GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: cvicisso on July 10, 2018, 10:56:39 PM
-
Having put about 600 pellets through my new Gauntlet with CO2 this past holiday, I am SOLD on using CO2 in the summer as an alternative plinking power source... when it makes sense - like it does on the Gauntlet. I'm wondering what other current PCP guns are suited for this setup? Obviously, the QB-79 can easily go back and forth between HPA and CO2, and I've seen pictures of Hammerli 850s with the regulated HPA Ninja tank attached. Also, I recently read that some of the AirForce guns come with a CO2 adapter (is this only for certain calibers?).
It seems that an 'external' regulator (or one in the bottle vs the 'breech' of the gun) seems to make sense as a prerequisite for a PCP to be easily convertible. That way the pressure the gun normally feels is already reduced to something closer to CO2 pressures - like the QB-79 using the Ninja or the Gauntlet. BTW, what IS the range of normal regulated output pressures for PCP guns? I think the Gauntlet is something like 1100(ish) out of the box. Is this typical for regulated HPA guns with 3000psi fills?
The HPA tank would also either have to be large to accommodate the size of a 9-12 oz CO2 tank that would replace it (like the AF Condor family with the tank in the buttstock or the Gauntlet with the 'Ninja' - or whatever it's called now) or smallish to take 90g or a couple of 12g cartridges in a tube of some sort.
Are we caliber-limited? I read somewhere (here) that the .25 Gauntlet will not likely be useful on CO2. Not sure why, but something to probably also consider.
Also, FWIW, although I read it before, I ignorantly verified through trial and error (mostly error!) that the 'usefulness' of a repeater using CO2 is somewhat limited. If I didn't wait between shots, my accuracy dropped off pretty seriously during my recent outing.
Ok, so enough rambling. What PCP guns are out there that can easily be used on CO2 in the summer (or the other way around)? And what other factors (like caliber, tuning, etc) must be considered?
Thanks in advance!
-
In tehory,any regulated PCP setted from 850 to 1200 psi can succesfully run "dual fuel".
Airguns with higher working pressures can work too,but the strongest hammer setups needed to open the valve at high pressure will lead to a huge CO2 consumption,so you need a specific tune to switch fuels.
I own an old Airmagnum 850 PCP converted,this rifle was commonly converted to use bulk CO2 in 9oz using an 88grams AS to paintball adapter that allows the use of a 2" dia. paintball HPA bottle setted in the 850-1100psi range as alternative fuel without other mods.
The adapter is the one on the left side.
-
I have been looking at air guns that will do that.
Supposedly the Disco is dual fuel and that's why I'm considering getting one. Don't know how practical dual fuel would be for me though.
-
My Disco can switch from HPA to CO2 without adjustment except for sight-in. Last winter I planned to tether it to a 12 oz CO2 tank for shooting starlings off a bipod from my dining room table.
Unfortunately the starling numbers didn't materialize, so I stuck with my AF Talon running CO2.
For my backyard shooting the lower velocity of CO2 is ideal.
But in 1 minute I can switch over to my HPA tank.
A few years ago I tried the Disco with onboard CO2, but the filling process was more bother than pumping with HPA.
Both rifles are 22 cal.
My MRod is also CO2 capable, but requires internal adjustments. Not for me at present as I can still pump it.
That's the limit of my experience.
-
In tehory,any regulated PCP setted from 850 to 1200 psi can succesfully run "dual fuel".
Thanks, Fabio. How can I [easily] find what the various regulator pressures of different guns are set to? Is 850-1200 pretty standard?
Airguns with higher working pressures can work too,but the strongest hammer setups needed to open the valve at high pressure will lead to a huge CO2 consumption,so you need a specific tune to switch fuels.
Good advice! I'll need to figure out which guns have higher regulated pressures (to avoid them).
-
My Disco can switch from HPA to CO2 without adjustment except for sight-in. Last winter I planned to tether it to a 12 oz CO2 tank for shooting starlings off a bipod from my dining room table.
Unfortunately the starling numbers didn't materialize, so I stuck with my AF Talon running CO2.
