GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: elh0102 on March 24, 2018, 08:31:28 PM
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I have a few very nice air rifles. My only spring gun is an HW97 in .177 with 12 fpe Vortek kit. My PCP rifles inculde a Daystate Regal XL .22, and two RAW HM1000 rifles, in .22 and .177. They all shoot great. My experience with the 12 fpe spring gun has proven to me, the American love of power and speed is not necessarily justified. I know that Daystate and Air Arms make Hunter Class FT rifles in 12 fpe versions. These appeal to me, as the shot count would be high enough that I could forgo bringing the air tank along for most trips to the plinking or target range. I would appreciate any input from folks who might have such rifles, and information about sales outlets.
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I don't have a Daystate or an AirArms but I do have a modified Crosman 2240 that's running a .13cu.in. HPA regulated tank with an output pressure of 900 psi. It is .177 caliber and with 7.9 grain pellets does right around 10.7 ft/lbs. It gets a ton of shots per fill and has taken rabbits with head shots well past 40 yards. I agree that the "more is better" theme when it comes to airguns is really not needed and is just a selling point for those who don't know any better. I would rather have an accurate airgun that shoots less than 800 fps than one that goes well over 1000 fps and never hits the same place twice.
I need to know I can trust my airgun to hit where I'm aiming each and every shot to be confident when hunting. I wish more folks would understand that you can do alot with 12 ft/lbs or less.
Ray
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I have several PCP's that I'm running at 12fpe. I do like the ability to dial up if need be, but unless wind is an issue, I tend to find 12fpe in .177 is plenty for what I do. ...and as you've mentioned, the shot count is a plus.
Not sure what else to say regarding except you are certainly not alone in your enjoyment of the lower powered guns.
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I'm just the opposite, I have a .25 cal Maruader and I want the highest FPE I can get. But, I use mine for pest control so I want a clean kill. I'm at 45 fpe now and working on getting that up. I understand the want of a long shot count but I'm willing to sacrifice that for power.
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For a .177, 12 foot pounds is a pretty good energy level for most folks everyday shooting/practice sessions.
Do believe in power and larger clibers where needed, but when it's not needed it just complicates a practice session with lower shot counts (less time actually shooting), more noise, a heavier safe backstop.
For the same reasons that a tool box is not full of nothing but hammers, your airgun collection should also be geared to a wider range of choices.
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i have both and shoot fieldtarget at 12. I also have a BAM50 that I turned down to shoot 10.3 jsb pellets at just under 500fps. This makes for about as close to zero noise as I can get. For a backyard plinking where all the distances are known it’s great, it is just enough oomph to reset the Gamo fieldtargets.
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I'm just the opposite, I have a .25 cal Maruader and I want the highest FPE I can get. But, I use mine for pest control so I want a clean kill. I'm at 45 fpe now and working on getting that up. I understand the want of a long shot count but I'm willing to sacrifice that for power.
What pests are you trying to eliminate where you need 43 fpe and more for a clean kill? Everything up to the size of coons can be cleanly killed with 12 - 15 fpe and many do it with sub 12 fpe with no issue. Shot placement is the key to clean kills not over power.
I have a couple pcp that I have tuned for lower power. The benefit is huge shot counts and almost a completely silent shot. When you have a good ldc on a 12 fpe pcp you really do get mouse fart quiet. In many of my videos where I am pesting starlings and sparrows people post comments about the shots saying it looks like I was using a .25 or high power .22 airgun. The slow motion video shows just how hard a .177 shooting at 10 fpe really hits sparrows and starlings when shot placement is good. I prefer 10 - 15 fpe for bird pesting out to 40 - 50 yds if conditions are not real windy. If I need a completely silent shot on even a coon sized pest at night out to 25 yds I will grab my S510 .22 thats tuned for 15 fpe. The S510 is dead silent and puts the pellets into a pellet sized hole at 25 yds so its perfect for that type of shot.
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It makes more sense in .177 than anything larger. decent BC pellet at, like the 8.4 gr. JSB at 800fps, works out (over moderate distances) a lot better than .22'a13.5gr. at 630fps.
As for the M-rod .25. Human senses do not seem to be able to differentiate between a 10% change. So if the energy is 45, it's going to have to get to 50 (or drop to 40) befor you really see a human-noticeable change.
