GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: Gertrude on July 24, 2018, 02:35:24 AM
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This thread will be an account of my impressions and observations as we use this new gun(s), and as more information is collected, I will try to include it here.
Well, We're jumping onto the Dynamic / DAR bandwagon I guess.
With the recent release and interest in the Dynamic PCP, My buddy Craig ordered one for us to play with, dissect, tinker on, and see what we like or dislike about it.
There is another thread discussing this new DAR rifle that can be found here :
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=144959.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=144959.0)
We want to see if these Dynamic rifles will show some of the same characteristics we see in the SPA guns for performance, and modifiable potential, as we are hoping to eventually get the DAR .25cal pushing NSA Slugs with respectable power and consistent accuracy.
OK,... So these guns suddenly became available through Sportsmans Guide about a month ago,without any real prior indication or information that they were coming. We do not have a great deal of info on them yet, but we are learning some things about them pretty quickly.
They are packed full of very nice features we like to see, which includes a Shrouded Barrel, SIDE LEVER Action, 2 Stage Adjustable Trigger, 10 Shot Capacity Magazine, Large Air Reservoir, Light Weight, .... for under $300 ! THAT'S PRETTY COOL !
They are made in China (by a unknown manufacturer), for Aim Sports Inc. and distributed by Aim Sports in Ontario, Ca. From what I have been told by Aim Sports, is these are NOT manufactured by SPA or Xisco. I have spoken with a sales rep at Aim Sports, (Ryan), and I have asked for more information on them as he (hopefully) will be able to provide. Specifically, I have asked for any Exploded Views, Parts Identification lists, Diagrams, and ESPECIALLY for the Trigger Group components and assembly details.
Currently, Sportsmans Guide is the only retail source for these guns... but that will be developing soon, and Aim Sports has told me there will soon be other sources for these rifles, (and hopefully extra parts / magazines, etc.).
This past weekend we took the Dynamic DAR.25 PCP for our first field tests, and to see what it will do straight out of the box. I tried a few various manufacturers pellets and weights to get some chrony numbers and groupings.
Each target shown below, has 10 shots taken at 50 yards.
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/Airguns/Dynamic%208_zpsvps5myyq.jpg)
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/Airguns/12345678909876543211234567890987654321_zps2d6sj4av.jpg)
(I forgot to label this first target), but it is shot with 10 shots, at 50 yards, with JSB 25.39 gr. pellets.
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/Airguns/Dynamic%201_zps2kvugi6z.jpg)
These are all shot from a bench rest, using front and rear sandbags. Winds were blowing directly across the firing line at approx. 9 to 12 mph. (Quite windy for trying to shoot good tight groups),.. but overall, I'm pretty impressed so far.
At current tune, I think these 33.95gr JSB MkII are a bit too heavy for ranges beyound 50-75 yds, due to, they are only going 765 fps. I feel the trajectory would be too "loopy" for my tastes at that slow of a speed, but they DID group pretty well for 50 yds.
(The top shot is fully my fault as I was still trying to get accustomed to the rather stiff second stage on the trigger.
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/Airguns/Dynamic%202_zpsoj0zc49j.jpg)
These Vortex Supremes did not do very well at all. I attribute this is probably due to them being only 19.91gr, and going 962fps is most likely just too darned fast for them to stay stable in flight. I think with a slower tune, (perhaps 860-880fps) they might do considerably better.
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/Airguns/Dynamic%204_zpskcfygcdm.jpg)
I was actually pretty surprised at these Benji Domes ! the gun seemed to really like these pellets. The two far right shots were my fault for getting ansy in the winds, and not waiting for the wind to die down to take the shot. (it was blowing pretty good when those two shots were taken), but heck, the other 8 shots were basically same hole/cloverleafs !
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/Airguns/Dynamic%203_zpsymeuyfne.jpg)
By the time I got to shooting these H&N Barracuda Hunter pellets, the wind was getting very gusty and not letting up. I do believe they will shoot much better, in better conditions... so this is probably not a fair representation of how these will group in this rifle.
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/Airguns/Dynamic%2010_zpssvcqnq6c.jpg)
I did try some standard Predator Polymags, and found they WILL NOT fit in the magazine.
I dont remember exactly the velocity they were going, but I'd guess they were 880-885 fps.
I did single load and shoot about 5 of them with pretty good grouping, (under an inch or so), but I failed to take a pic for those.
Perhaps if enough of these rifles start selling,Predator will need to make a "short version" of the .25 cal Polymags, (just like they did for the .22 cal) to fit in the Marauder magazines.
I do have some QC observations and impressions of this rifle that I will share in my next post. Some things I really like, and some things that will certainly need to be addressed.
BUT !, with that being said,...
... I am Pretty Darned IMPRESSED with this rifle so far, ESPECIALLY at the current price point ! ! !
My group of shooting buddies was so impressed with this first rifle, that we ordered FOUR MORE OF THEM ! ! ! LOL !
I have a feeling these are going to become Very Popular, VERY Quickly.
Stay tuned ;)
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Ron, nice write up! I am interested in this rifle so thank you! I look forward to more of your observations.
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Looks promising Ron, and we know that:
1. Triggers can always be improved.
2. Winds always die down.
3. A suitable projectile can always be found.
Looking forward to your one hole groups, lol.
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Here's some more of my first observations and impressions.
Upon removing the stock from the action, it reveals the Breech, Hammer Tube, and Trigger Assembly are a one piece, Mono Block type construction. It looks nicely done, very clean lines, well machined, and very solid.
I'm not sure how this mono block type of construction, will play out with future maintenance and or modifications. it appears that the valve mounts directly to the mono block, just in front of the hammer tube, and then the air tube (with internal regulator) mounts to the front of the valve. I kind of like this method of screwing the valve directly into the block with threads,... as opposed to holding a valve into a tube using mounting screws.
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/Airguns/Dynamic%2012_zpst6rxiwyr.jpg)
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/Airguns/Dymanic%2011_zpssdvmjgyi.jpg)
I am a little disappointed that there is NOT a removable Cover Plate for the Trigger Assembly. This could, (probably will), make it a bit more difficult to do trigger polish / lube tunes and adjustments. It appears that the trigger components are all installed from the bottom and held with pins. This means that it will not be possible to see the trigger components in the installed positions, which in turn, will make it a bit more difficult to determine exactly where the contact points will benefit from polishing and moly lube. I would have much preferred to see a removable side plate to the Trigger Assembly, (similar to that used on the Marauders).
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/Airguns/Dynamic%20trigger%201_zps7jfsxrud.jpg)
Here's something I REALLY liked.
Look how Tiny/Thin and Long the pellet probe is !
Providing we dont end up having some problems with them bending after extended useage,
I think that is a GREAT feature. We certainly will NOT need to be turning these down smaller trying to improve airflow. i can't imagine wanting these to be any thinner than they currently are. They look to be plenty long enough, to get any pellet skirt past the transfer port for full airflow.
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/Airguns/Dynamic%2014_zpsaikf4s9g.jpg)
Although I DO very much prefer a Side Cocking Lever, (over a Rear Bolt) action type, it has already raised some concerns with other owners, due to it being quite wobbly coming straight from the factory.
Upon close observation, I believe the wobbling is coming from TWO contributing factors.
The first contributing factor, is obviously having too much gap between the Cocking Lever and the Breech. This can easily be reduced by using a thin shimming material to try and close up the gap.
If you look closely, you can see here that we added a shim below the Cocking Lever... and we will probably be installing a second shim in the near future.
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/Airguns/Dynamic%205_zpssnykimm7.jpg)
The Second contributing factor to the wobbly Cocking Lever, is the size of the hole that the pivot pin rides in. The hole in the lever appears to be larger than the pin it pivots on, allowing the lever to wobble up and down a little more than I am comfortable with.
Maybe it will be a problem, and maybe it wont.
Time will tell with more people using them.
I am just hoping that we dont start seeing these Cocking Levers beginning to break off, when someone tries to close the lever on a tight pellet of slug, (similar to the problems we were reading about with the early Kral Punchers).
I think anyone shooting this rifle will need to be made aware of the wobble before just turning them loose on it. Just be careful to push it STRAIGHT FORWARD, and not "crooked" when closing the Cocking Lever.
Another thing that I did not particularly like is the size and shape of the Cocking Lever. I think the lever could stand to be a little bit more substantial in strength (thickness), and a little less "Beveled" on the forward side.
The Cocking Lever was slightly uncomfortable to cycle with the beveled edges, but it's certainly NOT a "Deal Breaker" for anyone considering buying one of these rifles.
I Do like the magnet catch for keeping the Cocking Lever closed.
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/Airguns/Dynamic%2013_zpsdgbvnwbv.jpg)
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/Airguns/Dynamic%207_zpswgpgw0zn.jpg)
The next thing I found that I did not particularly care for is, the width of the opening at the Breech.
It is pretty narrow, and makes single loading a little bit "fumbly" even with my skinny fingers. Anyone with "Sausages for fingers" will find it quite difficult to single load. Perhaps adding a Single Load Shot Tray will alleviate some of that awkwardness. Attempting to single load Polymags, or longer pellets did prove to be a bit difficult.
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Great write up Ron, go for the trigger... do you think a properly drilled hole might allow vision of the sear and a way to provide future lubrication?
Craig
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Good write-up review so far Ron! Subscribed... ;) ;D
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Great write up and illustrations. You've almost convinced me to order a .25 to keep my .177 company! I've found that blown YH burst disks make excellent shims for the cocking lever! ;D
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Excellent report Ron, thanks for taking the time. ;) Enjoyed reading it and look forward to following this thread!
Ed
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Great write up and illustrations. You've almost convinced me to order a .25 to keep my .177 company! I've found that blown YH burst disks make excellent shims for the cocking lever! ;D
I did it the other way around Paul, I got the 25 cal first and just ordered the .177, I was out shooting mine again today and blew the top of a chipmunks head clean off, upload just finished and I post it in the hunting gate 8)
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Ron, what is the absolute longest pellet that will function in the .25 cal DAR magazine?....
Bob
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Bob the ones that I've been casting fill it pretty good at .375 but they work just fine. I was out shooting it today, didn't see any red squirrels but I snuck in a little plinking while I was out there. I took the top of a chipmunks head right off with the 34.5 grain.
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Ron, what is the absolute longest pellet that will function in the .25 cal DAR magazine?....
Bob
Hi Bob,
I don't have the rifle right in front of me at the moment, but I will be happy to measure it for you this evening to get you an actual dimension.
But with that being said, ... The Polymags almost had enough clearance to rotate the magazine cover.
If you remember back to the Gen1 mrods, the Polymags did not fit those either. Several of us were able to successfully modify the original mrod mags by disassembling them and CAREFULLY use a dremel to deepen the groove in the bottom of the mrod magazine.
There was just vary enough "meat" in the mag to get them to fit without breaking through the plastic.
Some of the guys who had better machining skills also cut a groove/track into the clear plastic magazine cover. Then there was also one of the vendors who started offering replacement mag covers WITH the groove cut in them, but they were fairly expensive, and near the cost of a new magazine.
I THINK this would also work on the DAR magazines.
I will get you some actual measurements later tonight.
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Counting my pennies, hope to order one soon!!
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Nice review, Ron. Those Benji Domes will surprise you, eh? I believe there's a youtube video of Southern Gunner shooting like 200 yards with those benji's and getting a decent group. Keep up the good work and thank you for the info on that rifle.
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Ron, what is the absolute longest pellet that will function in the .25 cal DAR magazine?....
Bob
Absolute Longest pellet, in factory .25 magazine, would be .370 - .373
That's only going to give a couple of 1/1000ths clearance, and could have/cause a nearly binding condition.
I noticed that the factory magazine has a FLAT bottom with No Groove.
It looks to me like the magazine could be modified with a Dremel to create a groove up to about .035 - .040 deep without breaking through the backing plate.
So that would theoretically allow for a max. pellet length of .405 - .410
I just measured a .25 Polymag at .422
The clear plastic magazine cover meas .097 thick,
So I suppose one could gain another .035 - .040 in pellet length, by cutting a channel in the clear cover plate.
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Great write up Ron, go for the trigger...
Hey, It's your gun,... so if I mess it up it's no great loss to me,... Right ? ? ? :o ::) ;) ;D
... do you think a properly drilled hole might allow vision of the sear and a way to provide future lubrication?
Craig
Yep, I do, ... but size and location of that hole(s) will need to be determined first.
Oh Wait,... I forgot,... it's your gun !
Heck, I can just go "wild willie" on it ;D ;D ;D
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Great write up and illustrations. You've almost convinced me to order a .25 to keep my .177 company! I've found that blown YH burst disks make excellent shims for the cocking lever! ;D
I did it the other way around Paul, I got the 25 cal first and just ordered the .177, I was out shooting mine again today and blew the top of a chipmunks head clean off, upload just finished and I post it in the hunting gate 8)
Wayne, I think I'm going to wait till the second generation DAR25 is released and then get one. My DAR177 is serial# 2, So I feel I'm a beta tester for the .177, I think I'll wait till they work out a few of the bugs before diving into the .25!
I saw your write-up on the chipmunk, nice shooting! Those suckers are small and don't like to sit still for you!
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Interesting, that is quite a bit shorter than a .25 cal MRod magazine at 0.450", not counting the rounded groove in the front....
Bob
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Bob I know for a fact that it works good with the NOE 250-34-RF pellets and those are .375 in length. That's basically all I've been using in mine, I did put about 20 of the JSB33.95MKII's through it but that's about it.
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My DAR177 sure seems to like the H&N Sniper Mediums!
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That's a good group you got there Paul, I can only hope that the .177 that I have coming has as good a barrel as yours, how far was that target ???