That's awesome! But how much more would the Disco have given you (over the Talon) with a 12 oz tank? What size tank did you use on your Talon? Most of the pics I've seen online of the AF guns on CO2 looked like 20 oz tanks (but I could be wrong).
For my backyard shooting the lower velocity of CO2 is ideal.
I totally agree! That's the main reason I got the Gauntlet (and a DonnyFL moderator)! It is 'Splinter Cell' quiet. 8)
-
My Disco can switch from HPA to CO2 without adjustment except for sight-in. Last winter I planned to tether it to a 12 oz CO2 tank for shooting starlings off a bipod from my dining room table.
Unfortunately the starling numbers didn't materialize, so I stuck with my AF Talon running CO2.
That's awesome! But how much more would the Disco have given you (over the Talon) with a 12 oz tank? What size tank did you use on your Talon? Most of the pics I've seen online of the AF guns on CO2 looked like 20 oz tanks (but I could be wrong).
For my backyard shooting the lower velocity of CO2 is ideal.
I totally agree! That's the main reason I got the Gauntlet (and a DonnyFL moderator)! It is 'Splinter Cell' quiet. 8)
I only use 12 oz tanks on mine as I get almost a full years shooting out of one tank.
The cheek weld on a 20 oz tank would be too high, IMO.
I've never counted the number of shots since they are spread out so much.
On the Disco, much CO2 is lost due to venting the hose after every fill.
That's why I had planned to tether the tank to the gun.
I could close the tank valve and shoot the remaining pressure off the gun if I planned to disconnect them.
Here's a photo of my Talon with the 12 oz tank:
-
For my backyard shooting the lower velocity of CO2 is ideal.
I only use 12 oz tanks on mine as I get almost a full years shooting out of one tank.
The cheek weld on a 20 oz tank would be too high, IMO.
I've never counted the number of shots since they are spread out so much.
On the Disco, much CO2 is lost due to venting the hose after every fill.
That's why I had planned to tether the tank to the gun.
I could close the tank valve and shoot the remaining pressure off the gun if I planned to disconnect them.
Here's a photo of my Talon with the 12 oz tank:
You've inspired me! I really like the idea of a Talon or Condor with a 12 oz CO2 tank sitting at-the-ready for some 'bench' (table) shooting out my window. The 'non-ideal' ergonomics I've read about (air/CO2 supply as buttstock) would be mostly mitigated by the fact that this would be sitting on a table (liek yours). We've got a bunny that's been ravaging our garden this year that I'd like to invite to dinner... ;D The owl decoy that has worked for years is completely useless against this guy. I've got a perfect view of the garden from my bedroom. We've got a ton of squirrels in the yard too, but so far they haven't been much of a nuisance.
Anyway... I'm assuming the Talon is probably better suited (vs. the Condor) for this setup because of the lower pressure of the CO2, right? I don't know much about AF guns except what I've read - but, are the calibers/barrels interchangeable? In other words, could I buy a .22 (SS) Talon and get a .25 barrel for it later and just slap it in? Any other modifications required? Is CO2 ok for a .25 AF gun? For example, I read that the .25 Gauntlet (if it ever materializes) won't be suited for CO2 use because of the dynamics of using CO2 with the larger caliber (even with valve tweaking). Is that true with the Talon (or Condor) as well? Has anyone done it (CO2 with .25 Talon or Condor)?
Finally, what's up with the AF Spin-Loc tanks? What are they? What's the difference between them and the 'old' tanks? Obviously, I'm most interested in running this rig off of CO2, so which is better - Spin-Loc or the other?
Thanks again!