Not that you cannot show a small difference when bench-rest/lab testig controlled conditions and notice a 5% difference, but in the "real world" free-form-hunting, it takers about 10% difference in trajectory/energy/accuracy before your mind starts thinking "this be better".
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Here in the UK we don't get the options that you have in the USA as we need a licence to own anything over 12 fpe. On small quarry such as rabbits and pigeon our rifles are effective out to 50 yards or so and it's accuracy that fails before energy for head shots. Body shots aren't normally taken. As others have said you will get a higher shot count and less noise which helps as the UK is quite densely populated and keeping a low profile isn't a bad thing. A lot of vermin shooting is done in and around buildings where high power is likely to cause damage, some shooters will use lower powered rifles inside barns etc where shots can be taken at 10 - 15 yards at rats or maybe pigeon sitting on roof beams.
Higher power is more useful on larger quarry but it's not likely to be used here as a .22lr or centrefire rifle would be more efficient and, for larger game, the only type that would be permitted.
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I'm just the opposite, I have a .25 cal Maruader and I want the highest FPE I can get. But, I use mine for pest control so I want a clean kill. I'm at 45 fpe now and working on getting that up. I understand the want of a long shot count but I'm willing to sacrifice that for power.
What pests are you trying to eliminate where you need 43 fpe and more for a clean kill? Everything up to the size of coons can be cleanly killed with 12 - 15 fpe and many do it with sub 12 fpe with no issue. Shot placement is the key to clean kills not over power.
I have a couple pcp that I have tuned for lower power. The benefit is huge shot counts and almost a completely silent shot. When you have a good ldc on a 12 fpe pcp you really do get mouse fart quiet. In many of my videos where I am pesting starlings and sparrows people post comments about the shots saying it looks like I was using a .25 or high power .22 airgun. The slow motion video shows just how hard a .177 shooting at 10 fpe really hits sparrows and starlings when shot placement is good. I prefer 10 - 15 fpe for bird pesting out to 40 - 50 yds if conditions are not real windy. If I need a completely silent shot on even a coon sized pest at night out to 25 yds I will grab my S510 .22 thats tuned for 15 fpe. The S510 is dead silent and puts the pellets into a pellet sized hole at 25 yds so its perfect for that type of shot.
99% of my kills are rabbits @ 30-40 yds. With my PCP I get a +/- 1/4" trajectory so shot placement isn't a problem. I just like a lot of power. Up until last year when I bought the Marauder, I used my FWB 124 .177 & my D34 .22 to do the job. Never had a problem getting it done with either one of those. Before I got my air rifles, I used my Ruger .357 and my .22 PB for the task. As far as quiet goes the PCP is very quiet. I've shot rabbits while my neighbor was standing 40 feet away and didn't hear the shot. I just like the power !! To each his own.
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Air guns are definitely guns of PRECISION. Virtually none of them have the power of a lowly .22LR. If a small animal has either a .177 or .25 pellet go through its brain, it's going to die. Trading accuracy for power is always a bad trade for these guns.
THAT being said... Have you ever held a .177 pellet next to a .25? The difference is gargantuan! It's like comparing a .22LR to a 40 S&W! Yea, both will kill a person, but all else being equal... not very many people are going to choose to use a .22LR for self defense.
I have .177, .22 and .25 air rifles. For hunting, there's no comparison between a .177 and .25. I rarely even shoot anything with the .22 anymore. The .25 gets all the hunting action. It's simply far more devastating, and anchors far more prey in its tracks than the others. Fewer fly-offs, and crawl offs. Plus, hearing the THWACK of the pellet hitting its target is very satisfying. 8)
If there is no trade-off in accuracy... it's a no-brainer to use the larger caliber. Plus, they offer far better downrange power and ballistics.
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I have .177, .22 and .25 air rifles. For hunting, there's no comparison between a .177 and .25. .
There are no comparisons to be made there, but they both do indeed each have their merits.
The .25 will always create a larger wound channel, allowing a slightly misplaced shot to still be somewhat effective for body shots & allowing the animal to bleed out faster, whereas a heavy .177 will give greater penetration & go through bone easier, which is better for taking brain shots on tougher animals. When shooting both at similar energy levels & using pellets with a BC as close as possible to each other, the .177 will penetrate deeper.
