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All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Hunting Gate => Topic started by: SagaciousKJB on May 05, 2018, 12:18:12 AM
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Okay, so, I'm not particularly proud of this kill. I tried to make it as clean as possible, but things didn't go that way.
Pellet: 7.4 grain Crosman Destroyer with 13.1 FPE at the muzzle and a BC of ~.0104
1st Shot: ~15 yards with ~9.4 ft/lbs energy, straight side shot, aiming an eye-ball's width from the eye, directly in line with ear.
It hit, the animal jumped into the air, hit the ground and started flopping, then was obscured by my view.
Went up to retrieve it, and found it spinning in circles with blood pouring from its ear. It seemed dazed, it didn't run fro the fence line to escape the goat pen like it usually would, but I didn't want to try to run up and make it flee injured.
2nd Shot: ~10 yards with ~10.5 ft/lbs energy, aiming at heart/lungs
Wasn't able to tell the shot connected. The rabbit, turned, hopped a few yards, then stopped again.
3rd Shot: ~20 yards with ~8.5 ft/lbs energy, aiming at same spot behind eye, at a diagonal this time.
It hit, animal jumped into the air flailing its back legs, then hit the ground and did not run.
I approached and saw that it was STILL not dead and dispatched it manually. It would have died, but slowly. Maybe this was just a super tough rabbit, because it even took 3 thumps with a shovel. :(
I looked it over, and I could only find this one large blood spot on its head, and saw that heart/lung shot had gone completely through.
He was a very big rabbit, I put up a pic for comparison and to show the shot placement. That is a Crosman Vantage NP with a CenterPoint 4-16x40 on it. I'm guessing he weighed pretty close to 15 lbs. But I assumed a shot to the brain case should have only needed 5-6 ft/lbs from what I've read, and I should have had about double that.
It's my guess that the Crosman Destroyer is the wrong pellet for this. It sheds way too much energy, and with that wadcutter like profile, I think rather than penetrating the brain case, it was just walloping him. Either that or it was missing and just grazing him non-lethally, but I think if that were the case he wouldn't have behaved so strangely and would have just booked it.
I'm really confused how this is possible and honestly a little unhappy. Right now I've had two experiences with rabbits, and both are telling me that 12-14 ft/lbs is not enough for a humane rabbit kill.
Also, just as an aside, does this rabbit look safe to eat with that mangy fur? I was told it probably had a disease by the property owner. Apparently most of them around there look like that.
(https://i.imgur.com/aCaFHWo.jpg)
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The mangy looking fur is them shedding because its springtime.. at least that's what all furbearers do up here.
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Okay, so, I'm not particularly proud of this kill. I tried to make it as clean as possible, but things didn't go that way.
Pellet: 7.4 grain Crosman Destroyer with 13.1 FPE at the muzzle and a BC of ~.0104
1st Shot: ~15 yards with ~9.4 ft/lbs energy, straight side shot, aiming an eye-ball's width from the eye, directly in line with ear.
It hit, the animal jumped into the air, hit the ground and started flopping, then was obscured by my view.
Went up to retrieve it, and found it spinning in circles with blood pouring from its ear. It seemed dazed, it didn't run fro the fence line to escape the goat pen like it usually would, but I didn't want to try to run up and make it flee injured.
2nd Shot: ~10 yards with ~10.5 ft/lbs energy, aiming at heart/lungs
Wasn't able to tell the shot connected. The rabbit, turned, hopped a few yards, then stopped again.
3rd Shot: ~20 yards with ~8.5 ft/lbs energy, aiming at same spot behind eye, at a diagonal this time.
It hit, animal jumped into the air flailing its back legs, then hit the ground and did not run.
I approached and saw that it was STILL not dead and dispatched it manually. It would have died, but slowly. Maybe this was just a super tough rabbit, because it even took 3 thumps with a shovel. :(
I looked it over, and I could only find this one large blood spot on its head, and saw that heart/lung shot had gone completely through.