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ok, so,
just trying to maintain some continuity in various issues that are becoming apparent with these Dynamic / DAR rifles, I am including this link to another thread, where legitimate concerns are being expressed about the factory supplied O-rings, and brand new rifles being delivered leaking, and not holding air.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=146226.25 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=146226.25)
Yes, I do agree that we should be able to expect a product that is delivered and performing up to reasonable expectations. This would INCLUDE receiving a new air rifle that is holding air.
BUT
We are all very aware of the questionable quality, and track record, of standard issue Chinese O-rings.
YES ! This is something that needs to be addressed.
YES ! I will make it a point to discuss this with Aim Sports, (providing I "have their ear"), and they are willing to acknowledge the issue.
This is the kind of VERY SIMPLE issue , that Stellar Customer Service , will insure Customer Product Confidence and assured Customer Loyalty. (translation - Future Customer SALES)...
Ryan, are you reading this ?
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So, I am waiting to hear back from Ryan at Aim Sports for an email I sent to him on Monday.
I'm sure he is a very busy guy, and will reply to my email soon.
Now, understanding all of that, I also recognize that many of us here have various Chinese manufactured rifles that we see as "Diamonds in the Rough" .
Many of us have willingly taken "cheap Chinese rifles" nd tinkered them into some AMAZING performing rifles.
Case inpoint -
I have about $250 in Modifications and Accessories, to my $100 QB78D. That's Just CRAZY, RIGHT ?
but here's the deal,...
It is now converted from a 12-15 fpe, Co2 cartridge gun, to a 30+ fpe, Ninja bottled and regulated PCP, all professionally tuned, barrel leade , crown , bore polished, "Cock on open modified", All trigger components Polished and lubed, all internal O-rings upgraded , Custom LDC installed, and wearing a 4-16X40 scope, and a picatinny mount bipod.
This gun will shoot Aspirins at 50 yds all day long.
I also have a Bottled, PCP converted XS60c that is doing 27-32 fpe on a 1500 psi fill for about 30 shots per fill.
This gun will hold "MOSH" at 60-75 yds all day long.
I have a "Gawwd I Don't KNOW how much", wrapped up in a 2240 pistol, converted into a bottled PCP Carbine (my Franken-gun), that is delivering 40+fpe and will hold "MOSH" at 100 yds all day long.
My point is,
We KNOW these Chinese guns are going to be mediocre on performance direct from the manufacturer.
We ALSO KNOW, that there are a few Chinese guns out there that take VERY KINDLY to a little knowledgeable and experienced tinkering,... and once done so,... they will perform much like guns costing $1000-$2000 bucks !
That's still VERY "Worth it" in my book.
Sure, ... the guns should not leak straight out of the box.
I'm not arguing that.
All I'm saying is these Dynamic guns are packed with a lot of the better features, of better guns, for a price BELOW $300 !
I can live with having to replace the O-rings if necessary. Heck,... They'd need to be replaced inside of 6 months to a year anyway, with as much as I will be shooting it. LOL.
I'm not real concerned with "Warranties", on a gun that is manufactured in China, and then Distributed by a "Middleman", to a
independant Retailer, and then sold to me.
I'd rather tear it apart myself, install some good O-rings, and inspect all other components (while I'm in there) to see if I can improve anything with a little de-burring, polish, lube, etc.
But that's just me. ;) ;D
I will update as info becomes available.
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oh yeah,
I forgot to add,...
... the one .25 cal we have had for about a week now IS HOLDING AIR just fine.
it is performing quite well of an "out of the box" gun, ...
... and as a matter of fact,
it did so well on it's first time out,
that FOUR more of the guys in my shooting group ordered one for themselves while we were still on the shooting lane.
so within the next couple of weeks,
We will have 5 of these guns to compare against each other.
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Another thing that is alluring about Dynamic products is that they plan on other products from the same mfg in the near future. I know that I was discouraged to hear through the grapevines that Diana has exclusive rights to all the SPA products being distributed to the north America on certain models, I heard the SPAM16, Chaser, PR900W and more. That's bad news for JSAR if that's true, I hope that JSAR is able to at least get some of their products rather than leaving people in north America 3rd party option only.
IMO we need a good airgun factory in north America with machinery capable of producing good products made of steel rather than plastic, I kinda doubt I'll see it happen in my lifetime but then you never know.
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That's a good group you got there Paul, I can only hope that the .177 that I have coming has as good a barrel as yours, how far was that target ???
LOL! It was 40 yards, but that is a group of 1! I'm just thrilled that it puts the H&N Sniper Mediums where I place the crosshairs!
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I just spoke with Ryan. He is working on a final exploded view, and he knows we all are wanting that as soon as possible. He assured me that when he gets them, he will let us all know and get them available to us.
He also told me that he is waiting for a shipment of extra magazines to arrive in the near future, and he will let us all know when they are available.
Ryan ROCKS ! ;D
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Yes, Ryan and Aim Sports I give an A+, Sportsmans Guide...... D-
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Yes, Ryan and Aim Sports I give an A+, Sportsmans Guide...... D-
Just curious, why the D- for SG? They are just the distributor, the information posted (as misinformed as it is) probably came from the manufacturer or the importer. As far as quality goes, they just shuffle boxes, I doubt there is any inspection/QC happing in their warehouse. Personally, I have had very good service from SG. I'll be contacting Aim today about my barrel band and to let them know I had o-ring issues as well. I'm not looking for anything from them, I just think they should know.
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Has anyone verified the manufacture of these guns? If not, I'm guessing they are BAMs. For no other reason than, I have two B3s, measured the dovetails. Almost the same as the DAR.
Also good news on the exploded view. I have been wanting to tackle the trigger, but don't have the nerve. Would like to have at least a exploded view.
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I have worked retail for the last twelve years for Home Depot, if they sell something that is found to be defective the customer is free to return it for a refund or exchange, no questions asked. I believe most retailers operate with similar policies, at the very least Sportsmans Guide should have let me return the rifle for an exchange if not a refund, and then sent the defective rifle themselves back to Aim Sports. Now, this is just my opinion, others are free to disagree. Anyway, that why the D-
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One more observation after spending a little more time shooting the .25
I think I will be modifying the clear plastic magazine cover.
I feel the pellet loading hole is just a tad too small which causes pellets with wider skirts not to just drop in, and needing a extra push to get them in the mag.
While I have the mag cover off,... I think I will also elongate that hole (similar to a Marauder magazine) too. This should eliminate the need to load the first pellet from the front of the magazine.
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Magazines for the 25 cal aren't that good, the .177's work very good. I'm wondering how well the .22's are working, hopefully as good as the .177.
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Magazines for the 25 cal aren't that good, the .177's work very good. I'm wondering how well the .22's are working, hopefully as good as the .177.
Wayne, my 22 mag would work fine for the first 4-5 pellets then stick up, would have to tap it to make it rotate to load the remainder. So yesterday I took it apart and did some judicious sanding/polishing with 1500 grit sand paper and a diamond file, then lubed the tension screw before i put it back together. Shot 4 full mags today with nary a hiccup.
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my .25 cal mag has never "stuck" or needed a tapping to get it to advance. It has worked pretty much "flawlessly" for all intent and purpose. My only issue with it is the size of the hole, and the need to load the first pellet from the front side.
I just feel it will be easier if I enlongate the cover hole, and make losding the magazine easier and less "fumbley"
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Magazines for the 25 cal aren't that good, the .177's work very good. I'm wondering how well the .22's are working, hopefully as good as the .177.
Wayne, my 22 mag would work fine for the first 4-5 pellets then stick up, would have to tap it to make it rotate to load the remainder. So yesterday I took it apart and did some judicious sanding/polishing with 1500 grit sand paper and a diamond file, then lubed the tension screw before i put it back together. Shot 4 full mags today with nary a hiccup.
That's what my 25 is doing too, many times I'll cock it and notice the mag isn't revolving and pull it out a little and hear it rotate, it does that with all the different pellets I've tried in it.
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I drilled a new hole in the back offset from the original to add a bit more tension to the spring, no more feeding issues.
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double post , sorry
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ok, so I've take the trigger assembly apart to determine if I can do some polishing of contact points. Hopefully some improvement can be made to the feel and weight of the second stage. Since I have not yet seen any good pics of the parts laid out, I took these to share with all who may be considering doing the same thing.
Removal of the Cocking Lever Pivot Pin
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/DAR%204_zpseqscryzu.jpg)
Pic showing Pivot Pin removed, and small shim (non factory part) used to reduce some of the floppy motion the Cocking Lever was experiencing. The shim was made from a blown burst disk.
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/DAR%203_zpsfkohgwnp.jpg)
Remove Trigger Pivot Pin and the Trigger slides out the bottom of the Trigger Assembly.
Note placement of the attached Spring. Also note the thin factory Shims on each side of the Trigger Blade.
Do not lose these, ... you will need them to prevent the trigger from being too wobbly.
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/DAR%209_zpskptssanp.jpg)
You must also remove the Pin that is just forward of the Trigger Pivot Pin.
This is to allow clearance for removal of the Sear Catch.
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/DAR%2010_zpswxoetwts.jpg)
Next remove the Sear Catch Pivot Pin, and remove the Sear Catch.
Be careful not to stretch the little springs.
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/DAR%2012_zpsrkl2uvmt.jpg)
Next remove the rear plug from the mono block and the Hammer Spring.
I dont have a pic of that, but it's pretty basic. The rear Plug just unscrews, and the trigger spring comes right out.
Next position the hammer so that You can see the Cocking Pin screwed into the Brass Bolt Body.
Remove this pin from the Brass Bolt Body using appropriate Allen Wrench. Loosen the Allen Screw locatedin the rear of to Hammer to allow the Sear Catch Pin to be removed from the Hammer. Remove the Sear Catch Pin and slide the Brass Bolt and the Hammer through the back of the mono block.
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/DAR%202_zpsvzmrtbge.jpg)
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/DAR%201_zpsxxxdwbhe.jpg)
Trigger Parts Orientation,
Now ready for a little detailed cleanup and polishing job of all mating contact surfaces
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/DAR%208_zpsf0gauxpa.jpg)
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/DAR%207_zps3lzmltk2.jpg)
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Ron, great write up and photos! Been waiting for someone to post pics of trigger assembly. Thanks. Keep us posted on your progress and results.
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I assume that the cap screw at the top of the trigger is not an adjustment point but just holds that block in place?
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I assume that the cap screw at the top of the trigger is not an adjustment point but just holds that block in place?
You assume correctly. That block will get polished on the face, as it is what engages the Sear for second stage.
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Ron have you measured the length of the barrel yet? My DAR seems to be shooting much more accurate with my cast pellets than my Mrod does.
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Ron have you measured the length of the barrel yet? My DAR seems to be shooting much more accurate with my cast pellets than my Mrod does.
Have not removed shroud or barrel yet. I think they may have used a gallon of locktite on it. 😒😱😞
Will try to get it apart today after it cools down some here.
Yeah, I'd say mine shoots at least as well as my Mrod too.
Pretty impressive performance considering the price point.
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Ron have you measured the length of the barrel yet?
Barrel is 17" from leade to crown.
I was fairly surprised to see how heavy the barrel is. It is .585 OD, and unchoked.
(I still have not checked the twist rate, sorry).
The TP is machined into the side of the barrel and measures .221
The barrel is sealed to the breech using a o-ring forward and aft of the transfer port.
On the muzzle end, the last 1" of barrel is .355 OD to allow for the slip-on Shroud Support. It does not have a traditional "Air Stripper". It is more of a Vented Shroud Support, that allows air flow between the barrel and the shroud.
As the pellet passes through the first baffle, it would basically be doing the same thing as a typical Air Stripper.
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Here' some more pics of the innards,
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/Airguns/reg%201_zpscaa5rybn.jpg)
The Regulator looks to be well built and is externally adjustable for output pressure.
I will be adjusting this for a little greater output pressure before reassembly. Unfortunately, I do not yet have a test rig yet for setting output pressure, so I wont know the actual pressure I change it to, and will just have to rely on chrony readings and shot strings. Maybe Bob will be able to apply some mathematical wizardry once I get those numbers to compare to the first shot strings.
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/Airguns/reg%202_zps3pfmuwfi.jpg)
The Plenum is a simple straight piece of anodized(?) aluminum.
It measures .830 ID and is 1.570 long
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/Airguns/DAR%202_zps0uwbuurm.jpg)
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/Airguns/DAR%203_zpskzio9ce4.jpg)
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Great work so far Ron, keep it coming brother...once you figure everything out, I want one too! That valve looks like a Cricket one...very similar. Nice work and great pictures too.
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I want to buy one and put a 13 c.i. Ninja bottle on the air tube. But I gotta finish my motorcycle project, first. Then again, I could wait until the .25 Gauntlet comes out. Bike may be finished by then..
I do like the DAR since it has a side lever, and the Gauntlet does not.
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Thanks for the pics of the internals.... It looks like the regulator fits inside the plenum a short distance, maybe 0.2"?.... That would result in a plenum volume of about 12 cc.... Do you have any idea how much volume there is inside the valve, or the back of the regulator, which would add to that plenum?.... That's pretty small for a .25 cal, IMO....
Bob
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Thanks for the pics of the internals.... It looks like the regulator fits inside the plenum a short distance, maybe 0.2"?.... That would result in a plenum volume of about 12 cc.... Do you have any idea how much volume there is inside the valve, or the back of the regulator, which would add to that plenum?.... That's pretty small for a .25 cal, IMO....
Bob
Yeah, I'd guess about 0.2 .
Unfortunately, I put the gun back together tonight before seeing this post, so I cant measure it right now.
I'll be shooting it tomorrow to test out my polish/lube job on he trigger, as well as my adjustment to the reg.