Each has their merits, but don't discount the .177, it will surprise you what a little extra penetration can accomplish.
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OK...have tried this now 4 times....which is due to JSB for making so nearly the same weight pellets in different calibers.
Can have 13.4gr-13.5gr. in .177/5mm/ and 22.
run them at the same speed, you get the same energy. TOTALLY, agree, could well run them at different speeds for different energy levels. But if you want to keep "same-same" with only one variable in a test, you'd run the same weight at the same speed for the same energy, with just ONE variable to test (DIAMETER).
Basically NOTHING different...same weight, same speed, same energy, same pellet shape (RN)..all three calibers run one hunting season at 12ish foot pounds, then at another hunting season at 20 foot pounds.
Can have 21-22.5gre. in 5mm (the old EunJins), .22, and 25caliber and run the test again at something like 40-50 foot pounds.
My personal hunting experience for these tests during hunting seasons:
1. Pellet transitioned the "off switch" (heart/brain)= no real difference...they fell down dead. (OK...know our anatomy, the heart may not be where you expect it to be...so once you kill a critter, dissect it and figure out where the heart/larg high pressure systems actually are. And the "brain" is not always a head shot...it's the upper section (with sloped bone guarding it) above and behind the eyes.).
2. Almost right: If you are close to the off switch, bigger/fatter pellets DO SEEM to help.
3. Away from the "off switch' and they all run away. Does sseem like the ones with the bigger holes that didn't hit the "off switch" don't run as far, but recovery is more a matter of the lay of the land tha what smacked them in the "guts".
Just a desenting view....the guy who will ONLY take shots for the "off swich" with a .177 will probably gatheras much game as any other caliber.
NOW big pellet shooters don't take this wrong. When I go out to shoot somthing big (like a raccon or opposum), I will take a bigger caliber/hihger energy.heaveir pellet to do it. Thats a matter of a thick critter needing the higher SD of a heavy/long pellet....buyt not where I intend to place that pellet to trasect the "good bits".
So it may just be me...but the three things I folow for small game killing are these:
1. With enough energy/SD, can pretty well predict ther penetration.
2. Put the pellet though the "off swich" and the critter falls down dead.
3. Take a shot outside the KNOWN BY TESTING accuracry-vs. of-swirch RATIO,are always domed to the one that run-ff and go away (likly to die a week or two later from long suffering infection).
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Hmmmm: In 1988; all that I remember being available Were English made Sub-12 fp air rifles... My new [at that time =Expensive!] GC-2 included both .177 and .22 barrels. [11.9 ft. lbs.] I began shooting Field Target at AA. Used the .22 only 1 time=Too much trajectory!
Cant has a Big influence on the target; as well as wind. [The lower the power; the more influence that Cant and Wind affect the pellet=Very Important!]
Being American; and "Can't have Too Much Power!" [At that time....] I proceeded to tear Everything down; attempted to: reengineer/modify/soup-up/ect. FOR MORE POWER! Most of the time; was a waste of time/effort/materials/money. Most of the time: it was a "Trade-off" usually, smoothness for power. Example: GC-2 gained power/lost trigger smoothness. [and less shots per fill]
Other than just cleaning the barrel; my GC-2 needed nothing no "blue printing" needed. [unlike my new Nova Freedom] just Air/pellets/shooting.
If I had just shot my rifles More [and "tinkered less..] I would have a Big Box of Trophies, instead of just a few.
Later, Gerald
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OK...have tried this now 4 times....which is due to JSB for making so nearly the same weight pellets in different calibers.
Can have 13.4gr-13.5gr. in .177/5mm/ and 22.
run them at the same speed, you get the same energy. TOTALLY, agree, could well run them at different speeds for different energy levels. But if you want to keep "same-same" with only one variable in a test, you'd run the same weight at the same speed for the same energy, with just ONE variable to test (DIAMETER).
I'm not handicapping myself to running a .177 and .22 and a .25 AT THE SAME ENERGY. My guns will shoot all the calibers at around the same speed... so naturally, the bigger guns are more powerful... and are the ones I pick up when I want to shoot something.
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I love my 12ft/lb pcp's but only run them at that power because HFT/FT competition doesn't allow more..
Only have the cz's .177 running at 12ft/lb at the moment but in the process of converting one of the .20 rapids to HFT spec.