-
the maximus with its 26 inch barrel is likely the most ideal co2 rifle out of the box.. I know a few people run theirs on co2 full time and the numbers were impressive.. co2 , generally speaking needs barrel length.. Ive built co2 guns from 5 fpe to 100 FPE ..( yes the thread is on the gta) and the common theme is barrel length VS sectional density.The air force guns might also do well because of their massive flow potential and hammer arrangement
-
the maximus with its 26 inch barrel is likely the most ideal co2 rifle out of the box.. I know a few people run theirs on co2 full time and the numbers were impressive.. co2 , generally speaking needs barrel length.. Ive built co2 guns from 5 fpe to 100 FPE ..( yes the thread is on the gta) and the common theme is barrel length VS sectional density.The air force guns might also do well because of their massive flow potential and hammer arrangement
Good info - thanks, I will definitely put the Maximus on my short list. However... call me lazy, but I would prefer a gun I wouldn't have to 'fill.' With the AF guns (or my Gauntlet), the 12 oz CO2 tank just threads right on and you're good to go for ~600 shots - or a year(!!) in Ol'DeadEye's case! That is very, very appealing to me. No compressors, no SCUBA tanks, no hand pumps. Just $3.50 per fill. Plus you can remove the CO2 tank while it's still full (with no loss of gas) to switch to HPA (in colder weather, for example) if you want. With the Maximus, I think you would need to dump any leftover CO2 in order to switch to HPA.
-
the maximus with its 26 inch barrel is likely the most ideal co2 rifle out of the box.. I know a few people run theirs on co2 full time and the numbers were impressive.. co2 , generally speaking needs barrel length.. Ive built co2 guns from 5 fpe to 100 FPE ..( yes the thread is on the gta) and the common theme is barrel length VS sectional density.The air force guns might also do well because of their massive flow potential and hammer arrangement
Good info - thanks, I will definitely put the Maximus on my short list. However... call me lazy, but I would prefer a gun I wouldn't have to 'fill.' With the AF guns (or my Gauntlet), the 12 oz CO2 tank just threads right on and you're good to go for ~600 shots - or a year(!!) in Ol'DeadEye's case! That is very, very appealing to me. No compressors, no SCUBA tanks, no hand pumps. Just $3.50 per fill. Plus you can remove the CO2 tank while it's still full (with no loss of gas) to switch to HPA (in colder weather, for example) if you want. With the Maximus, I think you would need to dump any leftover CO2 in order to switch to HPA.
I do the same thing , I always build or use a screw on tank gun for co2.. I cannot be bothered with fill whips and syphons etc.. just 3.99 at academy for 24 ounces of co2 (-;
-
I do the same thing , I always build or use a screw on tank gun for co2.. I cannot be bothered with fill whips and syphons etc.. just 3.99 at academy for 24 ounces of co2 (-;
Well, great minds think alike!! ;D
What kind of guns have you built or seen like this (screw on CO2 tank)? Any pics?! Did you rig a Maximus like this? I'd love to see it (and any others).
-
heres 2 co2 builds , one took carts and was factory , one takes a tank and was experimental.. there have been 2 others I need to find pics of
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=143832.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=143832.0)
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=136909.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=136909.0)
-
heres my bottle fed 9ounce m417 crosman conversion
https://www.flickr.com/photos/56743574@N07/27303150096/in/dateposted-public/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/56743574@N07/27303150096/in/dateposted-public/)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4g_-lOPPMSw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4g_-lOPPMSw)
and heres the 9mm plinkster with a 90 gram adapter'
(http://i746.photobucket.com/albums/xx102/robnewyork50/sideview.jpg) (http://s746.photobucket.com/user/robnewyork50/media/sideview.jpg.html)
-
also made a 30 caliber paintball gun that ran on tanks, not sure where the pics are but man it was ugly as sin 8)
-
Rob - those are amazing builds!! Thanks for sharing those. Unfortunately (for me) - WAY beyond my capabilities. ??? Maybe someday...
-
Rob - those are amazing builds!! Thanks for sharing those. Unfortunately (for me) - WAY beyond my capabilities. ??? Maybe someday...
thx.. what about the qb79 series with drop blocks , those are cheap and tank ready?
-
Rob - those are amazing builds!! Thanks for sharing those. Unfortunately (for me) - WAY beyond my capabilities. ??? Maybe someday...
thx.. what about the qb79 series with drop blocks , those are cheap and tank ready?
