GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Vintage Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: 45flint on April 16, 2018, 06:37:15 PM
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The find of the day at Findlay. I know many of you are not into old vintage springers but guns like this is why I go to Airgun Shows. It was love at first sight and I knew what it was but it was not until I got home and researched it did I realize I have one of the first Model 50b’s made. This was Diana’s Target Model made from 1952-1965. Another variation would go on to 1987. My trigger having one adjusting screw is characteristic of prewar so these were probably used on the first guns. Makes it probably 1952-3? 65 years old. But amazingly it looks about brand new, hard for me to believe really. You can thumb through a series of picks here.
https://imgur.com/gallery/NCQ5M (https://imgur.com/gallery/NCQ5M)
The Diana 50b rifle has the most amazingly flexible sighting system I have ever encountered on a rifle. I am attaching a slide show to illustrate. First at the tip of the barrel is a rotary dial which by turning can rotate an internal “star” that has 4 different sighting posts. At the rear sight you have the peep which can be removed to reveal a plate which can be rotated to give you 4 different types of open sight notches. If you desire the open sight there is a dovetail plate on the middle of the rifle where the rear assembly can be mounted to give the proper distancing. You don’t see this every day, just a lot of fun to see it all work. Will I use it all probably not, but who cares. The open sights would add to the long stock military look? I think thumbing through the pics will illustrate.
https://imgur.com/gallery/3B2bM (https://imgur.com/gallery/3B2bM)
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Fantastic find!!
I was going to be there this year but went to the Indiana shoot instead.
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Fascinating. I'd love to see someone build sights like that to mount as replacements.
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Nice find Steve,
You've got a good eye for the unusual and very collectable.
You must have quite a collection by now.
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Nice find Steve,
You've got a good eye for the unusual and very collectable.
You must have quite a collection by now.
Been lucky as well, but it could be what I tend to like doesn’t interest eveyone. You are right, I love the unusual, made with blued milled steal. The Beeman C1 is about the only fairly new gun I have bought, but the attraction is that it is just so odd and unique. A carbine springer with a “Winchester” stock design by Beeman. But part of the love was a low price I thought.
I need to take a family photo of the collection, it’s been a trip since I retired.
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Very nice indeed.
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Super, just super!
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Congratulations Steve ! That's a real WOW Rifle ! Best Wishes - Tom
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Beautiful rifle Steve. Both front sight & peep are great but that front sight is way cooooool!
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Beautiful rifle Steve. Both front sight & peep are great but that front sight is way cooooool!
That’s the joy of collecting, never knew what that front sight did till I brought it home and read about it on line.
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That's an amazing find! I have to wonder where it spent life to remain in such good condition.
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Beautiful rifle Steve. Both front sight & peep are great but that front sight is way cooooool!
That’s the joy of collecting, never knew what that front sight did till I brought it home and read about it on line.
I would be interested in knowing how POI holds or doesn’t hold when sights are rotated.
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Beautiful rifle Steve. Both front sight & peep are great but that front sight is way cooooool!
That’s the joy of collecting, never knew what that front sight did till I brought it home and read about it on line.
I would be interested in knowing how POI holds or doesn’t hold when sights are rotated.
Marty you are all about shooting! This is collecting, lol. I will let you know but we were greeted this money with a little snow, so right now it’s just lubrication and a quick Chrony.
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That's an amazing find! I have to wonder where it spent life to remain in such good condition.
I often wonder this as I collect older guns in excellent shape. But it probably speaks that many people buy guns but some rarely use them. It was probably in a closet for a lot of years. It is sometimes a strange feeling holding a old gun in almost new condition. Like a time machine. This year I bought a 1924 Webley Target Pistol that was in as new condition 95 years old, crazy. It was still in the box, but the box looked every bit of 95 years old.
(https://i.imgur.com/zcrH05m.jpg)
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Beautiful rifle Steve. Both front sight & peep are great but that front sight is way cooooool!
That’s the joy of collecting, never knew what that front sight did till I brought it home and read about it on line.
I would be interested in knowing how POI holds or doesn’t hold when sights are rotated.
Marty you are all about shooting! This is collecting, lol. I will let you know but we were greeted this money with a little snow, so right now it’s just lubrication and a quick Chrony.