No doubt, I'll be taking it back apart after this weekends testing, so I'll try to get you those measurements next time it comes apart. I did feel the plenum was a tad small too, once I saw it.
Here's some picks of the valve before I put it back together.
Upon removal of the valve, I did find the Brass Pin Guide to be loose, as well as the Retaining Cap for the Poppet Spring (on the opposite end of the valve). I will be using some blue loctite on reassembly to prevent this happening again.
The exhaust port is pretty big, measuring .223 - .224 . Next time I have it apart,I will do a little Dremel work to radius the bottom of the port to the throat of the valve.
The valve slides into the monoblock, it i sealed with 2 o-rings, and is held in place with two indexing screws on the lower side. One screw doubles as the Stock Mounting Lug. This makes the port alignment to the monoblock a easy no-brainer. The port in the monoblock meas. .223, and the port in the barrel meas. .221
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/Airguns/valve%201_zpsdpkvnor9.jpg)
The hole on the "shoulder" of the valve is a pressure bleeder for Degassing. It has a grub screw plug.
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/Airguns/valve%203_zpssjatjjdc.jpg)
Nothing exotic going on inside, standard Poppet and Spring.
I will say, the Poppet Spring in this thing is SERIOUSLY STIFF ! ! ! (too stiff IMO), but we'll mess with that at a later time.
The Retainer Cap (valve inlet) has 4 (small) holes. I think they can be opened up a little more, which we'll also do later.
I did notice the Retainer Cap does not have any sort of pin/groove/shoulder/etc. to keep the Poppet Spring on center. I see this as a potential problem as it allows the Poppet Spring to go off-center, and thus, applying a side-load to the head of the Poppet.
This could be something that needs to be addressed in future models.
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/Airguns/valve%204_zpsgrlfuywx.jpg)
Here's a nice little feature,
The hammer tube in the monoblock, is "lined" with a hard plastic/delrin(?) sleeve. This prevents the steel hammer from touching the aluminum monoblock. Pretty cool, I think. No internal "marring" or damage to the monoblock, and very slippery slide for the hammer.
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/Airguns/valve%202_zps5hiyahqz.jpg)[/URL]
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Thanks for great pictures and excellent descriptions Ron !!! I wasn't even aware that this had a delrin(???) sleeve in it, that's pretty darned neat, you'd never need an MDS hammer on this one. I might add DO NOT DRY FIRE THIS GUN without air because through my experience of doing just that I damaged the brass bushing for the valve stem, I ended up removing the mushroomed part (I.D.) where the hammer hit it with a jewelers rat tail file. That actually happened soon after I bought the gun and hasn't been a problem since but it was still a PIA. All in all it really is a fantastic gun for the price, they need to be tinkered with though.
When I think about just how many non members (a lot) that read these threads on this forum it makes me wonder just how many of them buy these guns.
I might also add from your measurements it appears that the ports on this gun are already above being 85% of the bore, that also is really nice to know, it's something I never measured when basically I was more worried about sealing the gun up at the time, the 25's really do generate some great energy.
On my 177 the barrel port is .133 and it could probably be opened to .150 but for now I'm happy with it, it's slinging the 16 grain stuff very well.
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Ok, next installment,
So I did some minor polishing of all contact surfaces in the trigger group. Big improvement on making it feel smoother, but still very heavy second stage. I will be taking it apart again to do an even better polish job, and I will look for a lighter spring to install for the second stage.
While I had it apart, I adjusted the pressure regulator by 1/4 turn to increase the output pressure. I do not have a test rig set up, so this was a complete guess and I would only be able to test the results over the chrony.
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/Airguns/DAR%201_zpszhtxnvj1.jpg)
(Prior to me adjusting the regulator), it was pushing JSB 25.39gr at 885-890fps , and 33.95gr at 760-765fps with a 3000psi fill
After adjusting the regulator and reassembling the rifle on friday evening, I filled to 3000psi and shot the 33.95gr at 898-901fps. I loaded up the truck to meet the guys on Saturday morning, and left 3000psi in the gun.
Saturday morning, I set up a different chrony, and duplicated the same 900ish fps for 3 sets of 10 shots.
We got busy with several different guns and I set the gun aside for the rest of the day. I did not shoot it again until Sunday.
Now this part may be my ignorance of typical regulator behavior, or it may be something else (?), I dont know.
Sunday, I shot a few more 33.95gr at a 3000psi fill and found it had dropped about 100fps ! (?)
I found that strange since it had done 900 over 2 separate chrony's already.
Could this be what is referred to a the reg is " settling in " ? ? ?
I decided to start at a little higher pressure to better determine where we were coming off of the regulator.
Here are the results for both 25.39gr and 33.95gr (after adjusting the reg output).
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/Airguns/aaa%201_zpsdh1xpquz.jpg)
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae274/ronsnewemailis/Airguns/aaa%203_zpshklrvxpk.jpg)
By the time I got done with the chrony work, the winds had picked up to 13-15 mph, and I could see no sense in trying for more 50yd groups in that much wind. I'll see if conditions are better next weekend.
So can anyone here explain why I dropped 100fps after letting the rifle sit overnight ?
Is this the regulator "Settling in" ?
btw, I did not replace any of the o-rings upon reassembly. I used the original factory o-rings, and to my surprise,... No Leaks ! YAY !
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Ron, generally a new regulator will not shift downward in pressure, the obvious exception being that the adjustment screw self adjusted somehow. It's more likely to shift upward as the seal wears in against the valve seat. That is, it becomes indented or takes a compression set. What is happening is the spool (or piston if you prefer that term) is having to travel further before it meets the valve seat, thus the air pressure must build to a higher level to compress the spring by this additional amount.
Factors which may aggravate this are:
a. If the valve seat has a raised lip.
b. If the seal material is soft and/or prone to take a compression set.
c. If the rifle experiences a major temperature increase. For example, if the rifle was last fired at a modest temperature (70F) and then subsequently left in direct sunlight or a hot car, the plenum pressure increases and more forcefully presses the spool against the valve seat and deforms the seal material.
Therefore...
If this sort of "settling" has occurred with your rifle, you may need to bump up the hammer spring tension to bring the velocity back up to where it was. That is especially likely if you had adjusted the hammer strike to not be wasteful of air.
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Jason,
Thank you for the very I formative explanation. I am certainly not an expert on internal regulators.
(I've never taken one apart to see the internals), but will probably do so soon.
Judging from your explanation, I suppose the temperature may have had a factor, as well as the possibility of a soft seat.
The first time I got 900fps was in the evening at about 75 to 80 degrees. The following morning when I saw 900fps again it was about the same temp.
When I then set the gun aside in the rack, it did see so.e sunlight and the day did get up to maybe 90 to 95 degrees, so if it was directly in the sun, it would have gotten even hotter. Follow that with sitting through the night with whatever pressure it had climbed to.
So I suppose a seal may have changed shape under heat and pressure (?).
Also, I had already noted how incredibly stiff the poppet spring is inside the valve. Waaayyy stiffer than it should really need. So with a very stiff poppet spring AND increased reg output pressure, it stands to reason the need for more hammer strike.
But, then again, that would not explain the first two rounds of 900 fps. Hmmmmmm.
I do have an assortment pack of various springs. What do you think about me trying a lighter poppet spring in the valve, before trying to increase the hammer spring tension ?
If I get some time tonight, I may try to take the reg out and do some disassembly and home ed-u-ma-kate-shun 😜.
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Don’t waste your time with the valve spring. Even a very stiff one has very little effect compared to the air pressure holding the valve closed.
Do it with the hammer.
Sorry so brief, not much time.
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Don’t waste your time with the valve spring. Even a very stiff one has very little effect compared to the air pressure holding the valve closed.
Do it with the hammer.
Sorry so brief, not much time.
Aye aye Cap'n, will try it.
Thank you
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just a little update,
I've not had time yet to take the gun back apart, due to other obligations. Once I do, I will be trying Jason's suggestion of increasing the hammer spring tension. I will also be looking for a conical spring for the poppet to provide a straight tension/push for closing the poppet. Other owners have stated they already have a conical spring, and that it should help to prevent a broken or bent poppet head.
Earlier today, I learned that the other 4 rifles my group has ordered, has arrived and we will be testing them this coming weekend.
I guess I better get off my tail and get busy. The guys I shoot with will be expecting me to have this stuff all figured out.
They can be pretty brutal and find no greater pleasure than to pick on me and hurt my sensitive and tender feelings :'( ::) :P ;D ;D ;D ;D
Bwa-hahaha !
It will be very interesting to see how many of these next 4 rifles will have any (or all) of the leaking (or other) issues that some folks have already experienced.
I wish I had a trigger weight scale to measure trigger pull weight, but I don't own one. Maybe one of the guys do, and we can get some comparative numbers going on that area of interest too.
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Bring a bag of #117 Dura 90 o-rings and a set of hex keys with you, that should fix most if any issues they may have. Besides replacing the o-rings check that both ends of the valve assembly are tight, those two thing pretty much fixed my air leaks. I'm looking forward to hearing how things go, have fun!
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Just joined the group. I have a DAR 22. Knock on wood every thing is working good. Thanks to you guys I bit the bullet and bought one. For me it was a great deal. Been shooting it about a week and I love it.Thinking of giving it to my son and getting the 25. Holding back to see how the 22 holds up. I would be more inclined if I could get at least extra mags. Anyone been able to buy extra mags yet?
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Per a recent communication with Aim Sports, the mags did not come in from China as they were expecting. They said that the mags are currently on the slow boat, and should be available in about 3 to 4 more weeks. Nothing they can do to get them any faster from China.
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Ron the only other option would be Fedex like SPA does but that's much more expensive. It would be cost effective if a person ordered a dozen of them direct from China factory but that too is unknown right now. When SG sent me a Fedex return deal for my 25 I thought to myself, yeah and start over again, I don't think so. I should have told Ryan about my crack magazine too but didn't think about it at the time when I sent the email about the barrel band and corroded stuff.
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Bottle gun project!!
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Bottle gun project!!
all in due time ;) ;D 8)
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Great info, keep it going, I will need them for my yet to come 177 and 25
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I don't need a heck of a lot of shots myself cause I'll be using them for hunting but if I was where Ron was at a bottled version of the .25 would almost be necessary for ground squirrels because they're just so infested with them there.
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Looks really interesting as a starting point for a project gun. Subscribed!
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Ron, just a heads up to check the crown if any of them are not grouping well. This is what I just found with my .25 barrel:
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=6019)
Looks like I'll be taking about 1/8" off the end and recrowning. Sadly this sort of incompetence is par for the course with cheap rifles. I have seen crown defects with multiple Crosman and SPA barrels. A notable exception has been the QB barrels.
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Thank you for the heads up Jason.
So far mine are grouping extraordinarily well, (once I get them to hold air).
I will certainly check my barrels when I pull them back apart.
I see a lot of potential in these guns, and feel once the "bugs" are worked out, we will be seeing some impressive results.
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Oh good, it sounds like yours must be better. I suppose since mine held air, this was the universe's way of balancing things out. Perhaps this will fare better...
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=6020)
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Two of the three I was sent held air for a day, then woosh out the vent hole behind the front regulator o-ring. I hope yours holds up for you.
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Mines still holding air just fine, you guys need to get you some new #117 Duro90 o-rings on those regulators!
I did some pellet testing this afternoon for accuracy and over the chrony. I'm thrilled that it really seems to like the good ole Benji Domed pellets! It did quite well with the Eunjin 35.8 grain pellets also, and those averaged 788 fps for an almost 50 fpe!
Pellet Weight Shot 1 Shot 2 Shot 3 Shot 4 Shot 5 Avg FPS Avg FPE Spread
JSB King 25.39 886.00 884.00 879.00 886.00 882.00 883.40 44.01 7.00
H&N FFT 19.91 950.00 944.00 951.00 939.00 949.00 946.60 39.62 12.00
H&N Grizzly 31.00 809.00 804.00 803.00 796.00 788.00 800.00 44.07 21.00
Benj Domed 27.80 860.00 858.00 852.00 854.00 853.00 855.40 45.18 8.00
Eunjin 35.80 792.00 788.00 789.00 788.00 785.00 788.40 49.42 7.00
I will say the .25 is quite loud! I have a LDC Adapter coming from my friend in Serbia, it should be here in about 2 weeks. I also reached out to David (Rocker1) with the dimensions of the baffles to see if he can gin up some of his special baffles to see how well they will quiet the beast. I know he's got other more pressing things going on at the moment, but once he has that back to normal, I'm hoping he can work his magic!
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Well, with the barrel all fixed up, I was excited to get it back together to see how it groups now.
On shot #2...
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=6021)
...the shroud ejected its guts all over the yard. I spent an hour hunting the parts and found the baffles and even the small retaining ring but the end cap is nowhere to be found.
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=6022)
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Yike, that's not good. Is that due to pellet hitting shroud?
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No, I don't think the pellet clipped anything. It hit within 3/16" of the first shot at 25 yards and the slightest clipping will send a pellet wildly off course. Also, I've noticed the first shot usually sails a bit high as if there is some regulator creep so shot 2 being a smidge low is what I expected.
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Holy &^^&, any idea what caused it? It doesn't look like any of the baffles or the retainer disc is damaged from being hit by a pellet. How much did you shorten the barrel and did that effect how that little square looking piece sat on the end of the barrel?
Interestingly, my .177 had a small o-ring between the lip on the barrel and that little square thingy, but the .25 did not... Not sure if it needs it or not, or what it's supposed to do there...
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Yeah, the anodizing is untouched on all the baffles and retaining ring. It just gave out under the pressure.
I only took 1/8" off the barrel, and the way the square piece fits against the first baffle, that didn't change any relationships to the retaining ring or end cap.
Mine didn't have the O-ring either.