He was a very big rabbit, I put up a pic for comparison and to show the shot placement. That is a Crosman Vantage NP with a CenterPoint 4-16x40 on it. I'm guessing he weighed pretty close to 15 lbs. But I assumed a shot to the brain case should have only needed 5-6 ft/lbs from what I've read, and I should have had about double that.
It's my guess that the Crosman Destroyer is the wrong pellet for this. It sheds way too much energy, and with that wadcutter like profile, I think rather than penetrating the brain case, it was just walloping him. Either that or it was missing and just grazing him non-lethally, but I think if that were the case he wouldn't have behaved so strangely and would have just booked it.
I'm really confused how this is possible and honestly a little unhappy. Right now I've had two experiences with rabbits, and both are telling me that 12-14 ft/lbs is not enough for a humane rabbit kill.
Also, just as an aside, does this rabbit look safe to eat with that mangy fur? I was told it probably had a disease by the property owner. Apparently most of them around there look like that.
(https://i.imgur.com/aCaFHWo.jpg)
Sorry dude I know how you feel! I had the same thing happen to me with a crossman storm xt .177 cal. I could get clean kills on rats and birds but anything bigger there were issues. There could be a lot of things going on here but I think bullet mass is your problem. I know it was in my case. I went out and got a .22. cal rifle and shooting 14.66 h&N pellets one shot one kill. From rats to cats under 50 yards.
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Wonder if a dome pellet would do better. Those uk guys use 12 fpe and are dropping rabbits I their tracks. Andy's range is a good channel and he takes a few rabbits at 50 yds with his 97k and airarms pellets I believe.
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SagaciuosKJB, nature can be very tough indeed! Sorry it took that many shots and shovel to finish it...you tried your best to get a clean kill, doesn’t always work out that way.
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KJB...Wildlife can be tough, that is what it takes to survive in the wild. I have had good experiences with destroyers when they were 7.9 Gr pellets. When Crosman started making them in the US again they dropped to 7.4. Try a heaver expanding pellet next time. Best Wishes - Tom
P.S. KJB.....when Crosman made changes to the Destroyers I switched to the heaver 10.5 Gr Piranhas. They don't expand as much but they penetrate deeply by cutting their way in. I have done well with the Piranhas so far.
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The reason you needed that many shots is because none of your shots did enough tissue damage to the brain to cause a total shutdown of the cns. But it's not an uncommon occurrence, a rabbits brain is very, very small for the size of it's head.
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(http://i64.tinypic.com/xdxh13.jpg)
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step up to a 22 or 25 and you will not have that problem.thats what I did anyway.
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SagaciousKJB,
From what you describe it sounds like the rabbit was dead but what you saw was the involuntary muscle spasms. There's nothing you can do about it. Destroying the brain is the most humane kill, as there is no more consciousness, but the muscle spasms are a little disheartening. You did your job if there is no controlled locomotion, like crawling to cover.
Spine and vitals shots will sometimes result in cease of motion but death will take around 30 seconds, in my experience, as systems shut down due to blood loss and oxygen deprivation.
Taso
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NOT ENOUGH POWER Shooting a pellet such as that, or a wadcutter. neither has very much penetration and while it breaks threw the skin easy enough, simply does not keep going to do the damage required for a humane kill. USE DOME PELLETS and your knock down and DRT ratio will be much better
JMO ...
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I'm really confused how this is possible and honestly a little unhappy. Right now I've had two experiences with rabbits, and both are telling me that 12-14 ft/lbs is not enough for a humane rabbit kill.
Also, just as an aside, does this rabbit look safe to eat with that mangy fur? I was told it probably had a disease by the property owner. Apparently most of them around there look like that.