Again... great minds! ;)
The QB-79 was on my radar for a long time and I almost pulled the trigger on one (pun - ha!), when I stumbled upon the Gauntlet. I wanted a repeater (although now I question the practicality of a CO2 repeater since an extended pause is required between shots in order to retain accuracy), and the QB-79 required an extensive mod in order to make that happen. However, I should add that my long-term goal is to eventually shoot these things using HPA... after I get a compressor some day. For now, CO2 is answering the mail for me.
The price was right on my Gauntlet and I do not regret the purchase at ALL - love it. It was, after all, a proof-of-concept platform for me - and it has fit the bill perfectly. But speaking of 'fitting'... the Gauntlet is ENORMOUS! :o With the factory barrel shroud (which I replaced with a DonnyFL short shroud), it won't even fit in the soft case I bought for it! So, it will stay in the 'collection' but I'm still looking for something smaller that I can screw a CO2 tank on. The Talon SS looks tempting. I think I could even use it as a 'take-down' rifle and shove it in a backpack. Don't know about those different AF tanks though. I might post the question in a new thread.
-
one member chopped his gauntlet, and it came out awesome ( about 8 inches shorter than stock) the one thing he did not do was the valve mods needed to get it back to factory numbers..were I to get a gauntlet, id chop the barrel , the shroud ( rethread that for m20 to maintain factory cap ) and id chop the buttstock 1-2 inches.. this would bring the gauntlet below 40 inches.. and with a 9 ounce co2 , it may actually look well balanced.
-
Rob - those are amazing builds!! Thanks for sharing those. Unfortunately (for me) - WAY beyond my capabilities. ??? Maybe someday...
thx.. what about the qb79 series with drop blocks , those are cheap and tank ready?
So, it will stay in the 'collection' but I'm still looking for something smaller that I can screw a CO2 tank on. The Talon SS looks tempting. I think I could even use it as a 'take-down' rifle and shove it in a backpack. Don't know about those different AF tanks though. I might post the question in a new thread.
I originally bought my Talon-SS as a CO2 gun and later added the HPA tank.
It has seen very little use on HPA as it is a bear to fill to full 3k pressure with a hand pump. But there is no "rule" that says I can't stop at 2.5k...
I thought about the spin-lock tank and the only advantage I can see is the availability of a gauge, which the standard tank lacks. The ability to fill on the gun doesn't really matter to me, as removing the tank to fill is a simple operation. The rifle is short and relatively light weight. The built-in baffling is quiet and doesn't lengthen the rifle.
I have a Disco with a 'short' tko and its length makes me feel like I'm swinging a Kentucky rifle muzzle loader.
The Talon-SS benefits from the installation of a strap-on WOK-Butt, which I have.
Talon works nicely with a red dot or multitac sight, which reduces the weight and bulk of a scope .
BugBuster scope is a nice fit too, with an offset one-piece mount.
I would like to try it with open sights (peep). The AF front sight would work but the rear is invisible to my old-man eyes. I plan to try a Williams peep when I get around to it ($$$).
-
I originally bought my Talon-SS as a CO2 gun and later added the HPA tank.
It has seen very little use on HPA as it is a bear to fill to full 3k pressure with a hand pump. But there is no "rule" that says I can't stop at 2.5k...
I thought about the spin-lock tank and the only advantage I can see is the availability of a gauge, which the standard tank lacks. The ability to fill on the gun doesn't really matter to me, as removing the tank to fill is a simple operation.
So the Spin-Loc tank just adds a gauge and a fill port? The 'tank-to-receiver-fitting' is the same? I assume I'll still need the AF CO2 adapter to fit my 12 oz tank on there, right?
I have a Disco with a 'short' tko and its length makes me feel like I'm swinging a Kentucky rifle muzzle loader.
That's what my Gauntlet felt like.
The Talon-SS benefits from the installation of a strap-on WOK-Butt, which I have.
I'll Google that - looks nice.
Thanks!
-
I do not have any non-regulated PCP's that I haven't tried co2 in. I balk at running co2 though an HPA regulator, but even though it is "forbidden" by most makers, have tried it in every non-regulated PCP I have.
It is possible the maker used O-rings that are "allergic" to co2 and might swell or even "crackle" with it'suse...I just haven;'t come across any that didn't go back to working normal with air after a short to even season long use of co2. The valve stems are likely either Delrin or Teflon, neither of which seem to give a "hoot".
