GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Machine Shop Talk & AG Parts Machining => Show us your Custom Airgun Parts (TRICKS-N-TIPS) => Topic started by: Motorhead on August 05, 2018, 04:21:13 PM
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* I'm not selling these ... but info is here so you can manufacture your own ;D
* Shown is a .20 cal H&N barracuda pellet & tool
I like to tinker, try stuff other folks don't waist there time with and some times find something so simple that works I smile ;D
This is one of those tools that has for years been done with a pencil, ball point pen tip, wood dowels etc etc ... only looking to remove a bent skirt so a pellet could be semi-confidently shot.
Well .... taking the idea more seriously and actually paying attention to how a pellet when loaded into barrel ( Breech probe deep set ) or even what happen when fired from a ( Flush set breech ) pellet has to fold / collapse the skirt tail inward to fit the bore. :o Ok, what if skirts not round ... Well I'll tell you.
Ever heard the term PATH OF LEAST RESISTANCE ? In the case of lead air gun pellets this is the pellet chambering at the tail OFF CENTER happening when the skirt as it is compressed inward side shifting due to inconsistencies of resistance by the lack of skirt uniformity.
End result is the pellet having the chance to be in a state of static YAW and when shot NOT SPINNING exactly true head to tail on the it's cord center line.
If and when pellets do fly spinning without wobble / yaw there flight is uniform all the way to intended target. ( within realistic range mind you )
* Wobbling pellets simply wander around with subtle shifting POI.
So what this tool does is UNIFORMLY TRUE the pellets skirts so that it at least is as accurate to the original as manufactured shape .. and in some cases actually a tad better ;)
THE TOOL ITSELF ...
Gets angle matched to the SPECIFIC caliber, manufacture, weight and sometime LOT# of a pellet.
Idea is to dead nuts match the pellet skirts outer most edge angle so that when a pellet is placed on tool and lightly twisted the lead yields side to side and is gently drawn back into being round and uniform.
* By matching the angle we prevent actually BELLING the skirt larger ( Tho you could if you press real hard ) and having the shape now perfectly round that when loaded into barrel the skirt has no choice but to collapse & crush inward evenly.
Note below that the pellet skirt takes on a look of being Lathe turned ... where in reality it is just burnish marks ;)
The angle if correctly matched will have said pellet actually want to Stick to the tool as show ... pretty cool.
Anywho ... if your a competitive shooter or wish to add another trick in finding better accuracy from your pellets ( good quality pellets !! ) this may be worth giving a shot .... literally ;)
Scott
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* I'm not selling these ... but info is here so you can manufacture your own ;D
* Shown is a .20 cal H&N barracuda pellet & tool
I like to tinker, try stuff other folks don't waist there time with and some times find something so simple that works I smile ;D
This is one of those tools that has for years been done with a pencil, ball point pen tip, wood dowels etc etc ... only looking to remove a bent skirt so a pellet could be semi-confidently shot.
Well .... taking the idea more seriously and actually paying attention to how a pellet when loaded into barrel ( Breech probe deep set ) or even what happen when fired from a ( Flush set breech ) pellet has to fold / collapse the skirt tail inward to fit the bore. :o Ok, what if skirts not round ... Well I'll tell you.
Ever heard the term PATH OF LEAST RESISTANCE ? In the case of lead air gun pellets this is the pellet chambering at the tail OFF CENTER happening when the skirt as it is compressed inward side shifting due to inconsistencies of resistance by the lack of skirt uniformity.
End result is the pellet having the chance to be in a state of static YAW and when shot NOT SPINNING exactly true head to tail on the it's cord center line.
If and when pellets do fly spinning without wobble / yaw there flight is uniform all the way to intended target. ( within realistic range mind you )
* Wobbling pellets simply wander around with subtle shifting POI.
So what this tool does is UNIFORMLY TRUE the pellets skirts so that it at least is as accurate to the original as manufactured shape .. and in some cases actually a tad better ;)
THE TOOL ITSELF ...