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You guys are making it very hard to not buy one of these.....I am thoroughly enjoying your efforts.
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I had the opportunity to spend some time with all 5 of the rifles Ron had brought to our group shoot. My first impression of the rifle was wow, nice and short, lightweight and looked good. I shot the rifle and was impressed with the accuracy although yes the trigger was very heavy. For me the trigger was not as much of an issue as the slop in the sidelever. Ron disassembled "his" rifle in front of me at the table and saw some good things about the design. The QC is obviously very poor, oring grooves shallowed by teflon tape, sharp burrs on machined parts. The regulator looked well made, the valve poppet is wrong material and spring is ridiculously stiff. I think for the price point the gun could be a great tinker project if one does not go overboard on improvements. In my opinion the gun may be best left to lower power levels with the focus on the valve, sidelever and some smoothness to the trigger. The design really is good, has all the components to make a great field gun, just executed very poorly and with horrid quality control. I'm willing to bet these guns will be hit of miss as they have signs of tooling that is worn. Parts are run and run with nobody to adjust for tooling wear.
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And the icing on the cake.
From the other room...
PSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
The sound of air finding its equilibrium.
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Jason, pack it up and send it to me.... ::) …. I like a challenge.... ;) ;D :-\
Bob
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I don't own another PCP that's any easier to work on than these guns, they're super simple to work on and replacing the reg and airtube o rings is basically a 15 minute job if you're savy to the gun. I used 70duro o rings on both ends of the airtube and 90duro on the regulator, both my guns have had quite a few rounds through them as well as taking them both apart and reassembling to adjust the reg, hammer etc. I'm still using the same o rings I installed with no leaks since.
here's a five shot group using my cast pellets at 40 yards
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1816/44118276991_81eabd34c5_b.jpg)
not too shabby for a $300 gun
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Jason, pack it up and send it to me.... ::) …. I like a challenge.... ;) ;D :-\
Haha, I know you do ;D
Already replaced the O-rings. Easy as pie. I just wanted to see how the originals would fail...sure enough, classic extrusion failure. The high side O-ring on the reg squeezed through to the cavity where the bleeder hole is located, tearing it. The original O-rings are soft. Feels like 50 durometer. They didn't stand a chance.
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Oh, and my wife found the shroud end cap in the yard.
After dark.
With a flashlight.
In an area I scanned at least 10 times when visibility was good.
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Oh, and my wife found the shroud end cap in the yard.
After dark.
With a flashlight.
In an area I scanned at least 10 times when visibility was good.
That’s hilarious. Congratulations!
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Well, with the barrel all fixed up, I was excited to get it back together to see how it groups now.
On shot #2...
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=6021)
...the shroud ejected its guts all over the yard. I spent an hour hunting the parts and found the baffles and even the small retaining ring but the end cap is nowhere to be found.
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=6022)
Ok, so now we have another point of concern regarding the QC.
I will be going to Aim Sports on Friday morning to speak with them.
I will certainly be adding this to the list of items to be discussed.
Jason, Thank you for sharing this.
I will let you know what I find out.
I had the opportunity to spend some time with all 5 of the rifles Ron had brought to our group shoot. My first impression of the rifle was wow, nice and short, lightweight and looked good. I shot the rifle and was impressed with the accuracy although yes the trigger was very heavy. For me the trigger was not as much of an issue as the slop in the sidelever. Ron disassembled "his" rifle in front of me at the table and saw some good things about the design. The QC is obviously very poor, oring grooves shallowed by teflon tape, sharp burrs on machined parts. The regulator looked well made, the valve poppet is wrong material and spring is ridiculously stiff. I think for the price point the gun could be a great tinker project if one does not go overboard on improvements. In my opinion the gun may be best left to lower power levels with the focus on the valve, sidelever and some smoothness to the trigger. The design really is good, has all the components to make a great field gun, just executed very poorly and with horrid quality control. I'm willing to bet these guns will be hit of miss as they have signs of tooling that is worn. Parts are run and run with nobody to adjust for tooling wear.
Dana, It was great sharing some trigger time with You, Terry, and "The Gang" again. That BBQ was FANTASTIC Too ! ! !
I will make sure to include all of the above discrepancies we are seeing, when I speak with Aim Sports this Friday.
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Oh, and my wife found the shroud end cap in the yard.
After dark.
With a flashlight.
In an area I scanned at least 10 times when visibility was good.
And??? Any signs of damage or anything that would give an indication as to why it blew? I wonder is the thread depth is not enough to securely hold it together?
Ron, Looking forward to what you find out from Aim Sports. I corresponded with Ed yesterday via e-mail about the 2 stripped set screw holes on the shroud retainer on my new .25, and asked about getting a cone shaped spring for the valve. Apparently they are expecting a shipment of parts tomorrow. Let them know I'm very happy with the service I received from Ryan and the parts he sent has my .177 working perfectly!
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Shipped my 25 back to Aim yesterday (22 still working great). They should get by 9/6. Hope they get on it fast and fix with the new and correct parts. Still think the 25 will make a great coon and coyot gun.
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Paul, I put calipers to the parts last night to see if I could tell anything about what happened. Of course this was after the parts separated so I don’t know how well they fit originally…although clearly something wasn’t right for it to blow out like that. With that said, the end cap (thread OD) had a consistent measurement at several places around its circumference and visually the threads seemed well formed so I don’t think it was damaged.
However the tube (thread ID) measurements varied quite a bit around the circumference. There was more than 0.010” variation and the threads did not appear to be as well formed but that’s harder for me to ascertain than external threads. Granted, part of this variation may be because the thin wall tubing was “ovaling” as I attempted to work the calipers. I tried to keep the pressure to a minimum and measured multiple times so even if my measurements were not precise, I think I was at least getting a clue that something was amiss with the threads.
Then it occurred to me that I should compare the threads on the other end…those that secure the tube to the collar at the receiver. Those had never blown apart so they should be undamaged. And indeed there were similar indications on that end, just not as severe. Since those threads looked a bit better, I turned the tube around and reassembled everything, using a liberal amount of threadlocker on the retaining ring and end cap. Also based on your comment, I added an O-ring between the barrel shoulder and the square sleeve, figuring that would help alleviate any stress that might arise from differing thermal expansion rates.
Anyway, after the threadlocker had cured for a few hours, I dry fired a few times and it held. I’m skeptical that it is a sufficient long term fix but I’m back in business for now. Hopefully I can put a few groups on paper this evening to see if the barrel work has improved things.
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Received DAR 25 yesterday
nicely packaged, no damage.
White scuff under forearm
crappy magazine, had to dissasemble, grind the pi
aired up and fired ten JSB 25.4's
first shot 880. Progressively dimished to
860 for the last three.
No problems yet but am going to replace orings before progressing any further.
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Jason, Maybe that's why there was so must thread lock on there to begin with! Also, be careful dry firing it, Wayne said he damaged the brass sleeve the poppet slide in when he dry fired his. He was able to fix it, but he said it had damaged it initially.
Good to hear you are back in business. Had you changed the setting of the regulator prior to the end cap blowing off? Just curious as what was the initial cause? These things are still pretty much a mystery, but experiences of all those on GTA who have one sure sheds some light on the various things to be looking out for!
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Received DAR 25 yesterday
nicely packaged, no damage.
White scuff under forearm
crappy magazine, had to dissasemble, grind the pi
aired up and fired ten JSB 25.4's
first shot 880. Progressively dimished to
860 for the last three.
No problems yet but am going to replace orings before progressing any further.
The steady drop is probably your regulator o-ring fixing to blow out! LOL! JK... Mine does the same thing, I'm sure the regulator has to settle in a bit before we start to see more consistency.
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The shroud on mine didn't have any thread locker on it to begin with but it was very tight on there from the factory, I've never had any clipping from either gun at all. I haven't taken the shroud apart on my .177 yet but I'm sure I will eventually. My .22 will be here tomorrow and to me it only makes sense to replace the airtube and regulator o rings before I air it up.
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Hi Paul, I had not changed the regulator. Had not even accessed it yet. However last night after the high side regulator o-ring extruded out and evacuated the cylinder, I pulled it. It was marked “14.6” and the jam nut was nice and tight so there was no sign that its setpoint would have shifted.
Oh regarding the dry firing I mentioned, it was with the cylinder pressurized so as not to overdrive the poppet. I don’t think there was any risk of it getting damaged.
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Wayne, yeah I think it’s sage advice to just go ahead and swap the regulator O-rings straight away. I chose not to just so I could confirm the failure was by way of extrusion. That soft factory O-ring didn’t stand a chance at 3000psi. It looked like black silly putty squeezed out of the groove over into the vent chamber.
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Rohm, the slightly higher velocity on shot 1 matches mine. It’s probably due to regulator creep. As some regs do, it may break in and stop doing it.
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I'm looking forward to a positive and productive day at Aim Sports tomorrow. I have a good feeling about it.
I spent today taking my gun completely apart, and taking notes (2 pages worth), for each individual piece regarding functional discrepancies that mine and everyone else here has been experiencing.
Sure hope they've got some good strong coffee in the machine ! ;) ;D
Not too sure how long I'll be there, and I MAY head to my permission straight from there.
Dove season opener is Saturday, so I may not be around here till Sunday or Monday. We'll see how it goes.
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Hi Paul, I had not changed the regulator. Had not even accessed it yet. However last night after the high side regulator o-ring extruded out and evacuated the cylinder, I pulled it. It was marked “14.6” and the jam nut was nice and tight so there was no sign that its setpoint would have shifted.
Oh regarding the dry firing I mentioned, it was with the cylinder pressurized so as not to overdrive the poppet. I don’t think there was any risk of it getting damaged.
Another thing I'll do with mine before I air it up is open up the regulator 1 turn probably and see where it is, I'd like to get about 40fpe from it for shooting the 217-30-FN boat tails. ;D
If you dry fire these guns it mushrooms the brass bush that the stem goes through, you can try it but that's what happened with my .25, I used a jeweler's rat tail file to clean mine up and all is good.
I'm looking forward to a positive and productive day at Aim Sports tomorrow. I have a good feeling about it.
I spent today taking my gun completely apart, and taking notes (2 pages worth), for each individual piece regarding functional discrepancies that mine and everyone else here has been experiencing.
Sure hope they've got some good strong coffee in the machine ! ;) ;D
Not too sure how long I'll be there, and I MAY head to my permission straight from there.
Dove season opener is Saturday, so I may not be around here till Sunday or Monday. We'll see how it goes.
Ron I wasn't aware that you personally purchased one, which caliber did you choose ?
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Wayne, We have five of the .25 cal in my group of shooters.
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Wayne, oh, so on yours the hammer smacked the brass bushing despite pressure in the cylinder? Any chance the pressure had fallen substantially below the setpoint? I know mine is an air hog so it wouldn’t take many dry fires before that happened.
I had dry fired about 10 times so I completely stripped mine down last night and inspected the brass bushing and it looked fine and the valve stem moves smoothly in it. I also could not make out any signs on the end of the hammer that they might have contacted at some point.
There are several other things that come to mind that could explain why ours behaved differently:
1. My regulator setpoint may be higher. It’s marked 14.6. Presumably that means 146 bar (approx. 2100psi) although it seems weird that they put a decimal in it. But mine is making less energy than yours so that is unlikely.
2. My hammer spring might be at less preload. The end cap behind mine was flush with the outside edge of the receiver (i.e. the least possible preload). Was yours perhaps dialed in a bit?
3. My brass bushing was threaded in fully. I recall someone saying theirs was backed out which moves it closer to the hammer and puts it at higher risk of being hit. Ron also found one where it would thread in so far that it begins obstructing the exhaust port…so presumably others may not be threaded deep enough. Mine stops right at the edge of the exhaust port.
There are a few other fringe possibilities that also come to mind, like maybe our valve stems are different lengths. I didn’t measure it but I want to say my stem protruded about 3/16” beyond the brass bushing. It’s unusual to get more than about 1/8” of lift (unless the system is not pressurized) so that should be plenty.
Well, that was a longer reply than I intended…just trying to build an understanding of what all issues folks are running into so we will know how to prevent them.
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Well guys not only the DARs are having o ring problems. Bought a refurb synrod 25 to play with while I am waiting for my DAR 25 to go through AIMs warranty repair prosse. Got it yesterday. Zeroing the scope and poofff. Blew an o-ring.
Earlier shot and adjusted with some great advise from the Maurader forum and could only get 30 FPS with JSB 34s . Man I sure am missing my powerful 25 Dynamic
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Jason it was my own fault I dry fired it without air.
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I emailed Ed today, mentioned the scuffed stock, bad magaziine, requested cone spring.
His response was that they are no longer servicing the .25's that have problems.
I have two choices, send it back to SG for full refund or send it to him and I will get a no extra charge Gen 2 replacement next year in the second quarter.
Done, I'll be waiting for my Gen 2 for the $199.00 I invested. Meantime, 22 and 25 flash are on the way for fun.
If the DAR 177 isn't under the same on repair I might order a 177 as I have none and Wayne's is marvelous. Afte.r all I already have the o rings, lol.
Received DAR 25 yesterday
nicely packaged, no damage.
White scuff under forearm
crappy magazine, had to dissasemble, grind the pi
aired up and fired ten JSB 25.4's
first shot 880. Progressively dimished to
860 for the last three.
No problems yet but am going to replace orings before progressing any further.
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This is the actual text from Ed. I am looking forward to the Gen 2
At this time we are halting further repair and sales of the .25 rifles. We are offering two solutions to issues with defective or damaged units. 1. Return the item to Sportsman's Guide for a full refund. 2. Send the item back to us to be added to a waiting list for the Gen 2 variant which we expect by 2nd quarter 2019. The Gen 2 upgrade will not incur additional cost to you
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Billy, good that they are taking care of the issues either way. My DAR177 and DAR25 will be here tomorrow, so I know if something is wrong at least there is hope next year, just a long wait.