Guilty as charged but it would also pertain to the design & what the maker had in mind when he/she envisioned the feature which at that time would have been way outside the box. I would think even a collector would be interested as to its origin, history, & purpose. I doubt if there is a way to tell for certain if it was meant to use on the fly. I am sure if this was its intended use every part of the mechanism would have to be in as new condition as possible. However, my gut tells me it would have to be sighted in at each individual setting.
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Beautiful rifle Steve. Both front sight & peep are great but that front sight is way cooooool!
That’s the joy of collecting, never knew what that front sight did till I brought it home and read about it on line.
I would be interested in knowing how POI holds or doesn’t hold when sights are rotated.
Marty you are all about shooting! This is collecting, lol. I will let you know but we were greeted this money with a little snow, so right now it’s just lubrication and a quick Chrony.
Guilty as charged but it would also pertain to the design & what the maker had in mind when he/she envisioned the feature which at that time would have been way outside the box. I would think even a collector would be interested as to its origin, history, & purpose. I doubt if there is a way to tell for certain if it was meant to use on the fly. I am sure if this was its intended use every part of the mechanism would have to be in as new condition as possible. However, my gut tells me it would have to be sighted in at each individual setting.
Will be interesting to see? I would imagine that a owner would probably have one post he likes the most and settle on it. That may be different for the open sight vs the peep. Also if the open sight is used you would move the back sight assembly to the other mid rail. Will that hold true? I actual am going to try that today cause I like the military look of the open sight. What you may be underestimating is the precision German engineering and machining in these old guns. We will see, wonder if my old eyes will even be able to test the difference?
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https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/yellow/diana-model-50-a-target-rifle-t165956.html (https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/yellow/diana-model-50-a-target-rifle-t165956.html)
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Wow Jeff, where do you find this stuff? I would imagine Steve is about to have a coronary about now.
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I believe I saw this Model at a GTA meet.
Maybe even the one in the link above!
;)
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The guy who wrote this has posted on my rifle he’s from Tennessee. Yes it’s funny how a single screw in a trigger can get you excited. To me it even more interesting that mine has no hole in the trigger guard, haven’t seen any others? Transition from prewar? Or they forgot to drill. Lol
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Where did Mike post at?
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Where did Mike post at?
Sorry it was on another English site I’m on, he posts about halfway down, knowledgeable fellow.
http://www.airgunbbs.com/showthread.php?824169-Help-IDing-Diana-Model-50 (http://www.airgunbbs.com/showthread.php?824169-Help-IDing-Diana-Model-50)
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He is a member here at GTA.
I'm pretty sure he was at one of the GTA meets in Kentucky in the last 3 years.
I know that I saw that front sight system there.
Lizzie, one of our Moderators here, has a Model 50 also.
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He is a member here at GTA.
I'm pretty sure he was at one of the GTA meets in Kentucky in the last 3 years.
I know that I saw that front sight system there.
Yes when I was researching on the internet some of his GTA posts came up. Be fun to meet up with him. That English site is just hard to beat for older European guns, the English live and breath vintage Airguns it’s in their heritage.
Do the Kentucky meets have any vintage shooting? I’m not far away here in Ohio
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I'm pretty sure it was the 2016 meet in Kentucky.
I didn't have the Diana Mod 27 at the 2015 meet as I got that in October 2015.
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Steve,
The KY airgun meet you asked about is moving to Arkansas this year. See the gate at the beginning of the Forum page.
Steve
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Steve,
The KY airgun meet you asked about is moving to Arkansas this year. See the gate at the beginning of the Forum page.
Steve
Close to far far away! Lol
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I plan on going Steve. If your interested perhaps we can share the trip?
This is the ride I plan to take.
(http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n12/privateer_2006/Air%20Rifles/Diana/100_1940.jpg)
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I plan on going Steve. If your interested perhaps we can share the trip?
This is the ride I plan to take.
(http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n12/privateer_2006/Air%20Rifles/Diana/100_1940.jpg)
That’s very generous got to look at the shoot and see if it make sense for me. I’m a vintage guy have to see if there’s shooting that makes sense for me?
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Beautiful rifle Steve. Both front sight & peep are great but that front sight is way cooooool!