(https://i.imgur.com/aCaFHWo.jpg)
I've been hunting with air rifles since the Beeman R-1 was new to the market. I started with a .20 R-1 at 17 ft/lbs. But I bought a .177 Webley Omega running a tick under 12 ft/lbs a year later, and that gradually became my main small-game getter. They both killed rabbits out to 50 yards equally instantly dead but the Omega was easier to shoot accurately.
Presently, I have two R-9's that I use. A .20 at 14-15 ft/lbs and a .177 that I tuned to peak at 11.7.
You have plenty of power potential with 12-13 foot pounds, in my view. In fact, with the right pellets launched from that power level, they will have enough terminal ballistic clout to kill a rabbit out to 75 yards or so. In other words, you already have more terminal ballistic clout than you and your rifle can likely make use of. The pellets that will do that are all dome-head designs with relatively high ballistic coefficients from about .020 to .030 or so.
With an air rifle, you need two things to insure a clean kill: You need precision shot placement, and sufficient penetration. You need those things regardless of whether you shoot .177, .20, .22, or .25. That's why I shoot .177 most of the time; it shoots flat on modest spring-piston muzzle energy (so the rifle is easy to shoot well) and penetrates well with domed-head pellets.
Over three decades of small game hunting, most of the rabbits, squirrels, quail, and chukar partridge I've shot with an air rifle have been killed with a sub-12 ft/lb spring-piston air rifle in .177. If it didn't work for me, I wouldn't use it. I have a .20 R-9 running 14 to 15 ft/lbs that I could use instead if .177 at a peak of 11.7 ft/lbs didn't work, but about all I use the .20 for is turkey hunting, and that's because of California having a minimum caliber restriction of .20 for taking them with air rifles. If I could .177 instead, I would. The turkey would be just as dead, either way.
To put this in perspective, I do a lot of my small game hunting in the California High Desert, at elevations from about 2,000 to nearly 6,000' above sea level, where my rifle really isn't putting out the 11.7 ft/lbs it does at sea level. The animals I shoot are truly wild; not back garden pests that may not be too scared of people. If anybody should have a problem whacking bunnies with a sub-12 ft/lb springer in .177, it would be me, but I don't.
Placement and penetration........ Switch to a good dome-head like a Crosman Premier 7.9 or a JSB Exact 8.44 and see if your results don't improve. That should solve the penetration problem.
If you need a new rifle, you might need a more precise one, but I personally don't think you need a more powerful one, or one of larger caliber.
J.P.
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It happens. A few buddies and me were pesting at night for jack rabbits. We all of us shot one huge jack that refused to go down, took 9 jsbs from my at44 a few from my buddies guns, and a club to the head... all the shots where in the heart lung area, we called it "terminator"
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SagaciousKJB,
From what you describe it sounds like the rabbit was dead but what you saw was the involuntary muscle spasms. There's nothing you can do about it. Destroying the brain is the most humane kill, as there is no more consciousness, but the muscle spasms are a little disheartening. You did your job if there is no controlled locomotion, like crawling to cover.
Spine and vitals shots will sometimes result in cease of motion but death will take around 30 seconds, in my experience, as systems shut down do to blood loss and oxygen deprivation.
Taso
I agree 100%. The massive amount of blood coming from the ear denotes a perfect brain shot. You just over reacted, that's all.
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I have killed hundreds of cotton tails with a .177 benhamin 397 which is about 12ftlbs.
The brain is very small and with the .177 its easy to barely miss the brain and the rabbit to run away.
The .177 at 12ftlbs is just not enough to cause massive tissue damage.
As stated a .22 or .25 would be a better option.
I suggest use what you have.It got the job done.
If its killing for meat a brain shot.
Killing cause its a pest try a geart and lung shot.
Heart and lung yeilds a lil bigger killzone.
Limited to 12fpe I'd stay .177
Did you try ammo like the polymags?
They may expand your killzones a lil.
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At least you care enough to give it thought. If this isn't a normal occurrence I wouldn't worry to much. Changing pellets may make a difference though.
