp of the forearm when bench shooting a spring gun. Obviously consistency is the key. Whatever you can duplicate with the most consistency is going to give you the best results.
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Well so far we haven't got a definitive answer and probably will not.
I recall that the chap that won the world field target springer championship used an AA Prosport. That rifle had a 9 inch barrel, as I recall and the extra length was just a shroud.
I think that is how Prosports are made. Maybe someone can confirm that.
Some of the 10 metre pcps have a very short barrel and the extra length is just a tube to hold the sights at a respectable distance.
The Prosport that won the FT had more than one weight clamped around the barrel /shroud. That shroud must have oscilated and needed to be controled so that it didn,t shake the whole gun. Why not take the shroud off so it can't shake because it was not necessary to hold the foresight as a scope was used.
I have a couple of rifles with short barrels, not nine inches but 10 & 1/2 and the shoot well. Both of them I shortened because they didn,t shoot very well before docking. Less length, less to oscilate. The difficulty is that short break barrels are hard to cock and short underlever barrels make for short levers. Remedy; lighter spring. Around we go again.
Those videos are really informative and that is why springers are hard to shoot.
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The dual piston rifle by Whiscombe
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/11/whiscombe-rifles-and-barrel-harmonics-part-1-introduction/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/11/whiscombe-rifles-and-barrel-harmonics-part-1-introduction/)
Very ingenious, but more complicated than what I was thinking. I was thinking about stacking them end to end. Not thinking it would eliminate recoil; but rather reduce the torque that can tug you off target. Being a drop in part would be much more economical than a rare rifle. At least that was my thought...
I have seen that stacking trick and didn't realize the springs were opposite handedness.
When you posed your question, my first thought was of one spring inside of the other, like this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/TUNING-GAMO-CFX-ROYAL-TWO-SPRINGS-FAC-360M-S-AIR-RIFLES-Free-shipping/173455166537?hash=item2862bbcc49%3Ag%3A0eYAAOSwQFhbaLXb&_sacat=0&_nkw=gamo+springs&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR1.TRC0.A0.H0.Xgamo+springs.TRS0 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/TUNING-GAMO-CFX-ROYAL-TWO-SPRINGS-FAC-360M-S-AIR-RIFLES-Free-shipping/173455166537?hash=item2862bbcc49%3Ag%3A0eYAAOSwQFhbaLXb&_sacat=0&_nkw=gamo+springs&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR1.TRC0.A0.H0.Xgamo+springs.TRS0)
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I have the most success when I find the placement of the front hand or bag on or very close to the balance point of the gun on the fore-grip. Usually no much ahead of the trigger instead of out at the end of the wood.
Let the gun do it's thing (recoil / twist / torque) and it will do it the same every time.
Don't try to stifle it.
I also do not wrap the thumb on my trigger hand around the palm-swell. Let it lie right in line with my trigger finger.
Me too. My R9 is particularly particular about the way she is held and cuddled.
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Definition of hold sensitivity -
As we all know, when a spring-piston gun is fired, the piston is first accelerated forward, and when it reaches the end of the chamber it bounces backwards. The bounce backward happens before the pellet has a chance to move more than a few centimeters down the barrel.
The first motion of the piston causes a backward recoil of the gun, the piston bounce causes a forward recoil.
By themselves, neither of these two recoils significantly affect accuracy because they both induce a movement in the same direction as the axis of the bore.
However, because we are holding the rifle, a reaction force and a reaction torque are produced, which run through our hands (and through any supports on which the rifle rests). This reaction force and torque are required by the law of action and reaction so the gun won't fly away.
If this reaction force and reaction torque, which are transmitted to the gun by our hands, are not absolutely consistent from shot to shoot, the direction of the bore axis will change from shot to shot, and so will the POI.
Definition of hold sensitivity: "A gun is hold-sensitive when it is difficult for the shooter to consistently supply the reaction forces and moments needed for the gun to stay on target."
Basically, hold sensitivity isn't a issue with the gun, but with the shooter.
The unwinding of the spring also contributes to this.
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Finaly i got out to shoot again, had realy bad weather, and i got sick and am still with fever but i had to get some air, there is a bit windy today so just shot at 10 meters but as you can see it was enough, shot 10 shots at each target from my ironingboard and a bag, i rested my gun at the front stockscrews in the middle of the bag, my left arm and hand was on the board. The pellets i used was Jsb in the following weights: 7.33, 7.87, 8.44 in 4.51 and 8.44 in 4.52, then shot the 4.52 from my triggerstick, there is a common team with the result from these targets, can you see it? And i apologise for the crappy photos but the sun was right in the display so i did not see until i got home.
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Jorgen :
Myket bra ! ;D Basta onskningar - Tom
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Jorgen :
Myket bra ! ;D Basta onskningar - Tom
Haha tack so mycket! But it is not so "bra" vertical stringing on all targets, something is wrong,
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Jorgen :
Myket bra ! ;D Basta onskningar - Tom
Haha tack so mycket! But it is not so "bra" vertical stringing on all targets, something is wrong,
Not too bad...considering the situation.. RE : "Finaly i got out to shoot again, had realy bad weather, and i got sick and am still with fever but i had to get some air, there is a bit windy today" I hope you feel better. Best Wishes - Tom
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Jorgen :
Myket bra ! ;D Basta onskningar - Tom
Haha tack so mycket! But it is not so "bra" vertical stringing on all targets, something is wrong,
Not too bad...considering the situation.. RE : "Finaly i got out to shoot again, had realy bad weather, and i got sick and am still with fever but i had to get some air, there is a bit windy today" I hope you feel better. Best Wishes - Tom
Thanx Tom, i need some more days of rest before i´m ok, the gun didn´t shoot well before either so need something done, did a tissue test on the breech and no problem there, so i think the breech seal is ok, maybe the piston seal, maybe some diesling have damage it? If the spring was bad, there wouldent it be more of a shotgun patern rather than just vertical? Some pellets shoots hole in hole and then starting spreading high or low...
