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Support Equipment For PCP/HPA/CO2 and springers ,rams => Scopes And Optics Gate => Topic started by: stevrom828 on February 23, 2018, 01:52:27 PM
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Could anyone please convince me of why I should own a first focal plane scope next to Second focal plane? I've been hearing a lot about people switching over to the first focal plane scopes and understand the difference between the two but could anyone please explain to me the pros and cons with both and which would be better for the applications I am using them for??
It will be mounted on a 357 Slayer. I love punching paper and shooting my gongs out to about 270 yards but I also hunt small game and large game. Squirrel on up to whitetail.
The two scopes on my list are either the Athlon Midas BTR 2.5-15x50 or the Athlon Ares BTR 2.5-15x50. Thank you very much in advance!
Steve'O
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Here the process I used for pesting with a second focal scope:
- Memorize (distance, zoom, hold over) range card. In my case, I would use 4x for really close targets, and 12x for targets further away to reduce the amount of information that I would have to retain. In other words, I would use my zoom as two fixed scopes in one.jjj
- Determine distance to target
- Double check or set zoom appropriate for target. Checking in low light may not be possible, hence I only used the low and high end range of my scope.
- Aim with hold over that I previously memorized.
- Pull trigger, happy dance, retrieve
With a first focal plane scope, sub-tensions are independent of zoom range, so for step 1, I only need to memorize (distance, hold over). Step 3, checking the zoom setting is no longer needed (and can be challenging at low light), so I look through the scope, and optionally adjust the zoom range. In practice this means I save a step at a crucial point in time, or if I have the luxury of time, I can dial in zoom setting that gives me the optimal sight picture and nothing else changes.
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FFP seems all the rage now. It is a great concept but I have some reservations. Airgunners typically shoot at very small targets. As you zoom in the reticle features become bigger and bolder. Lines may be so fat that your target is obscured. My best scope has a target dot. If that dot would grow 15-fold I would not be able to see a 1 inch target at 40 yards.
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That 1" target grows HUGE when you increase the mag x so not much is obscured IMO
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That 1" target grows HUGE when you increase the mag x so not much is obscured IMO
Well, the dot is really small but at 3x and I can barely see the outer edges of the target. Which means, with FFP at 15x it would be the same.
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I am not selling anything so whatever floats your boat. For rabbits and squirrels, I have no issue with the the center cross hair reticle (on my Athlon Helos 6-24x50 APMR FFP IR MIL) being too thin (at low magnification) or too thick (at 16x which is about upper range of what I use). If your primary use case is punching paper at long range, yeah, then you want to select a scope optimized for that (i.e. very high magnification and probably a second focal scope).
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Here the process I used for pesting with a second focal scope:
- Memorize (distance, zoom, hold over) range card. In my case, I would use 4x for really close targets, and 12x for targets further away to reduce the amount of information that I would have to retain. In other words, I would use my zoom as two fixed scopes in one.jjj
- Determine distance to target
- Double check or set zoom appropriate for target. Checking in low light may not be possible, hence I only used the low and high end range of my scope.
- Aim with hold over that I previously memorized.
- Pull trigger, happy dance, retrieve
With a first focal plane scope, sub-tensions are independent of zoom range, so for step 1, I only need to memorize (distance, hold over). Step 3, checking the zoom setting is no longer needed (and can be challenging at low light), so I look through the scope, and optionally adjust the zoom range. In practice this means I save a step at a crucial point in time, or if I have the luxury of time, I can dial in zoom setting that gives me the optimal sight picture and nothing else changes.
Allen. This is a great way to manage a SFP:) as I'm usually using my mag at 20x (half mil hawke sidewinder) when hunting beyond 100yds for accurate readings and 10x when engaging targets that are closer.
I need to make a range card! I tend to shoot so much as soon as spring comes that I've memorized my hold over/under out to about 200yds with the 20x half mil on my sidewinder. I just keep hearing about more and more switching to Front focal plane that I want to know what all the fuss is about I guess..
Taxes are coming and I have a little bit to play with and I've decided on a nice scope with better glass than what I've got
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I am not selling anything so whatever floats your boat. For rabbits and squirrels, I have no issue with the the center cross hair reticle (on my Athlon Helos 6-24x50 APMR FFP IR MIL) being too thin (at low magnification) or too thick (at 16x which is about upper range of what I use). If your primary use case is punching paper at long range, yeah, then you want to select a scope optimized for that (i.e. very high magnification and probably a second focal scope).
So basically no one really uses the Front Focal Plane scopes for target shooting I'm assuming? (Field Target or HFT)
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FFP seems all the rage now. It is a great concept but I have some reservations. Airgunners typically shoot at very small targets. As you zoom in the reticle features become bigger and bolder. Lines may be so fat that your target is obscured. My best scope has a target dot. If that dot would grow 15-fold I would not be able to see a 1 inch target at 40 yards.