The cz can easily be set to 20ft/lbs but shotcount is nearly cut in half and noise goes up considerably.
Up to 50yard there shouldn't be much to gain accuracy wise by adding power sometimes your rifle could even become less accurate because of the harsher shotcycle and additional muzzle flip/recoil.
I usually tune for the optimal speed for my barrel's favorite pellet regardless of power.
Only when rules require I would tune for a specific power level.
If your platform makes more power,go up in caliber and maintain optimal speed with proper ammo instead of using mega heavy pellets or going supersonic.
The amount of quarry taken in the UK with sub 12ft/lbs should be sufficient proof for the usability of a 12ft/lb air rifle in the field.
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Yes, this is America! We want EVERYTHING bigger! And more powerful! It's just the way we are.
I have watched a plethora of UK hunting vids with clean kills at 40-50 yards (even some further) with under 12fpe guns. They do just fine. I am in agreement with most people here, about better shot placement and count, rather than speed and power.
I do not plan to stop a car with my pellet rifle, or shoot hogs. Some people might, which is fine.
Some air guns do over 200 fpe for two or three shots, which is enough for fair - big size game. I only shoot .22 at short ranges, so 20fpe is WAAAAY enough for me. As long as I can hit my target EVERYTIME. And many more time after that.
I own four PCPs with power up to 40fpe, and now I am starting to tune them down for more count and accuracy. My Gauntlet with a 23ci tank will yield over 140 shots at mid 800 fps for 25 fpe of power. But it puts them all in the same hole I aim for. I am about to cut back to 800 fps for over 200 shots!
My bottle Prod averages 15 fpe (almost anything I feed it from 13.5-16gr pellets, and will make one hole for over 120 shots! Avg speed 650-750 (depending on pellet).
It's funny, that we still quest for 5.7 liter and 6+ liter cars, and yet our speed limit is 30-70mph, whereas in Europe they buy <1 liter to 1.6 liter cars and get to go over 100mph! Same thing on our airguns.
To each his own! This was just my 2 cents worth (and THAT is all it's worth)
Cheers
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No comparison betwqeen .177/22/25?
Depends on what you are comparing.
If you are comparing weight and muzzle energy, then can start a 20 to 21 gr. pellet in ANY of the three calibers at the same speed, same energy, and then compare.
Could compare DIFFERENT weights at the same velocity, which would produce different energy outputs
Could compare different weights./brands/BC's over a wide range of weights/ enetgy levels and compare.
Onbject of the orginal post was 12 foot pound rifles.
So, KEEPING TO THE 12 FOOT POUND THEME, which would you rather have for general use, Does not matter for this discussion how much MORE a particualr rifle. or caliber, or weight pellet can get, it's a 12 foot pound question.
YES...I DO AGREE..it's a slam-fest for the .22's and .25's potnential....but the questiopn was ablout 12 foot pound rifles.
.177 = 8gr @ 820 fps
.22 = 14.3gr. @ 610fps
.25 = 20gr. @ 515fps
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No comparison betwqeen .177/22/25?
.177 = 8gr @ 820 fps
.22 = 14.3gr. @ 610fps
.25 = 20gr. @ 515fps
Of course, limited to a measly 12 FPE, the .177 is going to be better.
I'm just glad we don't live in a country that is as oppressed as some of our air gunning brothers!
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So maybe there is some sense to this.
For about 90% of all the backyard/practice shooting I will do on a nearly daily basis, 8gr. at +800fps will cover it easily. Target holes will still cluster nicely, paintballs will splatter, spinners will spin (although won't spin as many times), pest birds will die, and beer bottle caps will "zing" off into the distance.
I would NOT want every PCP to be a 12 foot pound .177...I'd not want every PCP to be a +50 foot pound hammer....to each it's own use, but for quiet/long shot count use in back yard situations, a 12 foot pound .22 makes sense to me.
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So maybe there is some sense to this.
For about 90% of all the backyard/practice shooting I will do on a nearly daily basis, 8gr. at +800fps will cover it easily. Target holes will still cluster nicely, paintballs will splatter, spinners will spin (although won't spin as many times), pest birds will die, and beer bottle caps will "zing" off into the distance.