Gets angle matched to the SPECIFIC caliber, manufacture, weight and sometime LOT# of a pellet.
Idea is to dead nuts match the pellet skirts outer most edge angle so that when a pellet is placed on tool and lightly twisted the lead yields side to side and is gently drawn back into being round and uniform.
* By matching the angle we prevent actually BELLING the skirt larger ( Tho you could if you press real hard ) and having the shape now perfectly round that when loaded into barrel the skirt has no choice but to collapse & crush inward evenly.
Note below that the pellet skirt takes on a look of being Lathe turned ... where in reality it is just burnish marks ;)
The angle if correctly matched will have said pellet actually want to Stick to the tool as show ... pretty cool.
Anywho ... if your a competitive shooter or wish to add another trick in finding better accuracy from your pellets ( good quality pellets !! ) this may be worth giving a shot .... literally ;)
Scott
I found that pellet head size was more important than the pellet skirt, however your "pellet skirt flaring tool" would be helpful for those pellets with "undersized oval skirts". IMHO, as long as the pellet skirts are large enough to be "swaged a bit" when pressed into the leade all pellets shot will have the same size/shape after exiting the leade/bore/choke.
I also made up a "not for sale" pellet head sizer that sizes the pellet heads and consistently flares/rounds the pellet skirts at the same time and it takes about 5 seconds to do the "reforming"............
(https://i.imgur.com/p2Nqal1l.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/aIhAApFl.jpg)
In this pic you can see the slight "flattening" of the pellet head rim after sizing before pushing back out of the die............
(https://i.imgur.com/kyXgVxZl.jpg)
Before and after sizing CPLs.............
(https://i.imgur.com/qbrnYqjl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/xDKoJrpl.jpg)
LOL----while the sizer giving a 4.50mm pellet head works great for CPLs and pellets with head sizes larger than 4.50mm, it was practically useless for sizing/skirt flaring of JSB Exacts marked 4.52mm because most pellet heads from the tins are smaller than 4.50mm (or even 4.48mm). A while back I lapped the sizing ring of the 4.48mm die to increase the pellet heads to 4.50mm heads, however the pellet skirts are 4.56 mm regardless of the sizing ring (I just measured a couple).
Making a "pellet head sizer/pellet skirt expander" is a bit tedious and is what I did. First made a "D" reamer from O1 tool steel, then hardened it for reaming a 4mm hole drilled in a piece of 01 tool steel.........
(https://i.imgur.com/qq9O7bDl.jpg)
I went through a few variations of "D" reamer design and settled on a piloted "D" reamer for reaming my sizing die. The "4.48mm step" of the "D" reamer is a bit undersized to allow lapping for a pellet head size, however the result was/is a pellet sizer that is rather permanent. Well......permanent if you don't break off the "D" reamer like I did when cutting another die. LOL.....I think that the reamer wasn't properly tempered making it too brittle to survive the "excessive reaming pressure" I used! ::)
After reaming the die there was/is a rather slow tedious process of "lapping, pushing through new pellet, measuring the pellet head, more lapping of the sizing ring if needed, so on and so forth. After fabrication the "D" reamer it was hardened to cut the unhardened tool steel die. The die that was reamed was then hardened and the the sizing ring was lapped after hardening.
LOL....a pellet with a slightly oval pellet head (there are quite a few which makes me wonder how a "hole in a plate sorter" would work) will be detected because it will "hang up" in the die like this, but the ram will iron out, round and size the pellet skirt when pushing the pellet head through the sizer.......
(https://i.imgur.com/yDGEHC2l.jpg)
This is how a CPL with a normal round pellet skirt drops through the die to the sizing ring before sizing..........
(https://i.imgur.com/K4d1uSdl.jpg)
Anywhoo.......I added this reply just in case anyone would like to try making a "pellet head & skirt" sizer. Here are a couple boxes of CPLs that were sized and sorted into "size lots" while watching YouTube machining and airgun videos. LOL, weighing CPLs was/is more tedious than sizing the CPLs since the sizer ram is set to just push the pellet head through the sizing ring, then the sized pellet is pushed back out of the die which takes about 5 casual seconds per pellet............