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Guys,
As I sit here typing this post, I am sitting with the R&D dept. of DAR.
We are having a VERY productive meeting discussing ALL of the QC issues that many of us have been experiencing with these guns. I am very impressed with the reception I am receiving, and I can confidently say we "Have their ear". They are fully committed to making these guns right, and Customer Service is absolutely their top priority. These guys want their product to be well received, top quality, and they want to be known as committed to their customers.
I have been assured these problem guns WILL be addressed to correct all the issues for all guns that have already been purchased.
Ok, so I'm literally in the middle of this meeting right now. Got to get back to the business of addressing the problems and getting them corrected.
Stay tuned !
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Guys,
As I sit here typing this post, I am sitting with the R&D dept. of DAR.
We are having a VERY productive meeting discussing ALL of the QC issues that many of us have been experiencing with these guns. I am very impressed with the reception I am receiving, and I can confidently say we "Have their ear". They are fully committed to making these guns right, and Customer Service is absolutely their top priority. These guys want their product to be well received, top quality, and they want to be known as committed to their customers.
I have been assured these problem guns WILL be addressed to correct all the issues for all guns that have already been purchased.
Ok, so I'm literally in the middle of this meeting right now. Got to get back to the business of addressing the problems and getting them corrected.
Stay tuned !
Wonderful to hear that they are behind their products, and wonderful work from you for taking this up!
I am waiting for delivery tomorrow for my DAR177 and DAR25. Fedex just sent me email for expecting the delivery. I am sitting here fingers crossed.
I might just as well order a DAR22 to complete the set, based on the encouraging news.
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Ron,
What's the rational for not repairing or supplying repair parts for the .25. Will they still supply repair parts for the .177 and .22? I had e-mailed Ed earlier this week about getting a couple parts for my .25 and he didn't say anything about them no longer providing support for the .25, so this was a shocker! Also, ask about the availability of spare magazines!
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I guess I will have to wait till Monday to find out is going to happen to my 25. It’s on the way to AIM now. My 22 is still shooting great. Hope they got some mags in the shipment that was due today.
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As long as they can truly deliver on the gen 2, I do not feel too bad. The worst would be that I have to wait for a few months. Hope at least one of the caliber will work for me
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nuthing personal but that is a long row to hoe with me... with what I have read... I feel all safety related tolerances need checked... every rifle...with the quality of tolerances on the valves... with needing taped... it gets me worried when so many mistakes show up...
Just being totally honest as a consumer...
Heck a company as large as crosman had to move barrel production back here to fix their production problem...
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I will get both 177 and 25 tomorrow. If one of them works well then I am OK to wait. Otherwise it would feel bad.
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Ed told me no more parts or service for any of the DAR guns. I have mine boxed up with a RMA from DAR waiting for a Gen2. Jack, Jack, no take backs.
quote author=PaulT58 link=topic=146178.msg1504044#msg1504044 date=1535749065]
Ron,
What's the rational for not repairing or supplying repair parts for the .25. Will they still supply repair parts for the .177 and .22? I had e-mailed Ed earlier this week about getting a couple parts for my .25 and he didn't say anything about them no longer providing support for the .25, so this was a shocker! Also, ask about the availability of spare magazines!
[/quote]
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I was given the option to send my .25 back as well, I knew that if I did I'd probably be lucky to get another as good as I got for quite a while so I chose to hang on to mine. It must be something inherent to the 25 cals is causing problems and I think that it could be more than just the regulator and leaking poppets. I'm kind of thinking maybe they'll eventually do something different with the magazines on them because I'm not the only one with a cracked 25 magazine. I predict that they may make the gen2's 8 shot instead of 10 myself but I could be wrong.
I did get my .22 today and the only thing I've done so far is just look at it but it won't be long and I'll replace the o rings in the airtube. I did notice how nice the stock was compared to my 25&22, the finish is better with no bad blemishes on it at all. Again there's another bunch of hot weather coming up again so if I do get out soon with it, it will be early in the morning, I mainly want to get it shooting like I want it an then sight it in for the time being. I'm sure that I'll be doing some chrony testing with it this weekend though because I'd really like to shoot the BBT slugs from it comfortably.
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This is the actual text from Ed. I am looking forward to the Gen 2
At this time we are halting further repair and sales of the .25 rifles. We are offering two solutions to issues with defective or damaged units. 1. Return the item to Sportsman's Guide for a full refund. 2. Send the item back to us to be added to a waiting list for the Gen 2 variant which we expect by 2nd quarter 2019. The Gen 2 upgrade will not incur additional cost to you
Seeee, ... I TOLLLDDDD You Guys, ...
I had a very productive day today, with the R&D dept. ! ! ! ;) ;D ;) ;D ;) ;D
Ok so "technically" ;D, (as a Moderator here 8)) ... I'm "obligated",
(and sworn to uphold on my 4th grade, dead hamsters grave :o :o :o), ...
... to put on my "MMU", .. (Magic Moderator Underwear) , ...
and point out rule # 15, ...
Or I risk suffering of the Unspeakable Rath of Thor ::) ;) :P ;D
BUT, in this case , and since it is intended for benefit all those who have purchased these rifles,
I think We'll let this one slide this time, ;) ;) ;)
Hahaha.
I'm very pleased with the outstanding Customer Service, and progress we accomplished at Aim Sports today.
I am confident this company is fully committed to making honest, honorable and reasonable offers of compensation,
to everyone who has already purchased these rifles.
That's not too bad, in my book ! ! !
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I'm going to keep my .25, I've got it the way I want it right now, I've actually been neglecting it since my last 5 shot string trying some cast pellets and doing a little hunting, I topped it off after the last time that I used it and it's right where I left it.
I've since been having a lot of fun with my 177, that rifle is unreal in the accuracy department as well and I think it's going to be married to both the JSB Monsters and Beast's !
I got my .22 yesterday and it looks great plus I put the required BunaN o rings in it plus I opened the regulator an entire turn. It had the teflon tape in the o ring at the regulated end of the airtube but none anywhere else like I've seen(my .25 was loaded with tape). I took ten shots with it, 5 with the 30grain bbt's and 5 with Beeman 21.14 grain. It's doing the best with the Beemans right now but it won't be long before I'll be getting my new NOE mold for the 22 cal pellets.
I see that on Sportsmans Guide website they still have the 25's for sale ???
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I see that on Sportsmans Guide website they still have the 25's for sale ???
I just checked SG this morning, not only are they still for sale, the price went back up to $287.99! They still don't have the magazines listed...
I have not heard back from Ed, so I have no idea at this point if he's going to offer an RMA or send me parts. If he offers an RMA, I may just accept and wait for a Gen 2 model. I guess I'll wait and see what he offers.
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Went to get DAR22 only to find the price is up. Oh well.
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Wow I ordered my .22 in the nick of time, glad I didn't put it off longer, that's a $70 difference.
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Another tuning update. Last night I deburred and smoothed everything...the hammer, bolt, valve stem and bushing, valve spring ends, hammer spring ends, and all the holes in the receiver that can shred O-rings.
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=6023)
I also gutted the trigger group and polished up the contact surfaces:
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=6024)
Reassembling the trigger group was tedious. It is indeed much like a ship in a bottle. Besides smoothing the parts, I swapped out the sear spring for a softer one (the trigger spring stayed as is). I also added an M3 washer on either side of the sear to keep it from scrubbing the side walls of the trigger frame. That part was especially fun...coaxing two washers and the sear into alignment with the hole way up in the trigger frame.
It was worth it though. Previously it was about 4 pounds of stick/slip insanity and now it's just over a pound and buttery smooth all the way through.
I also wanted to back off the hammer strike because it was wasting air. Nothing fancy yet, just tinkering with spring length and preload. But before cutting the factory spring, I decided to check my Cool Whip Spring Medley and lucked out and found a candidate.
original: 0.475" OD x 1.75" L x 0.059" wire
replacement: 0.475" OD x 1.35" L x 0.062" wire
A little twisting on the end cap to adjust preload and I was on the velocity knee with a noticeably softer report.
Altogether it seems to be responding to mods quite well. I haven't shot it much yet due to the weather but here's 5 quick shots at 30 yards.
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=6025)
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Looks like you're doing a fantastic job on that DAR25 there Jason! I always deburr the ends of springs cause they do gouge into things. The whole inside of my trigger assembly was loaded with salt on mine, it really was a mess. I've since gotten screws for it. Even the trigger adjustment screw was seized up out of the box. The trigger guard was welded in from the salt and that in itself was quite a job getting out of there, luckily I didn't damage it any. My .22 and .177 are clean as a whistle in comparison. I think the .22 is going to be a very nice gun, now I need to search around for a scope to put on it. I do have a CP scope that I can mount on it, it's only a 3-9X but heck that'll get me by until I get something better for it.
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Thank you, sir! I'm glad to hear your .177 and .22 are working well. This .25 has been a challenge.
I just popped outside to try it on the 43 yard target. Considering I've been up for 30 hours and the crosshairs are moving to the beat of the caffeine drum, I think this rifle is going to work out.
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=6026)
Regarding the stuff on the trigger group, on mine there was some translucent crusty material that they slathered on the screws which then squeezed out onto the surrounding areas. I'm guessing it's some sort of adhesive because it's unlike any threadlocker I've seen. A couple of solvents I tried (mineral spirits and acetone) would not cut it but fortunately I was able to flake it off with the edge of an old gift card.
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Gertrude let me try out his .25 last weekend. I was STACKING Benji Domes @ 25 yards.
IMO, if I owned one that had issues, I'd be sending it back and patiently waiting for the upgraded version.
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I see that on Sportsmans Guide website they still have the 25's for sale ???
I just checked SG this morning, not only are they still for sale, the price went back up to $287.99! They still don't have the magazines listed...
I have not heard back from Ed, so I have no idea at this point if he's going to offer an RMA or send me parts. If he offers an RMA, I may just accept and wait for a Gen 2 model. I guess I'll wait and see what he offers.
Paul,
It's a holiday weekend. Give Ed a call on Tuesday and I'm sure he will take care of you.
SG is to stop selling the rifles on Tuesday.
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I was able to take the .25 on a short pesting session this morning.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=147816 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=147816) WARNING: graphic content in the hunting gate...err, no not really
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I expected to see something other than a house fly ;D that's some great shooting indeed.
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I see that on Sportsmans Guide website they still have the 25's for sale ???
I just checked SG this morning, not only are they still for sale, the price went back up to $287.99! They still don't have the magazines listed...
I have not heard back from Ed, so I have no idea at this point if he's going to offer an RMA or send me parts. If he offers an RMA, I may just accept and wait for a Gen 2 model. I guess I'll wait and see what he offers.
Paul,
It's a holiday weekend. Give Ed a call on Tuesday and I'm sure he will take care of you.
SG is to stop selling the rifles on Tuesday.
Thanks Ron! I hope he will send the parts, I don't really want to return the rifle and wait fo the next generation. I'll get one in .22 when the next gen is released. I already have some baffles and an adapter for a LDC coming foe the DAR25, so I'd prefer to just repair this one and keep it!
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Wayne, thank you, sir!
Paul, will you remind me what part(s) you are needing? Conical valve spring?
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I never did check my 22 to see if it's got the conical spring but I know the 25 and 177 that I've got don't have the conical spring ??? On the 25 the last time I had it apart I did deburr the ends of the valve spring when it was apart, I haven't done that to either of the other ones. I almost hate to even take them apart when they're all shooting good like they are but eventually I probably will because I do like to tinker with these guns. I'm also thinking about sending my barrel end plug to David (Rocker1) to see if he might be able to make me an LDC like the one I have on the Prod for it, I have no doubt that will cut way down on the report for the .25.
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Wayne, thank you, sir!
Paul, will you remind me what part(s) you are needing? Conical valve spring?
Yes, I want to get a conical valve spring and the collar the shroud attaches to that sits next to the breech. On the collar of my .25, 2 of the 3 screw holes are stripped and it just spins on the barrel. If I could get these parts I wouldn't need to have it replaced, everything else is working fine.
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I never did check my 22 to see if it's got the conical spring but I know the 25 and 177 that I've got don't have the conical spring ??? On the 25 the last time I had it apart I did deburr the ends of the valve spring when it was apart, I haven't done that to either of the other ones. I almost hate to even take them apart when they're all shooting good like they are but eventually I probably will because I do like to tinker with these guns. I'm also thinking about sending my barrel end plug to David (Rocker1) to see if he might be able to make me an LDC like the one I have on the Prod for it, I have no doubt that will cut way down on the report for the .25.
Wayne, I sent David the dimensions of the baffles that go inside the shroud, he's going to see if he can make some with his design that will fit in the DAR25. I think they will quiet it down much better than the baffles that come in them. I also have an LDC adapter coming from a buddy who make them, hopefully he was able to get it right with the dimensions I sent him. The combination of Rocker1 baffles in the shroud and a Rocker1 LDC attached to the shroud should make the .25 as quiet as the .177! This is the reason I'm not wanting to return the .25, I have new parts coming for it and want to test them before I have to give up the rifle.
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I've always wanted one of those mini lathes so I could make things like that collar you're talking about Paul. I had a chance to buy a used small mill for $500 but turned it down last year.
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Paul, okay did you manage to separate the collar from the barrel? The way I’m picturing it based on “it just spins on the barrel” suggests the grub screws may have cut a trench in the barrel and the collar is trapped.
I might end up with a spare collar...thus my interest.
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Paul, okay did you manage to separate the collar from the barrel? The way I’m picturing it based on “it just spins on the barrel” suggests the grub screws may have cut a trench in the barrel and the collar is trapped.