That’s the joy of collecting, never knew what that front sight did till I brought it home and read about it on line.
I would be interested in knowing how POI holds or doesn’t hold when sights are rotated.
Finally another warm day and I was sighting in the Diana. To start it was about dead on. Obviously it’s a used gun and someone used it for target. But it’s a springer and each persons individual hold can make a difference. I made a very slight adjustment. The rotary front sight held very true but I found I use different posts differently. I started with the simply post, holding so target sits on top. I found my favorite was the small bead, holding the bead right on center of target. This hold made me lower the POA a little. These sights are extremely robust and accurate. Shooting this gun you feel like you are shooting a German WW2 Kar98, given where and when it was made that’s probably no accident. Just like the 1949 Crosman 108 is so much like a M1 Garrand.
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Steve, this statement was on the link provided by Jeff, which by the way is over the top with the author’s exceptional photographs & expert explanations for each; The unusual-looking front sight contains a rotating element with four different posts. Each of these mates to a corresponding notch in the rear sight.
The way I interpret this is once the rifle is sighted in with one site the rear sight makes adjustments for the other 3 so that POI does not change. It would be interesting to know if this is in fact the case.
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Steve, this statement was on the link provided by Jeff, which by the way is over the top with the author’s exceptional photographs & expert explanations for each; The unusual-looking front sight contains a rotating element with four different posts. Each of these mates to a corresponding notch in the rear sight.
The way I interpret this is once the rifle is sighted in with one site the rear sight makes adjustments for the other 3 so that POI does not change. It would be interesting to know if this is in fact the case.
I would have to relocate the sight to the mid position. Haven’t fiquired out how to do that yet? I took the most likely screw out and it didn’t move. I am reluctant to see if I need to tap it off given I may be missing something and this gun is so perfect I’m paranoid I’m going to screw something up. Lol. May ask that guy from Tennessee. But given my experience so far, I would bet money it will hold. To be continued or not?
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I'm not sure if this helps but 3rd post of this link by MDriskell goes into some detail about the rear sight.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2017/09/the-diana-model-50-underlever-part-3/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2017/09/the-diana-model-50-underlever-part-3/)
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I'm not sure if this helps but 3rd post of this link by MDriskell goes into some detail about the rear sight.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2017/09/the-diana-model-50-underlever-part-3/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2017/09/the-diana-model-50-underlever-part-3/)
Good find Mate!
8)
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I actually emailed Mike Driskill and he’s going to get back with me tonight, some people must work? Lol. Thanks the amazing thing about the internet, you can make friend from far away places that have the same interests as you.
I doubt you can find a post on the Diana 50 I haven’t read twice! Those reviews from Tom Gaylord are awesome, he is so knowledgeable, he did a great review on my Crosman 108 as well. I was hoping he would be at the Findlay Airgun Show so I could meet him, but he was a no show this year.
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I'm not sure if this helps but 3rd post of this link by MDriskell goes into some detail about the rear sight.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2017/09/the-diana-model-50-underlever-part-3/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2017/09/the-diana-model-50-underlever-part-3/)
Good find Mate!
8)
Just following your lead. ;)
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Where did Mike post at?
Sorry it was on another English site I’m on, he posts about halfway down, knowledgeable fellow.
http://www.airgunbbs.com/showthread.php?824169-Help-IDing-Diana-Model-50 (http://www.airgunbbs.com/showthread.php?824169-Help-IDing-Diana-Model-50)
I’m not sure “old and weird” is exactly the same as “knowledgeable,” but hey, I’ll take it.
I have three variations of these nifty older model 50’s. Thanks to the new archive version of the defunct Yellow Forum, which has somehow magically leapt over the Photobucket debacle, here are old posts on them:
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/AmericanVintageAirguns/paper-punching-underlever-no-2-diana-model-50-b-t2965.html (https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/AmericanVintageAirguns/paper-punching-underlever-no-2-diana-model-50-b-t2965.html)
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/yellow/diana-model-50-a-target-rifle-t165956.html (https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/yellow/diana-model-50-a-target-rifle-t165956.html)
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/AmericanVintageAirguns/peerless-50m-t3788.html (https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/AmericanVintageAirguns/peerless-50m-t3788.html)
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Steve, this statement was on the link provided by Jeff, which by the way is over the top with the author’s exceptional photographs & expert explanations for each; The unusual-looking front sight contains a rotating element with four different posts. Each of these mates to a corresponding notch in the rear sight.