(https://i.imgur.com/1E9ZvKCl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/CCjjZb2l.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/JUd22a9l.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/nzvhfcBl.jpg)
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A little more easy is a RCA to mini jack adaptor..
I keep one in my shooting kit.
Also I made a gizmo from some archery field points.
It works very well.
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I can appreciate the improvised solutions, but I like the simplicity of Scott's tool. Having access to a lathe and some brass and steel stock kicking around, I think I'll give it a try for the JSB 8.44 grain that the R10 likes so much. The backside of the JSB is a straight, short cone, so should be pretty easy once I determine that angle. Some other pellets have a change in internal angle at some point going towards the head--that would be a little trickier to make.
As I read the replies so far, I thought this might turn into a "show us your sizing tool" thread :) Thanks for the posts and thanks for starting this on its own from the other thread, Scott!
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The bent pellets I find in any cal. get tossed into the lead pot and get resized to .25 - 50 cal. :D
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"SKIRT TRUING TOOL"
Well, I just use
Golf Tee's
And a file to get them right
I try coloring them to not misplace them but
they seem to have legs
lucky Tee's are free to cheap
just
sayn
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Then you have Bob’s orginal seating tool to smooth out that skirt.
I use it mostly on the break barrels but it works on the Diana, TX and FWB too:
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Old Post from what the Site is telling me, Thanks but I need info !
I recently purchased a Benjamin Armada, so far a decent PCP Gun but the Magazines can often leave you wanting a little more.
First I found some of the pellets weren't loading as well as I anticipated. Next I had a few jammed pellets when loading the Gun from the of the magazine. When I inspected the magazines the first thing that stood out was all of the pellets did not seat to the same depth.
I could force them to seat deeper in the magazine but I don't know if that would wear out the plastic magazine faster and/or just create more of a jammed condition when the jam happens.
So I am looking for a tool that will allow me to size the OD of the skirts to a given dimension (?) and at the same time maybe allow a tool to reform the ID of the skirts, if needed.
Does anyone have any input on a Tool of this type, does it exist, does it work as I am thinking ?
Thanks for your time.
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Scrambler82
Here is what I did to solve that problem, works very well, plus you can change head/skirt sizes to fit,
just have to make the top and bottom pins to fit the pellets (no 2 pellets are the same dimensions), your want to use etc.
See post #32 for photo's,
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=154633.msg155708971#msg155708971 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=154633.msg155708971#msg155708971)
Hth's
Don
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Scrambler82
Here is what I did to solve that problem, works very well, plus you can change head/skirt sizes to fit,
just have to make the top and bottom pins to fit the pellets (no 2 pellets are the same dimensions), your want to use etc.
See post #32 for photo's,
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=154633.msg155708971#msg155708971 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=154633.msg155708971#msg155708971)
Hth's
Don
Thanks for the input with pictures.
I'm not handy enough or have the right tool to make pins and dies, are these thing available for sale given a specific pellet ?
I will check out the press and see what that's about !
Again, thanks for your time !
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I gotta get one of my machinist buddies to make me something. I don't have the machine tools to do it at home and I don't work for a company that has easy access to a machine shop any more. Scott did you do drawings? Has anyone done drawings? I'm still just using an acorn nut, but all it does is round out the skirt, not form it correctly. I also like the head sizing Ed. I know at one time there was a source for a tool like that, but I can't find it anymore.
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As far as I know, I have never seen anything like this posted anywhere.................so I did a DIY job,
I had an OLD lube sizer all set up for my PB's and didn't want to change it, so I got a cheap one off Ebay. LOL.
The press is a Older Lyman lube sizer, (Ebay has a bunch of them), reloading section,
I just turned up a Noe size die holder to fit, and then turned the pins (top/bottom) to fit inside the NOE sizer die/caliber etc.