I might end up with a spare collar...thus my interest.
Yes, I did get it apart. There were no trenches in the barrel from the grub screws rubbing. All three were loose, but only one of them would actually tighten and hold. But that one grub screw is not enough to actually hold the shroud secure and stop it from turning.
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10-4. I’ll stay in touch and if I end up with a spare, it’s yours.
If memory serves, the grub screws in that collar are M3 just like those in the barrel band. It has a tiny 1.5mm hex recess which is not very forgiving at all…if the tolerances of either the screw or the wrench are off by just the slightest amount, the head will strip out so easily. Worse still if you’re having to break threadlocker. Mine were okay for now but if need be, I’ll replace them with ones that have a better formed hex recess or drill and tap for M4 grubs.
I went ahead and replaced the ones in the barrel band. I noticed they were going in slightly under flush with the surface and I wanted to be sure there was 100% thread engagement with the full thickness of the band. Aluminum is just too easy to strip out so I used some that were 2mm longer. They stand proud from the surface slightly so I might file them slightly for a better look & feel. I also added a 3rd screw at the 6 o’clock position. The band is much more solidly secured to the fill assembly now.
Just wanted to share those details in case you want to incorporate any of it into yours to help avoid future issues.
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Not complaining but I wonder how come they made the barrels on these so thick ???
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Paul,
Let me see if I can help. I'll be talking to Aim Sports again very soon.
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Not complaining but I wonder how come they made the barrels on these so thick ???
Wayne,
I think it was an intentional design factor, so that the gun would not just "Float away",
in the event that anyone filled it with Helium ?
I dunno, .. just guessing here, ;) ;D 8)
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Ron have you heard anymore news about what else Dynamic might be coming out with?
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Ron have you heard anymore news about what else Dynamic might be coming out with?
From what I understand, Yes, there will be more models coming in the future.
I do not know the details on any of those yet...
..but I think there might be another model currently on "the drawing board".
I know these current QC issues were quite an unexpected and unfortunate surprise to them.
They are trying to do the right thing, step up to the plate, satisfy everyone in a reasonable manner, and correct these issues from repeating themselves. Naturally, they don't want to go through the same problems a second time around, when bringing a new product to market.
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I'm glad they're going to keep pursuing these guns because they indeed have a lot of potential.
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10-4. I’ll stay in touch and if I end up with a spare, it’s yours.
If memory serves, the grub screws in that collar are M3 just like those in the barrel band. It has a tiny 1.5mm hex recess which is not very forgiving at all…if the tolerances of either the screw or the wrench are off by just the slightest amount, the head will strip out so easily. Worse still if you’re having to break threadlocker. Mine were okay for now but if need be, I’ll replace them with ones that have a better formed hex recess or drill and tap for M4 grubs.
I went ahead and replaced the ones in the barrel band. I noticed they were going in slightly under flush with the surface and I wanted to be sure there was 100% thread engagement with the full thickness of the band. Aluminum is just too easy to strip out so I used some that were 2mm longer. They stand proud from the surface slightly so I might file them slightly for a better look & feel. I also added a 3rd screw at the 6 o’clock position. The band is much more solidly secured to the fill assembly now.
Just wanted to share those details in case you want to incorporate any of it into yours to help avoid future issues.
Thank you Jason! Hopefully, Aim will come through for me and I'll get some new parts for the .25 and have it as nice as my .177!
Paul,
Let me see if I can help. I'll be talking to Aim Sports again very soon.
Thank you Ron! I hope they decide to send parts, both are easy fixes that will get the .25 where it needs to be!
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Well fellas, I'm just tickled pink by how this .25 cal is shooting. I dialed in a few clicks of windage yesterday to fine tune the 43 yard zero (after greasing the house fly) and then put it away. Today after work I wanted to check for any signs of regulator creep or zero shift and it just sent the first pellet right through the center of the aspirin-sized red bullseye. Next shot clipped the red. That was the last two pellets in the magazine so I decided to stop while there was a big smile on my face. Accounting for the windage adjustment, that's sub-MoA for 6 shots at 43 yards with the buttstock shouldered, not on bags. This thing is sweet.
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=6029)
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Jason,
That's sure to put a smile on your face.
These guns do show a LOT of potential. I feel they are kind of a budget "diamonds in the rough" that benefit greatly with a little knowledgeable and experienced tinkering. So far, I have been focusing on the unfortunate QC issues, and have not spent any real time tuning or tinkering yet. Hopefully we have identified all of the problem areas, and can get them coming out of the box soon with similar performance. I'm looking very forward to seeing what your 'smithing skills will produce.
What are your current velocities and shot counts looking like ?
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Ron, I haven’t run a full string since the rebuild but I’ll get that for you as soon as we get a break in the rain from this tropical storm.
At this point I can only say that by using the shorter spring and adjusting to the knee, efficiency is much better than stock but nothing great. Limiting factors are the small plenum and a middling barrel length (approx. 17”) so I’m probably going to keep it around the 45fpe level. I may see about fashioning an SSG but seeing how it’s stacking JSB heavies right now, I’m probably going to let this ride for a while.
For the guys that are hungry for power, what you could do is bypass the regulator and see what it cranks out with the full 3000psi on the valve. The OEM hammer spring looks like it’s plenty strong enough to knock it open, and of course it’s possible to dial in some preload by tightening the cap behind it.
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Wolverine reminded me of something that I wanted to mention about a leaking poppet after the rebuild. There’s a brass bushing threaded into the valve body that guides the valve stem. When I reinstalled it, I applied threadlocker and snugged it up (threadlocker is anaerobic so being tight helps it cure more quickly).
Unfortunately, the poppet then leaked badly when I tried to fill it. So I took it apart to burnish the poppet against the valve seat with a slurry of J-B bore paste and polishing compound. After spinning the parts together for a few seconds, I inspected the valve seat and sure enough, there was a polished crescent appearing instead of a uniform circle. It occurred to me that the brass bushing might have canted ever so slightly when it bottomed out (tightened), whereby holding the valve stem at a slight angle and preventing the poppet from seating fully. So I backed it off a quarter turn and tried again. Very quickly a nice polished circle appeared. Once reassembled, it sealed perfectly from zero pressure with a hand pump.
I then set it aside overnight to allow the threadlocker to cure. The point being, if I had fired it right away, quite possibly the blast of air would have blown the liquid threadlocker right out of the threads and then the bushing would be apt to back out over time.
Tl;dr Don’t bottom out the brass bushing in the valve body. Apply threadlocker, thread it in until snug and then back off ¼ turn. Then install the poppet, valve spring, and cap…what that does is it presses the poppet against the valve seat and aligns the bushing to the valve stem while the threadlocker cures.
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Wolverine reminded me of something that I wanted to mention about a leaking poppet after the rebuild. There’s a brass bushing threaded into the valve body that guides the valve stem. When I reinstalled it, I applied threadlocker and snugged it up (threadlocker is anaerobic so being tight helps it cure more quickly).
Unfortunately, the poppet then leaked badly when I tried to fill it. So I took it apart to burnish the poppet against the valve seat with a slurry of J-B bore paste and polishing compound. After spinning the parts together for a few seconds, I inspected the valve seat and sure enough, there was a polished crescent appearing instead of a uniform circle. It occurred to me that the brass bushing might have canted ever so slightly when it bottomed out (tightened), whereby holding the valve stem at a slight angle and preventing the poppet from seating fully. So I backed it off a quarter turn and tried again. Very quickly a nice polished circle appeared. Once reassembled, it sealed perfectly from zero pressure with a hand pump.
I then set it aside overnight to allow the threadlocker to cure. The point being, if I had fired it right away, quite possibly the blast of air would have blown the liquid threadlocker right out of the threads and then the bushing would be apt to back out over time.
Tl;dr Don’t bottom out the brass bushing in the valve body. Apply threadlocker, thread it in until snug and then back off ¼ turn. Then install the poppet, valve spring, and cap…what that does is it presses the poppet against the valve seat and aligns the bushing to the valve stem while the threadlocker cures.
I'm kinda wondering about that on my .22 because it is leaking very slow and I figure it's by the poppet, just found that out this morning when I was going to head to the state land with it, I did fill it and brought along my tank too but I really wouldn't needed the tank if I'd just gone hunting rather than shooting at some targets too.
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Wolverine reminded me of something that I wanted to mention about a leaking poppet after the rebuild. There’s a brass bushing threaded into the valve body that guides the valve stem. When I reinstalled it, I applied threadlocker and snugged it up (threadlocker is anaerobic so being tight helps it cure more quickly).
Unfortunately, the poppet then leaked badly when I tried to fill it. So I took it apart to burnish the poppet against the valve seat with a slurry of J-B bore paste and polishing compound. After spinning the parts together for a few seconds, I inspected the valve seat and sure enough, there was a polished crescent appearing instead of a uniform circle. It occurred to me that the brass bushing might have canted ever so slightly when it bottomed out (tightened), whereby holding the valve stem at a slight angle and preventing the poppet from seating fully. So I backed it off a quarter turn and tried again. Very quickly a nice polished circle appeared. Once reassembled, it sealed perfectly from zero pressure with a hand pump.
I then set it aside overnight to allow the threadlocker to cure. The point being, if I had fired it right away, quite possibly the blast of air would have blown the liquid threadlocker right out of the threads and then the bushing would be apt to back out over time.
Tl;dr Don’t bottom out the brass bushing in the valve body. Apply threadlocker, thread it in until snug and then back off ¼ turn. Then install the poppet, valve spring, and cap…what that does is it presses the poppet against the valve seat and aligns the bushing to the valve stem while the threadlocker cures.
Excellent info.
Another thing to be aware of is that some guns brass bushing will go in farther than others. We have 2 guns that the brass bushing can thread in so far that they will actually begin covering/blocking the exhaust port of the valve.
So as advice to others out there who are reading this, when you are installing the brass fitting, be sure to watch the port, and back out the fitting to the edge of the port.
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Well, sunshine smiled upon me after work this evening so I set up the chronograph and ran a string with the .25 cal.
It gave 31 shots inside of a 4% ES with an average energy just shy of 45fpe. Or 28 shots inside of a 2% ES. I'm a bit disappointed at the efficiency, even given the caveats in my previous post...so it must've been really bad out of the box. Still, 31 shots is about 20 more than I've ever needed for a long gray squirrel hunt and the accuracy is there in spades so I'm just gonna enjoy this for a while.
Gotta say the regulator is working splendidly. It was 1fps away from having 26 shots inside of 1%...and this was with a 50/50 split of MK I and MK II pellets!
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=6030)
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Jason your 25 is working great IMO !!!
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Great strings.
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Looks great and well worth your efforts in tuning up your DAR25. I hoping that mine look as good.
Are using the stock hammer spring and what was the final spring adjustment?
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Right now I have my .25 set for 1 clip, the cast 34.5 grain pellets I'm shooting shoot extremely well out of this gun at 900fps. It's no problem getting a dime size group with them at 40 yards
FPS FPS
1. 900.8 34.58g 62.32fpe 6. 914.7 34.66g 64.40fpe
2. 910.2 34.42g 63.33fpe 7. 899.2 34.48g 61.92fpe
3. 914.4 34.64g 64.32fpe 8. 872.4 34.66g 58.58fpe
4. 918.4 34.42g 64.48fpe 9. 895.4 34.52g 61.46fpe
5. 900.4 34.62g 62.33fpe 10. 891.3 34.32g 60.55fpe
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Right now I have my .25 set for 1 clip, the cast 34.5 grain pellets I'm shooting shoot extremely well out of this gun at 900fps. It's no problem getting a dime size group with them at 40 yards
FPS FPS
1. 900.8 34.58g 62.32fpe 6. 914.7 34.66g 64.40fpe
2. 910.2 34.42g 63.33fpe 7. 899.2 34.48g 61.92fpe
3. 914.4 34.64g 64.32fpe 8. 872.4 34.66g 58.58fpe
4. 918.4 34.42g 64.48fpe 9. 895.4 34.52g 61.46fpe
5. 900.4 34.62g 62.33fpe 10. 891.3 34.32g 60.55fpe
Wayne, very, very nice for 60+ fpe. What is your hammer spring settings?
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Right now I have my .25 set for 1 clip, the cast 34.5 grain pellets I'm shooting shoot extremely well out of this gun at 900fps. It's no problem getting a dime size group with them at 40 yards
FPS FPS
1. 900.8 34.58g 62.32fpe 6. 914.7 34.66g 64.40fpe
2. 910.2 34.42g 63.33fpe 7. 899.2 34.48g 61.92fpe
3. 914.4 34.64g 64.32fpe 8. 872.4 34.66g 58.58fpe
4. 918.4 34.42g 64.48fpe 9. 895.4 34.52g 61.46fpe
5. 900.4 34.62g 62.33fpe 10. 891.3 34.32g 60.55fpe
Wayne: Looks like you are well prepared for that coyote! Awesome results! I've got my .25 holding air, just waiting on some tall 30mm rings so I can mount the scope. That magazine for the .25 is huge!
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Wayne, Great strings for the power.
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Have you seen https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=147936.0? (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=147936.0?)
I am wondering if the DAR can do the same with heavier pellets.
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Nervioustrigger,Wayne 52, can both or one of you give me a step by step of how to tune my dar 25 to get these numbers? Should get mine or a replacement back in a week (according to aim) and want to set it up for urban coyotes. I am on 80 acres but surrounded by houses so can’t use firearms. I have read about your tunes on some of your posts but would be great to see a post with all in one. I am fairly new to air rifles so if you could use the k.i.s.s. Method it would be great help for me. Thanks
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Nervioustrigger,Wayne 52, can both or one of you give me a step by step of how to tune my dar 25 to get these numbers? Should get mine or a replacement back in a week (according to aim) and want to set it up for urban coyotes. I am on 80 acres but surrounded by houses so can’t use firearms. I have read about your tunes on some of your posts but would be great to see a post with all in one. I am fairly new to air rifles so if you could use the k.i.s.s. Method it would be great help for me. Thanks
+1! A tuning thread specific to the DAR25 would be awesome!
