GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: dcmeyer on July 25, 2018, 06:48:19 PM
-
I'm wondering why manufactures are not more forthcoming when it comes to the actual pellets they use when calculating max velocity and fpe. It's rare to see an advertisement that shows the actual weight of a tested pellet, much less, if ever, the actual brand name.
The question came about because I currently have a Hatsan being shipped to me. It's advertised max velocity is 900fps and 40fpe. These specs are shown where I purchased it and on the hatsan.usa website. However, hatsan.tr shows a slightly lower spec at 870fps and 34fpe.
So the first question is do they sell a different spec rifle in the US vs overseas? Secondly, does a reduction of 30 fps translate to a 6fpe loss? Seems disproportionate. The max fps loss is not as great of a concern but a 6fpe energy loss seems big because it brings a .25 closer, if not the same as some advertised .22 specs and kind of seem to negate the advantage of the larger caliber downrange energy to some extent.
I understand that they want their product to rate as high as possible and they use the best combination to achieve their claims but using ChairGun I can find no combinations of popular pellets that can duplicate listed specs, not only Hatsan but any others as well.
So for those of us that these specs mean something to why don't they just list the actual ammo they use to test. And for those who don't, then bigger is better and it just becomes a pi**ing match. Considering most people who buy a higher end air gun are more in the enthusiast category and more knowledgeable I don't see a point in the manipulation of information.
-
It seems to me that they want the new guy coming over from the firearms world. More power seems to sell guns. Did you see video review before you bought yours?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iXfvRjzQ-UU (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iXfvRjzQ-UU)
-
Yes, more than once.
I sent an email to them for some clarification but either way I don't think I will be unhappy with the purchase.
-
Looking at that review (All I have to go on) I too think you will be happy. It is a good looking gun.
-
Hatsan is pretty spot on with their listed FPS, in the case of their break barrels they are above their stated energy levels, and the PCPs I have are right there too.
Pyramid Air does the best job of listing the pellet weight and FPS and are pretty close to actual specs.
-
There are a lot of people here in the US that only really know airguns from the crsoman 760 or Daisy red Ryder they had as a kid, manufacturers / importers list the fps as high as legally possible without lying to get these people who would probably otherwise buy a rimfire rifle instead.
If they think it's as powerful yet backyard friendly...ect they're likely to buy it over a PB.
Also people often have the idea that they should have the most powerful gun they can get, and that power equates to quality.
You show them an expensive German springer with a claimed velocity at say 700, and a $90 Chinese springer with a claimed velocity of 1200 and the Chinese springer is what they'll choose.
They want to brag to their buddies about how high powered their gun is.
-
Nothing will change until the manufacturers start getting massive returns when their guns do not shoot 1400 fps or the advertised velocities. Why we allow it I do not know.
It often seems that some manufacturers release selective fit or tuned, handbuilt guns to select companies or individuals, often to numbers representative of their advertising hype, only to release substandard performance on the very people rushing to support their business.
We accept this deception or outright lies. I always wait and see what production guns produce rather than jump in line for disappointment or excuses.
-
I would gladely buy any gun (spring or gasram) that claims over 1100 fps IF they mentioned with wich pellet AND show a target with THAT pellet at some varius distance over 20 yards...
-
::) ;D Most of the high FPS pellet velocitys are achieved using very light pellets. No matter the rifle or pellet the best performance is FPS at or around 800 to 950 FPS. this is primarily due to the shape of the pellets and the exceeding of the speed of sound. When the pellet passes through the sound barrier there is destabilizing of the pellet once it drops back below that threshold on the way to the target there is further destabilizing of the pellet. Bob Sterne and Lloyd Sykes probably have a thread that can better explain this than me. The shuttle cock (badminton birdie) shape performs best at speeds below the speed of sound, that also makes the rifle more backyard friendly.
In short these rifles perform better with heavier pellets and a little TLC to eliminate the issues like rough & heavy triggers which also hurt accuracy.
-
I have quite a few hobbies (fishkeeping, archery, r/c cars......), and its pretty much all the same, when it comes to advertisement: advertise BIG! Numbers are over inflated to impress, to sell. Are they unthruthful? Not really. However, they get these numbers that are not practical in a real world setting.
-
::) ;D Most of the high FPS pellet velocitys are achieved using very light pellets. No matter the rifle or pellet the best performance is FPS at or around 800 to 950 FPS. this is primarily due to the shape of the pellets and the exceeding of the speed of sound. When the pellet passes through the sound barrier there is destabilizing of the pellet once it drops back below that threshold on the way to the target there is further destabilizing of the pellet. Bob Sterne and Lloyd Sykes probably have a thread that can better explain this than me. The shuttle cock (badminton birdie) shape performs best at speeds below the speed of sound, that also makes the rifle more backyard friendly.
In short these rifles perform better with heavier pellets and a little TLC to eliminate the issues like rough & heavy triggers which also hurt accuracy.
I have a Chinese Springer that is the epitome of this. With alloy pellets only 3 of 10 will hit on an 8 1/2 x 11 target at 25 yards with an obvious "crack" when fired, the same gun with Crossman Premier 10.5 gn will shoot 1 1/2".
And yes, the trigger is awful.
-
Just to follow up on this, they have not changed the advertised specs online anywhere. I believe that they just de-tuned it a bit to increase the shot count. For anyone interested it was easy to get JSB kings, 25.39gn, over the 40fpe mark with a hammer spring adjustment at 875fps. I'm sure it will easily reach 900fps with the 20gn FTT's I have.
-
I wish they would put fpe instead. :D
-
Overstating the FPS rating probably helps to sell a lot more cheaper rifles, which may be the ones they make the most profit on. If a lot more rifle were sent back due to this, manufacturers may adopt the policy Hatsan uses by providing more realistic ratings to their firearms.
-
If people only knew.......
I would much rather own and shoot my Diana .22. @ 700 fps than most Walmart guns rated for 1200 fps.
-
It is all part of marketing and that part of the marketing is deceptive. Not blatantly dishonest but decpetive. Justy like the advertising to sell Ford Rangers and Audi SUVs.
They will do it but not for long.
We don't have anything like Walmart here but we have two gunshop chains that sell air rifles. They have a line up in a secure rack so to look closely you need to ask a salesman to unlock the rifle, even for an air rifle. That gives the attendant a chance to drop in the phrase, "powerful rifle, 1100 fps. Looking at a rack full of enticing black air rifles, no wood stocks, they look swanky and raise the desire quotient with the special lighting ; until you get the rifle in hand and feel the odd plastic and the bits that aren't finished very well. Always ask to try the trigger. I have a hefty block of wood to shoot a pellet into. Works every time.
The display range is just like supermarkets brimming with food, looks good and enticing. 1100 fps is a far more impressive figure than 15 ft pounds. The figures, either one, are meaningless. There is no point buying any second rank gun uinless you know about and are capable of doing all the things required to get it to shoot acceptably, and that can include buying a replacement trigger. A cheap overpriced gun is never pleasant to shoot.
The worst is the advertising from Gamo that states they are precision airguns. That alludes to good accuracy. A play on the emotions but there is no claim or evidence of what the rifles is capable of on the range. Not like the expensive CZ PBs that have a test card.
Wet day, mouthing on, things aren't what they used to be. Even then they probably weren't.