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Definition of hold sensitivity -
As we all know, when a spring-piston gun is fired, the piston is first accelerated forward, and when it reaches the end of the chamber it bounces backwards. The bounce backward happens before the pellet has a chance to move more than a few centimeters down the barrel.
The first motion of the piston causes a backward recoil of the gun, the piston bounce causes a forward recoil.
By themselves, neither of these two recoils significantly affect accuracy because they both induce a movement in the same direction as the axis of the bore.
However, because we are holding the rifle, a reaction force and a reaction torque are produced, which run through our hands (and through any supports on which the rifle rests). This reaction force and torque are required by the law of action and reaction so the gun won't fly away.
If this reaction force and reaction torque, which are transmitted to the gun by our hands, are not absolutely consistent from shot to shoot, the direction of the bore axis will change from shot to shot, and so will the POI.
Definition of hold sensitivity: "A gun is hold-sensitive when it is difficult for the shooter to consistently supply the reaction forces and moments needed for the gun to stay on target."
Basically, hold sensitivity isn't a issue with the gun, but with the shooter.
The unwinding of the spring also contributes to this.
Excellent description.
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"The ability to restrain from grasping the muzzle and wrapping the gun around a tree trunk."
Oh... wait... wrong kind of "sensitivity"
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"The ability to restrain from grasping the muzzle and wrapping the gun around a tree trunk."
Oh... wait... wrong kind of "sensitivity"
LOL!!!
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Not a springer, but I recently found using a pcp that what I was sitting on actually was causing inaccuracies. Perhaps I needed to be on cement. I think my hold is fairly consistent. I am by no means any kind of an expert, just some things I am finding out along the way...here is a video showing how it went:
https://youtu.be/mj8vIC7OMuw
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Regarding the HW30 and the vertical strings at 10 meters.
For any springer, I would try to rest always on a soft and resettable surface; for the D 350, when seated with a rest, I put my hand over a bag and the rifle on the (100% relaxed..! ::)) palm.
Anyway, once you are trusting the shooter's tasks and the resting, I would check the scope. Replace by one that you REALLY trust; if the errors remain 'similar', it was not a problem with the original scope.
Then, my guess would be some inconsistency about the locking up.
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Vertical stringing can be any number of things, position of the hold on the foreshock, follow thru, even heartbeat and pellets.
Old time FT shooters almost exclusively used springers, and some would tape a block of wood under the stock so that they would 'palm' it at the same location every time. Same idea has been presented here in this thread, hold it the same way at the same place every time, find the most accurate location of the hold, mark it so you hold it there every time.
That rifle shouldn't be all that hold sensitive, so it's possible that the internals are somehow inconsistent. Maybe someone has gone inside and tried to make it a powerhouse and mucked things up.
And check your scope too.
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I often wondered if using two springs with opposing winds could mitigate this effect, and how difficult it would be to get someone to make them...
I had a crazy idea of cutting the butt of the stock off somewhere then counterboring both sides as to allow springs to be placed in.
Securing the springs with shoulder bolts.
Wasn't brave enough to try it, who knows, perhaps with a certain spring tension it may be interesting.
That's sort of thinking outside the box but I am fairly much done with springers.
They are fun to shoot its just I don't think they are for me.
I have enough trouble hitting where I aim without the added variables they introduce.
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Thanx for the reply's, they Do help me trying to find what is "wrong", the gun is new with a vortek spring, no power gained with it, atleast i don't think it increased, has been some pellets trough her since i cronoed, i will take her apart to see if something looks bad, and install the original spring, and take the wooden stock from my other to swap to see if that helps, and the scope also
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Sometimes i don't know why i keep doing this hobby/lifestyle/obsession, cause i am not a handyman at all, i am very good at destroying stuff, so a hammer and a stone should be my limit... Anyway i took her apart and found out i have a complete vortek kit that i had forgotten that i put in, so the tophat was also a vortek, there is a small dent in it at the top but could that be the reason for stringing? When i put it together my feverish head tought it should be a good idea to swap the spring from vortek to original, so put the original in the springguide and the tophat and put her together, but it would not hook up when i break the barrel, apart with her and removed the tophat, same problem so apart again and when i should remove the spring from the guide it was stucked... No matter how much i tried it doesn't move a mm... After a loooong time i gave up, i had another original spring so i changed to that instead and now it works anyway, but i still have an expensive vortek kit that i cant use... I think i need to sleep...
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Problem solved! Atleast i hope so... I shot maybe 60-70 shots today, and it only got better the more i shot, these targets are shot in that order as numbered, it was some vertical stringing at the first ones, but then it stoped, i shot 10 shots at each target from my triggerstick, i adjusted the scope for the last target, then started plinking for just pure fun, i did a crony test also for 15 shots, was between 180-184 m/s, 590-603 ft/s with JSB 8.44 in 4.52 size. Hopefuly i can enjoy this gun now as much as i do with the .20 cal. Thank you so much for the reply's and help! So what was wrong? Don't know exactly, but i think the harmonics in the gun was not there with the Vortek kit, maybe stressed the gun somehow?
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Congratulations!
Making the case useful, maybe you should do some upgrade in your troubleshooting guide for springers, in order you may have a systematic approach when trying to isolate the possible causes.