I would NOT want every PCP to be a 12 foot pound .177...I'd not want every PCP to be a +50 foot pound hammer....to each it's own use, but for quiet/long shot count use in back yard situations, a 12 foot pound .22 makes sense to me.
+1
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12 fpe, 16fpe, 20fpe, 25fpe, 30fpe and up all can be useful in specific applications. One has to evaluate what type of energy will be required for a given task and use the appropriate powered air rifle. Airgunning can be very enjoyable at all power levels if this theory is applied. This being said, accuracy is always king 👑!
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Different tools..different uses. Some times you need a tack-hammer/some times a 16oz roofing hammer...sometimes a sledge hammer........or sometimes you need a micrometer, and sometimes you need a yard stick. Why should airguns be any different?
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I find it interesting that alot of people think wanting more power is strictly an American thing. I wonder how many or our British brothers would opt for more if it was easily/inexpensive to obtain?
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I find it interesting that alot of people think wanting more power is strictly an American thing. I wonder how many or our British brothers would opt for more if it was easily/inexpensive to obtain?
Actually a lot of PCP rifles made in the Uk or Europe are less expensive than what we pay for them here, and high power ones don't cost more, a permit is obtainable (yes, there are some rules to follow - us Illinoians also have to have a firearm owner ID for .22 airguns). So there are easily obtainable, and no more expensive.
But we do things bigger in America! If you drive for twelve hours in Europe, you'd cross at least three countries with different histories and cultures! Drive twelve hours in Texas, and you never leave the state! Being originally from Texas, I assure you things are even BIGGER in Texas! ;D ;D ;D
Spend some time in Europe (I don't mean visit) and you'll get a better understanding.
To get back on track, different power levels for different needs and uses. Nothing wrong with that. Luckily WE have choices!
Cheers
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I find it interesting that alot of people think wanting more power is strictly an American thing. I wonder how many or our British brothers would opt for more if it was easily/inexpensive to obtain?
True, very true. It's not an American thing, it's a personal preference thing & a what can you legally have thing.
So says the guy with a 40 fpe .177 cal while contemplating filling the reservoir with helium for even more power ;D
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I find it interesting that alot of people think wanting more power is strictly an American thing. I wonder how many or our British brothers would opt for more if it was easily/inexpensive to obtain?
Actually a lot of PCP rifles made in the Uk or Europe are less expensive than what we pay for them here, and high power ones don't cost more, a permit is obtainable (yes, there are some rules to follow - us Illinoians also have to have a firearm owner ID for .22 airguns). So there are easily obtainable, and no more expensive.
But we do things bigger in America! If you drive for twelve hours in Europe, you'd cross at least three countries with different histories and cultures! Drive twelve hours in Texas, and you never leave the state! Being originally from Texas, I assure you things are even BIGGER in Texas! ;D ;D ;D
Spend some time in Europe (I don't mean visit) and you'll get a better understanding.
To get back on track, different power levels for different needs and uses. Nothing wrong with that. Luckily WE have choices!
Cheers
I too live in Illinois, have driven across Texas both north-south and east-west and lived in Germany between 2003 and 2008. I can say with certainty that getting high power anything there is not simple or cheap. As far as Illinois goes if it is larger than .177 you only need a FOID card if it exceeds 700fps. And I also agree that 12fps is plenty for most uses but choices are always great.
Brian
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And I also agree that 12fps is plenty for most uses but choices are always great.
Brian
+1
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I am a power convert thanks to GTA.
When I got started I was thinking "Bigger is Better" and fell into the FPS hype on the box being most important of airgun stats. I might still be there if it wasn't for what I have learned here and from my own experiance.
Then I got my FWB 300S (yes a Springer) and learned there is something truly amazing in watching your pellet fly right to the point you aimed.
In my book accuracy is now king, not power. And it is well under the 12fpe.
Enter my PCP's I have an Air Arms S400 that is an FAC gun. BUT it is adjustable output by turning a knob... not a gimick, it actually works.
You get about 60-80 shots on low power and 30-40 on high. The low end delivers about 600 fps, the high about 920 fps (.22 cal.)
So with a 15g pellet that is at 12 fpe when set on low power and it is deadly accurate out 30-40 yards while I consistently get over 70 shots.
That is where I use it MOST and it never fails to put a smile on my face.