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Nervioustrigger,Wayne 52, can both or one of you give me a step by step of how to tune my dar 25 to get these numbers? Should get mine or a replacement back in a week (according to aim) and want to set it up for urban coyotes. I am on 80 acres but surrounded by houses so can’t use firearms. I have read about your tunes on some of your posts but would be great to see a post with all in one. I am fairly new to air rifles so if you could use the k.i.s.s. Method it would be great help for me. Thanks
+1! A tuning thread specific to the DAR25 would be awesome!
+2 on tune data and procedures.
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Nervioustrigger,Wayne 52, can both or one of you give me a step by step of how to tune my dar 25 to get these numbers? Should get mine or a replacement back in a week (according to aim) and want to set it up for urban coyotes. I am on 80 acres but surrounded by houses so can’t use firearms. I have read about your tunes on some of your posts but would be great to see a post with all in one. I am fairly new to air rifles so if you could use the k.i.s.s. Method it would be great help for me. Thanks
+1! A tuning thread specific to the DAR25 would be awesome!
+2 on tune data and procedures.
+3 ;D
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Jason
That spread sheet is outstanding,
Very simple to understand and see your results etc.
By any chance is this spread sheet available to us uninformed pellet shooters?
When you say, scale them manually, you can move the required boxes to fit your computer?
Sorry for the dumb questions, I am not tech savvy.
Tia,
Don
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One thing I need to do before doing much more chrony work in .25 is make a better pellet trap, It's probably about time I started thinking about
that because the one I'm using now really isn't holding up to the heavy pellets that good, I need to make one with mulched rubber in it. I haven't
really done any chrony tests with the 36 or 38 grainers. That in itself means finding the right weight for each like I did for the 34 grainers.
For tuning my 25 I basically turned the regulator up and adjusted the hammer for each adjustment until I found the 60fpe range with the 34.5
grainers, my original goal was getting ready for 25 cal BBT's but after I got the mold and tried them I found out they needed sizing so it could
be quite a while before I get to that point. I need to start watching Craig's list for a loading press, I use to have one but it's gone.
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Do you Remember how much you turned up the reg?
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James after adjusting them I'd say don't open more than a full turn to begin with because that will bring up your regulated pressure considerably. I did
my 22 one full turn when I put the orings in the airtube and regulator before I even put air in it. The regulator had 13.8 written on it in sharpy. I think
my 25 had 14.9 written on it and to be honest I can't remember what was written on my 177. It does take a lot of air to recalibrate the regulator, that
first 2K that you put in that airtube is a lot of air. I think these are 300cc air tubes on these guns.
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Nice string and power Jason! This puts the DAR in some good light. I see 29 shots within a 2.06% ES averaging 44.88 FPE.
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Regarding tuning, I suppose I have some good news for you guys because in most cases all you really have to do is adjust the hammer spring to find the knee of the velocity curve. By doing this simple adjustment, it accomplishes several things:
1. Efficient use of air / more shots. Decent efficiency…not stellar. Can be improved further with an SSG or similar approach that prevents hammer bounce.
2. Quieter report. This improvement follows from #1. Because the OEM hammer spring is too strong, it wastes a lot of air. After adjusting, it uses less air, therefore quieter.
3. Well behaved rolloff once it “falls off the regulator. This characteristic provides a few additional shots after the pressure in the reservoir falls below the regulator’s setpoint.
To do this—to adjust to the knee of the velocity curve—all you have to do is gradually increase the hammer spring preload until the velocity no longer increases. Then back off until the velocity falls to about 97% of that maximum. Let’s say your max was 900fps, just back off until it falls to 900 * 0.97 = 873.
Adjusting preload on the DAR is easy. Just remove the action from the stock (single bolt on the underside of the forestock with a M5 hex socket). On the back part of the receiver, you’ll see a disc that’s roughly ¾” in diameter with two dimples in it. Use a spanner wrench or just a small pair of needle nose pliers to turn it. Tightening it puts more preload on the hammer spring, thus will increase the velocity. Backing it out reduces preload and velocity.
Be advised the hammer spring on my .25 was too strong even at minimum preload (disc flush with back of receiver) so I had to first shorten it in order to have some adjustment range. I don’t know if that’s true for the other two calibers but it probably is. So if you find you are always getting the same velocity no matter how much preload you give, take out the spring and remove half a coil at a time and retry. All you have to do to access the spring is remove the disc and there it is. Spring steel is hard…diagonal cutters usually won’t do it but an emery wheel in a Dremel works great.
Once you’re happy with it, you want to do something to keep the disc from backing off on its own. Some threadlocker or a little dab of hot glue will do the trick. Just be advised that threadlocker cures slowly on anodized aluminum (considered an “inactive” metal).
That’s it!
From this point, if you are not where you want to be in terms of shot count or energy, it’s time to look at uptuning or downtuning. Maybe in a subsequent post…
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Don, this evening I’ll link up a copy of the spreadsheet.
Triggertreat, thanks for the encouraging words. The DAR and I had a rough go of it at first…but tight groups healed up those hard feelings :) It was a pleasant surprise seeing most of the string falling within 1%. That makes me wish I had done a couple of strings in stock form to see how much the consistency improved after the rebuild.
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Jason, this is great and timely! I do have two questions.
1. When you say "gradually increase the hammer spring preload until the velocity no longer increases", do you mean the maximum speed corresponding to each pre-load will no longer increase? So you run a string of shots at one pre-load and find the maximum speed, then increase the pre-load and refill the air, and run another string and find the maximum speed to see if it has increased or not.
2. You mention the spring is too strong to begin with. If you increase the setpoint for the regulator, will the strong spring be a better match?
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Thanks guys, will start with 22 while I wait for my 25 to come back. Already got the reg turned up one full turn on the 22. Had 13.9 on it. Will work on the spring next. Did you end up with more that one turn?
The add on SG says 250cc.
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1. Each time you turn the dial to try a new preload, you only need one or two shots to check the velocity. That’s a good question because on an unregulated setup, you have to run a full string to see its effect on the bell curve. But on a regulated setup, that is unnecessary. Just run enough shots to establish confidence. For me that’s usually two and if they are pretty close, that’s enough.
2. Yes, if you raise the regulator’s setpoint, more hammer strike (a stronger spring and/or more preload) is necessary to open the valve. It’s just so strong to begin with that you may find it still has to be shortened.
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Thanks Jason.
1. I forgot of the regulator for DARs as I am still working on the PP700.
2. I will try to get Wayne's kind of power around 60fpe, but your kind of consistency as I would like to shoot >30gr pellets/bullets at 950fps. How much did you short the spring?
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Lastdog, on shortening the spring, I ended up finding a replacement spring in my assortment that was almost identical except 1.35” long instead of 1.75” long (0.4” shorter). The wire was slightly larger at 0.062” rather than 0.059” so presumably a bit higher spring rate, but yeah, shortening the OEM spring, I suspect you may end up having to take off quite a bit. The old “take off half a coil and retry” recommendation is just a conservative way to account for unknowns so we don’t end up shortening it too much. Fortunately the spring is super easy to get to so it only take a few minutes to iterate.
Regarding the reservoir volume, the product description says 250cc but it’s a good bit smaller once accounting for the reg and plenum. I didn’t think to measure it while I had mine apart but laying a tape measure to the outside of the tube and estimating about where the regulator ends, I think we have about 15” of length with a 1” ID which works out to about 11.8ci or 193cc.
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Jason, trying to tune my 22 to get your type string. I now understand what your saying about the spring. Do your ember how much you turned up the reg?
Wayne, when I get my 25 back I will be trying to Germany’s a power coyote string like you. Do you remember how much you turned up your reg. And did you then work on hammer or did you get the power some other way?
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My reg is still at its original setting. It was marked 14.6 or 1.46 which I presumed to represent 146 bar (2100psi). Based on the pressure at which I began to see a gradual decline in velocity (around 1700psi), that may be right but I suspect the setpoint is actually a bit lower.
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Ok, Jason, the string you got was by adjusting the your new hammer spring only? The way you explained to me earlier?
So I adjust ( cut if I need to) till I get max speed then turn out till I get a 3% reduction?
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Right! I did not change the regulator setpoint or the porting. The only was manipulating the amount of hammer strike.
I think you understand the adjustment but if I try I can interpret this portion wrong:
So I adjust (cut if I need to) till I get max speed...
So just to be on the safe side, let me say it like this. I'm expecting you will start out at max speed and be unable to get anything but max speed no matter how far you back out the disc. So technically you will cut if you need to until you can get something other than max speed. At that point there should be plenty of adjustment to dial in some preload until you get back up to max speed, then back off to 97%.
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Jason,
I have some ideas for increasing the power that I'd like your opinion on. I feel the plenum is quite small for the .25 cal.
First, what are your thoughts on using a small Ball grinder in a Dremel to cut a radius in the lower forward wall of the valves exhaust port ?
Second, what are your thoughts on increasing the size of the plenum ?
I realize we can't really lengthen the plenum much, due to the location of the vent hole in the air tube for the regulator... So my thoughts are to either cut some of the side walls of the existing plenum making sure to maintain either 3 or 4 "legs" to provide enough strength to prevent the plenum from crushing/collapsing,...
Or
Just drilling as many holes through the sides of the plenum as possible and still maintain the structural integrity of the plenum.
What do you think ?
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The plenum is indeed quite small for a .25 cal.
The spacer is what, about 2" long with a wall thickness of roughly 1/8"? That means its full volume is roughly 11.26cc. So perhaps optimistically if we could eliminate half of its material, there would be a gain of 5 or 6cc.
The overall plenum volume (which includes the inside of the valve) is in the ballpark of 17 - 18cc. Just doing some rough calculations based on memory.
So for a 60fpe tune, that hypothetical total is still rather shy of the 0.5cc/fpe guideline for in-tube regulators. However it does represent an increase of about 30% which is significant.
That assumes the skeletonized spacer won't do this:
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=6031)
When the tube is pressurized fully, it has about 2300lbs leaning on it. Good chance it's going to get Belushi'd so I would want to have a backup on hand before trying it. A steel spacer would probably be the way to go.
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Titanium tube with half the thickness would probably work fine but you'd have to find tubing like that. Same O.D.
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Don, here's a copy of the spreadsheet...
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Thanks Jason. Hope to start on the 22 today. I think I. Understand now.
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Jason
Thank you,
This spread sheet works for me now. 8)
I couldn't get your other spread sheets to open/work for me.
And I have MS Excel on this plastic box.
I greatly appreciate it.
Tia,
Don
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Anyone else notice how easy the stocks on these get dinged? It seams that every time I take it out, it has a new ding! I sear I don't beat them or use them as baseball bats! These will definitely be refinished this winter, Tru-oil is much tougher than the finish on these air rifles!
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Wow Paul yours is dinging up bad, the finish hasn't scraped off a bit on any of mine yet. I've got a few small dents and dings but the finish wasn't affected
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Paul that almost looks like you scraped it on a painted surface and the paint rubbed off
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Nope, it hasn't touched a painted surface, this is most likely from taking it in and out of the safe. I even have cloth covers on my rest so the rubber doesn't even touch the stock. Good an excuse as any to refinish it I guess...
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Have you tried rubbing that with a wet rag or paper towel?
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Perhaps spraying the new stock with a clear or satin spray might help prevent these marks ?
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When I got the two DARs I immediately noticed that the stocks are light weight, and the grain patterns are weak (no grains running the butt to the front uninterrupted) in the neck area, and suspected if they are truly wood. What you guys think?
I had been very carefully in handling them and have shot only 177 for less than 10 shots.
Hope we have a way to make it tougher to take to the jungle
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Here's what mine looks like without the butt pad, it's beech I think ??? but even beech looks decent with a good stain. I actually like the way it looks on my SPA M16, it's not walnut but it seems to be good hard wood.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1821/43363931501_5cec09b24d_b.jpg)
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I have not tried wiping it down, but will. My DAR25 started leaking again. I pulled the air tube and did the condom test, and within minutes it was apparent the valve was leaking. I degassed it and when I looked at the end of the valve I could see the spring was all the way to one side.
I e-mailed Ed at Aim Sports yesterday, following up on my request for a new cone shaped spring I sent last week. Still no response... I'm willing to pay for the spring if they won't provide on under warranty. I also am willing to pay for a new Shroud Retainer Collar and a new valve spring retainer plug. This will get my DAR25 where it should be...
Anyway, I backed out the brass poppet guide and added a drop of blue loctite to keep it from moving. I also drilled a small hole in the center of the valve spring retainer plug, tapped it and screwed a short screw into the hole. This holds the spring in the center of the plug so the valve spring doesn't drift off to one side causing the poppet to be misaligned in the valve opening, which is what I suspect was causing the leak. Anyway, I aired it back up, did the condom test again, and it seems to be holding air again.
Now for a question... I forgot to remove the electrical tape I put over the regulator air vent hole, what if any effect will that have on the performance? I shot a few pellets through it and it seemed to work fine. I just need to remove the stock again to take it off, but was curious as to what would happen if I didn't???
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DARs are gone from SG site.
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Yep they're gone now ???
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Now for a question... I forgot to remove the electrical tape I put over the regulator air vent hole, what if any effect will that have on the performance? I shot a few pellets through it and it seemed to work fine. I just need to remove the stock again to take it off, but was curious as to what would happen if I didn't???
My guess is,
it would prevent the regulator from properly venting, thus getting variable velocities from shot to shot ? ? ?