Measure the inside dia at the pellet waist and the end of the pellet skirt, use a angle figuring calculator to find the angle,
cut then, cut/polish the taper until it fits perfectly etc.
I am making a HP slitter punch to make better HP's, I hope..............
HTH's
Don
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Lord knows, if there's a way to muck things up, I can find it! In a way, I'm glad I don't have all those wonderful machines at home, I'd spend a lot of time in and out of ER.
I found this tool, it seems to fit the task https://www.trrobb.com/product/adjustable-pellet-sizer-177 (https://www.trrobb.com/product/adjustable-pellet-sizer-177)
As far as I know, I have never seen anything like this posted anywhere.................so I did a DIY job,
I had an OLD lube sizer all set up for my PB's and didn't want to change it, so I got a cheap one off Ebay. LOL.
The press is a Older Lyman lube sizer, (Ebay has a bunch of them), reloading section,
I just turned up a Noe size die holder to fit, and then turned the pins (top/bottom) to fit inside the NOE sizer die/caliber etc.
Measure the inside dia at the pellet waist and the end of the pellet skirt, use a angle figuring calculator to find the angle,
cut then, cut/polish the taper until it fits perfectly etc.
I am making a HP slitter punch to make better HP's, I hope..............
HTH's
Don
If you could make a sizer to go from .22 to .20 caliber, I'd be your #1 customer!
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Lord knows, if there's a way to muck things up, I can find it! In a way, I'm glad I don't have all those wonderful machines at home, I'd spend a lot of time in and out of ER.
I found this tool, it seems to fit the task https://www.trrobb.com/product/adjustable-pellet-sizer-177 (https://www.trrobb.com/product/adjustable-pellet-sizer-177)
As far as I know, I have never seen anything like this posted anywhere.................so I did a DIY job,
I had an OLD lube sizer all set up for my PB's and didn't want to change it, so I got a cheap one off Ebay. LOL.
The press is a Older Lyman lube sizer, (Ebay has a bunch of them), reloading section,
I just turned up a Noe size die holder to fit, and then turned the pins (top/bottom) to fit inside the NOE sizer die/caliber etc.
Measure the inside dia at the pellet waist and the end of the pellet skirt, use a angle figuring calculator to find the angle,
cut then, cut/polish the taper until it fits perfectly etc.
I am making a HP slitter punch to make better HP's, I hope..............
HTH's
Don
If you could make a sizer to go from .22 to .20 caliber, I'd be your #1 customer!
Such as this ? https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=150220.msg1534214#msg1534214 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=150220.msg1534214#msg1534214)
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Lord knows, if there's a way to muck things up, I can find it! In a way, I'm glad I don't have all those wonderful machines at home, I'd spend a lot of time in and out of ER.
I found this tool, it seems to fit the task https://www.trrobb.com/product/adjustable-pellet-sizer-177 (https://www.trrobb.com/product/adjustable-pellet-sizer-177)
As far as I know, I have never seen anything like this posted anywhere.................so I did a DIY job,
I had an OLD lube sizer all set up for my PB's and didn't want to change it, so I got a cheap one off Ebay. LOL.
The press is a Older Lyman lube sizer, (Ebay has a bunch of them), reloading section,
I just turned up a Noe size die holder to fit, and then turned the pins (top/bottom) to fit inside the NOE sizer die/caliber etc.
Measure the inside dia at the pellet waist and the end of the pellet skirt, use a angle figuring calculator to find the angle,
cut then, cut/polish the taper until it fits perfectly etc.
I am making a HP slitter punch to make better HP's, I hope..............
HTH's
Don
If you could make a sizer to go from .22 to .20 caliber, I'd be your #1 customer!
Such as this ? https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=150220.msg1534214#msg1534214 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=150220.msg1534214#msg1534214)
YES, SIR! That is exactly what I would like to own. I however lack the technical and practical knowledge to machine such a marvel and I think you, Scott, are a rather busy man. If you happen to feel like parting with this set-up, please, please let me know.
Thank you,
Ted