Now if I were out and a Wood Chuck came into the danger zone, it is a nice feature to turn the knob and lay the smack down on him... :D
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For a .177, 12 foot pounds is a pretty good energy level for most folks everyday shooting/practice sessions.
Do believe in power and larger clibers where needed, but when it's not needed it just complicates a practice session with lower shot counts (less time actually shooting), more noise, a heavier safe backstop.
For the same reasons that a tool box is not full of nothing but hammers, your airgun collection should also be geared to a wider range of choices.
+1
I too am a fan of accuracy over power however I do keep my .25 Vulcan slinging 34gr JSBs around 865-870 fps for the right jobs as we get a few Coyote,Fox,Coon etc... However as Manny has proven to us all ...accuracy is key and lesser calibers can do the work as well. In closing I'd like to further back the point that power is pointless without precision. My .02
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Then I got my FWB 300S (yes a Springer) and learned there is something truly amazing in watching your pellet fly right to the point you aimed.
Me too! and it's easier to see a .25 pellet than a .177! lol ;D Plus, hearing the THWACK of the big pellet hitting its target is very satisfying. 8)
No argument that Air Guns are definitely weapons of PRECISION. Virtually none of them have the power of a lowly .22LR. If a small animal has either a .177 or .25 pellet go through its brain, it's going to die. Trading accuracy for power is always a bad deal for air guns.
THAT being said... Have you ever held a .177 pellet next to a .25? It's like comparing a .22LR to a 40 S&W!
If there is no trade-off in accuracy... it's a no-brainer to use the larger caliber for hunting. They offer far better downrange power/ballistics, and fewer crawl/fly offs.
Good Luck!
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I guess I would have to classify myself as a frugal air gunner. I will tend toward the lowest power that will get the job done without waste.
Most of my shooting is with .177 rifles at varying power levels for the task at hand. For pesting I will step up a power level. 12 fpe is plenty. More for heart/lung shots because I want and entry and an exit for more blood loss. But just enough power to not hurt anything downrange. Less for brain shots as a pass through isn't necessary.
I do have a dedicated 50 fpe .25 for raccoons that rip up my roof trying to get into my attic. I am glad none tried this year. But the .25 does it eat up air fast!
I've skipped .22 because the .177's will do 98% of what I need. The .25 will dispatch a raccoon and when I want to have fun and authoritatively smack targets!
I took a heart/lung shot at a squirrel once with my 24 fpe .25 XS28 and it instantaneously devastated the squirrel. He fell out of the tree and was dead before he hit the ground! A .177 will do the job but a bowling ball is in a different league! lol I still prefer to use the .177 for pretty much everything.
Taso
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Taso, your reasoning on a .22 is why my only .20's are vintage Sheridans.
But I also have a fondness for an HW in .20.... maybe someday.
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GOD!!!
I need a chrony!!!
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They truth of most MSP's, even resealed healhty Sheridans is that they can manage 12-12.6 foot pounds with a typical 7 pump fill. The "steroid" versions can manage more energy for more pumps.
I grew up with shots rifles (along with Benjamin 312's and 342's...the standard verions...and really don;t see aperoblem shooting small game (birds-tree squirrel-to rabbits) with that power level inside of 40 yards...which is a "far piece" for an open sight airgun and prerty well requires "young eyes".
Rather than thinking that PCP power plant makes a difference (it doesn't), a stable shooting 12 foot pounds will do all the things that a Sheridan "C" can do...do them better ecause the ease of scope mounting...and kill the same critters your grandfathers/fathers killed/ate.
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My hunting is done with .25 cal Air Force Talon with modified valve that puts out up to 71 foot pounds with the Eun Jinn 44 grain pellet. I normally use the JSB 33.95 King Heavies and achieve about 61 foot pounds of energy. I hunt ground squirrel, rabbit, pigeon, dove out to 100+ yards. With the .25 I get more power out to the target, and much more lethality. Shooting a 12 fpe .177 hunting in real world conditions out to 50 yards is chancy at best. If you're head shotting at 50 yards every time with a .177, then you know your rifle and windage adjustments much better then I. Occasionally a pellet drifts up, down, left OR right for any number of reasons and at distance, with a .177 at 12 fpe, your quarry will run off. I have seen ground squirrels with multiple .30 rounds taken in the body run to a hole.