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With the sudden change after a discharge of the plenum the o rings on the regulator probably do flex to a certain point I gathered that was why a vent is required.
I wouldn't think that the neutral groove on the regulator is supposed to get any pressure from either regulated or unregulated side.
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Well guys I got time to tune my 22. Now I get over 3 mags at average 855 FPS , 34 fps with a stdev of 2.6. May be more, but thunder and rain put an end to my string. Could not be happier. That’s with 21.14g barracudas.
Thanks, Jason for walking me through.
Still waiting to find out what is going to happen with the 25. Guessing tomorrow I will call and ty to find out. They got it last Thursday. Going to try a one mag power tune on it. Anyone what’s to throw me some ideas please feel free.
Really like these DAR guns sorry to see them go. Sure hope to find parts somewhere or might have to make some.
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James, that's great news. I'm glad to hear you got it set up and that it's making good power.
Did you dial up the regulator or leave it stock, and did you happen to note how much you shortened the hammer spring?
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Jason,
Thank you for the fine work you have done in starting to tune the DAR's.
I ha e been pretty busy this last couple of weeks, and haven't had time to put mine back together yet. Hopefully I'll get some time on it soon.
I'd like to get my .25 tuned in around 60 fpe, with whatever efficiency can be squeezed out at that power level.
Keep up the good work !
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I had turned the reg one turn ccw when I first got the gun and put new o-rings in, so I left it that way. The hammer spring was so easy to turn with very little resistance I just turn it all the way in then out one turn, tested then out 1/2 turn, tested then out 1/2 turn, test, then in 1/4 tested, and that’s where I stopped . So 1 3/4 out. Did not even see the spring. Is not like my 25. It would take a lot of force to turn so I just left it alone and kept it at stock. Did not think of cutting. I am sure the used different parts on different guns,especially the 25. If I remember right the 25s had the most problems.
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All three of mine are working good now, I've had a lot of shooting time with both the 177 and the 25 but next will be the 22, I need to sight that in with another scope that I have on it, other than that it's tuned good and ready for some of the cast pellets when my mold gets here tomorrow ;D Today I spent a lot of time with my Airmax Dominator, which kind of fizzled out on me, I need to get some o rings for it an other odds and ends before I get it back up to snuff. PCP's all need maintenance from time to time for sure. I think the most reliable of all the PCP's that I have has been my Prod, that thing is one durable little sucker.
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Wayne hope nothing major on your Dominator. Hate it when something gives you trouble here or there.
Glad your DARs are kicking well.
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It's mainly the hammer spring Greg, its worn out from use is all and don't have the umf like it use to. I'll get a thicker wired spring in the same length, should work better than the old one. The regulator is fine I'm sure. I also am going going to get some fill probe o rings for it in 80duro or 90 duro, anyone got recommended material for this application.
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Do you deburr the bore with JB paste stuff? Is it worth doing for accuracy purpose?
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James, okay thanks for the info. Good to hear the hammer spring appears to be lighter on the .22 cal.
Ron, thanks for the kind words. Like you said, this platform is super easy to work on, and it’s nice that a RVA is built in and the hammer spring is easy to remove. A basic tune is so easy.
Wolverine, I did the full treatment on my barrel but due to the bad crown, I didn’t bother doing individual things in isolation. The bore felt a little rough when pushing a pellet through. Accuracy is remarkable now with the JSB 34gr. Yesterday it was drilling aspirin-sized bullseyes on my 43 yard target 4 out of 5 times.
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Wolverine, I did the full treatment on my barrel but due to the bad crown, I didn’t bother doing individual things in isolation. The bore felt a little rough when pushing a pellet through. Accuracy is remarkable now with the JSB 34gr. Yesterday it was drilling aspirin-sized bullseyes on my 43 yard target 4 out of 5 times.
That is great to know, Jason. I will then try it (first time).
I looked for the 0.177 VFG felt at the link https://www.brownells.com/gun-cleaning-chemicals/patches-mops/cleaning-pellets/weapons-care-system-pellets-prod13839.aspx (https://www.brownells.com/gun-cleaning-chemicals/patches-mops/cleaning-pellets/weapons-care-system-pellets-prod13839.aspx) but did not see it. They do have 0.22 and 0.25. Any suggestions?
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No VFG available for .177 cal. I use a brass jag and cotton patches with Kroil and JB bore compound. Be sure your cleaning rod rotates freely so the patch follows the rifling. A ball bearing cleaning rod works well. Mine was a conventional rod that I added a couple of 4mm ID ball bearings to and seated their OD into a wooden handle.
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No VFG available for .177 cal. I use a brass jag and cotton patches with Kroil and JB bore compound. Be sure your cleaning rod rotates freely so the patch follows the rifling. A ball bearing cleaning rod works well. Mine was a conventional rod that I added a couple of 4mm ID ball bearings to and seated their OD into a wooden handle.
Jason I have the typically rod from the cleaning package, the handle does rotate but I am sure no bearing inside.
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Yeah that sounds like mine...it was just a cheap cleaning rod but a couple of ball bearings added to the shaft (using red threadlocker) converted it to a good lapping rod.
Measure yours. If it’s 4mm which is common for anything made for .177, it only costs about $5 to convert.
https://www.amazon.com/uxcell-Groove-Bearing-Double-Bearings/dp/B07FVXN55Q (https://www.amazon.com/uxcell-Groove-Bearing-Double-Bearings/dp/B07FVXN55Q)
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Thanks Jason for the link.
Looked at Brownell for the felt adapters but is out of stock. I was told the next shipment will be in November or later. I guess I have to use the cleaning rods , jags and cleaning paper that is in my cheap cleaning package, like what you did
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Quick update...I added this note to Wayne's thread but since a good bit of troubleshooting info is captured in this thread, I figured it would be good to add it here as well.
I was having a slow leak through the regulator's vent hole in the tube. Not fast enough to hear but a clear piece of tape placed over the hole would lift after a short time. Since it's rainy this evening, I decided to drain the reservoir and have a look. Turns out there's just one O-ring internal to the regulator and in this case it looked a little ratty. A -012 in 90 durometer fit nicely so I reassembled it and brought it back up to 200 bar to monitor it and see if that cured it. The vent hole isn't weeping any longer so hopefully I didn't introduce any new leaks.
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Jason I think I have the same problem with my 25 cal also, the .177 & .22 are holding air fantastic however eventually I'll be replacing all three with the 90duro -012 like you described. It's time to make an order from the O-Ring Store again.
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Quick update...I added this note to Wayne's thread but since a good bit of troubleshooting info is captured in this thread, I figured it would be good to add it here as well.
I was having a slow leak through the regulator's vent hole in the tube. Not fast enough to hear but a clear piece of tape placed over the hole would lift after a short time. Since it's rainy this evening, I decided to drain the reservoir and have a look. Turns out there's just one O-ring internal to the regulator and in this case it looked a little ratty. A -012 in 90 durometer fit nicely so I reassembled it and brought it back up to 200 bar to monitor it and see if that cured it. The vent hole isn't weeping any longer so hopefully I didn't introduce any new leaks.
Thanks Jason for the timely update, I will need to get some of theses P12 duro 90 orings to fix my DAR25, hope that is all the cause.
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Placing an order for the 012 viton 90 o-ring, any other o-rings I should order for back-up?
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Placing an order for the 012 viton 90 o-ring, any other o-rings I should order for back-up?
If you don't already have the 117 Duro90's on hand, you may want to grab those as well...
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Placing an order for the 012 viton 90 o-ring, any other o-rings I should order for back-up?
If you don't already have the 117 Duro90's on hand, you may want to grab those as well...
Thanks Paul. I found the O-ring kit list and will be ordering a set of them
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Well I got problems with my DAR22 right now, the darned safety fell out when I was out in the woods today, I looked for it retracing from the last time I put it on safe but couldn't find it, when I got home I took it apart to see what happened and the trigger where the setscrew/plunger was stirpped out and it had fallen out allowing the safety to fall out as well. I did send AimSports an email trying to get it resolved already, we'll see what happens and I'm keeping my fingers crossed because I really like the gun but prefer having a safety on it. I did get a black and red squirrel while I was out there though ;D
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Well I got problems with my DAR22 right now, the darned safety fell out when I was out in the woods today, I looked for it retracing from the last time I put it on safe but couldn't find it, when I got home I took it apart to see what happened and the trigger where the setscrew/plunger was stirpped out and it had fallen out allowing the safety to fall out as well. I did send AimSports an email trying to get it resolved already, we'll see what happens and I'm keeping my fingers crossed because I really like the gun but prefer having a safety on it. I did get a black and red squirrel while I was out there though ;D
Wayne, worse case you can always rethread the hole to a larger size and put in a new set screw if you can find the safety piece. It seems to be a pretty common looking safety, maybe one from another gun would fit. Hopefully, Aim Sports will come through for you.
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Wayne, good luck with getting the parts. I suspect they will ask you return the gun and promise you a new gun next year.
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Wayne
Would the QB safety parts fit?
Since the are a close relative?
Tia,
Don
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Some of you might have seen the pic that I posted in another thread about finding my safety the following day after losing it. I tried for a short time looking where the safety was for the tiny spring and plunger but without my readers there was any way I'd ever find it so I ordered a spring and plunger for a colt 1911 that just might work, it's going to be here Thursday. The threads are so bad in the trigger I'll just dig up a grub screw really close in size and blue loctite it.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1906/30111902347_3634e3aee1_b.jpg)
I also replaced the internal -012 o ring in the regulator on my DAR25 and it's been 4 days now since I replaced it and the gauge is right where I left it. This has cured a slow leak that that it started about two weeks ago and it's definitely cured Look how bad the o ring is that I took out of it.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1925/43236308300_8d8bc22abb_m.jpg)
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Wayne,
Are you aware that Aim Sports has really stepped up to the plate, and has issued a full customer service refund/recall ?
They are not messing around or making any excuses. The guns were unintentionally released with a few QC issues. They are working to correct the problems and are comitted to their Customers.
The recall gives the customers 2 options.
Option 1 - return the gun to Sportsman Guide and receive a full refund.
Option 2 - return the gun to Sportsman Guide and when the gen 2 guns arrive
sometime after the new years you will get one at no charge.
They do not want to have poor quality products out there, and they do not want to be continually chasing QC issues on these Gen 1 guns.
Seems to me, like a pretty great Customer Service offer, that we don't see in very many other companies these days.
I understand the gun is a good shooting gun. I like mine too.
But I can also understand when a company sees a issue, and does everything they can to eliminate the problem.
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It looks like Aim Sports is determined to make their company a success and are taking the right steps to insure it. I'm very happy with my DAR 25 after doing my own QC and corrected a lot of minor problems. I love the design and platform and with good QC it can be rated as a Premium Air Gun, without a doubt. I'm looking forward to see what GEN II has to offer because I would like to add a .177 to my arsenal.
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Ed from Aimsports wrote to me "If you do not wish to be refunded for the item, it can be sent to us and logged for a Gen 2 upgrade at no additional charge. The Gen 2 models are expected sometime mid 2019." So if we were going to get Gen2, likely it will be 8-12 months wait. Hard to be without these rifles for that long.
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Guys, if anyone is struggling with a leak, here are my detailed O-ring notes so far. You'll see plenty of improvisation but there are many ways to get air to stay where you want it so by all means experiment with it. This is just what has worked for me.
Regulator body: 2ea -117 90 durometer. The original high side O-ring, an M2.5x20 estimated 50 durometer, extruded after a few days and dumped all the air through the atmospheric vent hole.
Regulator spool, top: -012 90 durometer, very snug but didn't shear on installation. Original was M1.5x9 and was sloughing off material after ~400 pellets through the rifle.
Regulator spool, bottom: -007 90 durometer with OD abraded to about 0.260" to fit inside groove of brass ring. Original is M1.5x4.
tube caps: 2ea -117 90 durometer. Others reported using 70 durometer with success; doesn't seem this one is apt to extrude like the ones on the regulator body.
air tube (into receiver): M2x14 70 durometer. Originals appear to be M1.5x17 and are a loose fit...didn't feel adequate when inserting the tube into the receiver. The M2x14 stretches a bit to install, and the resulting fit to the receiver is snug. 90 durometer would probably get cut.
fill probe: Factory ones are M1.5x3mm estimated 50 durometer. They leak for the first 2 or 3 pump strokes until enough pressure has built for them to seal. A 90 durometer of the same size would probably work _if_ it can be installed without tearing (has to stretch quite a bit...polyurethane might survive). Ended up using -005 in 70 durometer with the ID abraded to match that of the metric. Seals right away.
barrel band: M1 x 20
fill port: -007 (from memory, maybe -006...original had failed). Bring the tapered screw down onto it with just a slight amount of interference.
barrel .25cal (seals to bolt probe): -902 90 durometer (actual dimensions .240" ID .370 OD)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0051XZBVO (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0051XZBVO)
Tricky to install. Seated a pellet into the leade, then inserted a short segment cut from a 1/4 dowel to fill the portion beyond the O-ring groove. Then used a pick to work the O-ring into the groove. The 90 durometer seems to be holding up well.
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Jason,
Thank You for your time, efforts, and very detailed info.
I am very sure others (and myself) will find this list quite helpful.
This kind of contribution is what makes GTA members the best.
A big "High Five" to you Sir ! ;D
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I know that I won't be sending mine back, I'm hoping I can make the 1911 spring plunger work, a person can do wonders with a dremel too, modern day gun smiths would probably be lost without their dremel.
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Never mess with a man's Truck, Dog, Motorcycle,.... OR HIS DREMEL ! :P ;) ;D
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Jason, thanks for putting this together, much appreciated.
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Great work, Jason. Timely.
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No problem, guys...just sharing in the old GTA tradition. :)