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When I was way younger, and more inexperienced in hunting, especially in using airguns for hunting, I repeatedly experienced the same thing that you and others are describing here, so I sensed that the solution was quite simple: Move to a larger caliber, especially for animals of the size we are talking about here, especially truly "wild" ones. Bingo, the .22 worked just fine, while the wimpy .177 was just too dang small in caliber, and in bullet weight. The larger the animal, the larger the caliber and bullet weight needed, especially if you find it wrong to have to get a clean kill by bashing them with a shovel. Stop trying to perform miracles, set aside your pride, and increase caliber and/or bullet weight; you will see huge differences. You will also find need to leave the shovel at home, where it belongs.....LOL.
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I think that pellet type and shot placement are the issues here. You have plenty of power. A .177 will easily achieve full pass thru on a rabbit at just 4-5fpe on impact.
My .177 hw97k shoots at 12fpe and I hunt with JSB 10.3 domes. CA ground squirrels are tough and it easily dropped about 20 this weekend at distances up to 40 yards.
R
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Those uk guys use 12 fpe and are dropping rabbits
I think that pellet type and shot placement are the issues here.
If you do switch to dome pellets, let us know the results. Although I'm pretty sure we know what that will be.
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Yeah Micobalistics :P are brutal and call for.. Bigger Cal. with domes or predator polymags.
Probably just his zombie last kicking from his lizard brain stem seriously.
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Yeah Micobalistics :P are brutal and call for.. Bigger Cal. with domes or predator polymags.
Probably just his zombie last kicking from his lizard brain stem seriously.
P. O. I.,
I'm ok with Micobalistics. For a second I thought Microballistics was rearing it's ugly head again from that last ridiculous thread. Thank goodness it's only Micobalistics! ;D
Taso
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If you aren’t working with extra FPE, I wouldn’t use any kind of expanding pellet.
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Okay, well, taking everyone's comments into consideration I decided to go watch some rabbit hunting videos on YouTube, specifically from the UK so I could gleam what I could about using this specific power level limit.
One thing I found interesting was one particular video where they skinned the rabbit's head of its fur and ears, and it really went to show how small the area is. It's really only one eye's width of brain-case to the side of the eye, and then about 1/4" - 3/8" (maybe more) of fur and tissue.
I think what happened is the first headshot only clipped its cerebellum by going a little high and to the right. If it had hit center or low, it would have disrupted the medulla oblongata and rendered it unconscious, and if it had a little left, would have hit the cerebrum and done the same. But only nicking the cerebellum left it spinning and shaking its head, as that portion of the brain is responsible for muscle coordination.
The second head shot must have entered more forward in the brain, either by POI being more on point, or because the rabbit's head was at an angle to me on that shot. It would have entered the back of hindbrain, and ended up in the cerebrum
I wanna add some links pertaining to this if that's all right?
This is the one where they show the rabbit's head skinned for comparison.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjzxoF8ajlc&t (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjzxoF8ajlc&t)
This one is just a really great view of a brain/skull cast Ohio State University did.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3y7Xrs77YE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3y7Xrs77YE)
(https://i.imgur.com/PEMTFdx.jpg)
I think I at least have a better understanding of what was happening now.
I'm wondering if after the first headshot when it was stunned and spinning around in circles if I could have just ran up and grabbed it to break its neck, or if anchoring it with the heart/lung shot actually was the best course of action. It did get me the final headshot, which was cleaner than I thought. I agree I overreacted, and then by the time I got the last headshot, I was only seeing the CNS spasming as signs of life, when in reality I was beating a dead rabbit.
Well I feel a tiny bit better now, but I'm still going to look into getting some better pellets. Interestingly enough, the YouTube host up there who does testing on the rabbit heads felt like the domes didn't do enough damage, but it seems like the overwhelming consensus is that domes are what you want for this.