The way I interpret this is once the rifle is sighted in with one site the rear sight makes adjustments for the other 3 so that POI does not change. It would be interesting to know if this is in fact the case.
The front posts are exactly the same height and lock firmly into place perpendicular to the barrel. So in theory the POI remains the same, though in the real world you might hold each one a bit differently of course. The posts are a fine bead, coarse bead, pointed “barleycorn,” and straight rectangular.
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Steve, this statement was on the link provided by Jeff, which by the way is over the top with the author’s exceptional photographs & expert explanations for each; The unusual-looking front sight contains a rotating element with four different posts. Each of these mates to a corresponding notch in the rear sight.
The way I interpret this is once the rifle is sighted in with one site the rear sight makes adjustments for the other 3 so that POI does not change. It would be interesting to know if this is in fact the case.
The front posts are exactly the same height and lock firmly into place perpendicular to the barrel. So in theory the POI remains the same, though in the real world you might hold each one a bit differently of course. The posts are a fine bead, coarse bead, pointed “barleycorn,” and straight rectangular.
Mike, first off your photo's & detailed info are to be commended. I wish someone would give us the same detailed photo's for Sheridan's & the Benjamin 392P & 397P. ;)
My question is; you mentioned above that each front sight matches with a corresponding notch in the rear sight. Can you provide more detail on how this system works?
Thank you.
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Mike yesterday was so helpful sending me pics of his sight and how to remove it. He told me that there was a rubber gasket that had probably deteriorated given age and I just needed to tap the sight free. Well, he nailed it. I loosened the single retaining screw and just used my hand to tap a few times and it came free. See pics of the red gasket. Very cool design, see the ribs in the sight pad that lock down onto similar ribs on the gun. Have my sight now in the up position without the diopter. Like that military look. I will today to tomorrow (still cold) run through the the four posts and back sights and will see how they work.
(https://i.imgur.com/hNS9axA.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1UC4rt4.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/KBRXVhN.jpg)
I guess to me what is impressive to start out with, as I shot today having taken off my diopter sight and moved my now open sight to the front position, the point of aim is still pretty much still on? This is without sand bags just arm resting on my shooting table with old blurry eyes. Lol. Too cold had to come in.
Diopter:
(https://i.imgur.com/TPwPWDF.jpg)
Open sight from new rail:
(https://i.imgur.com/VBeudsP.jpg)
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“My question is; you mentioned above that each front sight matches with a corresponding notch in the rear sight. Can you provide more detail on how this system works?”
Well nothing says you can’t use any combo of front post and rear notch that strikes your fancy, but they do seem to roughly correspond.
There is a “V”-shaped notch to go with the pointed barleycorn front, a square notch for that straight post, a small semi-circular notch for the small bead, and a very large semi-circular notch for the fat bead. The latter must also be used with the peep attachment, the others would block the view through the aperture.
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Mike, Were you at one of the GTA meets in Kentucky?
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“My question is; you mentioned above that each front sight matches with a corresponding notch in the rear sight. Can you provide more detail on how this system works?”
Well nothing says you can’t use any combo of front post and rear notch that strikes your fancy, but they do seem to roughly correspond.
There is a “V”-shaped notch to go with the pointed barleycorn front, a square notch for that straight post, a small semi-circular notch for the small bead, and a very large semi-circular notch for the fat bead. The latter must also be used with the peep attachment, the others would block the view through the aperture.
I took a closer look at the rear sight & the light finally turned on as to what the "notches" are. Is their a set screw or does the rear sight actually rotate to the different notches?
Thanks
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“My question is; you mentioned above that each front sight matches with a corresponding notch in the rear sight. Can you provide more detail on how this system works?”
Well nothing says you can’t use any combo of front post and rear notch that strikes your fancy, but they do seem to roughly correspond.
There is a “V”-shaped notch to go with the pointed barleycorn front, a square notch for that straight post, a small semi-circular notch for the small bead, and a very large semi-circular notch for the fat bead. The latter must also be used with the peep attachment, the others would block the view through the aperture.