With the larger, heavier pellets, more of the actual energy is carried out to distance and the wound channel and initial impact much deadlier.
Don't get me wrong, I've seen plenty of videos of those European guys and their 12 fpe rifles at 10 yards in a blind take squirrels off a feeder at 10-15 yards, or take pigeons out of a tree at 20 yards and rabbits out to 30-40, but I don't see 12 fpe guns taking down squirrels or rabbits at 70+ yards, 80+ yards or in much wind.
I've always been interested in the discussion of which caliber is better, but for hunting or pesting, bigger is ALWAYS better, pending shooting conditions and laws, of course...
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Yep...have a few +50 foot pound PCPs in various calibers. Wonderful airguns for when the cirtters are big or the critters are far way.
Not so wonderful when the targets are close or the targets are small. Will certainly do the job, but wont do the job any better than that 12 foot pound .177 that gives 4-5X the shot count.
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Just for comparison. A .22 long rifle standard velocity 40 grain is +100 FPE. A .22 CB long or short (Cap and Ball - no gun powder) 29 grain is 32 FPE. If I wanted more power, I would just use a rimfire as it is more economical. CBs are very quiet in a long barrel. Otherwise, 12 FPE PCP has its place for plinking, target shooting and competition with high shot count and accuracy.
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I forgot to clarify in my reply above that I've never shot over 20 yards. I only pest in my back yard and stalk as close as I can.
So that will explain why .177 is the most useful to me in my situation.
If I had to shoot longer ranges I would have to retest for the best setup. So in that situation, the .177 would most likely get replaced with a .22.
.177 does not perform better than the larger calibers at longer ranges. There are some recent developments with slug shooting .17 caliber rifles that I'm very excited to see how they perform and if they can be replicated economically. My fingers are crossed!
Thank you,
Taso
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Lets put the .22LR rimfire in perspective. It can manage 100 foot pounds at 100yards...a yard stick that small bore airguns really can't match (and few bit-bore airguns can match)..
As airgunner's...we are better off not invoking even .22 RF ballistics as comparisons.
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Another reason people choose air rifles is that in many communities it is illegal to discharge firearms. In Illinois, any air rifle that is larger caliber than .177 inches and faster than 700 fps is considered a firearm.
Taso
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Another reason people choose air rifles is that in many communities it is illegal to discharge firearms. In Illinois, any air rifle that is larger caliber than .177 inches and faster than 700 fps is considered a firearm.
Taso
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Have you ever seen a proper smallbore solid firing airrifle?
DZ sinner Will put most .22lr to shame.. And is a .224
Advancements in solid firing AG are mainly in the smallest calibers I've noticed more and more start projects in .224 and .257 and am well impressed with the accuracy and power.
I think if you really want long range accuracy with air you should forget about pellets altogether because your rifle can never be more accurate then your ammo and focus on the smallbore solid's
You will however need a platform capable of producing the power..
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As I remember the DZ....it translates into something like $3800-$4000 US dollars (and are often shot tethered). IF I ever win the lottery, promise to test one....but if I'm going to be fair, would have to test it against a $4000 .22RF.
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Yeah the dz is really expensive but a PCP is a much more complicated gun to a boltaction RF and you pay for custom work and continuous development nothing mass produced,everything is custom made on these.
However you don't need to spend that much to get a .224 or .257
I've seen projects based upon edgun r3 long,AF condor,bsa Scorpio and even a SPA so as long as your willing to tinker and rebarrel there are multiple options,the daystate airranger 80 also shoots .224
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I read this thread with a lot of interest. I admit, my Gamo Hornet that shot over 1000fps got me into "adult" airguns, much mo'power than my old Powerline 880 so it has to be great, right? It served its purpose and along with a ton of reading on this forum, I discovered the marketing gimmicks of crazy FPS.
When I got into PCP's, I shot heavier pellets to bring the speed down until I learned how to do some basic tuning. While it isn't exactly 12fpe, my Maximus now spits out the CPHP 7.9's at about 13-13.5fpe. Dropping the speed really helped on the accuracy with the cheap pellets and I can start at 1800psi and shoot 50 shots down to about 1000 psi.
I personally have no need for anything more powerful than that, plus learning to read and compensate for the wind and terrain translate directly to when I shoot my PB's.