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I raise rabbits for the dinner table and their brain is really really small. I shoot them from the back at the base of the head. This is an instant kill(like forever with rabbits....) I found that about mid skull(going forward from the back) it becomes a wounding shot. Blood through nose and all that horrible stuffs. I would recommend an, ear canal, or a medulla oblongata shot.
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Okay, well, taking everyone's comments into consideration I decided to go watch some rabbit hunting videos on YouTube, specifically from the UK so I could gleam what I could about using this specific power level limit.
One thing I found interesting was one particular video where they skinned the rabbit's head of its fur and ears, and it really went to show how small the area is. It's really only one eye's width of brain-case to the side of the eye, and then about 1/4" - 3/8" (maybe more) of fur and tissue.
I think what happened is the first headshot only clipped its cerebellum by going a little high and to the right. If it had hit center or low, it would have disrupted the medulla oblongata and rendered it unconscious, and if it had a little left, would have hit the cerebrum and done the same. But only nicking the cerebellum left it spinning and shaking its head, as that portion of the brain is responsible for muscle coordination.
The second head shot must have entered more forward in the brain, either by POI being more on point, or because the rabbit's head was at an angle to me on that shot. It would have entered the back of hindbrain, and ended up in the cerebrum
I wanna add some links pertaining to this if that's all right?
This is the one where they show the rabbit's head skinned for comparison.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjzxoF8ajlc&t (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjzxoF8ajlc&t)
This one is just a really great view of a brain/skull cast Ohio State University did.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3y7Xrs77YE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3y7Xrs77YE)
(https://i.imgur.com/PEMTFdx.jpg)
I think I at least have a better understanding of what was happening now.
I'm wondering if after the first headshot when it was stunned and spinning around in circles if I could have just ran up and grabbed it to break its neck, or if anchoring it with the heart/lung shot actually was the best course of action. It did get me the final headshot, which was cleaner than I thought. I agree I overreacted, and then by the time I got the last headshot, I was only seeing the CNS spasming as signs of life, when in reality I was beating a dead rabbit.
Well I feel a tiny bit better now, but I'm still going to look into getting some better pellets. Interestingly enough, the YouTube host up there who does testing on the rabbit heads felt like the domes didn't do enough damage, but it seems like the overwhelming consensus is that domes are what you want for this.
All joking aside. I commend your dedication to taking your responsibly for clean kills seriously enough to research your prey ant it's anatomy to increase your skills as a true hunter. Way to be bud. Good links for others too.
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I shot many cottontail's at 10 yards 35 or 40 years ago with the 760 .177 using Crosman pointed pellets and a couple with flat/wadcutter pellets. FPE was around 5.5 FPE at the muzzle, and 4.5 fpe on impact. I killed every one of them with a head/brain shot at 10-12yds. Some spun around before they died, and a few I had to follow up with a 2nd shot, but just to end it quicker. All were kill shots even if some did not have that immediate effect.
What you experienced is very normal since their brain is so small, and they are hard wired to jump & kick even when the brain is taken out. Especially with a .177 which does not inflict enough trauma or damage like a .22/25 or a .177 PCP or magnum springer with almost twice the energy you have. Try true hollow point pellets next time, or a soft domed pellet which also expands like JSB pellets.
Harry
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On that note: just a few day ago shot a jack with the .177 m-rod ( crosman 10.5 dome @ 900 fps ) right threw the head @ 3/8" under the ear canal with a side to side shot.
In one side and out the other .... WHAT a SHOW !!!
leaps and flops 4 foot+ into the air with virtually no real control being all spastic that lasted at least 10 seconds.
When it finally expired blood out BOTH ears, none from nose or mouth telling that cranial damage was all contained within the brain.
That really is disturbing to watch and you can't help but feel badly the rabbit is suffering and in some way aware it is among the walking dead :-[
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It deff takes a while for all of a rabbit's energy to dissipate. One time I skinned and gutted one so fast that I pulled out the heart and lungs together and it was still beating!!!