I took a closer look at the rear sight & the light finally turned on as to what the "notches" are. Is their a set screw or does the rear sight actually rotate to the different notches?
Thanks
This plate pulls out held by spring retainer and can rotate into 4 positions each giving a different notch.
(https://i.imgur.com/98I9XiI.jpg)
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That's the pic I was searching for. Incredable engineering.
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That's the pic I was searching for. Incredable engineering.
Has a ball bearing trigger, that’s new to me.
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For a guy that isn't in to shooting you posted up some nice groups. I would be interested in this guns fps & fpe. You think you might be able to dyno her?
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BTW; that one notch is huge. Can you post a pic of the front sight that matches up with it?
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BTW; that one notch is huge. Can you post a pic of the front sight that matches up with it?
Yes lol, it’s so large cause it’s to match up with the diopter and not interfer.
(https://i.imgur.com/rgwUjcy.jpg)
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I was going to say…not sure what that bead would be used for unless you’re hunting in Africa with a fire arm. lol
Makes perfect sense now. ;)
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For a guy that isn't in to shooting you posted up some nice groups. I would be interested in this guns fps & fpe. You think you might be able to dyno her?
Here is where your going to be disappointed! The FPS with 7 grain Hobbys is 650. FPE is 6.7?
It’s a target gun not a hunting gun. Remember this is 1952 people much less concerned about power. What this is, is the perfect backyard gun. Easy to cock, no noise, and very controlled spring vibration. I bought a Beeman C1 at the same show and it is 880 FPS. A little beast, very cool but loud, and a real kick. Interesting in Germany right now they have a 6 FPE limit. This gun goes for a premium over there cause it’s grandfathered. Lol
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Not at all disappointed Steve. In fact that’s not bad for a first go-round. I bet the alcohol flush would give you significant gains. Although I doubt you would want to risk trying it on this gun.
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For a guy that isn't in to shooting you posted up some nice groups. I would be interested in this guns fps & fpe. You think you might be able to dyno her?
Here is where your going to be disappointed! The FPS with 7 grain Hobbys is 650. FPE is 6.7?
It’s a target gun not a hunting gun. Remember this is 1952 people much less concerned about power. What this is, is the perfect backyard gun. Easy to cock, no noise, and very controlled spring vibration. I bought a Beeman C1 at the same show and it is 880 FPS. A little beast, very cool but loud, and a real kick. Interesting in Germany right now they have a 6 FPE limit. This gun goes for a premium over there cause it’s grandfathered. Lol
Very true, the model 50 is a big old, macho-looking, 8-pound gun...that has R7 power!
The model 50 shared most of its aft-end parts with the model 35 barrel-cocker; they have the same piston, spring, and trigger. The 35 is roughly a 700 FPS gun—quite a hottie for the 1950’s—but the 50 has a long transfer port and the volume of the tap itself to overcome; you lose power but gain smoothness.
On the plus side, I’ve noticed that the springs in the older Dianas are of truly amazing quality. They will shoot at full power for a loooooooong time if you take good care of the gun.
In the late 70’s and early 80’s, Diana made the model 50 T01, with shared its rear end with the model 45 barrel-cocker (the 45 was Diana’s first “magnum” competitor for the HW 35 and FWB 124, etc.). Again, the tap loader gives up some speed, yet the 50 T01 will sneak over 800 FPS with light ammo, and may be the hardest-shooting of all traditional tap-loading underlever designs.
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Mike, Were you at one of the GTA meets in Kentucky?
I have not been to one...but it sounds like a habit I need to start!
;D
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Not at all disappointed Steve. In fact that’s not bad for a first go-round. I bet the alcohol flush would give you significant gains. Although I doubt you would want to risk trying it on this gun.
I’m pretty sure a alcohol flush is more for pumpers. This gun is so clean when I got it about new. The 650 FPS was the rating when new. Only thing to do with this was to put some oil down the tap to soak the leather piston seal. As Mike said these springs were made to last, same with the leather seals. Much rather have leather seals than plastic ones over time they can turn to mush. Early guns just seem to go on and on if treated right.