Christian.. If the reticle grows to the point "during increased magnification" where it becomes "in the way" or it's obscuring your target whether it be game, small or big then why are so many long distance shooters using FFP glass? BTW Thank you all for the help and answering my questions👍
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Here is a good comparison, and informative video on FFP vs. SFP scopes.
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Here is a good comparison, and informative video on FFP vs. SFP scopes.
https://tacticalclassroom.com/first-focal-plane-vs-second-focal-plane/
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I decided FFP was not for me. Typically I utilize my scopes, even the variable ones, like a fixed power (mostly 7X) while hunting and rarely change them. Chairgun is used to calculate holdover with the pellet of choice, and I carry a range card in the field for when I might be shooting longer distances. I found it more difficult to use Chairgun to calculate the holdover with the FFP scope and since I don't change the magnification in the field, there was no advantage to FFP. Unfortunately my FFP scope sits in it's box in the gun room and I don't use it.
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"...why are so many long distance shooters using FFP ..."
I am by no means an expert on this topic. My reasoning is this: if the target is very small, as it commonly is with mainstream air rifles, then a FFP scope may not be the best choice. Extreme example: would you use a FFP at Extreme Benchrest? Your target is half inch at 75 or 100 yards. You need fine reticle markings for your best aim. Similar situation for a squirrel at that distance. But if you're hunting elk with a 308 at 300 yards or more, that's a very different story.
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Here is a good comparison, and informative video on FFP vs. SFP scopes.
I'm going to check this out. Thank you;)
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Oh and here is Cedric AKA TooFaz4U shooting ground squirrels at long range with a FFP Scope.
https://youtu.be/LrZK5RQYFyM?t=437
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These days I shoot at rats at 25-35 yards, and sometimes poke holes in paper. I have a bunch of regular old Leapers sights, one very sweet SWFA and now I have one BSA FFP sight I so love. At first I thought I had a reticle for the blind, then I realized at 59 my eyesight is not getting any better and wait a minute, this thing is awesome. If my wife weren’t following me around looking at my airgun gear with an eagle eye, I’d order another.
Since most of my shooting is at night I now appreciate that reticle for the blind. The SWFA is so bright and sharp, but good grief do I ever struggle with seeing that super fine reticle.
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I like the FFP for hunting, one range card for drop regardless of scope power settings. going from 4-14 power it same for mil hold over/under. Plus if I miss and see where the pellet hits, I can use mils under/over and too adjust my POI or adjust the scope turrets the correct amount of clicks regardless of range/power settings.
There are two scopes I like a lot for my Slayer, the Hawk Frontier FFP 3-15×50 Mil Ext, and the Athlon Midas TAC 4-16×44 Model has APRS2 first focal plane MIL reticle.
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Been eyeballin this discussion a while now & thought I'd drop my 2 lead pennies in the pool.
FFP scopes although all the rage right now are not for everyone, and they do have limitations as opposed to SFP scopes of similar size and magnification.
First pro, as regards magnification, both the target and the reticle increase in size equally when you zoom in with a FFP scope. So the reticle always covers the exact same area the target regardless of magnification setting. So it's not possible to have the reticle grow so large that it obscures the target. Another pro as regards magnification in FFP optics is that using them to establish your targets range is a lot easier than using SFP.
One thing I know I can do with a variable magnification SFP scope that's at best difficult to do with a FFP scope is that I can use the dots or hash marks as quick reference points to adjust for hold over or under on the fly, whatever the magnification it's set to. This is extremely handy in a hunting scenario where you have a good idea of the range between you and your target. Since the dots don't move with magnification (or I should say shouldn't move with magnification) once you have done your homework on the range and know where on the reticle a pellet will land on the target at a given range, simply hold that spot on target and watch the impact. This isn't always the best way to get the utmost pinpoint precision out of the SFP but it works for instances where time or opportunity is limited and can be very effective.
What it all boils down to is really a matter of preference and suitability to the intended application. Do you need a FFP scope? Probably not. Shooters have gotten by quite well with SFP optics for decades. Still do, that's not going to change. My advice to those that think they want to dive into the world of FFP optics is definitely try before you buy. That way you know what to expect and whether or not they are suited to you and your needs.
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I like the FFP for hunting, one range card for drop regardless of scope power settings. going from 4-14 power it same for mil hold over/under. Plus if I miss and see where the pellet hits, I can use mils under/over and too adjust my POI or adjust the scope turrets the correct amount of clicks regardless of range/power settings.
There are two scopes I like a lot for my Slayer, the Hawk Frontier FFP 3-15×50 Mil Ext, and the Athlon Midas TAC 4-16×44 Model has APRS2 first focal plane MIL reticle.
Randy.. I didn't know the Midas was available in FFP! I want some good glass. I ordered a Hawk frontier but was sent the target dot version by mistake and sent it back:/ Glass was very crisp though. Much better than my sidewinder by a decent margin!
Wait.. Hawk makes the Frontier in FFP also? My apologies if this is well known btw