BUT the only real "wins" have been with the PCP's produced or tuned to LOW PRESSURES (like 2K Disco/Maxi/Beeman Chief) or the HPA bottle rifles tuned to about 1000-1100 PSi with the BOTTLES REMOVED and small co2 tanks attached.
YOu'll generally lost 1/3 the energy at best...and 2/3rds the energy at worst....but can gain a whole lot of shots.
Of course, you could dedicate a PCP to co2 and readjust/retune everything to work it's best with co2 and get more performance....but it won't be "dual gas" as it will be a way out of tune for air.
With non regulated PCP's, can figure soemthing like bulk filling 1 ounce of co2 for each 42-43cc's of air volume (which puts them on the same ratio of air-to-cow as paintball tanks). So somthing like a Dico can hold a max. fill of about 3.1-3.2 ounces of co2 (and we can have a whole 'nuter discussion about how to get a max fill).
So far, the best results (without any re-tuning away from it's air settings) has been with the LOWEST pressure PCP's. Disco/Maxi/Chief all run at 2K with air. The Flying Dragons PCP runs at 1500 psi with air. They've all done quite well with co2.
-
BUT the only real "wins" have been with the PCP's produced or tuned to LOW PRESSURES (like 2K Disco/Maxi/Beeman Chief) or the HPA bottle rifles tuned to about 1000-1100 PSi with the BOTTLES REMOVED and small co2 tanks attached.
This is great (and encouraging!) info! Thanks! Is there an easy way to look up what the various HPA bottle rifles are tuned to?
-
I originally bought my Talon-SS as a CO2 gun and later added the HPA tank.
It has seen very little use on HPA as it is a bear to fill to full 3k pressure with a hand pump. But there is no "rule" that says I can't stop at 2.5k...
I thought about the spin-lock tank and the only advantage I can see is the availability of a gauge, which the standard tank lacks. The ability to fill on the gun doesn't really matter to me, as removing the tank to fill is a simple operation.
So the Spin-Loc tank just adds a gauge and a fill port? The 'tank-to-receiver-fitting' is the same? I assume I'll still need the AF CO2 adapter to fit my 12 oz tank on there, right?
I don't have and have never seen a SpinLock tank in the flesh, but I believe the threaded insert in the frame needs to be replaced with the spinlock part. Then the spinlock tank can be clamped into it. Don't know how the co2 adapter fits in that assembly. Maybe someone with personal knowledge will pipe in...
Part # 4 in the photo...
I have thought of installing a TalonTunes tank adapter which will lower the tank height by 3/4" to 1" and providing a fill port and gauge. Just more money to spend that I don't really need. But I may want it in the future.... The rifle needs to be slightly modified for its use. Maybe someday...
http://talontunes.com/shop/talon-tunes-tank-adapter/ (http://talontunes.com/shop/talon-tunes-tank-adapter/)
-
Only two air guns are sold as running on HPA bottles. The Gautlet and the Pyarmid Air conversions. Both seem to run no9n something like 1100-1200psi, and both are a bit of an iar hog as issued. So wapping a small co2 tank is likely to show significant drop in power (lets say 1/3 to 1/2 the energy per shot)….worse if the air system is tuned to the max.....maybe better if the air system is tuned to low speeds.
Don't have a Gauntlet....do have a couple of self converted tyo HPA QB's...as I run the HPA Qb's at only 850psi, the difference between swapping an HPA tanki and a CO2 tank isn't all that much. Not enough to retune, although the co2 is SLOWER than the HPA even if they are near the same pressure (basically, co2 is "thick" while air is "thin").
As for the Talon, when I bought my SS, it came with a "free" Co2 adaptor, and I used it most often with a co2 tank attached. Short barrel in the SS, so it pretty well maxed out at about 13-15 foot pounds (in 5mm) but is sure gave a whole lot of shots per 9oz co2 tank, Actually, the gas use was kind of wastefull at that level, but were so many shots per 9oz tank, I didn't much care.